Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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la.khan
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by la.khan »

nam wrote:We need air launch low-vis CM in hundreds, so it must be Indian developed. Just need a CM engine and a bigger SAAW.
For LCA Mk2, I thought Brahmos was a given. Can Brahmos, as it exists today launched from a Su30MKI, be ported over to LCA Mk2?

In the case of Su30MKI, ability to launch Brahmos was an afterthought, necessitating modifications to the jet. And, these modifications were made to a limited number of jets (may be 40).

I hope that is not so with LCA Mk2. I am hoping that LCA Mk2 was designed from the ground up to deliver Brahmos. Am I wrong? Imagine having 150+ aircraft that can carry Brahmos :twisted:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by John »

la.khan wrote:For LCA Mk2, I thought Brahmos was a given. Can Brahmos, as it exists today launched from a Su30MKI, be ported over to LCA Mk2?
Brahmos can only be air launched by modified Su-30mki.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

^^^
la.khan,

You are confusing Brahmos-A with Brahmos NG (aka mini). Two different missiles.

Image

One weights 2500kg while the other 1200kg.

Brahmos-A on Su-30MKI
Image
Image

Brahmos NG on Tejas
Image
Image

Another perspective, take a look at the size difference between Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk.1 to get an idea of the size difference between Brahmos-A vs Brahmos-NG.
Image
Prem Kumar
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

nam wrote:I hope when they say Scalp, they mean an Indian weapon similar to Scalp. I really don't us to spend money on integrating a super expensive silver bullet like Scalp.

We need air launch low-vis CM in hundreds, so it must be Indian developed. Just need a CM engine and a bigger SAAW.
I think, once we master stealth, we need a B2 type stealth bomb-truck that has serious tonnage in terms of gravity bombs, standoff subsonic & super/hypersonic cruise missiles. A fighter will always be limited in its tonnage capacity. Moreover, stealth & its attendant "internal weapons bay" requirement will make it nearly impossible for say the AMCA to carry a Brahmos-mini or a Nirbhay-mini. Even if they do, the payload will be minimal. There are both space & weight restrictions.

We should have started a bomb-truck program long time back, but didn't. I believe doctrinal reasons are behind it, i.e. we don't have one that involves bombers. Plus the IAF has the "fighter jock" mentality, which means that they don't give much attention to bombers. But bombers, especially the stealth variety, are invaluable in "kicking the door open" SEAD missions, destruction of the enemy's airpower on the ground & also for strategic payloads.

We should have started a B2-type project in parallel with AMCA. But now that we have so many fighter programs, this needs to unfortunately wait till at least some of them come to fruition.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by disha »

hemant_sai wrote:kes from 2023-25 disrupt MWF timelines? If yes, then DSI intakes can be scheduled for later batches of MWF may be after first 2-3 sqdns?
In addition to what Nachiket sir posted above., DSI by itself is not a holy grail. Think of putting DSI on a 4 or 4.5 generation aircraft like J-17, J-20 would be like putting an elephant howdah on a donkey. I am not mentioning J-31, since that is indeed a better-designed bird than J20.

Point is that when a stealth fighter is designed then all aspects of stealth need to be taken into account. DSI is an aspect of stealth, lowers RCS by shielding the air intakes (and the compressors). For a small-medium aircraft like Tejas in the LCA/MWF category, the benefits of just the DSI may not accrue.

Also, splitters are already designed and in EuroFighters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitter_ ... DDB_02.jpg you will notice that there are movable inlet cowls at the bottom to shape the inlet for different speeds. Additionally one can notice holes in the upper splitter. The holes in the upper inlet lip try to suck in air to create a pressure disparity and break the boundary layer.

DFI was invented for stealth and as a facet for 5G+ planes designed for stealth from ground up . To put it in 4/4.5 G planes is just gimmickery.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by darshhan »

Prem Kumar wrote:
nam wrote:I hope when they say Scalp, they mean an Indian weapon similar to Scalp. I really don't us to spend money on integrating a super expensive silver bullet like Scalp.

