Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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LakshmanPST
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/_JammuNews_/status/ ... 00256?s=20 ---> IAF CHIEF: DIFFICULT TO SAY BY WHEN WE WILL HAVE 42 SQUADRONS. Certainly not in the next 10 - 15 years. In the next decade we should be up to 35.
By 2030, with current confirmed plans, we will reach only 30-31 squadrons...
Tejas Mk2 SP aircrafts will start rolling only in 2030-31...
Either with 2 squadrons of Rafale or with MRFA order, we will reach maximum 33 squadrons by 2030...

Which ever way we see, Tejas Mk2 is the key for filling numbers in next decade...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

next decade means till 2032. this is mainly MK1A and more rafales if possible. there is nothing else on the table. that is why they are pushing for 114 MRFA. so they can maintain 35 with MK2 coming online after that. 42 - as he says - we dont know. maybe MCA has to come online with enough production capacity for that to happen.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

HVT sir is concerned on twitter why the IAF chief made no mention whatsoever of the Tejas Mk2 while mentioning just about everything else, Mk1A, MRFA and AMCA. I share his concern. Something unfortunate is cooking. HVT sir had made a cryptic comment earlier that he has stopped discussing Mk2 giving no reason why. I get the feeling the powers that be are looking at skipping Mk2 production and moving straight to AMCA (which would be a massive mistake) and filling up the numbers with MRFA which will take years to negotiate, cost a bomb and might never happen.

The relevant tweets:

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1445371410554097665
Since when have 200xTejas Mk-2 medium-weight indigenous fighter aircraft disappeared from the scheme of things?

What's been going on?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1445540170384625665
Sir! Only since long term projects like AMCA were mentioned during media Q&A...

Tejas Mk-2 seems conspicuous by its absence in the scheme 83 LCA, followed by imports, followed by AMCA.

I'm only intrigued by Defence Correspondents not inquiring about Mk-2 induction plans.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

nachiket wrote:HVT sir is concerned on twitter why the IAF chief made no mention whatsoever of the Tejas Mk2 while mentioning just about everything else, Mk1A, MRFA and AMCA. I share his concern. Something unfortunate is cooking. HVT sir had made a cryptic comment earlier that he has stopped discussing Mk2 giving no reason why. I
I had said this ages ago. The best hope for the Tejas is the mk1 and mk1a. Was disappointed when the iaf didn't order additional mk1 at foc. That was suspicious. Would have liked to see an order of at least 100 more here. The MK2 seems to be coming in a bit late - at a time when the tech needs will be better served by amca and even orca types. As such MK2 pitch seemed like a delaying tactic. Perhaps The russkis know this hence their new toy. Although a few pakfa might be a possibility as well in lieu for deep and independent mki upgrade.

Hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SSridhar »

Will buy Jets, won't achieve goal of 45 squadrons: Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari - Manu Pubby, ET
Sources said that the debate over increasing the order for locally built LCA fighter jets remains open, though the timelines promised by DRDO for its AMCA program will preclude the need for another version beyond the Mk1A on order.

It is believed that at a recent meeting chaired by the National Security Advisor, the conflicting timelines for the AMCA and the LCA Mk2 project came up for discussion, with one view being that the focus needs to be on just the next generation fighter programme.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Wah, wah! What alacrity & desk-thumping by the IAF chief, when it comes to MRFA. I wish we see such enthusiasm when it comes to indigenous projects (rather than point to MoD or MoF, cite procedural delays, lack of funds etc).

Its unpardonable that he leaves out Tejas MK2. I don't for a minute, believe that it was unintentional. He very well knows that the Tejas-MK2 is a serious replacement for MRFA. If you have the former, you don't need the latter.

Its a shame that this is the first pronouncement that comes after he takes over. The IAF top-brass institutional fetish for the MRFA is all too obvious. If our RM has any cojones, he should kill the MRFA project now. Put light & medium weight fighters in the no-import list.

