Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Rakesh
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:I personally think that point no 2 above is more valid.
Please *DO NOT* quote entire posts with a one or two line reply.

Many readers visit BRF on their mobile phones. Please be mindful of other readers. I have edited your post.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

sivab wrote: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15488730 ... L12f4qAAAA
Indian Air Force has already given commitment for the induction of six squadrons of Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2 fighter jets. We will decide on additional numbers once the production of these aircraft starts: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari
4 years ago it was 12 squadrons

https://twitter.com/ani/status/15488730 ... ZY0hsoO6bg

I remember seeing all the celebrations on this site back the, there was even a 201 shirt design shown?

Now it’s 6? I feel physically sick witnessing how brazenly they can sabotage these efforts and get away with it, ESPECIALLY under a so called nationalist govt that has an official policy called Atmanirbhar Bharat.

India deserves its backwards third world country tag.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

2018
Looking At 12 Squadrons Of LCA Tejas Mk.2, IAF Chief Confirms
https://www.livefistdefence.com/looking ... -confirms/
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I personally think that point no 2 above is more valid.
Please *DO NOT* quote entire posts with a one or two line reply.

Many readers visit BRF on their mobile phones. Please be mindful of other readers. I have edited your post.
Rakesh, my answer to the question raised by Sachin was embedded in the quote under para heading response.

Now the post itself has completely become useless.

If you can restore that post. Please do so. And delete the other 2 posts. If you cannot then delete all 3.

Thanks
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

The change in nos. of Tejas Mk2 happened during the tenure of ACM Bhadauria itself...
He initially said 200 jets, later said 8 squadrons... We assumed it will be 160 jets, which is good enough number... Towards the end of his tenure he said that numbers will be decided based on progress of AMCA project... (I don't have the links but I can google it and provide it here if required)
The current chief is merely repeating the same sentences... Only difference is that he was not even mentioning Tejas Mk2 until recently...
Whatever it is, Decisions to mess with it were taken at Air HQ, not by a single person...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

I sincerely hope someone at IAF is thinking of OPEX as well and not just Capex... It seems to be common sense but with our procurement process you never really know

I'd love to know how they plan to operationally afford, maintain and upgrade a force that has 140 odd Rafales, 250 Su 30s and 120 fifth Gen stealth AMCA fighters without decimating the budget.

Mk1A and Mk2 won't just be the cheapest to buy but also the cheapest to operate and upgrade and yet we're only planning a total of 12 squadrons of them... That's less than 1/3rd of the supposed 42 sanctioned strength.

If the Mirage 2000 upgrade bill was a shocker then I hope the IAF is prepared to pay what's in store when it comes to Raffy.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ldev »

AkshaySG wrote: Mk1A and Mk2 won't just be the cheapest to buy but also the cheapest to operate and upgrade and yet we're only planning a total of 12 squadrons of them... That's less than 1/3rd of the supposed 42 sanctioned strength.
I would imagine that the IAF does not view these purchases purely from a cost standpoint, but in the context of where the PLAAF and PAF will be in terms of capabilities in the future. The force mix that the IAF plans for today is to face off against the projected capabilities of Indian's adversaries in the mid 2030s and beyond. In that context if by 2035 it is the IAF projection that it will be facing off against an overwhelmingly 5th generation fleet of J-20s and FC-31s from the PLAAF with a strong possibility that China will supply the smaller/lower tier FC-31 to Pakistan, then from the IAF's viewpoint it makes sense to keep a balance in force strength between the LCA Mk 2 and the AMCA, with the AMCA having a much better capability to face off against PLAAF 5th generation fighters. Something similar in the USAF which is cutting back on F-35 Block 3 acquisitions because of the much more capable Block 4 upgrades that are imminent much to the displeasure of politicians there.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:2018
Looking At 12 Squadrons Of LCA Tejas Mk.2, IAF Chief Confirms
https://www.livefistdefence.com/looking ... -confirms/
How much of this speech has this Govt adopted?

