Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

"LCA Mk II in the interim"
A plane that can easily replace three existing models in the IAF menagerie.
Maybe he meant
"LCA Mk I, the AMCA, LCA Mk II in the interim "
If so what is his final state?
MkII is before AMCA. so even here his order of things is erroneous.
I think MRFA is on the mind.

Quite a tepid endorsement.
Does he read newspapers and see what is happening in Europe?
Western Europe's re-armament is on the table.
They don't have mfg capability.
That means they will buy US planes etc.
So even if you pay good money India will be far back in the queue.
So stop being a kid and plan for the force inventory.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, he got the order wrong alright....but I believe even he is aware that the AMCA is not coming before Tejas Mk2. For him, the long run plan is AMCA. And again, as per him...the interim aircraft will be the Mk1 and Mk2. I believe the reality has hit home - no AMCA without Tejas Mk2. From the little blurb that he said, I am seeing a glimmer of hope. Keeping my fingers crossed.

His exact words were (starts at 15:55 in the video) ---> "The fighter strength, first of all, is going to get augmented with the LCA Mk1A, for which the contract was signed two years ago. We are hoping for delivery sometime next year. In the long run, for the indigenious platform, we have placed our confidence and faith in the AMCA project and in the interim, the LCA Mk2. So these are the indigenious products."
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

So true :lol:

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... jS0zCVBFtg ---> If AESA equipped Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 can fire ASRAAM, Derby-ER, R-73E, Python, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and future Mk3 with SFDR...along with Hammer, JDAM, Rudram 1 and future Brahmos-NG...what is the use of inducting another seven squadrons worth of MRFAs that won't fire all the above?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:So true :lol:

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... jS0zCVBFtg ---> If AESA equipped Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 can fire ASRAAM, Derby-ER, R-73E, Python, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and future Mk3 with SFDR...along with Hammer, JDAM, Rudram 1 and future Brahmos-NG...what is the use of inducting another seven squadrons worth of MRFAs that won't fire all the above?
aye admiral ., so that we can continue to buy their western equivalents .. meteor JDAM AMRAAM :mrgreen: etc
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Why you need Meteor and AMRAAM, when Astra Mk2, Mk3 and SFDR can do the same thing for cheaper?

JDAM integration is a good thing. Even a future AMRAAM and Meteor integration as well. Good for foreign customers.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7878&start=240#p2544795
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by titash »

Rakesh wrote:Why you need Meteor and AMRAAM, when Astra Mk2, Mk3 and SFDR can do the same thing for cheaper?

JDAM integration is a good thing. Even a future AMRAAM and Meteor integration as well. Good for foreign customers.
Diversification or Second-Sourcing is actually a solid de-risking as well as cost-reduction strategy

Buying a mix of Russian + French + Indian (US Engine) planes and sensor/weapon packages means that:

1) All the big fish have a finger in the pie and can benefit from missteps or geopolitical events. It also ensures that their economies and jobs are somewhat tied to your strategies & priorities. they won't overtly piss you off

2) Black swan events like coronavirus and Ukraine-Russia don't crater 100% of your operational availability via supply chain disruptions

3) Ensures a (parallel) backup plan against the failure of ambitious customized programs (e.g. LCA Mk1 thrust not enough / bird too heavy; SS-N-19 missiles on Kirov class not working hence SS-N-12 for Slava class)

4) Ensures early introduction of transformational capabilities e.g. Meteor while domestic alternatives are still cooking
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

titash wrote:Diversification or Second-Sourcing is actually a solid de-risking as well as cost-reduction strategy

Buying a mix of Russian + French + Indian (US Engine) planes and sensor/weapon packages means that:

1) All the big fish have a finger in the pie and can benefit from missteps or geopolitical events. It also ensures that their economies and jobs are somewhat tied to your strategies & priorities. they won't overtly piss you off

2) Black swan events like coronavirus and Ukraine-Russia don't crater 100% of your operational availability via supply chain disruptions