Worst case, as a compromise, the IAF can be told that you'll get another 36 Rafales & the rest is Tejas. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by uddu »

Don't vent your frustration here. Just go to the Social media accounts and question the IAF account tagging them along with the def minister and PM himself. Give them a rude awakening of how much is the support for Tejas and for self reliance in defence. Those with Technical knowledge do counter them technically and do it regularly so that they know that there is a huge well informed support base for Tejas. Force them to give a speech in support of Tejas MK-II in the coming days. may be a tag #Tejas to trend as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

If Tejas Mk2 is not ordered in numbers, it will be the biggest injustice ever done to local Aerospace industry...
I really hope the first prototype takes to skies as early as possible...
Once it is unveiled, there will be sufficient pressure from many quarters to order it...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

SSridhar wrote:Will buy Jets, won't achieve goal of 45 squadrons: Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari - Manu Pubby, ET
It is believed that at a recent meeting chaired by the National Security Advisor, the conflicting timelines for the AMCA and the LCA Mk2 project came up for discussion, with one view being that the focus needs to be on just the next generation fighter programme.
How are the timelines conflicting...?
As per Satish Reddy Sir's presentation back in Feb, Ready-for-Production timelines are as follows:-
Tejas Mk2:- 2026
AMCA Mk1:- 2030
AMCA Mk2:- 2034

If you assume Contract signed in the next year and first jet arrives 3 years after that, induction timelines will be
Tejas Mk2:- 2030-38
AMCA Mk1:- 2034-36
AMCA Mk2:- 2038-44

AMCA Mk1 will be only 2 squadrons... AMCA Mk2 will be in more numbers and it is going to enter service only towards the end of Tejas Mk2 induction...
I don't really see any conflict here unless they severely delay Tejas Mk2 program and really speed up AMCA Mk2 program...
We also need to remember that AMCA Mk2 tineline is dependent of a new engine and the contract for its development is not even signed yet...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SSridhar »

It was said just a month back that the configuration for Mk2 has been frozen and metal cutting was expected to begin soon. Now, this !

Timeline for Rollout/First Flight/Induction of Mk2 2022/2023/2026
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sankum »

Let them meet 114 nos MRFA under make in India for $18b. 36 nos Rafale were bought for production cost under make in India was very high. It is cheaper to import 114nos MRFA than make in India.
8 sq Tejas mk2 will any how be bought. But for the timebeing priority is 114 MRFA under make in India.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Prem Kumar wrote:Wah, wah! What alacrity & desk-thumping by the IAF chief, when it comes to MRFA. I wish we see such enthusiasm when it comes to indigenous projects (rather than point to MoD or MoF, cite procedural delays, lack of funds etc).

Its unpardonable that he leaves out Tejas MK2. I don't for a minute, believe that it was unintentional. He very well knows that the Tejas-MK2 is a serious replacement for MRFA. If you have the former, you don't need the latter.

Its a shame that this is the first pronouncement that comes after he takes over. The IAF top-brass institutional fetish for the MRFA is all too obvious. If our RM has any cojones, he should kill the MRFA project now. Put light & medium weight fighters in the no-import list.

Worst case, as a compromise, the IAF can be told that you'll get another 36 Rafales & the rest is Tejas. Take it or leave it.
He didn't leave it out. Media did. Most likely for a reason.

In fact Team DDR was there and he apparently confirmed that 7 squadrons worth of Tejas Mk2s are projected to be inducted.

Twitter link

He clearly mentioned that at least 7 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2 are projected for induction. Team DDR was there.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sajaym »

A foreign plane bought under 'make in india', will not solve the IAF's immediate problems. I could have understood if they're buying extra units of an aircraft which is already being made in india -- eg SU-30MKI/Jaguar/Hawk, since the production lines/facilities already exist. But here if they're buying a totally different aircraft it's time consuming -- they have to buy land, set up the factory, recruit people, debate with Rahul Gandhi & gang. All this will take time. It makes better sense if these 114 nos are being produced by the parent plant, since it'll ensure faster delivery. This is a total flop show -- it will delay induction, wont result in any benefit for our MIC and will ultimately lead to more 'emergency procurement' in the event of a show down with China when more nos are required. This Airforce will never be able to fight a war with China on the strength of imported planes, I don't know when they'll realise that.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

SSridhar wrote:Will buy Jets, won't achieve goal of 45 squadrons: Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari - Manu Pubby, ET
Sources said that the debate over increasing the order for locally built LCA fighter jets remains open, though the timelines promised by DRDO for its AMCA program will preclude the need for another version beyond the Mk1A on order.

It is believed that at a recent meeting chaired by the National Security Advisor, the conflicting timelines for the AMCA and the LCA Mk2 project came up for discussion, with one view being that the focus needs to be on just the next generation fighter programme.
*If* the IAF goes ahead and kills the MWF to open up funds for the MRFA whilst offering AMCA as a sop for local industry, then local aerospace development may as well give up hope for large volume orders.

It is this precise gap in devpt that doomed the Tejas development timelines by creating a huge issue in starting from too low a baseline. And trying to jump too far ahead. Now we want to jump to a stealth program from a 4.5G airframe which stops at a mere 123 units.