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490068 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> If you don't give love & respect to your own child & expect the same from your neighbours, can it be done? If we don't value our products, how can we expect the world to invest in us? When we showed confidence in our indigenously developed BRAHMOS, the world came forward too: PM Narendra Modi.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490040 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> We developed the habit of being dependent on foreign countries for even the simplest products. Like drug addicts, we were addicted to the products imported from abroad: PM Narendra Modi.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490048 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> To change this mindset, we worked on mission mode after 2014, after learning from the approach of the past, to create a new ecosystem of Defence with the help of 'Sabka Prayas': PM Narendra Modi.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:I am yet to dig into the details, but someone tweeted that, if 6 squadrons of MK2 is added to 6 of MRFA, everything put together makes up 42 squadrons.

Perhaps someone can do the math and confirm if this is true.
The above numbers will not add up to 42 squadrons. Below will likely be the squadron strength in the mid 2030s (post retirement of the Mirage 2000I, MiG-29UPG and Jaguar IS/IB/IM fleets);

* Rafale: 2 Squadrons
* Su-30MKI: 13 Squadrons
* Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons
* Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons
* MRFA: 6 Squadrons (Planned)
* Tejas Mk2: 6 Squadrons (Planned)

The above is 33 squadrons and no where close to 42. Post 2035, the first pair of AMCA Mk1 units will arrive and by the end of the 2040s/early 2050s...the five AMCA Mk2 units will arrive.

Air HQ is not interested in hitting 42 squadrons any longer. They will have no AMCA, if they do not make significant investments in the Tejas Mk2. In the mid-2030s, when the AMCA turns out to be a damper...then they will start a new import competition for a 5+ generation platform.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

If Air HQ does not want the Tejas Mk2, then they will have to switch to a twin engine, non-VLO, platform for the 2020s and 2030s.

Thus the reason for the push towards the 114 MRFA. And 114 will only be the first batch. Of all the MRFA contestants, only the Rafale C/B and the F-15EX will quench Air HQ's thirst for a hot rod fighter.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485926 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> For AMCA, we have committed 7 squadrons. The numbers for LCA Mark-II, we will take a call on it when the first production model comes: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari.
https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 2ek8BStsZQ ----> Air Force takes a call on number of aircraft required, once the first production model comes out. Is that how @IAF_MCC plans its fleet profile? Obviously they do not consider themselves part of the project. It's time that govt clarified a few things

https://twitter.com/EkNashwar/status/15 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> Program ownership is absent in both IAF and IA. Where audit by GAO in US forced USAF to go for fleet rationalisation, in India similar repeated audits by CAG has not brought any change in IAF procurement policies. The uncertainty over domestic platforms still lingers.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> This lack of ownership of weapon projects by IAF and IA is a function of structural deficiencies which need to be addressed. A similar situation does not exist in IN and for the right reasons.

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> If IAF has no idea about how the Tejas Mk2 will turn out, what is the purpose of Preliminary Design Review (PDR), the Critical Design Review (CDR) by IAF? Don't they have confidence in their own above two processes? Don't they have a technical team that can monitor Tejas Mk2 progress to jigs?

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> Committed home air force orders allows MNCs to invest in state of the art technology, do R&D to produce the fighters with block upgrades, etc. IAF wants to buy MRCA, but IAF will not give same committed backing for the Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Neela »

Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> If IAF has no idea about how the Tejas Mk2 will turn out, what is the purpose of Preliminary Design Review (PDR), the Critical Design Review (CDR) by IAF? Don't they have confidence in their own above two processes? Don't they have a technical team that can monitor Tejas Mk2 progress to jigs?
Ouch...that must hurt the IAF . Original SM storm seems to have only thrown even more muck in the air with this knee-jerk reaction from the IAF leadership.
Even conservatively, the Tejas Mk2 is a $1B program if you go by 12 squadron numbers. Can you imagine the stakeholders in any private enterprise blowing hot and cold on a next generation , incremental update $1B program which lays the groundwork for AMCA to be built on.
Horrible Program Management, horrible commitments and even worse media management.

On the one hand, we have the PM and DM blaring out that indigenisation is that way forward. They even bring out lists every 2 quarters to highlight the direction. And then you have the IAF which seems to say we are partially committed to 120 aircraft and then we will place more orders.