3) Ensures a (parallel) backup plan against the failure of ambitious customized programs (e.g. LCA Mk1 thrust not enough / bird too heavy; SS-N-19 missiles on Kirov class not working hence SS-N-12 for Slava class)

4) Ensures early introduction of transformational capabilities e.g. Meteor while domestic alternatives are still cooking
All valid points titash, but I was referring to local maal vs phoren maal (French, American, Israeli, Russian or whoever else). I firmly believe that MBDA will offer Meteor integration when the second batch of Mk1As (with Uttam AESA) come on board. AMRAAM integration is equally good, if offered. But the long term focus should be to get away from phoren platforms completely. In the short term, you are correct. I agree with you.

Any geopolitical event can be withstood and overcome when your armed forces have complete local maal aka Atmanirbhar Bharat. We have a long way to go for that though, but we will get there.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote:His exact words were (starts at 15:55 in the video) ---> "The fighter strength, first of all, is going to get augmented with the LCA Mk1A, for which the contract was signed two years ago. We are hoping for delivery sometime next year. In the long run, for the indigenious platform, we have placed our confidence and faith in the AMCA project and in the interim, the LCA Mk2. So these are the indigenious products."
Quite a sad choice of words. Its as if the Mk2 is an after-thought. Everyone's initial suspicions were right. He dreams of the MRFA and is reluctantly waking up to the reality of Mk2. I hope the next chief is more Atmanirbhar friendly.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ i will take it as a +ve, the mk 2 finally got a mention. let the bird fly...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Indranil wrote:
Roop wrote: Does dog-fighting even matter any more, these days? (This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be funny).
When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
Can't say that unless it is a joke that I'm taking too seriously. Too many variables here especially with large force engagements - relative performance of radars and missiles, BVR tactics and pilot skills, EW capability, relative situational awareness with availability of AWACS and blind luck. BVR is the future. Best not to take Feb 27 as our only example where there were several other factors involved. Even there we did not see any actual 1971 style "dogfights" with aircraft attempting to outturn or outclimb each other. It was a result of better positioning and tactics employed which resulted in WingCo Abhinandan being in the right place and time to intercept and shootdown the F-16. Otherwise by the same measure (as the LCA Mk2 and Mig-29 comparison), the F-16 with its FBW, far better T:W ratio, turn radius and excellent cockpit visibility should have never been shot down.

tldr; there is no actual mission that the Mig-29 is capable of performing better than the Mk2 by virtue of its better T:W ratio when it is vastly inferior on every other count. The IAF never had any issues with the WVR performance of the Mirage-2000 which has a similar T:W ratio as the Tejas Mk2. The M2k's woefully limited and obsolete BVR capability however was a much bigger problem till it got upgraded. Today if say there is a 4-ship formation of F-16's flying towards the border that needs to be intercepted and you have the option of vectoring either 4 M2k's or 4 Mig-29's towards them (but not both) which would you choose?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Atmavik wrote:^^^ i will take it as a +ve, the mk 2 finally got a mention. let the bird fly...
Hope so. What's obvious is the big disconnect from the way the PMO (& us) think vs the way the IAF thinks. The Tejas-MK2 is not an *interim* solution. It *IS* the centre-piece of our future squadron strength. The Chief calling it interim is like calling the No. 3 batsman as an interim between the top-order and the lower-order batsmen!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sanjayc »

^^ After AMCA, IAF will latch on to "Super AMCA" and AMCA will be declared an interim solution. IAF generals are always chasing two birds in the bush while letting go of the one in hand. They will never buy something that is immediately available but will keep waiting for the next big thing (even as squadron strength keeps going down). It will take another decade of Modi rule for IAF's import addiction to come down.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote: When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
Can't say that unless it is a joke that I'm taking too seriously. Too many variables here especially with large force engagements - relative performance of radars and missiles, BVR tactics and pilot skills, EW capability, relative situational awareness with availability of AWACS and blind luck. BVR is the future. Best not to take Feb 27 as our only example where there were several other factors involved. Even there we did not see any actual 1971 style "dogfights" with aircraft attempting to outturn or outclimb each other. It was a result of better positioning and tactics employed which resulted in WingCo Abhinandan being in the right place and time to intercept and shootdown the F-16. Otherwise by the same measure (as the LCA Mk2 and Mig-29 comparison), the F-16 with its FBW, far better T:W ratio, turn radius and excellent cockpit visibility should have never been shot down.