This is clearly a funding issue here. IAF feels it won't get money for a MRFA and is being made to commit to an uncertain MWF, so wants to commit to a "proven" MRFA and free up funding for it. They dropped the Pak FA for the same reason.

So IAF wants to remove the in between step, ie the MWF. They blame the developers for being over ambitious and failing to deliver in a timely fashion which is fair, but then setup a system which perpetuates it. If there is no engine ready for AMCA Mk2 then? We will be stuck with just two squadrons. And a production gap between Mk1A and AMCA as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VinodTK »

144 Tejas MK2 Order, Brahmos on Barracuda SSN, LCH Mistral ATAM, Blue Flag 21

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 33985?s=20 ---> Bottom line, it is understandable why the IAF is pursuing the MRFA tender. Of course, they will also have to be fully committed to the Tejas Mk2, which is more important for the service's own future. And in my view the IAF is indeed fully committed to the Tejas Mk2.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 34178?s=20 ---> Look, the oldest Jaguars and the oldest Mig-29s will retire towards the second half of this decade. To reliably maintain even 34-35 *full strength* squadrons, India will need new inductions. And that will include both MRFA and Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sankum »

2sq of non upgraded Jaguar will retire by 2025.

4sq (80nos) Darin 3 upgraded Jaguar will serve till 2034-38 according to Hindu report.

3 Mig 29 upg life is extended to 45 years according to news report and will retire after 2032. 1 sq new to be bought will serve upto 2040 .

42 sq by 2040
6 sq MRFA
2 sq Rafale
6 sq AMCA
8 sq Tejas mk2
6 sq Tejas mk1
14 sq Su 30

38 sq estimate by 2030.
3 sq MRFA ?
2 sq Tejas mk2 ?
6 sq Tejas mk1
2 sq Rafale
14 sq Su 30
4 sq Jaguar
4 sq Mig 29
3 sq Mirage 2000
Last edited by sankum on 06 Oct 2021 19:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by uddu »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 19235?s=20 --->

* 114 x MRFA will happen.
* Tejas MK2 will also happen.
* AMCA will definitely happen.

Unnecessary confusion is being generated by some quarters.
In the case rather than live with shortage of Aircraft's IAF chief must come forward and proclaim that IAF will induct Tejas-MKII beyond the current numbers and even look at the Navy's TEDBF concept and slightly modify it to use for IAF plugging all number issues.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nam »

There is even less guarantee of AMCA compared to MK2. Atleast for MK2, we have seen the HAL RFI. For AMCA there is nothing.

IAF tried to block everything for the sake of 123 Rafale since 2010. Now it is trying to do the same for MRFA. It is also the reason why it doesn't want to come on-board TEDBF.

It is all about getting more Rafale by hook or crook!. Once the AMCA time comes, IAF will come up with another excuse...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by uddu »

The political leadership must be clear in this regard. That there will be no more MMRCA and its time for IAF to look at ordering more Tejas MK1A+MKII+TEDBF+AMCA variants to get the required squadron strength.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Kartik wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Wah, wah! What alacrity & desk-thumping by the IAF chief, when it comes to MRFA. I wish we see such enthusiasm when it comes to indigenous projects (rather than point to MoD or MoF, cite procedural delays, lack of funds etc).

Its unpardonable that he leaves out Tejas MK2. I don't for a minute, believe that it was unintentional. He very well knows that the Tejas-MK2 is a serious replacement for MRFA.
He didn't leave it out. Media did. Most likely for a reason.

In fact Team DDR was there and he apparently confirmed that 7 squadrons worth of Tejas Mk2s are projected to be inducted.

Twitter link

He clearly mentioned that at least 7 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2 are projected for induction. Team DDR was there.
No Kartik there's no mention of Tejas Mk.2 in whole video:

https://twitter.com/Sbmvv2000/status/14 ... Tck7Q&s=19
@Sbmvv200:
With respect, this is the press conference link: https://t.co/nyQOefcGpL
I have not heard any such statement about 7 Tejas Mk.2. Could you please point out where? Would really appreciate it.
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... Cdn1Q&s=19
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER

@MaverickBharat :
Hopefully Tejas isn't Next Marut.

-147 Maruts were built , Mk-2 version was cancelled for imported aircraft.
-123 Tejas are confirmed, Mk-2 has no firm orders , IAF is considering only ~120 LCA Mk-II for procurement.

