Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Oct 2021 19:24

Manish_Sharma wrote:
chetak wrote: so who will convince the pilots to fly such engines while designers are safe on the ground or would they also be willing to fly as passengers on these aircraft during tests

or would you prefer it if the pilots were simply ordered to do so by "higher" authorities

sorry to be so blunt, but there it is
They created a pilotless version of f16 a decade ago. It flew well. Maybe we can also run it as a separate project a pilotless Tejas with Kaveri GTX. Also on Ghatak UCAV.

Anyway EJ200 seems very close to GE F414, so maybe Tejas Mk.2 can fly on that.

M88 is 17 inch shorter and 9 inches thinner than Ge414 and it was able to replace in Rafale. So can EJ200.

There are people who have been tasked to build the MIC by developing products and helping out in the transfer of technology to industry..

let them get the fingers out and do what they should to do, create a pilotless test bed or an engine less aircraft like they have done now.

No one has asked them for accounts, justification or even queried their expertise until it all started to go downhill and the LCA and its engine problems started to loom large on the nation's consciousness.

The beginning of all the problems was when ABA named the aircraft tejus and literally ignited the imagination of the Indian nation, gave us pride and hope that we too could build technological wonders and stand shoulder to shoulder with the best in the world.

what's holding up the engine guys now...

I learned a lesson very early in life, always deliver more than what you have promised or don't promise

one bada तोप took 23 years to deliver a rudimentary drone and other bada तोपs are still not anywhere near delivery on their promise and it's been close to three decades now, give or take.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Oct 2021 19:36

BS - no one has asked to fly an unsafe engine. Test pilots will fly a proven version till the bugs are worked out. Safety could perhaps be improved by first testing the engine in a twin engine aircraft that is well instrumented to keep the pilot aware of safety.

Risks have to be taken - especially with the first of anything - aircraft airframes, engines, human spacefilight. If we want to be first in anything we will need to take risks. Unless we want to remain the first in writing checks from the national treasury to foreign vendors. Test pilots are a special breed and the people that put them in the air do so with more care than the crew that sends up a pilot in his Mig-21 or Mirage 2000 or Sukhoi or even the MK1 LCA.

But it seems that there is potential in developing the Kaveri for Rafale type aircraft. Instead of trying to raise the engine's performance output, perhaps it should be qualified for integration into a Mig-29 or MKI airframe for test flights.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Oct 2021 19:54

hgupta wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
It's parts wear off much quicker than western engines. Kaveri Engine life is very short and high maintenance.
So? At least it is being paid for in rupees. Money stays in India and can be used to support further R&D sustainment programs. Why can't we implement the Japanese concept of Kaizen where we can continue to improve Kaveri over iterations?

Exactly hgupta!! A Kaveri powering Mig-29s would be priceless. Manish can you add the RD-33 Series 3 to the engine comparisons?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Oct 2021 20:04

Where there is will and money options can easily be opened up. MiG-29 is a good system to test this on. Used F/A-18C's are also available and given the F-404 commonality, an engine sized similarly would make them a perfect test bed. But they have to get going on this. If there's funding and motivation test beds shouldn't be an impediment.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 07 Oct 2021 20:07

brar_w wrote:If there's funding and motivation test beds shouldn't be an impediment.

How long have you been here on brf? What is the one thing we all whine about?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Oct 2021 20:18

kit wrote:
You guys are right and in a way answered your own questions, India being a democracy is answerable to anyone with internet access and can write !! .. we are very risk averse ! .. does anyone think we can develop a fighter engine without an element of risk however vigorously tested ? ( off note a couple of tejas crashes could have written it off as well !! ) Hence the need for "foreign" tried and tested maal .. ( another matter being even if the thing has not even left the drawing board, there seems to be no issues with risk taking if its a gora untested engine)

There is no "import lobby" as you seem to think. It is a strawman argument by folks who know little and believe in CTs

Every import request, among other things, needs the mandatory sign off of the DRDO guys. The MOD scrutinizes these details minutely as do the various finance guys from other ministries. So, how many will you bribe

One single or even several generals acting in unison simply cannot sway the decision.