tldr; there is no actual mission that the Mig-29 is capable of performing better than the Mk2 by virtue of its better T:W ratio when it is vastly inferior on every other count. The IAF never had any issues with the WVR performance of the Mirage-2000 which has a similar T:W ratio as the Tejas Mk2. The M2k's woefully limited and obsolete BVR capability however was a much bigger problem till it got upgraded. Today if say there is a 4-ship formation of F-16's flying towards the border that needs to be intercepted and you have the option of vectoring either 4 M2k's or 4 Mig-29's towards them (but not both) which would you choose?
Once the MiG-29s get Astra, they might be better in long range BVR too, especially if there is no AWACS support. It out ranges the Mica niftily. As things stand both the Zhuk radar and the EW suite ordered for the Fulcrum (so late in the day, shows IAFs confused priorities) are more powerful than that on the Mirage.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:His exact words were (starts at 15:55 in the video) ---> "The fighter strength, first of all, is going to get augmented with the LCA Mk1A, for which the contract was signed two years ago. We are hoping for delivery sometime next year. In the long run, for the indigenious platform, we have placed our confidence and faith in the AMCA project and in the interim, the LCA Mk2. So these are the indigenious products."
Quite a sad choice of words. Its as if the Mk2 is an after-thought. Everyone's initial suspicions were right. He dreams of the MRFA and is reluctantly waking up to the reality of Mk2. I hope the next chief is more Atmanirbhar friendly.
I would say that, don't go too deep into his choice of words. What he meant was that the AMCA is the ultimate goal, being 5th gen, and in the interim there is the Tejas Mk2 to bridge the gap. There is simply no doubt that it will be ordered in significant numbers because the AMCA will be seen as the only 5th gen type in the IAF and a Su-30MKI replacement somewhere down the line. That still leaves large numbers of Jaguars, MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000Is to be replaced in the 2030s. Even after replacing those types, the IAF won't be able to bulk up to 42 squadrons or even close. For that, the most affordable and sensible option will be the Tejas Mk2.

Just the fact that he mentioned it *ON HIS OWN* without having Nitin Gokhale bring it up, means a lot to me. It is now confirmed as being part of the fleet renewal plans. That's what matters. Numbers will come because it will be the most affordable type and by 2028 Tejas Mk1A production will be almost done, so the focus will shift to the Tejas Mk2 with AMCA being in flight tests. The onus is really on ADA, HAL and all the production/development/test agencies now. HAL will have to do it's best to get the Mk2 ready for production by 2029. Else the MRFA will start to eat into it's orders.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Karan M wrote:
nachiket wrote: Can't say that unless it is a joke that I'm taking too seriously. Too many variables here especially with large force engagements - relative performance of radars and missiles, BVR tactics and pilot skills, EW capability, relative situational awareness with availability of AWACS and blind luck. BVR is the future. Best not to take Feb 27 as our only example where there were several other factors involved. Even there we did not see any actual 1971 style "dogfights" with aircraft attempting to outturn or outclimb each other. It was a result of better positioning and tactics employed which resulted in WingCo Abhinandan being in the right place and time to intercept and shootdown the F-16. Otherwise by the same measure (as the LCA Mk2 and Mig-29 comparison), the F-16 with its FBW, far better T:W ratio, turn radius and excellent cockpit visibility should have never been shot down.

