Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Sep 2019 21:08

Karan M wrote:As far as crazy articles go, the above is a prime example and given the authors recent predilection in pushing F-16s for MMRCA, one may well ask what were his motives?
....
In short, the above article is just a pile of crock.

Excellent post Karan Saar! +108 to you. Well said.

There can be no AMCA without Tejas Mk2. And there can be no Tejas Mk2 without Tejas Mk1A. And there can be no Tejas Mk1A without Tejas Mk1. It is a process. You do not jump to stealth right away. If that was the case, why is China struggling with J-20 (xerox copying) and J-15 (reverse engineering)? Think about that.

Some on this forum never wanted to see Tejas Mk2 come online. How can F-16 and F-18 join the IAF then?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174615885681545216 ---> It has become very easy to be a dalal of late. Just wave a right-wing flag and then peddle your Dalal agenda of this import or that.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Sep 2019 21:10

Click on the link below and read this twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174628955460005888 ---> The case for the Tejas Mk-2 MWF and the AMCA have been made by me several times. Not only have I written extensively on ADA's key projects @delhidefence has also carried analyses of the same from different authos . Let me just compile them in this thread.

Tweet below is in response to tweet above ^^^

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174633973516918784 ---> So as you can see, both other analysts & I have written extensively on how there can be no AMCA without Tejas MK-2. If you have the time and the inclination, please go through the articles compiled in this thread here.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Sep 2019 21:28

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174620379542745089 ---> The real anti-nationals are those who oppose hard-fought indigenous efforts and try to stunt the growth of Indian Industry, irrespective of whether they are called Amar, Akbar or Anthony. There will be no India left for different ideologies to fight over without indigenization.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174569972011433984 ---> By the late 2020s, India will need at least 2 active fighter production lines. One of them will have to be the Tejas MK-2 Medium Weight Fighter, obviously. In fact, as I have said before, either @IAF_MCC will have to go big on the Tejas family or it will have to go home.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174607026623614979 ---> The typical method of going ahead with very large import deals first in the name of preparedness/diplomacy ensures that services budgets are saddled with huge committed liabilities and are literally left with no money to place orders for DAC approved indigenous equipment.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174607789122932737 ---> Years go by between DAC approval, trials and actual orders. In any case, DAC approvals are for a finite period of time and typically lapse by the time there is even a hint that orders for a system that has cleared trials may actually be placed.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174313229931053058 ---> And please, don't pretend that you have the fiscal space to import propeller driven drones worth $80 million a piece.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1174315074510442496 ---> Psst. Overheard in the corridors of a Finance Ministry:
• 'Madam, I beg you Madam', don't give a fiscal stimulus, Madam.'

• 'Madam, I beg you Madam, if we don't buy these toy planes from America for a gadzillion a piece, our national security will be impaired, Madam.'

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Sep 2019 23:24

See the power of knowledge. Click on the link below and read the comments.

Not possible from even a few years ago (pre May 2014). Look at the transformation.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1174597416240107520

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 20 Sep 2019 00:11

And, IIRC, shiv was singing paeons for him on teetar, that Yusuf has more knowledge than the collective knowledge of BRF!

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 20 Sep 2019 00:26

He is entitled to his opinion, just like everyone else is. Merits and demerits can be debated but there is no need for that kind of unsightly friendly fire with two jingos taking cheap shots at each other in public.

I think that neither of them are either 100% right nor 100% wrong.

MWF is very much required, and cannot be abandoned in favour of the AMCA. At the same time we can't afford to drag out the AMCA timelines just because of focus on the MWF.

Possible solution lies in the govt funding both programs significantly better to enable more hiring, test and NPI equipment, and better program management and expanding the focus on both significantly. It is not either/or situation, we need both and GOI needs to get serious about local programs.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Sep 2019 00:59

or maturing LO through Aurora project, but yes, US already has 5th gen fighter, Russia is getting there and china is flying pseudo LO platforms (that will mature very fast). We don't have luxury of time on AMCA.
To push the line against MWF, lets get 200-300 LCA mk1A (refueling will cover some short range issues, and multi-racks, less number of missiles). Frankly for AA roles (CAP, Air cover etc.), I do not see the need for more than 2 CCM and 2 BVR. At any given time, 2-4 ship formation of LCA will be flying, and between them they will have 4 to 8 CCM and 4 to 8 BVR. That is significant against an intruding air raid (TSPAF will not be sending 24 packages in India, and there will be other fighters as well). Most likely you will have 1-2 'dog fight' before the next engagement.
Against ground targets, even Mirages went with only 1 spice each. There could be case that we need more hard points, but that can be alleviated by adding more planes (since we will have them in numbers).
For our entry level aircraft (what role Mig 21 plays now), MK1A should be enough. It is however not enough for MMCRA role (and then we need LCA MK-2). But if some of the MMCRA role can be taken up by extra SU30MKI etc., why not?