The risk you are talking about is operational risk.

the risk that I am talking about is development risk

Operational risk is far removed from development risk where the program progresses as safely as it possibly can, with all precautions and safety measures in place.

This engine has some ways to go before it can be considered safe for flight tests on the intended airframe(s). No one will take shortcuts just because otherwise the "import lobby will win"

looking at the threat perception in the region, the forces are saying give us the means to fight.

In 1962, the IA was sent in unprepared, ill equipped and badly outfitted because some idiots did know their you know what from a hole in the ground.

In 1971, manekshaw asked for time to prepare, got it, lined up his ducks in a row and delivered spectacular results.

That is all the forces are asking for even today: give us the proper means to fight. Is that so difficult to understand or is that also to be colored by this "import lobby" conspiracy.

why ask the forces to carry a knife to a gunfight. This is exactly what the BIF would want

Because of Modi's requirement for huge moneys for social development, arms imports will any way be scrutinized with a fine toothed comb.

How will the"import lobby" do its dirty work then

We now have keyboard happy armchair jernails talking about "import lobbies", risk averseness and gora untested engines. name one single gora untested engine that has entered service in India because of the "import lobby"

we are sanatanis, we even consider the lives of cockroaches as sacred, so why not the sacred life of a guy who has voluntarily donned the uniform at great personal risk to himself and his family because of firmly held convictions.

I don't want to speculate if you have donned the battle colors

accidents happen because of unforeseen eventualities, after taking all precautions.

It should not happen because someone invites the accident to happen because risks are not clearly and adequately addressed and also just to spite this mythical beast called the "import lobby"

The engine is in no state to be mated with any airframe for flight test purposes and it will not be ready for some years to come.

one thing that everyone will agree with you is:

India being a democracy is answerable to anyone with internet access and can write !!

so get the popcorn out because all we can do at this moment is twiddle our thumbs.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Oct 2021 20:47

brar_w wrote:Where there is will and money options can easily be opened up. MiG-29 is a good system to test this on. Used F/A-18C's are also available and given the F-404 commonality, an engine sized similarly would make them a perfect test bed. But they have to get going on this. If there's funding and motivation test beds shouldn't be an impediment.

IAF needs to push for this - make one Mig-29 available and let DRDO go to town with it. Take this step if India ever wants to develop an aircraft engine. Or else pretend to be risk averse (while 200-300 pilots died in Mig-21s) while gleefully sending Indian money and jobs overseas.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Oct 2021 21:45

Vivek K wrote:BS - no one has asked to fly an unsafe engine. Test pilots will fly a proven version till the bugs are worked out. Safety could perhaps be improved by first testing the engine in a twin engine aircraft that is well instrumented to keep the pilot aware of safety.

Risks have to be taken - especially with the first of anything - aircraft airframes, engines, human spacefilight. If we want to be first in anything we will need to take risks. Unless we want to remain the first in writing checks from the national treasury to foreign vendors. Test pilots are a special breed and the people that put them in the air do so with more care than the crew that sends up a pilot in his Mig-21 or Mirage 2000 or Sukhoi or even the MK1 LCA.

But it seems that there is potential in developing the Kaveri for Rafale type aircraft. Instead of trying to raise the engine's performance output, perhaps it should be qualified for integration into a Mig-29 or MKI airframe for test flights.

certainly.

who is stopping them.

buy some used aircraft (Mig-29 or sukhoi airframe(s)) with a modest spares package, from some XXXstan or the other and work on the modification and instrumentation to test the kaveri on one station and the original engine powering the second station.

risks are not to be taken.

Calculated risks with safety and all precautions in place are to be taken, safeguarding both man and machine.

no one joins up to give their lives to some stooopide cause where one party takes all the risk and the others line up to say sorry in chorus.

the saras and the idly accident are living examples of careless management.

kaveri has some ways to go before she becomes capable and qualifies for test flight. The ball remains in the designer's court. In it's current state, it is unsafe to fly.

let them all shoot for that aim as quickly as they can, by hurrying slowly and safely.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Oct 2021 21:53