We need air launch low-vis CM in hundreds, so it must be Indian developed. Just need a CM engine and a bigger SAAW.
I think, once we master stealth, we need a B2 type stealth bomb-truck that has serious tonnage in terms of gravity bombs, standoff subsonic & super/hypersonic cruise missiles. A fighter will always be limited in its tonnage capacity. Moreover, stealth & its attendant "internal weapons bay" requirement will make it nearly impossible for say the AMCA to carry a Brahmos-mini or a Nirbhay-mini. Even if they do, the payload will be minimal. There are both space & weight restrictions.

We should have started a bomb-truck program long time back, but didn't. I believe doctrinal reasons are behind it, i.e. we don't have one that involves bombers. Plus the IAF has the "fighter jock" mentality, which means that they don't give much attention to bombers. But bombers, especially the stealth variety, are invaluable in "kicking the door open" SEAD missions, destruction of the enemy's airpower on the ground & also for strategic payloads.

We should have started a B2-type project in parallel with AMCA. But now that we have so many fighter programs, this needs to unfortunately wait till at least some of them come to fruition.
Just scale up Ghatak UCAV to enable it to carry about 5 tons of munitions. I doubt if there is a requirement of a separate manned Bomber program.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by la.khan »

John: Thanks for the reply. So, Brahmos-A is limited by its delivery platform (only Su30MKI) and only 40 of these :(

srai: Thanks for the correction. I thought Brahmos-A and Brahmos-NG were the same. My bad. So, Brahmos-A is meant only for Su30MKI and Brahmos NG, still under development, will be armed on a host of IAF aircraft (Su30MKI, Tejas, Rafale, LCA MWF, among others). I can't wait for Brahmos NG to take flight, tested, deployed. This makes LCA MWF all the more important in IAF's scheme of things (one of the pictures you posted had LCA MWF carry one Brahmos NG under each wing :twisted: )

I hope we manufacture 150+ LCA MWF and a thousand Brahmos NG missiles 8)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Brahmos A can be optimized significantly. But I have been hearing about brahmos mini and NG for so long that I have given up hope. This is what happens when you don't have design autonomy.

I have much more hope on LFRJ-based solution.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

darshhan wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: Just scale up Ghatak UCAV to enable it to carry about 5 tons of munitions. I doubt if there is a requirement of a separate manned Bomber program.
2 reasons why the UCAV approach is limited:

1) We will need strategic payloads to be carried by manned aircraft
2) I doubt if UCAVs will be trusted with cruise missiles anytime soon

IMO, there is a definite requirement for a manned, stealth bomber program. From a nuclear triad perspective, this will soon be a must-have. A stealthy bomber will be a highly survivable part of the triad. Once airborne, they are a practically invisible deterrent, much like N-subs.

A gravity N-bomb carrying Rafale or Su-30 MKI will find it nearly impossible to hit Beijing. No such issues with a stealth bomber. It gives us a range of additional options. We probably need not more than say 1 - 2 squadrons of this type.
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 27 Jan 2021 12:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Indranil wrote:Brahmos A can be optimized significantly. But I have been hearing about brahmos mini and NG for so long that I have given up hope. This is what happens when you don't have design autonomy.

I have much more hope on LFRJ-based solution.
Agreed. I'd even bet on Rudram-3 as a possible alternative to Brahmos-NG. Higher range than Brahmos, higher speed. Warhead size might be the only issue, but even there, for a large variety of targets, a Rudram will suffice
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sivab »

Indranil wrote:Brahmos A can be optimized significantly. But I have been hearing about brahmos mini and NG for so long that I have given up hope. This is what happens when you don't have design autonomy.

I have much more hope on LFRJ-based solution.
??? Brahmos-NG was always advertised to be ready for testing only in 2024. Here are couple of different reports from quality reporters for that date. And this was even before corona. It is a completely new design at almost half the weight and half the dimensions. I doubt it can be designed and developed any faster.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/f ... 2019-07-13
https://www.onmanorama.com/news/india/2 ... ishra.html
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by darshhan »

Prem Kumar wrote:
darshhan wrote:
2 reasons why the UCAV approach is limited:

1) We will need strategic payloads to be carried by manned aircraft
2) I doubt if UCAVs will be trusted with cruise missiles anytime soon

IMO, there is a definite requirement for a manned, stealth bomber program. From a nuclear triad perspective, this will soon be a must-have. A stealthy bomber will be a highly survivable part of the triad. Once airborne, they are a practically invisible deterrent, much like N-subs.