Still, LCA MK1, MK1A, MK2 and MCA looks like more promising and less risky (albeit delaying MCA) than LCA, mk1a and MCA. If we have to buy foreign MMCRA, lets make MK2.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Sep 2019 01:48

There's one article, someone's opinion. Not the first article we have seen bereft of sense. If some people want to tear it down, rebutt it on points. Lets not waste footage here on useless personal attacks or usual rants and lower the standard of discourse here.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Sep 2019 02:50

Group Captain HVT Thakur (Retd) has weighed in on the article.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1174717296968814593 ---> There's AMCA, Mk-II/MWF & many other developments over LCA, on the drawing board. Many other significant designs. It's not yet time to shelve any designs. Yes, we should try to speed up AMCA. Needs lot of money. Other developments are not costly & should continue simultaneously.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1174727566776684545 ---> Catching up with the 5th Gen bandwagon may take quite some doing. Perhaps, stealth efforts will get overtaken by anti-stealth measures sooner than anticipated. IAF's choice of 4+ gen Rafale over FGFA was indeed a good one.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1174727734435598336 ---> We'll probably need a small number of 5th Gen birds & a lot of stealthy 6th gen UCAVs of different sizes and payloads. That's where we ought to be headed.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Sep 2019 03:18

Rakesh wrote:See the power of knowledge. Click on the link below and read the comments.

Not possible from even a few years ago (pre May 2014). Look at the transformation.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1174597416240107520

My comment is the first one:

ChampakBhumia e Kashmir
@ChampakbhumiaE
Replying to
@YusufDFI
@SJha1618
here's how IMPORT pasands like Yusuf try to kill indigenous platforms before birth
@ramana_brf
@gus_brf
@brfharbans

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 92386?s=20

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Sep 2019 03:25

dipak wrote:And, IIRC, shiv was singing paeons for him on teetar, that Yusuf has more knowledge than the collective knowledge of BRF!

I had war with Shiv and Vishnu Som on that; non-Knowledgeable AIM was also in that discussion speaking about brf as expert.

I challenged shiv jee that he can't show me a single article by unzhawala and vishnu som matching knowledge of Karan M & article written on Tejas mk.2 by Jay and Indraneel.

And Unzhawala is unmasked

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Sep 2019 03:40

+1

These writers are simpleton linear thinkers who don’t understand how technology R&D works. Their real hidden agenda is to “fill-their-pockets”. They can’t envisage that multiple indigenous programs can run in parallel and that all of them feed off each other for each’s attainment and advancement. It’s a continuous process.

Is the Print going to publish a counter view article as well?

Karan M wrote:As far as crazy articles go, the above is a prime example and given the authors recent predilection in pushing F-16s for MMRCA, one may well ask what were his motives? Is it to now push a F-35 purchase instead of the MWF, a fighter which is neither on offer for the IAF, especially post S-400 and if it did come, would have so many strings attached so as to hobble our warfighting capability?

So moment IAF decides to double down on an indigenous program, which directly cuts into the MMRCA kitty, these articles emerge.

Never mind, if the MWF is obsolete on arrival, how is the Rafale not obsolete? Or the EF, or the F-16, F-18 etc? If there is no MWF, what happens to the IAF in the gap between Mk1A and AMCA, it will just have to double down on imported MMRCAs.

Fact: The IAF feels the Rafale and the MMRCA are enough to take on the J-20 and FC-31 threat. If so, how will the MWF fare worse?

Fact is the MWF will have a state of the art sensor suite, some amount of signature reduction, good amount of payload/range and defensive aids - ECM, MAWS, towed decoy etc. It will be well suited to carry a host of long range PGMs to range. Its operational capability will match whatever current 4.5 Gen aircraft bring & even exceed them.