tldr; there is no actual mission that the Mig-29 is capable of performing better than the Mk2 by virtue of its better T:W ratio when it is vastly inferior on every other count. The IAF never had any issues with the WVR performance of the Mirage-2000 which has a similar T:W ratio as the Tejas Mk2. The M2k's woefully limited and obsolete BVR capability however was a much bigger problem till it got upgraded. Today if say there is a 4-ship formation of F-16's flying towards the border that needs to be intercepted and you have the option of vectoring either 4 M2k's or 4 Mig-29's towards them (but not both) which would you choose?
Once the MiG-29s get Astra, they might be better in long range BVR too, especially if there is no AWACS support. It out ranges the Mica niftily. As things stand both the Zhuk radar and the EW suite ordered for the Fulcrum (so late in the day, shows IAFs confused priorities) are more powerful than that on the Mirage.
I sincerely hope that the IAF is looking into the possibility of putting the Uttam AESA into the MiG-29 as well, apart from the Su-30MKI. Simply put, the difference between the MSA Zhuk and AESA Uttam will be night and day. Was just reading Paul Tremelling's Hushkit interview on the Super Hornet and his description of how impressive the AESA APG-79 is versus MSA APG-73 was rather illuminating.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote: When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
Can't say that unless it is a joke that I'm taking too seriously. Too many variables here especially with large force engagements - relative performance of radars and missiles, BVR tactics and pilot skills, EW capability, relative situational awareness with availability of AWACS and blind luck. BVR is the future. Best not to take Feb 27 as our only example where there were several other factors involved. Even there we did not see any actual 1971 style "dogfights" with aircraft attempting to outturn or outclimb each other. It was a result of better positioning and tactics employed which resulted in WingCo Abhinandan being in the right place and time to intercept and shootdown the F-16. Otherwise by the same measure (as the LCA Mk2 and Mig-29 comparison), the F-16 with its FBW, far better T:W ratio, turn radius and excellent cockpit visibility should have never been shot down.
It was not a joke. I am not reading too much into the Feb27 incident.

Both us and our adversaries are getting better at BVR. In equipment, training and tactics. Without BVR capability you are at serious disadvantage. But if all the parties are BVR capable, then the end-game will be WVR.
nachiket wrote: tldr; there is no actual mission that the Mig-29 is capable of performing better than the Mk2 by virtue of its better T:W ratio when it is vastly inferior on every other count. The IAF never had any issues with the WVR performance of the Mirage-2000 which has a similar T:W ratio as the Tejas Mk2. The M2k's woefully limited and obsolete BVR capability however was a much bigger problem till it got upgraded. Today if say there is a 4-ship formation of F-16's flying towards the border that needs to be intercepted and you have the option of vectoring either 4 M2k's or 4 Mig-29's towards them (but not both) which would you choose?
1. In Kargil, Mig29s escorted the Mk2s, not other Mk2s. What does that tell us?
2. Regarding your question, I would send the Mig29s armed with Astra. Without doubt.
3. And Kartik is right. Mig29s equipped with Uttam radars and Astras will be an absolute beast.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bala »

Mig29s equipped with Uttam radars and Astras will be an absolute beast.
India & Russia are currently the end users of Mig29. India can MKI'ize the Mig29 (requires Rus permission) and truly make it our own beast. The same can be inducted into the Navy with some weatherizing for Sea handling. Hope we can convince Rus for such a change.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

At the end of the day, Tejas Mk2 will be inducted and the number of Tejas Mk2 squadrons will depend on how much of the 114 Farce will get inducted into the IAF kitty. I personally would like 10-12 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 to be inducted at 20 - 24 aircrafts a year. In addition to that (post 2026), I would wish for 2 - 3 squadrons of Tejas LIFT to support the Tejas fighters. What we will end up is, India strengthening its indigenous A2A / A2G missile family / its Rocket force to deter any threats and buy 36 more Rafles off the shelf. This would be a better utilization of the funds we have.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