A gravity N-bomb carrying Rafale or Su-30 MKI will find it nearly impossible to hit Beijing. No such issues with a stealth bomber. It gives us a range of additional options. We probably need not more than say 1 - 2 squadrons of this type.
Brother, The nuclear triad concept makes sense for a $20 trillion economy and not for a basketcase economy like us with less than $3 trillion economy. Even by 2030 we will be still at around $7 trillion dollar gdp. For us this is just vishwaguru level delusion.

Again why do you want to carry cruise missiles within a stealthy bomber(manned or unmanned). If they are still dependent on cruise missiles to neutralise targets, then what is the point of uber expensive stealth. Just use your regular strike aircrafts to lob these cruise missiles from 1000-1500 kms. No need for stealth.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Yagnasri »

One mango question. Whether the designers made any additional effort to mitigate the risk of sanctions on GE Engine which requires us to use any other design or for the use of any future Bharat designed and made engine both of which may not be exact copy of the GE 414?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

darshhan wrote:
Brother, The nuclear triad concept makes sense for a $20 trillion economy and not for a basketcase economy like us with less than $3 trillion economy. Even by 2030 we will be still at around $7 trillion dollar gdp. For us this is just vishwaguru level delusion.

Again why do you want to carry cruise missiles within a stealthy bomber(manned or unmanned). If they are still dependent on cruise missiles to neutralise targets, then what is the point of uber expensive stealth. Just use your regular strike aircrafts to lob these cruise missiles from 1000-1500 kms. No need for stealth.
Are you saying India does not have a nuclear triad strike force in place ? Stealth aircraft are for penetrating highly defended SAM bubbles as in the case of China.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

darshhan wrote: Brother, The nuclear triad concept makes sense for a $20 trillion economy and not for a basketcase economy like us with less than $3 trillion economy. Even by 2030 we will be still at around $7 trillion dollar gdp. For us this is just vishwaguru level delusion.

Again why do you want to carry cruise missiles within a stealthy bomber(manned or unmanned). If they are still dependent on cruise missiles to neutralise targets, then what is the point of uber expensive stealth. Just use your regular strike aircrafts to lob these cruise missiles from 1000-1500 kms. No need for stealth.
Notwithstanding your comment about our economy, having a Nuclear Triad is a stated objective of our doctrine. We invested heavily in N-subs (even when we couldn't afford to), so that the triad becomes a reality. Our nuclear triad is a reality today

CMs can be used for any number of scenarios: conventional or otherwise. Cruise missiles can also be stealthy & tree hugging. For your information, the USA is building the JASSM for use in B2 among other aircraft. And a separate Long Range Standoff missile as N-armed cruise-missile
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by darshhan »

kit wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Brother, The nuclear triad concept makes sense for a $20 trillion economy and not for a basketcase economy like us with less than $3 trillion economy. Even by 2030 we will be still at around $7 trillion dollar gdp. For us this is just vishwaguru level delusion.

Again why do you want to carry cruise missiles within a stealthy bomber(manned or unmanned). If they are still dependent on cruise missiles to neutralise targets, then what is the point of uber expensive stealth. Just use your regular strike aircrafts to lob these cruise missiles from 1000-1500 kms. No need for stealth.
Are you saying India does not have a nuclear triad strike force in place ? Stealth aircraft are for penetrating highly defended SAM bubbles as in the case of China.
I meant nuclear triad which includes stealth bomber like B-2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

nam wrote:I hope when they say Scalp, they mean an Indian weapon similar to Scalp. I really don't us to spend money on integrating a super expensive silver bullet like Scalp.

We need air launch low-vis CM in hundreds, so it must be Indian developed. Just need a CM engine and a bigger SAAW.
It makes sense to integrate a proven weapon like Scalp. It is expensive, but will be bought in some numbers for the Rafale fleet. If the Tejas Mk2 can use that weapon, it only improves it's flexibility. Besides, the IAF is the one that specified the weapons, including Scalp, to be integrated.

