Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Can also mean RR engine in the LCA MK2. Uncle Sam is very unpredictable.
Last edited by Vips on 05 May 2021 19:33, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
^^^
Too late for Mk2.
Too late for Mk2.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Stunning work and a stunning looking fighter!
Credit - Kuntal Biswas
Credit - Kuntal Biswas
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
More of the Tejas Mk2 stunner..looks so much better than the Tejas Mk1 in nearly every respect, including the longer landing gear oleos.
Courtesy : Bleh @ DFI
Courtesy : Bleh @ DFI
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Tejas Mk2 latest render from Bleh & Kuntal Biswas @DFI. Canards, canopy frame modified in the latest iteration.
Looks absolutely splendid! A worthy replacement to 2 of the most beautiful fighters ever designed, the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29.
Looks absolutely splendid! A worthy replacement to 2 of the most beautiful fighters ever designed, the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
The rear end seems to resemble the F-16!
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Because it has an exhaust?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Put the two next to each other and you may see similarities. But I ill give you your point - they both have an exhaust yes !
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://resonantnews.com/2021/05/28/tej ... ssion=true
Tejas Mk II (MWF)
By – VIKAS UTTAMRAO THOMBARE
The Tejas MWF (Medium Weight Fighter) is a planned single engine 4.5 generation delta wing (tail less) multi role fighter jet designed by ADA (aeronautical development agency) along with HAL for IAF (Indian Air Force) intended to replace the aging Mirage-2000s, SEPECAT Jaguars, &MIG-29s presently in service with IAF.
DEVELOPMENT AND HISTORY
In 2009, MOD (Ministry of Defense) sanctioned the Mark 2 iteration which was to serve merely as a direct upgrade to Tejas mk 1. The primary stated objective was to replace the less powerful GE F404 engine was with the much more powerful GE F414. A concurrent objective was to incorporate better avionics while substantially increasing indigenous components involved in manufacturing.
However, later in 2016 when Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) AKA MRCA tender, was withdrawn in July 2015 , the IAF, increasingly disconcerted by the depleting squadrons and dwindling numbers of its operational strength, decided to change its qualitative requirements and opted to increase Tejas mk 2’s weight from light to medium category (17.5 tonnes) , and HAL-ADA was sent back to drawing board to redesign the airframe to incorporate more advanced systems so that the Tejas 2.0 could become a true successor to the existing and rapidly ageing mishmash of combat aircrafts available( Mirage-2000s, SEPECAT Jaguars and MIG-29s). In effect, the HAL-ADA was instructed to design a completely new machine.
DESIGN
Since it was going to be a Sub 17.5-ton aircraft, the decision was taken to install the UTTAM AESA radar onboard the new MWF (Medium weight fighter) by adjusting the T-R modules count. That was a deliberate and prescient choice because first planned flight of MWF was to be in 2023, and that was when UTTAM radar too was expected to be certified for operations.
Also, what many don’t know is that HAL Tejas (as originally designed) incorporated close coupled canards but that feature was subsequently discarded owing to the complexities involved in optimizing the control surfaces. However, the MWF will incorporate fully functional close coupled canards similar to those seen on the Dassault Rafales which will enable the MWF to perform low speed maneuvers even more effectively and efficiently unlike those on Eurofighter typhoons whose canards are only used for breaking purpose when it hits the runway.
Additionally, the MWF will also feature retractable Air to air refueling boom which is designed to increase its aerodynamic performance, as well, as incorporate indigenous OBOGS (onboard oxygen generator system) that would increase combat range and, most importantly, reduce pilot fatigue.
Further, the MWF has an increased number of weapon stations (up from 7 on Tejas HAL to 11 on the MWF) thanks to added hardpoints on wing tip pylons that allow it carry more A-2A missiles. Moreover, the MWF features a much higher percentage of composites than Tejas mk 1 which, in turn, should significantly reduce its RCS, weight, maintenance cost while appreciably increasing its weapon carrying capacity.
In keeping with similar cutting-edge platforms, the aircraft is to be equipped with an artificial intelligence based “optimally manned” cockpit. The advanced design of the cockpit aims to allow the ground control to take over the controls of the aircraft, such as in critical eventualities where the pilot is rendered unconscious, after being alerted by a sensor installed in the helmet worn by the said pilot.
The NEED for The MWF (Is it necessary?)
Most know that the SU-30 MKI is a most potent twin engine heavy fighter jet, but what many do not know is that it costs a whopping $12000(approx.)/hour to operate while the Rafale costs nearly USD $16500/hour. Hence a more cost-effective alternative is indeed essential to perform combat patrols that may stretch for hours at a time (A role hitherto performed by aircrafts like the aging MIG-21). Such strategic application of the MWF will allow us to keep our prized assets, like SU-30s, on operational standby which can be then deployed tactically upon detection of credible threats, as was done in response to the PAF intrusions post Balakot. Such arrangements have two primary benefits; one, reduce operational costs; and two, allow optimum deployment of our vital air assets.