That is what "qualifying" the engine for flight is all about. If I recall correctly, Safran has performed an audit of the Kaveri and had cleared it for integration. Where is the hold up? In IAF providing an aircraft perhaps due to the situation in the neighborhood. But even if HAL has to buy an additional Mig-29, it should be funded to do so. Fly the Kaveri and learn more about it than merely showing it in Aero India shows. If it does not work, discard and start again. Failure is not an "F" word! We can and WILL have an INDIAN engine!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Oct 2021 22:11

Vivek K wrote:That is what "qualifying" the engine for flight is all about. If I recall correctly, Safran has performed an audit of the Kaveri and had cleared it for integration. Where is the hold up? In IAF providing an aircraft perhaps due to the situation in the neighborhood. But even if HAL has to buy an additional Mig-29, it should be funded to do so. Fly the Kaveri and learn more about it than merely showing it in Aero India shows. If it does not work, discard and start again. Failure is not an "F" word! We can and WILL have an INDIAN engine!

The DRDO has adequate funds or has access to adequate funds to purchase these aircraft.

may need help in identifying suitable candidates for purchase.

Why buy new when used and in good condition will serve the purpose. By some few airframes with engines and spares.

use the military pilots because no other is available

like you said, if it works, it's the jackpot, if not, it is a new start knowing exactly what not to do the second time around with a possible iteration of the kaveri.

But we must have the home brew engine, come what may.

Best to keep the PSUs out of it.

They will come in with wheels within wheels churning away to the tune of their own agendas.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Oct 2021 22:35

The place for the Kaveri is the orca and tedbf. This should've been done ages ago. The safety of a twin engine bird will compensate for a new design engine and also thrust shortfall. As soon as the Tejas was found wanting in terms of power, all resources should've been plugged into a 2 kaveri engine bird as MK2. Yes it's not ideal for point defense but if the russkis, French and uk can do this, so can India. The insistence on a single engined Tejas costs us dearly imho. In a single stroke India coiuldve mitigated 3-4 major issues by now:

1. Concern oof relying on sanction prone engines
2. Creating indigenous turbofan
3. Arresting numbers shortfall in iaf by utterly removing the need for mrca
4. Providing a reliable and cutting edge solution for navy and its CV air group.

There are more reasons but it's only like 15 years too late now.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Oct 2021 23:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:
EJ200:
Length: 398.78 cm (157.00 in)
Diameter: 73.66 cm (29.00 in)
Dry weight: 988.83 kg (2,180.0 lb)

Maximum thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) and 90 kN (20,200 lbf) (with afterburner)

Thrust-to-weight ratio: 6.11:1 and 9.17:1 (with afterburner)
______________________

GE 414:
Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm)
Dry weight: 2,445 lb (1,110 kg) max weight

Maximum thrust:
13,000 lbf (57.8 kN) military thrust
22,000 lbf (97.9 kN) with afterburner

Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9
________________________

M88 Engine:

Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)

Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,200 lbf) and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) (with afterburner)

Thrust-to-weight ratio: 5.68:1 (dry) and 8.52:1 (with afterburner)
__________________

Kaveri GTX 35VS:
Length: 3,490.0 mm (137.4 in)
Diameter: 909.3 mm (35.8 in)
Dry weight: 1,236 kg (2,724 lb)

Maximum thrust:
Military: 52 kN (11,687 lbf)
Afterburner: 81 kN (18,210 lbf)

Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8
____________________

EJ200 is 3 inches longer and 6 inch thinner than GE 414

Seems very close fit.

While French M88 is 15 inch shorter in length and 8 inch thinner compared to GE 414

Our Kaveri GTX is 16 inch shorter in length to GE 414 WHILE same thickness

_________________

Klimov RD-33:
Length: 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
Diameter: 1,040 mm (40.94 in)

Dry weight: 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

Maximum thrust: 50.0 kN (11,230 lbf) dry, 81.3 kN (18,285 lbf) afterburning.
__________

Here Vivek RD-33 is way too long and too thick compared to all above engines.

basant · Post by **basant** » 07 Oct 2021 23:23

M88-4E (aka "TCO Pack") engine has potential in the range of 95-105 kN according to various reports. No info on dry thrust, so it might still not be much different.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Oct 2021 23:41

typical formula is Dry thrust if X, wet thrust is 1.5 X.

basant · Post by **basant** » 07 Oct 2021 23:55

The performance of F404 and F414 variants do not reflect that. I could be wrong about M88-x though.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Oct 2021 23:57

Manish, Afterburner is good for takeoff and for dog fights.
So dry thrust is what matters for most flight functions.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Oct 2021 04:14

So can the Kaveri be used in a Mig-29 with appropriate alterations to fit the available space? I would think that should be the case.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Oct 2021 04:32

basant wrote:M88-4E (aka "TCO Pack") engine has potential in the range of 95-105 kN according to various reports. No info on dry thrust, so it might still not be much different.