From the technology & manufacturing point of view, it will be the right bridge to the AMCA. With a 300 fighter LCA/MWF production run, it will ensure AMCA hits the ground running with HAL & a bunch of private partners capable of managing the entire production & sustainment.

In short, the above article is just a pile of crock.

That it had to emerge when it did, just reinforces the fact that it was meant to peddle an agenda and a rather obvious one at that. The IAFs support for the LCA has rattled some folks who had looked at the IAFs airframe scarcity, and thought it meant a huge lucrative order was in the books. Cancelling the MWF would be idiocy of the highest kind. The IAF has to be supported in pursuing a proper development path from LCA to MWF and then the AMCA, as versus sabotaging the MWF program and again risking a Marut experience and LCA style development challenge when making the AMCA, as many LCA skills and capabilities would have atrophied.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Sep 2019 04:09

It is also timed when LCA is getting a boat load of publicity! plus their tweet still shows up when you have unfollowed them. That means they are promoting / peddling their views with cash backing. Be good to know who is paying for it.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 21 Sep 2019 10:50

Manish_Sharma wrote:
dipak wrote:And, IIRC, shiv was singing paeons for him on teetar, that Yusuf has more knowledge than the collective knowledge of BRF!
I had war with Shiv and Vishnu Som on that; non-Knowledgeable AIM was also in that discussion speaking about brf as expert.

I challenged shiv jee that he can't show me a single article by unzhawala and vishnu som matching knowledge of Karan M & article written on Tejas mk.2 by Jay and Indraneel.

And Unzhawala is unmasked

I was puzzled since I am a huge fan of shiv and hold him in high regard. And also I miss his inimitable style and piskology now on brf. Can't fathom the reason for that tweet, may be I am not able to grasp some piskology there

.

But I am sure, at the end of the day, we all are on India's side. We can avoid any blue-on-blue. My last on this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Sep 2019 17:58

Cybaru wrote:It is also timed when LCA is getting a boat load of publicity! plus their tweet still shows up when you have unfollowed them. That means they are promoting / peddling their views with cash backing. Be good to know who is paying for it.

I am just glad some of these decision makers (at one time) like AM Manmohan Bahadur (a heli pilot) if I am not mistaken are no longer associated with the IAF officially or via organizations like CAPS.

The negativity expressed in almost his articles, is a testament to the amount of hostility desi program managers have to face whenever they propose any program or capability enhancement.

Note: The moment Tejas was due a significant event, the RM flying it, the program getting 83 MK1A orders and the MWF program presumably getting funded attention, first Yousuf jumped in & then Mr Bahadur.

It speaks volumes about how hard it is for India to spend relative peanuts on indigenization such as a Billion $ on the entire Tejas airframe development till 2015, whereas we spend a Billion euros plus for "enhancements" for a mere 36 Rafales.

And then in the same breath, they accuse DRDO/HAL etc of being slow, incompetent etc. You quibble for 3 years over a local production run of a local fighter, much of whose money goes to a local supply chain, and have no qualms about spending far more on imports of a handful of airframes. If I am a desi supplier, why the heck would I work with either org to supply them? What do I get for investing resources for years in a protracted R&D game and only to receive trickle feed orders? Easier for me to avoid defence altogether, or join hands with HAL to do simpler build to print for some license program (brain off, design copy, limited gains in manufacturing).

Combat capability is a point well understood. The need for the Rafale is too. But how can they not understand economies of scale or the disparity in support?

How are HAL or DRDO to work on complex programs like UCAVs, loyal wingman, swarms if you constantly sabotage local programs and ensure they never rise beyond license assembly?

The lack of vision displayed by the above folks is galling. They want an all singing and dancing answer, but won't let it learn or be funded. No wonder we are in this mess, post Marut. We can see exactly the headwinds continuing that program would have faced.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Sep 2019 22:13

Well I did happen to read YU's article that is in news currently. There are only two reasons why one will write such an article.

1. He has an agenda. Or he was facing financial troubles and somebody promised him financial help in lieu of negative marketing for Tejas MK2.

If above was the reason, then I have nothing to say. Everyone here is wise enough to draw his own conclusions.