PROPULSION
In 2008, After evaluation and acceptance of technical offers for both the Euro jet EJ200 and the General Electric F414, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE’s F414 was declared as the lowest bidder.
MWF will incorporate one of the world’s most reliable engines, the GE F414 INS6 (Indian variant) that is shared by even the Korean KAI-KF/X, AMCA mk 1, F/A-18’s and TEDBF among many others.
MWF will have an increased fuel capacity which will eventually result in enhanced range.
KEY FEATURES
An indigenous Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system developed by BHEL. The same is being considered for the planned Super Sukhoi upgrade. A next generation cockpit whose mockup was showcased at Aero India. It features wide screen MFD, an HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) and an extensive use of advanced AI to reduce pilot fatigue.May incorporate the Thales X-guard towed decoy system (the same as used on Rafales).An indigenously designed and developed Early Warning (EW) system which will be incorporated in the airframe itself. Much more advanced & capable than its previous versions. Will not feature the nose cone probe which is located in front of radome and issued for wind speed and altitude measurement and is displayed on HUD. This new adjustment will be relocated to the airframe and radome junction.Next gen Heads Up Display (HUD), developed jointly by DRDO and Elbit system, Israel, on helmets designed to increase pilot’s situational awareness.A top speed of 1.8 Mach. It is so because according to research and surveys, it is found that 1.8 Mach is most efficient speed as it puts the least stress on airframesAlso, thanks to to increased MTOW, the MWF will feature an elongated reinforced spine that allows it to carry more sophisticated sensors and equipment internally, leaving the vacated hardpoints free for mounting additional armaments.
But most importantly, the one defining aspect that we must stress upon is that Tejas is an indigenous platform and India has its IPR (intellectual property rights) thus major upgrades can be performed easily at short notices and will substantially eliminate the scope of delays. The same is not always possible on an imported platform as such upgrades require the OEM’s consent. It is a frustrating process as is borne out by the challenges being presently faced with the Super Sukhoi upgrade.
Also, there will be higher work share of private companies
WEAPONS PACKAGE
The design of Tejas mk 2 has been frozen and will incorporate most major weapon systems that are already in service with Indian air force. Tejas Mk2 will also focus more on the indigenously made weapons that will feature in Tejas Mk1A and MWF will include some of the standoff weapons (?)included with the recently inducted Dassault Rafale fighter jets.
Gun type: – Gsh-23 cannon (internal or pod based)
Number of hardpoints: 13
(Since the radar going onboard MWF will be indigenous UTTAM AESA radar, India can fully customize the weapons package that is most suited for its operational needs)
Indian standoff weapons systems like Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW), Rudram 1 Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) along with Rudram 2 and Rudram 3 ARM Family that are still under development also has been cleared for the Tejas Mk2 fleet. Coming to the Air-to-Air missiles, Tejas Mk2 will stick to the Indigenously developed Astra Mk1 (110km) and Astra Mk2 (160km) BVR-AAMs along with Astra-IIR (60km) for Short to Medium Range engagements. Astra Mk3 (340km) a Very long-range BVR-AAM that is still under development will also see service in the Tejas Mk2 fleet when it is available. Also, additional systems like crystal maze, spice 2000, Russian KH-31 anti-ship missile along with Meteor and SCALP may also eventually find their place onboard Tejas mk2 aka MWF
CONTROVERSY WITH MWF AND HAL
One controversy that is often fanned by those arguing against the induction of the MWF in the IAF is that HAL is perhaps the unduly optimistic with is projected timeline, apropos, first prototype in 2022 and first flight by 2023. (HAL is projecting viz metal cutting in 2021: Makes no syntactic or semantic sense). In my opinion, no, it is not a mere pipedream; I contend, instead, that HAL has the required foresight and the resources to meet every one of its objectives. They can achieve this fluently. key points that support these arguments are: –
HAL will act only as the lead integrator and will source major components (LRU’s) to private companies which, in turn, will reduce delays and increase production.A few of those are:Wings from L&TMiddle fuselage from VEM technologies Rear fuselage from Alpha techFront fuselage from Dynamitic technologies
Further, the MWF seeks to integrate the majority of applied technologies (RAM, avionics, sensors and know how) that DRDO has been working on for the past two decades and that will greatly reduce the time spent R&D, a factor most responsible for delays. It must be noted that the Tejas mk 1 took 15 years only because India chose to manufacture everything from the scratch and many sanctions were imposed on India after 1999 Pokhran test further exacerbated the process. Additionally, HAL will also take advantage of diverse MSME chains that too will further reduce production delays.