Both the M88-3 and M88-4 are proposed developments of the M88. They do not exist as of now. Considerable resources including time will need to be put into the requisite development program to actually get a working engine. Same is the case with the GE-F414EPE.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 08:10

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes, as we all know, there is no money for MRFA.

Who said "there is no MK2" other than the IAF chief omitting it? If by that, you meant "no MK2 till 2030", then MRFA will take that long as well. So, the gap will exist, no matter how much hand-wringing we do. Its the IAF's own screw-up.

Thank you Prem-ji for recognizing that Mk2 is not dead. To echo Saurav Jha...the Mk2 is coming. But like I said, it will be delayed. And you are correct, the gap will exist. That is the situation at present. At this stage, it would be better to engage with Russia and get that Super Sukhoi upgrade going. That is as important as any other program - Tejas Mk2, Tejas Mk1A, 114 MRFA, etc.

Prem Kumar wrote:Who asked the IAF to not order Tejas-MK1 or MK1A in larger numbers? They'd rather have their pilots die in Mig-21s than give them a 5X better aircraft! A larger order would help HAL open additional lines and keep the squadron levels up.

No argument there. But that does not help the situation at present. However, the IAF still has the option of adding to the Mk1A order book of 83 Mk1As. But the IAF has to take that call. There is no indication that is going to happen.

Prem Kumar wrote:But repeated IAF Chiefs would rather intentionally starve & complain, rather than opt for a solution that stares them in the face. They don't mind sacrificing national security, the life of pilots, domestic MIC - all for what - a stupid MMRCA toy that was taken away from them!

Agree with Ramana about the Kalma quote , but its sad that the IAF chief, in his 1st address, missed out MK2. That's unpardonable.

He likely did not mention the 40 Tejas Mk1s or the HTT-40 or any other local program in his first address. That does not mean those programs are not continuing. And like Ramana-ji said, he has to talk about the MRFA at his first press conference, probably just to let the OEMs know the contest is very much still on. It is good to keep the OEMs dangling, while Air HQ forms up her plans.

* Who knew in April of 2015 that from 126 Rafales...the Govt was going to cancel the contract and purchase only 36 of them?

* Who knew - despite all the hullabaloo in the Single Engine contest (F-16 Block 70/72 versus Gripen E) - that the competition would ultimately be cancelled and replaced with 114 MRFA in which every aircraft manufacturer under the sun is now participating? Only World War II fighters are left out and perhaps the IAF should invite them as well to participate.

* Sirjee, do you remember the SE thread? It is still there in the Military Archives forum. One poster was claiming 200 F-16s and 100 F-18s for the IAF, which would be separate from an Indian Navy order of 57 F-18s for their next carrier borne fighter. He claimed that INS Vishal - armed with American fighters - were going to going to influence events all the way from Alaska to the South China Sea! He was bullish on India and was claiming Ache Din for India! Kya Hua?

* When Bhadauria Sir took over as Air Chief in Sept 2019, he clearly stated that 36 more Rafales are not coming and Dassault will have to *WIN* the contest for 114 MRFA. At last year's IAF press conference, Bhadauria Sir said that Air HQ is discussing whether to go in for more Rafales or continue with the 114 MRFA contest. At this year's press conference, the new Air Chief is stating that the IAF is looking for 114 MRFA. You want to venture an educated guess, what this Air Chief will say at next year's press conference?

So while there will be a gap this decade (to hit 42 squadrons), from where is the IAF going to find the funds for an upfront purchase of 114 MRFA? From which garden in New Delhi, is the Govt going to harvest this money from? At the end of the day, the Govt has to untie the purse strings. The service makes the technical downselect, but the Govt foots the bill. Does the Govt have $25 - $30 billion to pay for 114 MRFA?