Do they know if Mk2 can match their CDR requirements or not? Havent most of the technologies been proven already in the MK1 platform?
Then what the hell are they thinking ?

The simple fact is that the corporate world in India is more wily, more agile and more tuned -in. This leads to a general higher awareness among defence enthusiasts. The IAF and similarly, the IA, are lagging behind significantly and are rightfully being called out. They cannot hide under their incompetence.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by vijayk »

< Post Removed >

Mod Note: Already posted here ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&start=1840#p2558374
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490068 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> If you don't give love & respect to your own child & expect the same from your neighbours, can it be done? If we don't value our products, how can we expect the world to invest in us? When we showed confidence in our indigenously developed BRAHMOS, the world came forward too: PM Narendra Modi.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490040 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> We developed the habit of being dependent on foreign countries for even the simplest products. Like drug addicts, we were addicted to the products imported from abroad: PM Narendra Modi.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15490048 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> To change this mindset, we worked on mission mode after 2014, after learning from the approach of the past, to create a new ecosystem of Defence with the help of 'Sabka Prayas': PM Narendra Modi.
The PM's speech immediately triggered the import lobby.... :lol:

The PM's self-delusional mis-statements about defence manufacturing and R&D
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/07/the- ... ments.html
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by skumar »

Rakesh wrote:The PM's speech immediately triggered the import lobby.... :lol:

The PM's self-delusional mis-statements about defence manufacturing and R&D
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/07/the- ... ments.html
:rotfl:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/15 ... TLlsgSMKgQ ---> A tenure at the ASTE/NFTC should be mandatory for future Air Chiefs. Till you have understood the travails of product development, life cycle costs and the advantages of an indigenous supply chain, you are at best a glorified user and nothing more.

https://twitter.com/EpicRotis/status/15 ... TLlsgSMKgQ ---> :rotfl:

HAL: "We will scale production rate based on orders"

IAF: "We will scale orders based on production rate"
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

skumar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The PM's speech immediately triggered the import lobby.... :lol:

The PM's self-delusional mis-statements about defence manufacturing and R&D
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/07/the- ... ments.html
:rotfl:
shook la is shaking .. all in red and BOLD :roll:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:If Air HQ does not want the Tejas Mk2, then they will have to switch to a twin engine, non-VLO, platform for the 2020s and 2030s.

Thus the reason for the push towards the 114 MRFA. And 114 will only be the first batch. Of all the MRFA contestants, only the Rafale C/B and the F-15EX will quench Air HQ's thirst for a hot rod fighter.
So starting from scratch yet again? That’s another 20-30 years flushed away

12 squadrons (as IAF committed to in 2018) of LCA MK.2, 2-4 more squadrons of Rafale off the shelf and then full commitment to AMCA


Instead this fixation on MRFA which we all know will never lead to even 1 fighter but will consume the next 10-15 years meanwhile PLAAF and PAF modernise and expand. IAF will be lucky to have a 10 squadron advantage on PAF come 2035 at this rate.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

Ankit Desai wrote:In Hindi: IDRW-ACM Clarifies on 6 LCA Mk2 Squadrons



-Ankit
I’m sorry but are we/ADA/HAL meant to be grateful for this? 4 years ago the then IAF CAS was committing to 12 squadrons of the MK.2. At this rate come the time the last MK1A is handed over they’ll be back to the 20+20 scenario as with MK.1
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:So starting from scratch yet again? That’s another 20-30 years flushed away

12 squadrons (as IAF committed to in 2018) of LCA MK.2, 2-4 more squadrons of Rafale off the shelf and then full commitment to AMCA

Instead this fixation on MRFA which we all know will never lead to even 1 fighter but will consume the next 10-15 years meanwhile PLAAF and PAF modernise and expand. IAF will be lucky to have a 10 squadron advantage on PAF come 2035 at this rate.
They envision the Mk2 to replace the Jaguar and Mirage 2000 fleets. That is 6.5 squadrons (2.5 Mirage 2000 squadrons + 4 Jaguar squadrons). So literally a one-to-one replacement and thus the order book of six Tejas Mk2 squadrons (or 120+ aircraft).