2. He genuinely believes in what he wrote

If this is the case, then I am afraid he is way behind the curve and is still living in the 90's wrt DRDO. During that period it made sense to develop one aircraft as DRDO was just starting off and the ecosystem was simply not there in terms of aeronautical engineers, other scientific and technical manpower, subvendors etc. But now situation is much improved and this has been corroborated by the DRDO chief Dr. G.Satheesh Reddy himself on vimarsh program. No longer there is a shortage of Aeronautical engineers and other manpower required to execute aircraft development programs. Vendor ecosystem is already in place. R&D Arrangements with academia including IITS, NITs are already in place. This demolishes the primary premise of the Author's argument that DRDO can focus on only one aircraft program at a time. Today DRDO is perfectly capable of carrying out multiple programs in parallel. And it is not just limited to Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA. It is simultaneously working on Ghatak UCAV. This is apart from Rustom 1 and 2 development. So it is high time somebody wakes up the author. Best part is that all this has been corroborated by Dr. G.Sathees Reddy himself. That Vimarsh video is itself the biggest counter to this article.

As far as Tejas MK2 is concerned most of the components already exist including aesa radar and F-414 engines. Funding wise also it shouldn't be such a strain as far as TD and prototyping stage is concerned. This kind of funding is anyways an absolute necessity for mentoring young engineers in aircraft technology. Bulk of the funding will anyways be required only after the aircraft is ready and is about to be ordered. Dr. Reddy himself stated that since ecosystem is present now, time taken would be much less compared to Tejas MK1.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Sep 2019 22:31

The comment by AVM, that MWF may not come in the timeline as claimed. Yes it is possible.

But then there would not have been a MWF, if IAF had not asked for it! If IAF does not see MK1A meeting it's requirements, say in terms of range.. it asked for it and that is exactly what they are getting!

IAF asked for Mig21 sized jet to replace Mig21. Not Mirage sized jet to replace Mig21,M2000, Jag & Mig29!

How is DRDO or HAL responsible for MWF?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Sep 2019 22:37

With respect to YU's article once again, given below is the list of experimental aircraft tested by USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_X-planes

If you happen to look at the list, you will also find out that most of these aircrafts were purely experimental aerospace projects both military and civilian, i.e they were never inducted in any service or mass produced. There are many reasons why US has such a vibrant aerospace r&d sector. The foremost is maintaining technological superiority over the rest of the world.

There is one reason though that I would like to discuss though. Let us say that we choose not to have multiple aerospace programs. Then what happens to our technical manpower i.e Engineers, software programmers, Fabricators, Fitters, welders etc. There are some options for them

1. They can choose to emigrate to nations more conducive to this kind of work
2. They can shift to IT industry.
3. They can work in some call centre.
4. They can work as delivery boys for Amazon, flipkart, zomato etc
5. They can also work in some retail outlet assisting customers with"How may I help you".

Are these the options we want for our young generation? We should be doubling down on our technological R&D efforts. That includes even more manpower, better scientific infrastructure and more funds(with reasonable audit).

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Sep 2019 22:45

nam wrote:The comment by AVM, that MWF may not come in the timeline as claimed. Yes it is possible.

But then there would not have been a MWF, if IAF had not asked for it! If IAF does not see MK1A meeting it's requirements, say in terms of range.. it asked for it and that is exactly what they are getting!

IAF asked for Mig21 sized jet to replace Mig21. Not Mirage sized jet to replace Mig21,M2000, Jag & Mig29!

How is DRDO or HAL responsible for MWF?

So what? Even if it does not pan out as desired in terms of time and quality i.e just in case, at the minimum it will be science project. And it is programs like these that will ensure the technological standing of India compared to the rest of the world. These are the programs that will ensure that the nation has adequate supply of quality manpower for delivering aerospace projects in the coming years.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Sep 2019 00:11

Order 125 mk1s and 200mk1a and be done with it. Make AMCA lite MWF. My fear is that MWF as it currently stands will see tareekh pey tareekh from the stakeholders concerned and then a final token order like the mk1..

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Sep 2019 00:24

darshhan wrote:
If this is the case, then I am afraid he is way behind the curve and is still living in the 90's wrt DRDO.