YouTube journalists are reporting 300 Mk2 on order.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Once the MiG-29s get Astra, they might be better in long range BVR too, especially if there is no AWACS support. It out ranges the Mica niftily. As things stand both the Zhuk radar and the EW suite ordered for the Fulcrum (so late in the day, shows IAFs confused priorities) are more powerful than that on the Mirage.
I sincerely hope that the IAF is looking into the possibility of putting the Uttam AESA into the MiG-29 as well, apart from the Su-30MKI. Simply put, the difference between the MSA Zhuk and AESA Uttam will be night and day. Was just reading Paul Tremelling's Hushkit interview on the Super Hornet and his description of how impressive the AESA APG-79 is versus MSA APG-73 was rather illuminating.
Agree completely. The IAF should be funding it on priority for both the Su-30 and MiG-29, in marks, with each more advanced than the prior. But then again, the IAF is too dominated by the stick and throttle 80'-90's era guys who are still calling the shots, as versus the rare few TPs.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Indranil wrote: It was not a joke. I am not reading too much into the Feb27 incident.

Both us and our adversaries are getting better at BVR. In equipment, training and tactics. Without BVR capability you are at serious disadvantage. But if all the parties are BVR capable, then the end-game will be WVR.
It can end in WVR, but not necessarily. Even BVR combat involves a lot of offensive and defensive maneuvering with multiple missile shots and you'd want to exhaust most of your BVR missiles by the time you get within dogfighting range. A lot of fuel would have been expended by then too leaving your options for a lengthy dogfight limited.
1. In Kargil, Mig29s escorted the Mk2s, not other Mk2s. What does that tell us?
2. Regarding your question, I would send the Mig29s armed with Astra. Without doubt.
3. And Kartik is right. Mig29s equipped with Uttam radars and Astras will be an absolute beast.
1. Escort and CAP were the only missions Mig-29's were capable of performing during Kargil. So it makes sense to use them for that leaving the M2k's free for precision bombing which no other fighter was capable of (except the Jaguar but they had their own limitations). I am also fairly certain the M2k's were also used as escorts themselves from the stories we have heard (including if I'm not mistaken AM Nambiar's tale of the Tiger hill strike).

2. Your choice of Mig-29's is based on a better BVR weapon (Astra) not their T:W ratio, which is kinda my point. Anyway they do not have the Astra integrated right now and are limited to the R-77.

3. No arguments here. An Uttam AESA equipped Mig-29 would be terrific. I am not holding my breath on seeing it happen though. We don't even have a fully funded Uttam upgrade program for the MKI yet which is far more important.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Karan M wrote: Once the MiG-29s get Astra, they might be better in long range BVR too, especially if there is no AWACS support. It out ranges the Mica niftily. As things stand both the Zhuk radar and the EW suite ordered for the Fulcrum (so late in the day, shows IAFs confused priorities) are more powerful than that on the Mirage.
The Astra would give them an advantage I agree. But the Zhuk radar being better than the RDY is a surprising take for me. Is it just the larger nose diameter that makes you believe that? Also, has the D-29 SPJ been retrofitted to the Mig-29's already? I am a bit confused about its current status. Even that would bring it mostly at par with the M-2000I which also had a new internal SPJ (ICMS) as part of the upgrade.

Anyway the original question was whether the Mig-29's better kinematics would give them an advantage over the Tejas Mk2 which might raise questions about whether the Mk2 can replace it. I still disagree with that. In an ideal world the Tejas Mk2 would replace all our Mirages, Mig-29's and Jaguars with a single type leaving little scope for a foreign MRFA beyond a couple of more Rafale squadrons perhaps. But then we are in India so the opposite is likely to happen.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

Folks orders will come once the bird flies.... Rest is all mayaa onlee...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

V_Raman wrote:Folks orders will come once the bird flies.... Rest is all mayaa onlee...
Tell that to the LCH.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Atmavik »

ramana wrote:YouTube journalists are reporting 300 Mk2 on order.