MWF vs LCA Tejas mk1
See link in original source
VERDICT
India is undergoing massive changes in its aviation sector as India is about to roll out six major aerospace projects namely: –
Tejas mk 1ATejas mk 2AMCATEDBFNAL SARAS mk 1NAL SARAS mk 2NTA-90
These will boost Indian aerospace sector and should go a long way in turning India into a self-reliant powerhouse in the aerospace sector. At the risk of stating the obvious, it is imperative that the MWF program is allowed to proceed unimpeded because any setback, if not handled delicately and judiciously, will disturb all the programs listed above, and derail every one of those projects since they are all interconnected to a considerable extent. Inversely, every successful step in the right direction stands to increase the morale manifold, as well as make the IAF a strategic asset par
elance in the coming years. If all goes according to the plan, the formidable composition of the IAF in future will truly be ‘neighbor’s envy, nation’s pride’
Expected offensive fleet composition
272 – Su- 30 mki36+114 – Rafale (most probable winner)83 – Tejas mk 1A40 – Tejas mk1200- Tejas mk 2 (MWF)120- AMCA mk 1
Tejas Mk II (MWF)
By – VIKAS UTTAMRAO THOMBARE
The Tejas MWF (Medium Weight Fighter) is a planned single engine 4.5 generation delta wing (tail less) multi role fighter jet designed by ADA (aeronautical development agency) along with HAL for IAF (Indian Air Force) intended to replace the aging Mirage-2000s, SEPECAT Jaguars, &MIG-29s presently in service with IAF.
DEVELOPMENT AND HISTORY
In 2009, MOD (Ministry of Defense) sanctioned the Mark 2 iteration which was to serve merely as a direct upgrade to Tejas mk 1. The primary stated objective was to replace the less powerful GE F404 engine was with the much more powerful GE F414. A concurrent objective was to incorporate better avionics while substantially increasing indigenous components involved in manufacturing.
However, later in 2016 when Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) AKA MRCA tender, was withdrawn in July 2015 , the IAF, increasingly disconcerted by the depleting squadrons and dwindling numbers of its operational strength, decided to change its qualitative requirements and opted to increase Tejas mk 2’s weight from light to medium category (17.5 tonnes) , and HAL-ADA was sent back to drawing board to redesign the airframe to incorporate more advanced systems so that the Tejas 2.0 could become a true successor to the existing and rapidly ageing mishmash of combat aircrafts available( Mirage-2000s, SEPECAT Jaguars and MIG-29s). In effect, the HAL-ADA was instructed to design a completely new machine.
DESIGN
Since it was going to be a Sub 17.5-ton aircraft, the decision was taken to install the UTTAM AESA radar onboard the new MWF (Medium weight fighter) by adjusting the T-R modules count. That was a deliberate and prescient choice because first planned flight of MWF was to be in 2023, and that was when UTTAM radar too was expected to be certified for operations.
Also, what many don’t know is that HAL Tejas (as originally designed) incorporated close coupled canards but that feature was subsequently discarded owing to the complexities involved in optimizing the control surfaces. However, the MWF will incorporate fully functional close coupled canards similar to those seen on the Dassault Rafales which will enable the MWF to perform low speed maneuvers even more effectively and efficiently unlike those on Eurofighter typhoons whose canards are only used for breaking purpose when it hits the runway.
Additionally, the MWF will also feature retractable Air to air refueling boom which is designed to increase its aerodynamic performance, as well, as incorporate indigenous OBOGS (onboard oxygen generator system) that would increase combat range and, most importantly, reduce pilot fatigue.
Further, the MWF has an increased number of weapon stations (up from 7 on Tejas HAL to 11 on the MWF) thanks to added hardpoints on wing tip pylons that allow it carry more A-2A missiles. Moreover, the MWF features a much higher percentage of composites than Tejas mk 1 which, in turn, should significantly reduce its RCS, weight, maintenance cost while appreciably increasing its weapon carrying capacity.
In keeping with similar cutting-edge platforms, the aircraft is to be equipped with an artificial intelligence based “optimally manned” cockpit. The advanced design of the cockpit aims to allow the ground control to take over the controls of the aircraft, such as in critical eventualities where the pilot is rendered unconscious, after being alerted by a sensor installed in the helmet worn by the said pilot.
The NEED for The MWF (Is it necessary?)
Most know that the SU-30 MKI is a most potent twin engine heavy fighter jet, but what many do not know is that it costs a whopping $12000(approx.)/hour to operate while the Rafale costs nearly USD $16500/hour. Hence a more cost-effective alternative is indeed essential to perform combat patrols that may stretch for hours at a time (A role hitherto performed by aircrafts like the aging MIG-21). Such strategic application of the MWF will allow us to keep our prized assets, like SU-30s, on operational standby which can be then deployed tactically upon detection of credible threats, as was done in response to the PAF intrusions post Balakot. Such arrangements have two primary benefits; one, reduce operational costs; and two, allow optimum deployment of our vital air assets.
PROPULSION
In 2008, After evaluation and acceptance of technical offers for both the Euro jet EJ200 and the General Electric F414, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE’s F414 was declared as the lowest bidder.
MWF will incorporate one of the world’s most reliable engines, the GE F414 INS6 (Indian variant) that is shared by even the Korean KAI-KF/X, AMCA mk 1, F/A-18’s and TEDBF among many others.