Exactly my thoughts after reading that article. In fact many on BRF (which is always ahead of the curve) are stuck in 90s mindset and are yet to accept the changing realities about Indian RnD establishment.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 22 Sep 2019 00:53

Under no circumstances should the LCA mark 2 should be stopped. I see agenda driven traitors out in full force just as this program is taking off. Bad news for the swedes. Their gripen will be toast and also independance for India from these foreigners. India should push harder than ever to shake off these people.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 22 Sep 2019 00:56

It reminds me of that dialogue from Sholay. Chilao or chilao. Yad ha kal me chila raha tha thum tamasha dekh rahe the, aaj tum chilao me tamasha dekhunga.Especially relevant for the swedes and americans

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 22 Sep 2019 01:40

Suresh S wrote:It reminds me of that dialogue from Sholay. Chilao or chilao. Yad ha kal me chila raha tha thum tamasha dekh rahe the, aaj tum chilao me tamasha dekhunga.Especially relevant for the swedes and americans

Remember the letter Lockheed Martin wrote to our RM before its first flight and look where we are now. there is no doubt that we need mk2/MWF.

having said that i have to agree with AVM Bahadur that the timeline quoted for MK2 is un realistic. we have always seen timelines to be very aggressive; maybe drdo thinks that proj will not be approved if the timeline is long ??

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blo ... ble-shape/

"The Tejas Mk2 would be a totally new aircraft with a more powerful GE-414 engine requiring significant changes to its design – and when the engine and fuselage change, it calls for extensive flight testing. Its production in six years, with it presently being on the drawing board, is stuff for the movies"

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Sep 2019 08:45

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 64418?s=20

ChampakBhumia e Kashmir
@ChampakbhumiaE
Swedish are very insecure that Tejas Mk 2 is much superior to gripen ng they'll be happy to see Tejas Mk 2 cancellation

Yusuf Unjhawala
@YusufDFI
AVM
@BahadurManmohan
: “The Tejas Mk2 would be a totally new aircraft ..requiring significant changes to its design – it calls for extensive flight testing. Its production in six years, with it presently being on the drawing board, is stuff for the movies”

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... ssion=true

Friends use social media to counter this hyenas pack propaganda

khan · Post by **khan** » 22 Sep 2019 09:59

Sometime ago I had made the same point. There was a media report that said that AMCA development was halted/slowed down while resources were allocated towards MWF.

To me, the answer to this conundrum is, if ADA has the resources to do both in parallel, then they should absolutely develop both jets.

But if dropping MWF will shave 3-5 years off AMCA development time, they should drop MWF. It’s an absolute no brainer to me. There are a multitude of new & used MWF class planes available. Additionally, even without buying MWF class planes, with some creativity, a combination of LCA MK1A (in serious numbers - say 250 planes) & MKI can be used for the same/similar missions as you would need MWF for.

There is no AMCA class (stealthy) plane available to India right now & no guarantee anything will be available in 2030 (PAK-FA is questionable to me). If China has 2-300 stealthy planes & India has zero in 2035, this is big problem that no number of MWF can fix.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Sep 2019 10:21

It is more predictable and lower risk to develop MWF fighter for ADA/ DRDO and more useful for AF with guranteed buy by forces so spending on near immediate deliverable makes more sense.

AMCA is a high risk option with no guarantees that it will stick to time and schedule that IAF is looking for and iaf had not committed any orders for it unlike mwf and not even funding for FSED has been approved by GOI

So it makes sense for ADA to put money where mouth is and make Tejas success and meet the near term need of AF when it is developing so beautifully you don't want to get distracted and commit resources else where

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Sep 2019 10:30

khan wrote: ....It’s an absolute no brainer to me. There are a multitude of new & used MWF class planes available...

Saudi bought 70s fighter f16 for 145 million dollars apiece just now....

We paid 50 million $ apiece for Mirage 2000 upgrade in 2012.

Same arguments will be given after cancellation of Tejas Mk 2, AGAINST AMCA "that now world is moving towards 6th generation and we are planning to productionise 5th generation in 2036..."