Let us not get takleef over what the Air Chief said or did not say. I think we are unnecessarily giving ourselves blood pressure. They will go for a repeat order of Rafales, but nothing close to 114 birds. That number will be achieved, but in batches. Spread out the cost over a decade or more. But even 114 MRFA will not address the shortage. Do the math and you will clearly see that. There is no option but for Tejas Mk2.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Oct 2021 09:41

Vivek K wrote:So can the Kaveri be used in a Mig-29 with appropriate alterations to fit the available space? I would think that should be the case.

During the MMRCA drama before the down select Dassault was claiming that Rafale could be fitted with Kaveri. IAF never took up Dassault on that offer.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 08 Oct 2021 10:10

Rakesh wrote:But even 114 MRFA will not address the shortage. Do the math and you will clearly see that. There is no option but for Tejas Mk2.

Grand Admiral Sir,

I will hold you responsible if the IAF Chief does anything to the contrary.....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Oct 2021 10:42

ks_sachin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:But even 114 MRFA will not address the shortage. Do the math and you will clearly see that. There is no option but for Tejas Mk2.
Grand Admiral Sir,

I will hold you responsible if the IAF Chief does anything to the contrary.....

Did you get the mithai for submarine?

That you should put any value on the word of this reprobate.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Oct 2021 10:57

ramana wrote:Manish, Afterburner is good for takeoff and for dog fights.
So dry thrust is what matters for most flight functions.

Ramana ji, that means our Kaveri is right up there with other engines. It's dry thrust is even more than m88.

Wish they make a pilotless f16 type Tejas and do all the tests on it.

basant · Post by **basant** » 08 Oct 2021 11:05

nachiket wrote:
basant wrote:M88-4E (aka "TCO Pack") engine has potential in the range of 95-105 kN according to various reports. No info on dry thrust, so it might still not be much different.
Both the M88-3 and M88-4 are proposed developments of the M88. They do not exist as of now. Considerable resources including time will need to be put into the requisite development program to actually get a working engine. Same is the case with the GE-F414EPE.

I am not very sure, though. See this article from 2010. Probably it was not developed further:

COURCOURONNES, France: The first test flight of a Rafale fighter powered by the Snecma (Safran group) M88-4E engine (formerly designated the “TCO Pack”, for total cost of ownership) took place on March 22 atthe Istres air base in southern France.

Lasting 1 hour and 30 minutes, the flight was a total success, and was used to expand the flight envelope. The complete test campaign for the M88-4E engine comprises some 70 flights in 2010, with different engine configurations. Ten test flights have been carried out to date.

"We are satisfied with the successful initial flights of the M88-4E, the third major engine upgrade, reflecting our continuing focus on research & development. The latest evolution of the engine enables us to better meet the expectations of our customer, by helping decrease the Rafale's maintenance costs," said Didier Desnoyer, Snecma's Vice President Military Engines.

Source: Rafale Fighter Flies with Upgraded M88-4E Engine
The above was quoted in some forums with link to a Aero-India specific pdf file on Snecma website that is no more available.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Oct 2021 12:04

All this rona dona on support for future desi products is something I predicted when the new IAF chief was announced.
The die is cast, the only thing we can do is to watch how the game unfolds and prepare for the worst..

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Oct 2021 14:25

Can you elaborate? Did you know something about the new IAF chief or was it just a general observation, given that Ex-Chief Bhadauria was leaving?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Oct 2021 15:00

It was a general observation, given that the current chief had not spent any significant time in desi product development cycle, like the previous chief and had significant exposure to only russian aircrafts in his flying tenure.
The link to my original post stating my worry.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 19:34

ks_sachin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:But even 114 MRFA will not address the shortage. Do the math and you will clearly see that. There is no option but for Tejas Mk2.
Grand Admiral Sir,

I will hold you responsible if the IAF Chief does anything to the contrary.....