I take those YouTube channels with a huge bucket of salt. Having said that mk2 will come in numbers
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Pay attention to the number 300.
Also if you know how they get their info you wouldn't be so derisive.
V_Raman can't wait for maya only.
BTW IDRW has their own spin on the interview and as usual claim copy left.*

They steal from Gokhlae's interview and claim copyright to prevent others from quoting them!!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

IIRC, the previous Chief RKS Bhadauria ji made the following different statements in this order as his term progressed:-
1) IAF will buy around 200 Tejas Mk2
2) IAF will buy around 160 Tejas Mk2
3) IAF will buy atleast 120 Tejas Mk2 (This one I'm not sure he said it, but heard this number)
4) IAF will decide the no. of Tejas Mk2 based on the progress of AMCA
----
The current Chief's latest statement is more or less a repetition of previous Chief's last statement...
-
My guess is, the decision to put Tejas Mk2 on the back-seat and push for MRFA in immediate future happened during Bhadauria's tenure itself... And it is not a one man decision, but looks like a decision taken by IAF as an institution...
IAF simply wants to get as many Rafales as possible... And based on that and AMCA's timeline, they'll decide the numbers for Tejas Mk2 so as to fit in the budget...
----
Whatever it is, GOI should take a decision as early as possible regarding MRFA...
They should either
1) order 2 more Rafale squadrons in G2G deal (IAF may not be satisfied)
2) order 4 more Rafale squadrons + 26 for Navy in G2G deal (IAF will be satisfied)
3) move ahead with 6 squadrons of MRFA with Rafale winning it (IAF will be very happy)
-
Whatever may the decision, they need to put an end to this circus... Things shouldn't be left stuck for long...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

If we were to put ourselves in the shoes of the IAF chief or IAF as the institution, MRFA is the one bird in their hand while Tejas is the two in the bush. We will continue to witness this behavior from every IAF chief from here on and till the time the platform matures. So I won't subscribe to the idea that IAF only wants foreign aircrafts but they will buy an Indian aircraft with a strong Defense Minister (if we have to do a Mk1A again) as long as the platform is able to meet their needs. As an organization, IAF (all 3 forces) is yet to mature as an organization to blindly trust a desi aircraft that is yet to fly and at the end of the day, we don't fly or fight but the men in Blue. In the interim, we can expect couple of additional squadrons of Mk1A and 2-4 squadrons of additional Rafale. I am very optimistic that around 2024-25 we will have IAF signing an order with HAL for a significant number of Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by yensoy »

Time to build an Air National Guard under command of a joint service "homeland defence theater" to provide support in numbers. The USAF for instance doesn't technically own any F16s - they all belong to the US Air National Guard. IAF can continue to be the gold plated force but with say only 20 squadrons of aircraft of whatever choice they want. This can be supplemented by Indian Air National Guard operating several hundreds of Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 aircraft, maybe even AMCA.

Nothing will make IAF see things in perspective than bringing in some competition.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

konaseema wrote:If we were to put ourselves in the shoes of the IAF chief or IAF as the institution, MRFA is the one bird in their hand while Tejas is the two in the bush. We will continue to witness this behavior from every IAF chief from here on and till the time the platform matures

Snip....
Thankfully for the IAF the USSR and French don't think the way IAF did. Or else IAF would never get to induct any jet fighters.

Because their own designs would never be matured before the aircraft got inducted into service.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

yensoy wrote:
Nothing will make IAF see things in perspective than bringing in some competition.
In the absence of political whipping nothing will make the IAF see the truth.

The IAF has to be told no more imports.