Nirbhay ALCM would be the indigenous alternative to the Scalp. Cheaper and longer ranged, possibly. That and Brahmos NG, which is targeted for even the Tejas Mk1A.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

From the interview it's clear that lots of progress has been made on the Tejas Mk2.

Points made by the Project Director, Tejas Mk2

Tejas Mk2 updates

- Feb 2020 was when Tejas Mk2 was nearing the PDR just before lockdown.
- During lockdown, the team of Tejas Mk2 worked on the outcome of PDR.
- After the PDR was crossed, they started working on Detailed Design activities.
- Configuration is frozen and Inboards finalized.
- Also, lot of effort put towards maintanability assessment of various systems.
- Today at CDR stage, initiated some of the sub systems CDR.
- And now progressing towards drawing release.
- Some of the specific parts, metal cutting has already started
- Final stage of finalizing the cockpit configuration.
- Sensors and antennae locations finalized, masking studies have been completed for various antennae.
- Drawing release process has been finalized.
- The procurement of raw materials and availability assessment has been completed.
- Various systems design reviews have been completed and detailed design has been initiated and moving towards Critical Design Review.
- Also started the finalization of ESOP (Equipment Standard of Preparation) for the first flight.
- Right now the team is focusing on the completion of the Detailed Design and taking up the aircraft level CDR and going ahead with metal cutting and moving towards assembling the aircraft and next year August to have a rollout of the first Tejas Mk2.

- Features of the Tejas Mk2 include reduced drag which has reduced the transonic acceleration time, IRST, MAWS, Advanced EW suite with internal jammer and RWR, CMDS.

- Weapons will include western weapons, Russian and Indian weapons.
- Feasibility studies have been completed on various weapons integration with the Tejas Mk2. Scalp, Crystal Maze, Spice 1000, Astra, Rudram 1, 2, 3, indigenous bombs, Nirbhay ALCM and Brahmos NG.
- Standoff weaponry to allow targeting from more than 570 km range.
- There will he hardpoints that are designed to be able to carry 1800 kgs of weapons
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

darshhan wrote:
kit wrote:
Are you saying India does not have a nuclear triad strike force in place ? Stealth aircraft are for penetrating highly defended SAM bubbles as in the case of China.
I meant nuclear triad which includes stealth bomber like B-2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_triad

I think you meant dedicated bombers., in India's case this is done by a special fleet of modified Sukhois and possibly Rafales optimized for nuclear delivery role
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

...

There will he hardpoints that are designed to be able to carry 1800 kgs of weapons
Seems like we are going to see very large external fuel tanks on MWF. The other would be multi-carriage load.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

Yagnasri wrote:One mango question. Whether the designers made any additional effort to mitigate the risk of sanctions on GE Engine which requires us to use any other design or for the use of any future Bharat designed and made engine both of which may not be exact copy of the GE 414?
Costs time and money for little gain.

You guys are worried about US “sanctions” of GE 414. If there were sanctions it would have a much wider crippling effect on the IAF/IN/IA: C-17, C-130, P8I, Romeo, Apache, Chinook, plus fighters like Tejas (and in future MWF, AMCA).

The future is intertwined. Both India and US need each other.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by John »

sivab wrote:
Indranil wrote:Brahmos A can be optimized significantly. But I have been hearing about brahmos mini and NG for so long that I have given up hope. This is what happens when you don't have design autonomy.

I have much more hope on LFRJ-based solution.
??? Brahmos-NG was always advertised to be ready for testing only in 2024. Here are couple of different reports from quality reporters for that date. And this was even before corona. It is a completely new design at almost half the weight and half the dimensions. I doubt it can be designed and developed any faster.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/f ... 2019-07-13
https://www.onmanorama.com/news/india/2 ... ishra.html
Yes keep in mind Brahmos was based on Oniks missile where as Brahmos-ng will entirely new missile, I am not optimistic on seeing this inducted before 2028.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/13 ... 49345?s=20 ---> Another takeaway from @akananth's ADA series: ADA is now quite confident as far as Tejas Mk2 is concerned, delays unlikely, it will roll out in less than 18 months. IAF should now go for 2-3 more Rafale squadrons and should end this MMRCA-2 drama. Now, the Focus should be Tejas Mk2!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Yagnasri »