MWF will have an increased fuel capacity which will eventually result in enhanced range.
KEY FEATURES
An indigenous Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system developed by BHEL. The same is being considered for the planned Super Sukhoi upgrade. A next generation cockpit whose mockup was showcased at Aero India. It features wide screen MFD, an HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) and an extensive use of advanced AI to reduce pilot fatigue.May incorporate the Thales X-guard towed decoy system (the same as used on Rafales).An indigenously designed and developed Early Warning (EW) system which will be incorporated in the airframe itself. Much more advanced & capable than its previous versions. Will not feature the nose cone probe which is located in front of radome and issued for wind speed and altitude measurement and is displayed on HUD. This new adjustment will be relocated to the airframe and radome junction.Next gen Heads Up Display (HUD), developed jointly by DRDO and Elbit system, Israel, on helmets designed to increase pilot’s situational awareness.A top speed of 1.8 Mach. It is so because according to research and surveys, it is found that 1.8 Mach is most efficient speed as it puts the least stress on airframesAlso, thanks to to increased MTOW, the MWF will feature an elongated reinforced spine that allows it to carry more sophisticated sensors and equipment internally, leaving the vacated hardpoints free for mounting additional armaments.
But most importantly, the one defining aspect that we must stress upon is that Tejas is an indigenous platform and India has its IPR (intellectual property rights) thus major upgrades can be performed easily at short notices and will substantially eliminate the scope of delays. The same is not always possible on an imported platform as such upgrades require the OEM’s consent. It is a frustrating process as is borne out by the challenges being presently faced with the Super Sukhoi upgrade.
Also, there will be higher work share of private companies
WEAPONS PACKAGE
The design of Tejas mk 2 has been frozen and will incorporate most major weapon systems that are already in service with Indian air force. Tejas Mk2 will also focus more on the indigenously made weapons that will feature in Tejas Mk1A and MWF will include some of the standoff weapons (?)included with the recently inducted Dassault Rafale fighter jets.
Gun type: – Gsh-23 cannon (internal or pod based)
Number of hardpoints: 13
(Since the radar going onboard MWF will be indigenous UTTAM AESA radar, India can fully customize the weapons package that is most suited for its operational needs)
Indian standoff weapons systems like Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW), Rudram 1 Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) along with Rudram 2 and Rudram 3 ARM Family that are still under development also has been cleared for the Tejas Mk2 fleet. Coming to the Air-to-Air missiles, Tejas Mk2 will stick to the Indigenously developed Astra Mk1 (110km) and Astra Mk2 (160km) BVR-AAMs along with Astra-IIR (60km) for Short to Medium Range engagements. Astra Mk3 (340km) a Very long-range BVR-AAM that is still under development will also see service in the Tejas Mk2 fleet when it is available. Also, additional systems like crystal maze, spice 2000, Russian KH-31 anti-ship missile along with Meteor and SCALP may also eventually find their place onboard Tejas mk2 aka MWF
CONTROVERSY WITH MWF AND HAL
One controversy that is often fanned by those arguing against the induction of the MWF in the IAF is that HAL is perhaps the unduly optimistic with is projected timeline, apropos, first prototype in 2022 and first flight by 2023. (HAL is projecting viz metal cutting in 2021: Makes no syntactic or semantic sense). In my opinion, no, it is not a mere pipedream; I contend, instead, that HAL has the required foresight and the resources to meet every one of its objectives. They can achieve this fluently. key points that support these arguments are: –
HAL will act only as the lead integrator and will source major components (LRU’s) to private companies which, in turn, will reduce delays and increase production.A few of those are:Wings from L&TMiddle fuselage from VEM technologies Rear fuselage from Alpha techFront fuselage from Dynamitic technologies
Further, the MWF seeks to integrate the majority of applied technologies (RAM, avionics, sensors and know how) that DRDO has been working on for the past two decades and that will greatly reduce the time spent R&D, a factor most responsible for delays. It must be noted that the Tejas mk 1 took 15 years only because India chose to manufacture everything from the scratch and many sanctions were imposed on India after 1999 Pokhran test further exacerbated the process. Additionally, HAL will also take advantage of diverse MSME chains that too will further reduce production delays.
MWF vs LCA Tejas mk1
See link in original source
VERDICT
India is undergoing massive changes in its aviation sector as India is about to roll out six major aerospace projects namely: –
Tejas mk 1ATejas mk 2AMCATEDBFNAL SARAS mk 1NAL SARAS mk 2NTA-90
These will boost Indian aerospace sector and should go a long way in turning India into a self-reliant powerhouse in the aerospace sector. At the risk of stating the obvious, it is imperative that the MWF program is allowed to proceed unimpeded because any setback, if not handled delicately and judiciously, will disturb all the programs listed above, and derail every one of those projects since they are all interconnected to a considerable extent. Inversely, every successful step in the right direction stands to increase the morale manifold, as well as make the IAF a strategic asset par
elance in the coming years. If all goes according to the plan, the formidable composition of the IAF in future will truly be ‘neighbor’s envy, nation’s pride’
Expected offensive fleet composition
272 – Su- 30 mki36+114 – Rafale (most probable winner)83 – Tejas mk 1A40 – Tejas mk1200- Tejas mk 2 (MWF)120- AMCA mk 1
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Final product... (@Kuntalbiswas is on the forum too now)Kartik wrote:Tejas Mk2 latest render from Bleh & Kuntal Biswas @DFI. Canards, canopy frame modified in the latest iteration.