Fight with what you can get from Indian sources. Unless the political bosses make it clear to the IAF nothing will change.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Tail wagging the dog.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Tanaji »

A more easier option is to give control to Indian Army of ground attack aircraft and use Mk 2 for that purpose. At the risk of reduced payload, the aircraft can be up armoured as well for ground attack variant. Once IA has control of its own assets, the IAF may see reason or be reduced to the size of a 15 squadron airforce for air superiority and CAP purposes.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

How do you know that Indian army will accept mk2 for cas. Have you forgotten the arty and Arjun saga.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Tanaji wrote:A more easier option is to give control to Indian Army of ground attack aircraft and use Mk 2 for that purpose. At the risk of reduced payload, the aircraft can be up armoured as well for ground attack variant. Once IA has control of its own assets, the IAF may see reason or be reduced to the size of a 15 squadron airforce for air superiority and CAP purposes.
The air force will not allow the army to adopt a fixed air wing.

Our babus and politicos cannot think that far. Just not in them.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

Tanaji wrote:A more easier option is to give control to Indian Army of ground attack aircraft and use Mk 2 for that purpose. At the risk of reduced payload, the aircraft can be up armoured as well for ground attack variant. Once IA has control of its own assets, the IAF may see reason or be reduced to the size of a 15 squadron airforce for air superiority and CAP purposes.
Unless IAF planning war with Uganda, there is absolutely no room for role like ground attack (i.e ground troop support attack) of yesteryear. The Stinger class missile will make mincemeat of any aircraft, including the old A10.

Ground attack will be by
1. LR precision rockets
2. Loitering munitions
3. Ground launched SR missiles (Nag ...)
4. precision guided weapons against fixed coordinates or moving tgt by fixed/rotating wing crafts.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Tanaji »

Sorry, by ground attack, I did mean the above itself. It will give IA organic options for CAS but will never happen as Rakesh said. We only have the ruckus about attack helicopters as precedent.

If it does happen fully expect IA GSQR to transform mk2 into a A10, with the flying characteristics of Rafale, stealth of F22 and networking of F35 with a mid project GSQR change to have NGAD features.

Anyways all the above is moot.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kakarat »

Is there any ARMY flying Fixed Wing CAS?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by brar_w »

Depends on how one defines fixed wing CAS. The US Army has, and continues to upgrade, its inventory of Gray Eagles and GE-ER's and will probably also pick up the Mojave drone in the coming years. They are equipped with sensors, networking and attack payloads, to both direct close in fire, and perform CAS using Hellfire and possibly other payloads (like Hatchet). True to form, the US Air Force tried to kill the Gray Eagle and its planned US Army acquisition but the effort survived the inter-service battle and the US Army has bought nearly 300 of them over the years.

One can also argue that the USMC is basically the US Navy's Army and they have their own fixed wing Air Force ;).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Pratyush wrote:
konaseema wrote:If we were to put ourselves in the shoes of the IAF chief or IAF as the institution, MRFA is the one bird in their hand while Tejas is the two in the bush. We will continue to witness this behavior from every IAF chief from here on and till the time the platform matures

Snip....
Thankfully for the IAF the USSR and French don't think the way IAF did. Or else IAF would never get to induct any jet fighters.

Because their own designs would never be matured before the aircraft got inducted into service.
Doesn't work that way. The USSR, French, Americans, Brits and Swedes (!) had decades of military aviation development to bank upon. Their Air Forces knew what their industries were capable of. Which in turn happened because they built up their industries due to conflicts such as WW2 or the Cold War, during which visionary political and military leaders understood the value of military technology and how it had to be assiduously built up.

Our military leadership has for too long had the easy way out- demand imports from other nations since indigenous options were not readily available. And with USSR and Russia it was also at rather affordable prices, which killed the incentive to develop locally and which is also the reason we have such a large percentage of our Armed forces of Russian origin. Things are changing now. A decade from now, there will be no pilot who'd have made his way to the top who wouldn't know how good Tejas/LCH/ALH/LUH, etc. are.

The Russia-Ukraine war is also opening eyes everywhere. It is now crystal clear that if India is not almost self-reliant when it comes to weapons, we are in for a lot of trouble going forward, given the possibility of a collusive China-Pak threat and the likelihood of Russia acting neutral or even tilting towards the Chinese.
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