Sir, I will wait for my court martial! Send me to the brig, but please don't demote me

As someone with strong military affiliations such as yourself, please see this back and forth between Commodore Uday Bhaskar (retd) and Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar (retd), the former AOC of the Eastern & Western Air Commands of the Indian Air Force. Click on the link below....

https://twitter.com/prtk___/status/1444 ... 23681?s=20 ---> "We are going to decline" : @Nambitiger1

Point is that even with 114 MRFA, the IAF will not hit 42 squadrons. And if we eliminate Tejas Mk2 from the list, what aircraft is going to take her place? Another import? Let's have that discussion then. Which aircraft(s) and why? Unless the IAF is planning to breed butterflies to meet her squadron strength requirements, only Tejas Mk2 (or another Tejas variant) will foot that bill.

No one individual (even if he is Air Chief) can kill a program - local or phoren. The entire senior military and political leadership will have to support that plan. Do we have any evidence that points to that fact?

But here is the entire interview on youtube. An excellent one and must watch.

Security Analysis: Air Power and India | October 8 Review

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 19:43

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 30694?s=20 ---> The current Air Chief seems like a no-nonsense person. I quite liked his Air Force day address. It was brief and devoid of fluff. Hope to see indigenization take firm hold in the service under his watch.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 86792?s=20 ---> I will write a piece to explain why Tejas Mk2 is sine qua non* for the Air force 's future. BTW, he has mentioned Mark 2 right after taking charge.

*sine qua non ---> an essential condition; a thing that is absolutely necessary.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 19:54

SOMEONE FIND THIS VIDEO!!!

I saw this interview when he took over. I cannot find the link now.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1443793037021249536?s=20 ---> I think our steps are well known to everybody. We have signed the contract for 83 LCA; the AMCA and LCA-Mk2 are on the cards: IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari to ANI, on Indian Air Force's steps for future in the direction of 'Make in India' initiative.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 19:59

FOUND IT

@3:00 in the video. But please let us continue to demonize him over what he did *NOT* say at his maiden press conference.

As always and ON POINT, Saurav Jha has been proven right AGAIN. Thank You Jha Sir, you are a true patriot of India.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 20:15

Let us now come up with some new excuses. Let me start;

1) When he mentioned LCA Mk2, his eyes were not looking directly into the camera. So the Air Chief is a liar.

2) When he mentioned LCA Mk2, his left eye twitched and he had a twinkle in his right eye. So that means, the Air Chief is lying.

3) When he mentioned LCA Mk2, he winked at the Dassault rep (who is standing behind the camera). The Air Chief only wants phoren toys.

4) Although he mentioned LCA Mk2 at the National War Memorial, he only mentioned AMCA in his maiden press conference and omitted Tejas Mk2. So the Chief wants to import onlee. He loves Rafale and hates Tejas. Import, Import, Import!!!!!

Anybody want to add to this list? How much more of this silliness must we continue with?

I am saying this with all seriousness. Did anyone notice his body language at that maiden press conference? He was genuinely nervous. You can see that when he was shuffling those papers and he kept looking at his notes. It is O-K-A-Y. He is only human. Maaf Karo Yaar. Not everyone is media savvy like Shashi Tharoor-ji. Give the new Air Chief a break please. Tejas Mk2 was written in his read out - but in his nervousness - he overlooked it. They are fighter pilots and not TV personalities. They have tremendous confidence and laser vision focus in a cockpit, but don't expect that at a press conference. As the weeks and months pass, he will get better at his press conferences.

Please drop this tamasha and move on. दिमाग का दही हो गया (Dimaag ka Dahi ho Gaya).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 21:13

Can some of you please go visit your doctor or local pharmacy and check your blood pressure?

110/70 is considered normal. Just saying...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2021 21:22

Superb digging Rakesh. Thank you!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 21:26

Any day Karan! The idea that he willfully omitted the Tejas Mk2 at his maiden press conference does not pass the smell test.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Oct 2021 22:45

Rakesh wrote:Can some of you please go visit your doctor or local pharmacy and check your blood pressure?

110/70 is considered normal. Just saying...

Admiral on a roll!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Oct 2021 22:55

Rakesh wrote:...