Looks absolutely splendid! A worthy replacement to 2 of the most beautiful fighters ever designed, the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Manish, I expect Tejas Mk2 to be around 170.
Thanks for the nice summary.
You can also add the C-290 transport plane for replacing the An fleet.
Thanks for the nice summary.
You can also add the C-290 transport plane for replacing the An fleet.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
As per Kuntal Biswas Twitter account the first flight of Tejas Mk2 has taken place.
https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas
is there something I am not getting, is it some joke or Photoshop pics ?
https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas
is there something I am not getting, is it some joke or Photoshop pics ?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
He might be suffering from time dilation.
As even hal was saying that it will unveil the first prototype by 2022.
As even hal was saying that it will unveil the first prototype by 2022.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Tongue in cheek. His render shows a Mk2 on it's first flight. It is not a picture.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
i think he kept it ambiguous and was having fun with his imagination and other fan bois!Aditya_V wrote:As per Kuntal Biswas Twitter account the first flight of Tejas Mk2 has taken place.
https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas
is there something I am not getting, is it some joke or Photoshop pics ?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Actually Kuntal has referred to his final render as the first flight in a few tweets.
For him actualising the details was a mammoth effort.
I also must admit that for a second or two my heart wishes that HAL had managed to surprise everyone.
But then i saw the quality of the air and sky at 200 feet and knew... too blue.
For him actualising the details was a mammoth effort.
I also must admit that for a second or two my heart wishes that HAL had managed to surprise everyone.
But then i saw the quality of the air and sky at 200 feet and knew... too blue.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Pratyush wrote:Because it has an exhaust?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I know what I'm about to write will not be popular here, but there are certain noises coming out from rather diverse areas that seem ominous:
1. The latest news coming out of HAL about delay in delivery of the mk2 PV to December and production variant to around 2029 DOES NOT BODE WELL.
2. Statements made by US rep. on committee on foreign affairs is strongly hinting at CAATSA based sanctions resulting from S400.
3. Russia unveils a stealth single engined LCA probably available at the same time as mk2.
The first point suggests that HAL might find it more convenient to continue the MKI line with another TOT screwdrivergiri setup via Su-75. The IAF might just favor this considering its healthy caution wrt US fighters AND its proclivity to get something more "with the times". How attractive will the Mk2 be for the IAF around 2030 when a stealth fighter in the same category might become available? IF it comes to more acrimony and possibility of sanctions on the tejas' engines, the IAF will become all the more cagey wrt Tejas. If Russia offers some co-development/deep license deal for Su-75 for the MRCA, this might be checkmate.
The above conclusions are probably just figment of my paranoid imagination thanks (at least partly) to the games played so far when it comes to desi made products. JMTPF.
1. The latest news coming out of HAL about delay in delivery of the mk2 PV to December and production variant to around 2029 DOES NOT BODE WELL.
2. Statements made by US rep. on committee on foreign affairs is strongly hinting at CAATSA based sanctions resulting from S400.
3. Russia unveils a stealth single engined LCA probably available at the same time as mk2.
The first point suggests that HAL might find it more convenient to continue the MKI line with another TOT screwdrivergiri setup via Su-75. The IAF might just favor this considering its healthy caution wrt US fighters AND its proclivity to get something more "with the times". How attractive will the Mk2 be for the IAF around 2030 when a stealth fighter in the same category might become available? IF it comes to more acrimony and possibility of sanctions on the tejas' engines, the IAF will become all the more cagey wrt Tejas. If Russia offers some co-development/deep license deal for Su-75 for the MRCA, this might be checkmate.
The above conclusions are probably just figment of my paranoid imagination thanks (at least partly) to the games played so far when it comes to desi made products. JMTPF.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Regarding point 1, HAL CMD only talked about testing getting completed by 2026-27. He didn't say anything about production starting in 2029.Cain Marko wrote:I know what I'm about to write will not be popular here, but there are certain noises coming out from rather diverse areas that seem ominous:
1. The latest news coming out of HAL about delay in delivery of the mk2 PV to December and production variant to around 2029 DOES NOT BODE WELL.
2. Statements made by US rep. on committee on foreign affairs is strongly hinting at CAATSA based sanctions resulting from S400.