Sweden sold 36 gripen to Brazil for 4.68 billion in 2015.... with military inflation how much bigger model NG cost in 2026? Why is no one criticizing Swede for development of 4th generation gripen NG?

amrika removed gun from fighter in 60s thinking missile has made gun redundant, now in 2019 they put gun on f 35. SO NEW MYTH CREATED THAT IT'S WRONG TO DEVELOP Tejas Mk2 , although same people never ever objected to DEVELOPMENT OF GRIPPEN NG or Rafale F4 / F5

5th generation - 6th generation all excuses to kill Tejas but gripen Rafale Eurofighter all continue with production of new tranches

Defense Minister Rajnath Singh's flight in Tejas has disturbed foriegn nations and import LOBBY thoroughly.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 22 Sep 2019 11:27

We should not only develop LCA MK2 but also AJT version of LCA & Perhaps LCA MK3 the rumoured stealth version of LCA

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Sep 2019 12:45

I think IAF is now moving past the Mig-21 driven short-range fighters based in forward air bases. The Balakot strike was carried out by Mirages based in Gwalior. I recall AM Dhanoa saying that entire India is a single theater. So IMO, AF wants longer range, higher endurance, multi-role fighters and not the Mig-21'ish fighters.
That has problems with Tejas because it was primarily conceptualized (by AF itself) as Mig-21 replacement. So, while Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As are truly multi-role and have advanced avionics and will be ordered in good numbers, they won't fit in the IAF plans for future.
That's where ADA has proposed the Tejas Mk2 as MWF by making changes to the airframe and getting it to the light-medium category (F16/M2K) which will later become the light aircraft that IAF really wants.
AMCA, to me, is will be in Rafale class with stealth. The requirements are quite tough - stealth, super avionics, super cruise etc. Will take a lot of time to perfect.

So, to me, there are two options:
- Go with Tejas Mk2 and in parallel develop AMCA. Let AMCA take a lot of time to develop and also perfect the technologies (radar etc) on Tejas. In the meantime, order more ~~Rafales~~ (err MMRCAs) to cover up the advanced fighter range "gap" (IAF feels there is a gap to counter chinese stealth fighters).
- Cancel Tejas Mk2, focus on AMCA. The AMCA cannot mature that quickly even if all the Tejas Mk2 funds are diverted to it. So, the first version needs to be BMCA (Basic MCA) that evolves into AMCA over a period of time.

It is quite obvious that ADA and IAF have concurred that the first option is the least risky and the best. Yusuf obviously believes otherwise. My opinion (devoid of facts) doesn't matter

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Sep 2019 13:58

My thoughts on the article making a case for scrapping of MWF, which I already put up on twitter, copying it here -

Cost comparison is incorrect. Comparison of (total order/no of jets) for LCA with cost of bare F35A..? Upper bound for cost of MK1A is 400Cr. More realistic ~350Cr. Rest of the package has PBL, SPJ etc included.

Bottom line is MWF is a bridge from MK1A to AMCA which de-risks AMCA program to a large extent by providing a gradual path to 5G Fighter ecosystem including, Technology, design & development, Manufacturing, QA, Supply chain development, indigenous MIC capability dev etc.

OTOH it helps arrest the falling numbers for IAF with a fighter which fulfills IAF's requirements and which is better future-proofed than MK1 with an organic growth margin, to act as gap filler till we can shore up AMCA in numbers. That de-risks IAF's deployed capability.

There are visible improvements in manufacturing technology in MWF going by HAL tenders, such as jig-less assembly, sub-assy level equipping. And concurrent production. There is visible low risk growth path from Mk1 > Mk1A > Mk2 > AMCA. Jumping will only force ADA/HAL to chew more That they can in one go and 20-30yrs down the line we will see stories on how ADA/HAL wanted too many radical tech dev in one go for AMCA when what it should have done is to continue on LCA dev with technology at hand to provide IAF a timely solution to arrest number loss. While it also doesn't make much sense to make too many of Mk1A, given their handicap in Range/endurance. Even though IAF says they will replace M2K, Jag, MiG29 with MWF, thats just the numbers. In capability, LCA will raise IAF's bottomline from existing MiG21/23/27 et al to MWF going in 2040's. While AMCA will be the true replacement of our medium weight fighters. IAF does need 200 or more MWF for that strong bottom line in future. MK1/1A are inadequate for future. With MWF in hand we can retire them in 25 odd yr without deep upgrade then.