Air HQ does not see the three MiG-29 squadrons being replaced by the Mk2. The Fulcrum is their current hot rod and they want to replace it with another hot rod. They are still thinking in very insular terms. Even with the ugly hump on the MiG-29UPG, the Fulcrum is still a very maneuverable fighter. And Air HQ wants a fighter that outranks the MiG-29. Only the Rafale F3R(I) does that now. The F-15EX is another hot rod, but the acquisition cost and the OPEX cost is horrendously expensive.

So do the math ---> 36 Rafales now + 114 MRFA + 63 more (that is the three units of the MiG-29). I am sure you remember 63 from the first MMRCA contest (it was 126 + 63 and now will be 114 + 63). The sum total of this acquisition is 213 birds or nearly 12 squadrons of Rafale/MRFAs. Some examples will head off to TACDE + serve as attrition reserves.

* 13 Su-30MKI squadrons
* 11+ Rafale/MRFA squadrons
* 6 Tejas Mk2 squadrons
* 4 Tejas Mk1A squadrons
* 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons
* 2(+5) AMCA squadrons

The above is around 43 units in all. This looks to be the plan.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by S_Madhukar »

The way our IAF planners do squadron numbers must put the Big 4 accountants to shame. Who said MoD and top brass don’t collaborate!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

If the higher echelon's of the IAF can't get the message from PM Modi's latest speech, then we have a much bigger problem to deal with. So my take is that MRFA in its current avatar is never going to take off. Best case scenario is 1-2 more tranche's of Rafale (2 squadron's each) and the rest is all going to be in the form of Mk1A, Mk2 & AMCA. I am not sure if we have a parallel to this problem across two different platforms in the name of Tejas and LCH. When the LCH is very much available, we have seen our forces going in for 50 odd Rudra's. Not a bad idea but leaves us guessing what the heck is going on in the minds of our military planners. Same thing with NUH when the IN is not favoring ALH Mk3. Do they really can't trust our birds until they are fully developed? I think if they make a minor (but a major) change in their minds that our nascent aeronautical sector is not mature enough and will not reach that stage in another decade where the product can reach the desired stage that they are expecting in its first iteration. They need to come terms with the MVP concept and accept that it will take over 1-2 tranche's to reach the desired levels. Maybe we will live long enough to see a Tejas Mk2A as well!!! Mera Bharat Mahan!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

I think we need to understand the purpose of all those different planes and squadron numbers.
What threats are they to defeat?
Then can understand this one to one replacement policy of Air Hq.
I don't think they have told PMO.
And what threats are there now and in future?

IAF needs to do a deep dive with PMO and not this public farcas.
Long back one Air Commodore Phadke(?) wrote in IDSA.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Konaseema,
ALH Mk3 Army is operational. The Navy version is a problem unless folded blades are available.

The operational requirements are such that folded blades are important. Hopefully, that will be addressed for shipboard duties.

Also think about where an MVP concept can be used.

We are one of the most active operational army in the world. MVP can only be selectively applied.
Last edited by ramana on 22 Jul 2022 06:09, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by skumar »

konaseema wrote:If the higher echelon's of the IAF can't get the message from PM Modi's latest speech, then we have a much bigger problem to deal with. ..
Just so it is crystal clear, I hope PM does the the same with the IAF brass sitting on stage.

The ACM's statement on Mk2 does not evoke confidence. How can we offer it to other countries when our own ACM talks like this?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