3. Russia unveils a stealth single engined LCA probably available at the same time as mk2.
The first point suggests that HAL might find it more convenient to continue the MKI line with another TOT screwdrivergiri setup via Su-75. The IAF might just favor this considering its healthy caution wrt US fighters AND its proclivity to get something more "with the times". How attractive will the Mk2 be for the IAF around 2030 when a stealth fighter in the same category might become available? IF it comes to more acrimony and possibility of sanctions on the tejas' engines, the IAF will become all the more cagey wrt Tejas. If Russia offers some co-development/deep license deal for Su-75 for the MRCA, this might be checkmate.
The above conclusions are probably just figment of my paranoid imagination thanks (at least partly) to the games played so far when it comes to desi made products. JMTPF.
Anyways, August 2022 was the earlier date of roll-out which got postponed to 2022 year end, a delay of 3-4 months... And 2026 was the date he mentioned earlier for completion of all testing, now he mentioned 2026-27 which is again only a few months delay...
Either ways deliveries will start only 3 years after order... Even if we assume order will be signed in 2026, first production jet will be out only in 2029 which has always been the plan...
People are reading too much into his statement...
Regarding point 3, I strongly believe Su75 won't be ready for production by 2027... I doubt even the prototype will fly by then...
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Anyways, IAF can not be an all stealth Air Force... We need a mix of lower end and higher end jets... IAF need lot of single engine 4th Gen fighters with low operating cost for normal operations to fill atleast 1/3rd of its fleet... Stealth jets have high operating costs and will be needed only for special missions...
I don't think they will go for Su75 with AMCA already in development...
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
@ Cain-ji: Couple of points to consider.
1) If the IAF is comfortable with inducting fourth generation fighters (Rafale, Tejas) in 2020/2021 and expecting to have those aircraft in service for at least four decades, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK.
2) If the IAF is willing to conduct a fourth generation fighter contest for 114 MRFA and induct them at a rate of 12 aircraft per year, which will be beyond 2030....then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is perfectly OK.
3) If Lockheed Martin (F-21), Boeing (F-15EX and F-18SH), Saab (Gripen E), Dassault (Rafale F4) and Eurofighter GmbH (Typhoon) all believe that their fourth generation bird will be able to hold their own against the J-20 and F-31, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK. I don't want to include Rsk-MiG (MiG-35) and Sukhoi (Su-35) in the list, because it will ruffle feathers amongst the you-know-who on BRF
4) I agree with your viewpoint about HAL continuing the MKI line with some other Russian product. It remains to be seen what Russian product will take its place. I really hope the IAF does not end up with the Su-75 though. It would be nice if they could repurpose that line to do the Super Sukhoi upgrade. But your point on the Su-75 is noted.
5) It would be a huge mistake on the part of the US to sanction India over the S-400 deal. I don't believe that will happen. There is too much invested and there is too much at stake in the relationship, to have a missile system like the S-400 cause permanent damage. Wiser minds will prevail in the US. Amreeka will learn to accept and live with India's multipolar alignment policy as explained by EAM Subrahmanyam Jaishankar. That is what countries do in strategic partnerships - understand each other. It is for America to decide how it wants to engage India. We can discuss this in greater depth in the Strategic Affairs forum. I don't want to derail this thread.
By the way, the multipolar alignment policy = non-alignment policy, just updated to the modern geopolitical times.
1) If the IAF is comfortable with inducting fourth generation fighters (Rafale, Tejas) in 2020/2021 and expecting to have those aircraft in service for at least four decades, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK.
2) If the IAF is willing to conduct a fourth generation fighter contest for 114 MRFA and induct them at a rate of 12 aircraft per year, which will be beyond 2030....then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is perfectly OK.
3) If Lockheed Martin (F-21), Boeing (F-15EX and F-18SH), Saab (Gripen E), Dassault (Rafale F4) and Eurofighter GmbH (Typhoon) all believe that their fourth generation bird will be able to hold their own against the J-20 and F-31, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK. I don't want to include Rsk-MiG (MiG-35) and Sukhoi (Su-35) in the list, because it will ruffle feathers amongst the you-know-who on BRF
4) I agree with your viewpoint about HAL continuing the MKI line with some other Russian product. It remains to be seen what Russian product will take its place. I really hope the IAF does not end up with the Su-75 though. It would be nice if they could repurpose that line to do the Super Sukhoi upgrade. But your point on the Su-75 is noted.
5) It would be a huge mistake on the part of the US to sanction India over the S-400 deal. I don't believe that will happen. There is too much invested and there is too much at stake in the relationship, to have a missile system like the S-400 cause permanent damage. Wiser minds will prevail in the US. Amreeka will learn to accept and live with India's multipolar alignment policy as explained by EAM Subrahmanyam Jaishankar. That is what countries do in strategic partnerships - understand each other. It is for America to decide how it wants to engage India. We can discuss this in greater depth in the Strategic Affairs forum. I don't want to derail this thread.