Why the need for 2-3 Sq of Rafale. We can commit the money for installing additional production lines and orders for Mk2. If Mk2 is M2k of 21st Century, then we are ok against pakis and lizards with Mk2 in large numbers. They do not have anything which can counter that in near horizon except so-called 5th Gen lizards.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Yagnasri wrote:Why the need for 2-3 Sq of Rafale. We can commit the money for installing additional production lines and orders for Mk2. If Mk2 is M2k of 21st Century, then we are ok against pakis and lizards with Mk2 in large numbers. They do not have anything which can counter that in near horizon except so-called 5th Gen lizards.
Saurav Jha will be addressing your concern in his upcoming article.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/135 ... 71019?s=20 ---> My next piece on domestic military-industrial issues will explain why the Tejas Mk2 will also have to be supported, the MRFA (MMRCA 2.0) tender notwithstanding.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Upcoming Tejas Mk2 model at Aero India 2021...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtER3RFWMAA ... name=large --->

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sankum »

Tejas mk2 model shows Astra mk1 aam on outer wing station on right side and asraam aam on left outer wing station apart from both wingtip stations.

JayS wish for Astra aam on outer wing station has come true.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Tejas Mark II to roll out next year; high-speed trials in 2023, says HAL Chief R Madhavan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 612099.cms
31 Jan 2021
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

^^^
Cockpit canopy clearance above pilot looks huge!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Davidrock »

sooraj wrote:...
Absolute piece of beauty and I love the paint colour.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

srai wrote:^^^
Cockpit canopy clearance above pilot looks huge!
That's just because they didn't do a good job of putting a pilot in the seat in that model. The model is very well made, but the pilot in the cockpit is in an excessively reclined position. There won't be so much clearance for the pilot's helmet with the canopy.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

I wish Mk2 has a more rounded canopy.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by dkhare »

Love the model!

Some observations and questions:
1. I see some fuselage wing blending on the lower side. Is that real or just the angle at which the picture was taken?
2. New actuator on top of the wing close to the body for the flaps? It wasnt there in the Mark I.
3. Wonder if the canards can be used as an additional air brake after touch down to reduce speed further. Wonder if they would slow down the aircraft enough to eliminate the need for a parachute from the base of the tail fin. Although parachutes reduce wear on brake pads...
4. That base of the tail fin can then be used for more EW stuff - SPJ etc.
5. Fairly clean tail fin - no electronics so far in the model at least.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

sankum wrote:Tejas mk2 model shows Astra mk1 aam on outer wing station on right side and asraam aam on left outer wing station apart from both wingtip stations.

JayS wish for Astra aam on outer wing station has come true.
Thanks for pointing out saar. I had totally missed it. Good this thing is clarified now. Too much nonsense has been peddled on account of lack of official info on whether the outboard pylons could carry BVR or not by a certain troll and those who fell for it without using own brains.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sankum »

Impressive weapons loadout.

Pleasent surprise that front fuselage side weapons stations can carry 1000lb bombs and outer wing station can carry 250kg HSLD bombs.

Seems internal cannon is absent. Therefore provision for podded 30mm cannon.

No detailed info on MTOW, empty weight etc for both AMCA and Tejas mk2 so far.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Podded Gun, means Bolt on Bolt off so will be kept for specific missions only? and intretsing moving away from GSH 23 mm to GSH 30 mm heavy canon?

Can Asraam be replaced with IR Astra? or even MICA
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by la.khan »

I hope the picture above of LCA Mk2 with all the weapons it can/meant to deliver is true :eek: Look at the options any airbase commander has if/when called to action :shock: I get most of the weapons are bombs or missiles. But what are
1. TARA
2. Lizard. Is this desi or imported? Who came up with that name? An award to person who named it lizard. On BRF, lizard refers to a neighbour. I hope the lizard has the range to hit the lizard :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Posted by Indranil on Twitter..love the dual rack pylons for the Astra Mk1! And the bulbous head drop tanks that are optimized for reduced drag.

Image
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