I'm guessing that IAF was asked the question by someone in MOD/GOI, "Why do you need MRFA when you have Tejas Mk2 coming in the same timeframe...?"...
If you read the statements given out by the Chief and some news bits/articles that came out to defend MRFA, it becomes amply clear... MRFA lobby is desperately trying to push the case...
----
Sample of the statements--->
1) "We are short of squadrons, we need new jets by the time MIG29s and Mirage 2000s retire in 2030..."
If you notice, both the jets were originally expected to be retired by 2035 but as soon as the new chief came, he said that both these planes will retire by the end if the decade i.e. 2030...
We Mango ppl will obviously not know the exact dates... But the sudden change in retirement year looked wierd...
The conspiracy theorist in me says that MRFA lobby wants to show artificial projected squadron shortage by 2030, and since Tejas Mk2 will be just ready by then, MRFA will become a necessity... If the retirement date is 2035, Tejas Mk2 will already be in numbers and all production hurdles will be overcome by then... It would be in active production churning out atleast 1 squadron a year...
-
2) "We are looking at some 5th Gen capabilities in MRFA"
What 5th Gen capabilities are IAF looking for in MRFA...? We are already developing all the capabilities for AMCA... What new capabilities are they looking for...?
It looked like they are randomly throwing in words to make a case for MRFA...
-
3) "We want to promote Aviation industry in Private sector..."
The logic given here is---> "HAL is a public sector entity... HAL will have a Tejas Line... And a production line should exist in the private sector also parallelly producing jets... So, MRFA is the answer..."
But fact is, MRFA is screwdrivergiri by a private sector entity... I doubt it will promote any real R&D in private sector...
Infact, Tejas program has achieved more progress in private sector as HAL is mainly only assembling the jets and many critical parts are manufactured by private sector... It created an entire ecisystem...
-
4) "Tejas Mk2 is different class from MRFA... MRFA is Rafale class..."
This is the most laughable defense by the MRFA lobby... Pardon me, but I often wonder if they pull out new classses right out of their After-burners...
For all practical purposes, Tejas Mk2 is equivalent to Gripen, F21 and MIG35... All the three are contendors in MRFA Tender... If MRFA is a different class, what are these jets doing there...?
Even a kid can see that the lobby is simply bluffing...
-
5) Also, in case ppl forgot, the MRFA lobby tried to connect MRFA Tender with AMCA Engine development...
But I feel this somehow didn't materialize and someone sensible separated them both before things could go further...
----
I feel MRFA lobby are trying to push the case in the minds of General public and veiled statements to Govt., but somehow somewhere I have hope that it is not working out as expected...
And the more its delayed, more ppl are understanding the issue...
Let's hope sense prevails...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

shaun wrote:Well the argument is we need " real " fighters not lab products .
Ahhh ... i learned something today.

So ACM Chowdhay argument is AMCA is not lab product but "real".
And MWF Tejas mk2 is lab product and not "real" enough.

Does BRF also have a woke dictionary? :rotfl:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

Pratyush wrote:So it's final, no more than 6 squadrons will be ordered by the IAF. So much for the IAF standing behind an aircraft that they got designed.
No saar. ACM Chowdhay will not see the day when 6sqns, nay even 1 sqn is inductued. Not sure how long he will last.

Not sure if Chandigarh club will have any opening for new members by the time 1st sqn is inducted.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

ks_sachin wrote: Or are we accusing the Chief of being less than honourable?

What is it?
Questioning is integral to Indic thought process.

During 1970 to 1990 my generation was full of deferment and defect free idolization of our honourable leader Indira Khan Gandy. Only to later know the real human in various books, including her sexual intimacy with her German teacher in Santiniketan, Nehru's secretary MO Mathai, yog guru Dhirendra Brahmachari and Foreign Minister Dinesh Singh.

Is it possible some here know what's happening in South block beyond the honourable blinkers?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

Neela wrote: Prem, you are right. Wrong people in key decisions. And thanks for elucidating the general view. The commitment to MK2 is really baffling - simply because "lack of performance data" cannot be cited. MK1 data is available. It is proven in exercises. High availability already even when further LRU improvements will reduce hangar time. Extrapolation to MK2 with lessons learned on MK1 platform can be done. So it is bordering on bizarre.

What I dont understand is why 6 squadrons. THat number has some background to the thinking of the IAF at this point.
I am sure if a journalist asked ACM a month ago , the IAF justification for 42 sqn, he would have no answer. :roll:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

JTull wrote:I have had enough of this selective amnesia exhibited by ACM from day 1. His apathy for desi products must be more severely dealt with, than a corrigendum that's needed 4 hours after every statement. Nitin Gokhale is appealing for calm but I am livid.
So am i, :oops: :| :cry:
Haridas
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

Pratyush wrote: ... Now the post itself has completely become useless.