By the way, the multipolar alignment policy = non-alignment policy, just updated to the modern geopolitical times.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
You're right about the Hal MD not giving the production date, I heard that on a news site. At this point we simply don't know how far along the su75 is .. The one we saw at maks could very well have been a prototype, at least they seemed to advertise it as such. In any case, the estimated timelines don't seem too different.LakshmanPST wrote:.
Regarding point 1, HAL CMD only talked about testing getting completed by 2026-27. He didn't say anything about production starting in 2029.
Anyways, August 2022 was the earlier date of roll-out which got postponed to 2022 year end, a delay of 3-4 months... And 2026 was the date he mentioned earlier for completion of all testing, now he mentioned 2026-27 which is again only a few months delay...
Either ways deliveries will start only 3 years after order... Even if we assume order will be signed in 2026, first production jet will be out only in 2029 which has always been the plan...
People are reading too much into his statement...
Regarding point 3, I strongly believe Su75 won't be ready for production by 2027... I doubt even the prototype will fly by then...
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Anyways, IAF can not be an all stealth Air Force... We need a mix of lower end and higher end jets... IAF need lot of single engine 4th Gen fighters with low operating cost for normal operations to fill atleast 1/3rd of its fleet... Stealth jets have high operating costs and will be needed only for special missions...
I don't think they will go for Su75 with AMCA already in development...
Wrt your second point about stealth fighters, note that the su75 is being advertised as a cheap Russki variant of stealth. Supposedly designed to work at the bottom of any major air force. Plus there will be 100s of non stealth frames in the iaf until well into the 2060s.
The larger point that might possibly work against the Tejas is the sword of sanctions. I optimistically hope that this isnt any real danger considering India just bought almost a billion USD worth ge404, but then I can't help but get nervous. And I wouldnt be surprised if there are iaf planners who get sleepless nights over the same issue although they obviously can't speak about such things.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 29 Jul 2021 12:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Don't disagree with your logic sir but then one has to consider that Hal or iaf or most of all, brochuritis stricken babus may get tempted by lalach of gen 5 at cheaper price than euro canards.Rakesh wrote:@ Cain-ji: Couple of points to consider.
1) If the IAF is comfortable with inducting fourth generation fighters (Rafale, Tejas) in 2020/2021 and expecting to have those aircraft in service for at least four decades, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK.
2) If the IAF is willing to conduct a fourth generation fighter contest for 114 MRFA and induct them at a rate of 12 aircraft per year, which will be beyond 2030....then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is perfectly OK.
3) If Lockheed Martin (F-21), Boeing (F-15EX and F-18SH), Saab (Gripen E), Dassault (Rafale F4) and Eurofighter GmbH (Typhoon) all believe that their fourth generation bird will be able to hold their own against the J-20 and F-31, then a production variant date of Tejas Mk2 in 2029 is OK. I don't want to include Rsk-MiG (MiG-35) and Sukhoi (Su-35) in the list, because it will ruffle feathers amongst the you-know-who on BRF
Without going in too deep here, I think the US will demand a good pound of flesh to keep the caatsa at bay. Not sure what. More pertinently, the IAF seems to have an allergy to sanction prone US fighters and possibly to those that have critical US parts. And who can blame them considering how often we get CAATSA related threats in the press.Rakesh wrote:It would be a huge mistake on the part of the US to sanction India over the S-400 deal. I don't believe that will happen. There is too much invested and there is too much at stake in the relationship, to have a missile system like the S-400 cause permanent damage. Wiser minds will prevail in the US. Amreeka will learn to accept and live with India's multipolar alignment policy as explained by EAM Subrahmanyam Jaishankar. That is what countries do in strategic partnerships - understand each other. It is for America to decide how it wants to engage India. We can discuss this in greater depth in the Strategic Affairs forum. I don't want to derail this thread.
By the way, the multipolar alignment policy = non-alignment policy, just updated to the modern geopolitical times.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
We can pay for Reaper drones, P-8I, and they may ask for GE engines for Tejas Mk2 & AMCA.Cain Marko wrote:I think the US will demand a good pound of flesh to keep the caatsa at bay. Not sure what.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
True, but let us see how it plays out. Gen 5 aircraft will not be cheap, but I doubt the IAF would want to invest in a Russian interpretation of it. They were not too happy about PAK-FA development. If the Su-75 follows that path, I am not sure the IAF would be eager to hop on board.Cain Marko wrote:Don't disagree with your logic sir but then one has to consider that Hal or iaf or most of all, brochuritis stricken babus may get tempted by lalach of gen 5 at cheaper price than euro canards.