Again same story
https://twitter.com/MaverickBharat/stat ... b6GZg&s=19

===========

@dhwaj99:
@PMOIndia @narendramodi @DefenceMinIndia do we want IMPORTED AIR FORCE or INDIA AIR FORCE? What is agenda of new IAF chief that he didn't mention Tejas Mk2 which is more modern than Rafale @Nambitiger1 Sir states This fetish of our brass with IMPORTs will enslave us more to west.
https://twitter.com/dhwaj99/status/1445 ... SS2TA&s=19
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SSridhar »

Kartik wrote: He clearly mentioned that at least 7 squadrons of the Tejas Mk2 are projected for induction. Team DDR was there.[/b]
Kartik, I went through the entire video. There were two instances when he spoke about the future makeup of the IAF. He mentioned Tejas Mk1 and AMCA only. Never mentioned Mk2
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

The IAF believes that sanctions are likely coming with the S-400 in December. This will affect the Tejas Mk1A (GE F404), but will affect the Tejas Mk2 (GE F414) that much more. Price to pay for sovereignty, but it is IMVHO worth it.

However Tejas Mk2 is *NOT* dead, but will arrive in new avatar. However, there will be a delay and thus the push for 114 MRFA (basically Rafale). The Chief has omitted the Mk2 for that very reason in his speech. That new avatar is still in the works.

Folks take emotions out of this and think rationally. Think from the IAF's viewpoint i.e. sanctions. I said this in the single engine thread and will say again ---> you cannot jump from Tejas Mk1A ----> AMCA. That is just not going to happen. The Mk2 has to exist for AMCA to exist.

Saurav Jha is 100% correct ---> 114 MRFA is coming and so will Tejas Mk2. AMCA will stand on those two pillars.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote: Saurav Jha is 100% correct ---> 114 MRFA is coming and so will Tejas Mk2. AMCA will stand on those two pillars.
Where are we supposed to find the funding for this? 114 MRFA would likely be the most expensive defense deal India ever signs. There would simply be no fiscal space left for the Mk2 after that. Forget Mk2 I would be worried about funding the MKI upgrade and other deals like refuellers and Netra AWACS if MRFA goes through.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

And you are absolutely correct nachiket. There will be delays and long ones. And like in true Indian MoD fashion, everything will come fashionably late. But that is how it works in India.

With regards to the 114 MRFA, they will balance out the payments over the length of the contract. So a $25 - $30 billion deal for 114 MRFA will be stretched out to around 10+ years or longer. That will tie up a good chunk of the IAF's CAPEX for a decade or more, but that appears to be the plan. The Mk2 will come in the early 2030s and AMCA in the following decade. The IAF is likely to become the second largest Rafale operator, outside of the French Air Force.

There is no other way. The IAF is not budging on the S-400 and the GOTUS will not budge either. Avoid-CAATSA-for-MRFA-contract is not going to work either. No engine and Tejas Mk2 will not fly. At that stage, it will be a moot point.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

From SJha's twitter feed dated 30 Sept 2021....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 43747?s=20 ---> I personally feel that the MRFA tender is France's to lose now. The Rafale, in my view, is the frontrunner provided Dassault agrees to a truly deep localization (>75 per cent) and ToT of some essentials. MRFA success should also be linked to jet engine cooperation.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:And you are absolutely correct nachiket. There will be delays and long ones. And like in true Indian MoD fashion, everything will come fashionably late. But that is how it works in India.

With regards to the 114 MRFA, they will balance out the payments over the length of the contract. So a $25 - $30 billion deal for 114 MRFA will be stretched out to around 10+ years or longer. That will tie up a good chunk of the IAF's CAPEX for a decade or more, but that appears to be the plan. The Mk2 will come in the early 2030s and AMCA in the following decade. The IAF is likely to become the second largest Rafale operator, outside of the French Air Force.
The MRFA will not see service in IAF before 2030. We both know deals like this do not happen any faster than that in India. So the 10 year period will be the decade of the 2030's. Same time when the Mk2 is supposed to be ready. Also the very thought of spending billions starting at an unspecified date will make the baboos keep everything in abeyance in this decade. So bye bye MKI upgrade which arguably is far more important than any of these deals.
There is no other way. The IAF is not budging on the S-400 and the GOTUS will not budge either. Avoid-CAATSA-for-MRFA-contract is not going to work either. No engine and Tejas Mk2 will not fly. At that stage, it will be a moot point.
Where has it been reported what sanctions will be enforced the moment the S-400 comes in? Yes the S400 precludes the possibility of India ever getting the F-35, but who said anything about engine sales? If that is the case, we might as well scrap both the Mk2 and the AMCA now. It is too late to change the engine on the Mk2 and even the first 2 squadrons of the AMCA (and I am guessing all prototypes and LSP's) are to be powered by the same engine. Blanket sanctions will hurt us in a lot more ways too. Everything from the C-17's and P-8's to the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A will have problems with spares.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:The IAF believes that sanctions are likely coming with the S-400 in December. This will affect the Tejas Mk1A (GE F404), but will affect the Tejas Mk2 (GE F414) that much more. Price to pay for sovereignty, but it is IMVHO worth it.