There are other factors like design tools and methodology on the development side for ADA. Additional interation will allow ADA to incorporate the learnings from MK1 flight testing in their design methods and tools and form a robust and Validated base from which they can leap for 5G design which needs a significant jump from conventional design methods to a more coupled and multidisciplinary approach. Similar upgrade is needed in Quality Assurance. Basically the whole ecosystem needs upgrade. And the more Iteration we have the lower the risk of development. If we skip LCA MK2, the risk on the development of AMCA will go up exponentially just as it happened for LCA after we skipped iteration after HF24.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 22 Sep 2019 14:27

i think the IAF has decided to adopted the french and german airforce doctrine of force modernization which is to go from 4.5+++ gen rafael and eurofighter to 6th gen straight. why have they done this? there is no official report but some news articles in some military sites state that:
1> the french and the german pitted the rafael and eurofighter against f-22 in exercises and concluded:
1) f-22 advantage was at ranges 80-90 km where it could not be detected. but if extensive EW were applied which prevented the f-22 to fire
BVRAAM at 80-90 km range and force it to come closer to 45-50 km range the stealth of f-22 was negated because the IRST sensors on rafael and
eurofighter picked up the f-22 which could be used to fire the MICA-IR BVRAAM at it.
2) In the presence of friendly airspace defended by Integrated air defense network which has UHF and VFH radars ,the countering of intruding stealth aircraft is easy. the UHF radar can detect f-22,f-35 aircraft at ranges of 150 km because stealth aircraft are designed to defeat x band FCR and cannot escape detecting from UHF waves. so UHF RADAR can detect f-22,f-35 but can not track it accurately enough to guide a SAM to it. this is where a fighter armed with IRST comes in. the UHF radar will track the stealth fighter and then using IADS direct the defending 4.5 gen fighter with IRST and IIR guided BVRAAM towards the hostile intruding stealth fighter and then the 4.5 gen fighter can use the on-board IRST to detect and engage the 5 gen fighter.
2> the french and germans seemed to have concluded that the capital cost of acquisition and high operation cost of 5 gen is not worth it and it would be better to jump to 6th with its LO manned and unmanned UAV concept

in this regard IAF seems to believe that with su-30,mig 29, rafael and tejas mk2 MWF equipped with IRST they can counter j-20 and FC-31/J-31 sufficiently to deter china long enough for AMCA to come along. and in the mean time if shit hits the fan and FC-31 is exported to the pakis there is always 2-3 sqn worth of su-57 that can be bought.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 22 Sep 2019 14:28

I say this with a lot of sigh & not a little tinge of annoyance.

Knowledgeable people on BRF, who can give charlatans a run for their money, are happy to post reams here in this nice, cozy, echo-chamber. But too lazy to get their thoughts out there! There used to be no pro-India outlets before. Now there are several. Delhi Defence Review, Swarajya, OpIndia to name a few.

I will name names. Why is Karan M not writing regular articles on one of the magazines or online portals with reach? Yes - it will take a bit more time to publish an article than to post here. But not that much more time.

Similarly, Rudradev has a lot of insight on genetics, but when the Rakhigarhi paper comes out, he goes into hiding - barring a few tweets. While idiots like Tony Joseph write long-form garbage.

Indranil's article on Tejas is a good exception.

The enemy has a field day even though he is incompetent, because we are too tamasic.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Sep 2019 14:38

JayS wrote:...
While it also doesn't make much sense to make too many of Mk1A, given their handicap in Range/endurance. Even though IAF says they will replace M2K, Jag, MiG29 with MWF, thats just the numbers. In capability, LCA will raise IAF's bottomline from existing MiG21/23/27 et al to MWF going in 2040's. While AMCA will be the true replacement of our medium weight fighters. IAF does need 200 or more MWF for that strong bottom line in future. MK1/1A are inadequate for future. With MWF in hand we can retire them in 25 odd yr without deep upgrade then.
...

Excess Mk1/1A airframes could be used for foreign policy as “gifts” to friendly Asian neighbors and African countries. We have seen GoI gift ALH, Donair and patrol ships in the recent past.

IMO, GoI/IAF should keep ordering Mk1/1A to fill immediate gaps and when MWF and AMCA become available in numbers excess Mk1/1A could be put up as secondary reserves while GoI finds friendly nations to gift the airframes to. India still makes money from ongoing lifecycle support, customization, training, and weapons package.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 22 Sep 2019 14:40

Austin wrote:It is more predictable and lower risk to develop MWF fighter for ADA/ DRDO and more useful for AF with guranteed buy by forces so spending on near immediate deliverable makes more sense.