There are other platforms that will serve us a lot better than 114 American fighters. Deshmukh-ji has made some good points. Additional MH-60Rs, perhaps more C-130s can also be looked at.Rakesh wrote:Without going in too deep here, I think the US will demand a good pound of flesh to keep the caatsa at bay. Not sure what. More pertinently, the IAF seems to have an allergy to sanction prone US fighters and possibly to those that have critical US parts. And who can blame them considering how often we get CAATSA related threats in the press.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
there is IAF in the game..they evaluated PAKFA and provided that it could be joined later on...they have extensive experience..perhaps second only to Russia herself in operating russian planes so they know a lot about operating costs over lifetime and MBTO of the engines ....and that is for 4g. Based on experiences with HAL (earlier) and OFB We know very well design and production can mean very different things...i think unless it sees active service in RuAF, IAF would be best to avoid CHeckmate like plague..tejas/amca would be a good option better than that..MOD for all its bad things has an elephantine memory..they didnt do any major business with mig after they acted cocky with IAF and my gut feeling is (i might be completely wrong here) they set parameters for MMRCA in a way to provide Su (Irkut) which was playing hardball on even servicing or supply of spares of items of of Su 30 like tyres, oil, parachute etc which were also affective availability rates.....
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I was looking at some of the videos from this years Aero India. I noticed that the Mk2/ MWF models do not have the air intake for APU on the spine. Does this mean that Mk2/MWF does not have the APU or did they move the air intake else where?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
CAATSA related sanctions will not result in curtailment of GE engines supply. I had mentioned this long back on BR that Turkey's ATAK helicopters use american components too & supplied will not be curtailed even after sanctions. On top of it, our relationship with US is far more strategic than Turkey's.Cain Marko wrote:
2. Statements made by US rep. on committee on foreign affairs is strongly hinting at CAATSA based sanctions resulting from S400.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Turkey is a NATO member and (used to be) the bulwark against Russia and Syria axis. How much more strategic does it get?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
India is the bulwark against China and China is rn no.1 and far larger concern for US than russia.Tanaji wrote:Turkey is a NATO member and (used to be) the bulwark against Russia and Syria axis. How much more strategic does it get?
Also all of nato - tens of european nations form an opposing axis to russia (without turkey), meanwhile quad thr axis against China has India and Japan as major regional players forming the bulk.
Also indian defense purchases are in a different orbit than turkey.
In no way, turkey comes close to strategic importance of India rn for US.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
That depends on whether you're speaking to Democrats or Republicans. Current dispensation likes to keep the media focussed on Russia.YashG wrote:India is the bulwark against China and China is rn no.1 and far larger concern for US than russia.Tanaji wrote:Turkey is a NATO member and (used to be) the bulwark against Russia and Syria axis. How much more strategic does it get?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14027 ... 20386?s=20 --->
Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...
The whole world knows, we've cracked it. The future belongs to us.
Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...
The whole world knows, we've cracked it. The future belongs to us.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Such a sexy beast!
https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 6704764931 ---> Carries a decent amount of fuel, armaments, packs a punch @ EW, Radar, flies like a peregrine falcon. More importantly, suits our needs. Here goes LCA AF MK2 in IAF colors.
https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 6704764931 ---> Carries a decent amount of fuel, armaments, packs a punch @ EW, Radar, flies like a peregrine falcon. More importantly, suits our needs. Here goes LCA AF MK2 in IAF colors.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
You beat me to it m_saini
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Thanks for including the tweet Rakeshji. Was very hasty in posting the images
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://twitter.com/Pratisht3/status/14 ... 44865?s=20 ---->
LAMFD* + Data Fusion + Optionally manned cockpit (not autonomous, but capable of landing plane if pilots faint) are the future.
Ooh and yes, These are features of the Tejas Mk 2 cockpit. Rather I can say no one, literally can make cockpit better than us
Picture - Tejas MK-2 Cockpit
LAMFD - Large Area Multi Function Display
LAMFD* + Data Fusion + Optionally manned cockpit (not autonomous, but capable of landing plane if pilots faint) are the future.
Ooh and yes, These are features of the Tejas Mk 2 cockpit. Rather I can say no one, literally can make cockpit better than us
Picture - Tejas MK-2 Cockpit
LAMFD - Large Area Multi Function Display
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 48064?s=20 ---> The twin-engine to single-engine fighter ratio in an enlarged IAF needs to be better. You can say 'medium', however much you like to get around the fact that you have a somewhat lopsided hi-lo mix. Tejas Mk2 is the answer.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
LCA-Mk2 to roll out next year, first flight in 2023, says scientist
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 419325.ece
12 Sept 2021
Rollout 2022
First Flight 2023
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 419325.ece
12 Sept 2021
Rollout 2022
First Flight 2023
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 17702?s=20 ---> The configuration for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2 has been frozen and steel cutting is expected to begin soon while configuration for the fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been frozen and preliminary design completed.
https://twitter.com/jsmaina/status/1437 ... 00224?s=20 ---> @hvtiaf @Amitraaz - Will we have new design of air intakes to maximize potential of F-414?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14374 ... 40162?s=20 ---> I have stopped discussing Mk-2
https://twitter.com/jsmaina/status/1437 ... 00224?s=20 ---> @hvtiaf @Amitraaz - Will we have new design of air intakes to maximize potential of F-414?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14374 ... 40162?s=20 ---> I have stopped discussing Mk-2