Admiral Saab,

I hope you can understand the sentiments behind the folks who had panicked at the absence of Mk2 in his inaugural interview. These are folks, myself included,who have passionately and steadfastly prayed and dreamed of an IAF that stands on the strengths of Indian products and realising their true strength and potential in the process. So when one sees the probability that this vision or dream may get shattered, it is painful and hence the reaction/outcry that we saw. All the more so given how our procurement process works and how entrenched certain lobbies are.

I dont think we deserve to be reprimanded or ridiculed for our fear.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 23:18

Bala Vignesh wrote:Admiral Saab,

No Saab please

Bala Vignesh wrote:I hope you can understand the sentiments behind the folks who had panicked at the absence of Mk2 in his inaugural interview. These are folks, myself included,who have passionately and steadfastly prayed and dreamed of an IAF that stands on the strengths of Indian products and realising their true strength and potential in the process. So when one sees the probability that this vision or dream may get shattered, it is painful and hence the reaction/outcry that we saw. All the more so given how our procurement process works and how entrenched certain lobbies are.

I dont think we deserve to be reprimanded or ridiculed for our fear.

First off, it was not my intention to reprimand or ridicule you (or anyone else) for your fear. If that was the take away from my post, then mujhe maaf karo. But panicking will solve nothing. In fact, you are only giving ammunition to the American apologists on BRF who said that Mk2 will not come. Like vultures on the sidelines, they are waiting for the program to fail...to push their F-teen agenda. Don't give them ammunition please by panicking. You are also doing a disservice to all the silent lurkers on BRF, who will absorb that fear like a sponge and regurgitate that elsewhere. Please be mindful of what you post. It reverberates in places that you will never imagine. You and I are not the only ones reading the Tejas Mk2 thread. Please remember that. Know your audience and know that when you type something, it has repercussions. Create the right echo chamber and criticize with logic.

Think logically please. I told you this when you made that very first post, when Chaudhari Sir was appointed as Air Chief. He cannot end a program just because he is an Air Chief. Even the Prime Minister of India cannot do that and he is the most powerful in the government hierarchy. Even if the Air Chief comes out and says, "I am not in favour of Tejas Mk2." It will still continue. Intention is only 50% of the game, execution is the other 50%. You need the entire IAF leadership, the Raksha Mantri and his team, the Prime Minister and his office and the bureaucratic machine to come out and say this. And even after that, the opposition will cry hoarse. There will be a huge backlash. RaGa - to this day - whines and complains that NaMo stole jobs from HAL and gave to Anil Ambani over the Rafale deal. Cancel the Mk2 program and the BJP can kiss goodbye to 2024 and even 2029. The program has reached such a stage that failure is now no longer an option. What may happen is limiting the number of orders, but the IAF is in such a dire situation of aircraft...that they need new fighter aircraft. So even that will not pan out.

But there will be delays in the Mk2 program. I expect that to happen. I waiting to see what happens in December with the S-400 and see what - if any - correlation occurs in the Tejas program. My inference is that the Mk2 will arrive in a different avatar. But I don't want to put the cart before the horse. So let us wait and see.

Once again, my apologies if I hurt your feelings. It was not intentional.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 08 Oct 2021 23:30

nachiket wrote:
S_Madhukar wrote:What’s wrong with. Russki engine or French one on mk2? Ghee or nothing?
Changing the engine in a fighter program this late in development when the design is frozen and the first prototype a year away from being rolled out would be disastrous. The program would get delayed by years and probably fail. This is leaving aside the question of which engine? Neither the Russians nor the French have a ready engine which fits the size and performance requirements without requiring major design changes to the aircraft. So you would have to first pay them to develop one and then wait for them to do so. .....

Agree. Just to recall how the new Russian AL55 derivative engine for AJT got HAL in a place that 14 yrs later the plane has become irrelevant.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 09 Oct 2021 03:27

I'd give a benifit of doubt to the Air Chief here...
I have seen Dhanoa ji and Bhadauria ji often combine Tejas Mk2 with Mk1 snd 1A... They often used to say something like, " IAF will buy 'n' number of Tejas variants" etc....

I think IAF sees all variants of Tejas as a single program rather than separate Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2, which we jingos see...

I think chief was referring to all programs that IAF is supporting... So, may be he would have mentioned the current status of 'Tejas program' and went on to AMCA, LUH, LCH etc... May be...