AMCA is a high risk option with no guarantees that it will stick to time and schedule that IAF is looking for and iaf had not committed any orders for it unlike mwf and not even funding for FSED has been approved by GOI

So it makes sense for ADA to put money where mouth is and make Tejas success and meet the near term need of AF when it is developing so beautifully you don't want to get distracted and commit resources else where

You are still unable to get the drift. Basically you are in the same boat as Unzhawala. The only difference is that he is rooting for AMCA and you are cheerleading for Tejas MK2.

The fact is that today India i.e DRDO wrt aerospace research can easily work on multiple programs in parallel. And is currently doing so. The manpower is there(Just check the no. of mechanical/aeronautical engineers graduating from Top institutes), the technological infrastructure is there, Working arrangement with universities such as IITs/NITs is thriving and vendor ecosystem is relatively much more mature. All this has been already confirmed by DRDO chief himself. But somehow you are unable to see all that and then you feel that DRDO is still the same DRDO of 80's and 90's. Just like those goras who still perceive India as a country of snake charmers and street side acrobats.

As far as the question of funding and resources is concerned, Lot of that has already been expended to create world class infrastructure. Whether it is Project Orange near Hyderabad for testing RCS or Chitradurga testing range or ADA facilities. Now if we do not use this infrastructure to maximum, definitely the funding expended till now will get wasted. Even CAG will raise the question that if you didn't have to use this infrastructure, then why create it. Therefore it is in our interest to use these facilities fully.

And anyways more indigenous R&D programs here means more worthwhile employment for Indian Youngsters in all positions and fulfill their valid aspirations. Just because we are brown skinned doesn't mean we are destined to be a country of call center agents, restaurant waiters or delivery boys.

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Sep 2019 14:47

I wonder how will these plans about MWF & AMCA will be effected.. if PAF goes for FC31.

It is one thing Chinese flying J20, but Pak with even a "propaganda" stealth in FC31 will force IAF in to a reaction.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 22 Sep 2019 14:54

Prem Kumar wrote:...Why is Karan M not writing regular articles on one of the magazines or online portals with reach? Yes - it will take a bit more time to publish an article than to post here. But not that much more time.

Similarly, Rudradev has a lot of insight...
The enemy has a field day even though he is incompetent, because we are too tamasic.

+108^108

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 22 Sep 2019 15:09

Prem Kumar wrote:I say this with a lot of sigh & not a little tinge of annoyance.

Knowledgeable people on BRF, who can give charlatans a run for their money, are happy to post reams here in this nice, cozy, echo-chamber. But too lazy to get their thoughts out there! There used to be no pro-India outlets before. Now there are several. Delhi Defence Review, Swarajya, OpIndia to name a few.

I will name names. Why is Karan M not writing regular articles on one of the magazines or online portals with reach? Yes - it will take a bit more time to publish an article than to post here. But not that much more time.

Similarly, Rudradev has a lot of insight on genetics, but when the Rakhigarhi paper comes out, he goes into hiding - barring a few tweets. While idiots like Tony Joseph write long-form garbage.

Indranil's article on Tejas is a good exception.

The enemy has a field day even though he is incompetent, because we are too tamasic.

Truer word has never been spoken.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 22 Sep 2019 15:56

I guess when the policy document was developed for formation of 42 squadrons, they would have definitely given the breakup of no. of Light Weight, Light-Medium, Medium-Heavy and Heavy fighter jets, and also their roles... Ofcourse, that document is classified and no one outside really knows the specifics...
-
But, in all probability, IAF is moving away from Light Weight fleet...
They have a requirement of Light-Medium Jets like Mirage2000... So, Mk2 is the ideal solution...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Sep 2019 18:46

1. Lockheed Martin with all its experience took 10 years from first flight to induction. Will MWF fly by 2025? Let's say yes, what is IAF supposed to fly till then?
2. MWF design challenge is mainly aerodynamics? What are AMCA's primary challenge. If it's not aerodynamics, is MWF in the way of AMCA?
3. Most of MWF design work is complete. So is MWF in the way?
4. One would realize that MWF is neither a stepping stone to AMCA, nor is it an impediment. No wonder, ADA has two parallel teams for the same.

Common people just dont have the patience required to develop combat aircraft. Design plus testing takes 20 years. But I thought Yusuf was knowledgeable about this.