If you can restore that post. Please do so. And delete the other 2 posts. If you cannot then delete all 3.

Thanks
:mrgreen: :) too much time to kill. :twisted:
Prem Kumar
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Haridas wrote: Questioning is integral to Indic thought process.
This is key. We can/should be respectful to the men in uniform. But they are not above questioning. Our judiciary thinks they are above questioning & we can all see what that has led to.

Leaders can be honorable, well-meaning & wrong. The wrong'ness could come from misaligned priorities, inability to see the big picture, baggage etc.
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 19 Jul 2022 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
Haridas
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

ldev wrote: I would imagine that the IAF does not view these purchases purely from a cost standpoint, but in the context of where the PLAAF and PAF will be in terms of capabilities in the future. The force mix that the IAF plans for today is to face off against the projected capabilities of Indian's adversaries in the mid 2030s and beyond. In that context if by 2035 it is the IAF projection that it will be facing off against an overwhelmingly 5th generation fleet of J-20s and FC-31s from the PLAAF with a strong possibility that China will supply the smaller/lower tier FC-31 to Pakistan, then from the IAF's viewpoint it makes sense to keep a balance in force strength between the LCA Mk 2 and the AMCA, with the AMCA having a much better capability to face off against PLAAF 5th generation fighters. Something similar in the USAF which is cutting back on F-35 Block 3 acquisitions because of the much more capable Block 4 upgrades that are imminent much to the displeasure of politicians there.
How many grey cells needed to choose weapons for Rafale, instead of ordering Hammer as afterthought, or SAAW?


You are asking too much for IAF brass to:
1. Technology projection (cell)
2. Project definition
3. Project Mgmt
4. Threat projection
5. Threat mitigation
6. Continuous improvements and reorganization

These are new words taught for first time at staff kallage, to pass, not practice.
Last edited by Haridas on 19 Jul 2022 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

The armed forces are peculiar in that in general middle of the road officers are more likely to pick up rank. And those who do well in courses.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bala »

On ACM Choudhari: I note with Indic thought how pleased he was with French Rafale and all the imported weapons it has, as decked out. IAF Men were trained on the craft too. Mighty satisfied and as pleased as Punch, as those gum chewing mericans would say. But when it came to LCAs I noticed his enthusiasm drop several notches. Very disappointing to see home grown maal being cold shouldered. I hope the LCA proves in the long run what a capable system India created.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

What is Indic thought?

The way the Americans stand by and push for their domestic products - does that qualify as Indic thought or does one have to be a Hindu for that?

Bala any system that one invests the time and thought into improving will repay the faith. Problem is all of our defence hierarchy does not understand this.

You saw what happened with the ALH. MK1 was ok had MGB problems etc but IA said fine. Today we have MK3 see where that is.

LCA MK1 has some shortcomings true. But see where it can take us and even with its three legs it is better than our so called four legged cheetahs.

Look at INSAS. The IC version was a big improvement but rather than stick to it and improve further the IA has been playing mental calesthenics with what is a suitable caliber.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

"Bala any system that one invests the time and thought into improving will repay the faith. Problem is all of our defence hierarchy does not understand this."

I beg to differ. This is simple enough stuff that even school children would understand. It appears so due to what the word 'commissioning' means to different people.

The nicest thing one can say about the state of IAF today is that, like Arjuna's aim in Mahabharata, their focus is only on MMRCA/MRFA. Unfortunately even that does not hold water. There is no full blown go-getter attitude based on reality. The specs and budget leading to the epic failure of MMRCA is a case in the point. MRFA is even worse, with not a hint of budget limit (like MMRCA had USD 10b) or allocation. The other consequences, like failure to frame Super Sukhoi SQRs, are glaringly absent. Imagine what would have happened if we had got 2052s into Sukhois during the production phase itself. That would have been pragmatic to say the least. It's not that 'pragmatism' is an alien concept to the force. Look at LCA Mk1 itself (not even Mk1A). They kept upgrading the SQRs (10 times in total?) to make it current while the production was on. There HAS to be a reason behind this mess and it does not seem to come from a good place.
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