However Tejas Mk2 is *NOT* dead, but will arrive in new avatar. However, there will be a delay and thus the push for 114 MRFA (basically Rafale). The Chief has omitted the Mk2 for that very reason in his speech. That new avatar is still in the works.

Folks take emotions out of this and think rationally. Think from the IAF's viewpoint i.e. sanctions. I said this in the single engine thread and will say again ---> you cannot jump from Tejas Mk1A ----> AMCA. That is just not going to happen. The Mk2 has to exist for AMCA to exist.

Saurav Jha is 100% correct ---> 114 MRFA is coming and so will Tejas Mk2. AMCA will stand on those two pillars.
Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.

Will they offer us the rafale line this time or maybe even a JV to build it in India with either the reliance group or the adani group as the JV partner because they are among the ones with the financial clout to deliver.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.
Small correction - the Mirage 2000 line closed in 2007. And the MMRCA 1.0 contest formally took off only in 2007. By the time it ended on 31 Jan 2012, it had been 5+ years. Reviving a Mirage 2000 line at that stage was not going to happen. And the delay from 2001 (when the line was offered) to 2007, was 100% the Govt of India's fault. The French had nothing to do with that. George Fernandes got cold feet over the Tehelka scandal and the rest is history.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The IAF believes that sanctions are likely coming with the S-400 in December. This will affect the Tejas Mk1A (GE F404), but will affect the Tejas Mk2 (GE F414) that much more. Price to pay for sovereignty, but it is IMVHO worth it.

However Tejas Mk2 is *NOT* dead, but will arrive in new avatar. However, there will be a delay and thus the push for 114 MRFA (basically Rafale). The Chief has omitted the Mk2 for that very reason in his speech. That new avatar is still in the works.

Folks take emotions out of this and think rationally. Think from the IAF's viewpoint i.e. sanctions. I said this in the single engine thread and will say again ---> you cannot jump from Tejas Mk1A ----> AMCA. That is just not going to happen. The Mk2 has to exist for AMCA to exist.

Saurav Jha is 100% correct ---> 114 MRFA is coming and so will Tejas Mk2. AMCA will stand on those two pillars.
Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.

Will they offer us the rafale line this time or maybe even a JV to build it in India with either the reliance group or the adani group as the JV partner because they are among the ones with the financial clout to deliver.
The GE engine supplies would not be affected by possible sanctions, I think there was news regarding this pl correct if I am wrong
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kvraghav »

I was just thinking, why don't we have a global tender to appoint the next IAF chief rather than just based on seniority? That way , we might find best leadership in the world for the same cost. After all, we need the best people also along with the best equipment.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by chetak »

kvraghav wrote:I was just thinking, why don't we have a global tender to appoint the next IAF chief rather than just based on seniority? That way , we might find best leadership in the world for the same cost. After all, we need the best people also along with the best equipment.

what's wrong with the one we've got.

Seems ok to me.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by brar_w »

kit wrote: The GE engine supplies would not be affected by possible sanctions, I think there was news regarding this pl correct if I am wrong
This is all pure speculation and nothing has either been discussed, or discussed and made public by GOI or GOTUS. The GE deal was signed very recently (August 2021 for nearly 100 engines), and the new IAF Chief just referenced the ISTAR platform within this presentation itself. If the GOI felt that sanctions were coming in weeks/months there would not have been movement on either of these things or additional things like P-8's etc. Just in the last 30-45 days alone, the Chief of the Naval Staff has met his US counterpart in the US, the Air Chief has visited the US, and the same for the CDS just a couple of weeks ago. Sure doesn't point to imminent sanctions being expected or being considered.
When asked about the ISTAR project, the air chief said the aircraft would be developed with the United States of America under the technology cooperation between the two sides.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Oct 2021 00:41, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.
Small correction - the Mirage 2000 line closed in 2007. And the MMRCA 1.0 contest formally took off only in 2007. By the time it ended on 31 Jan 2012, it had been 5+ years. Reviving a Mirage 2000 line at that stage was not going to happen. And the delay from 2001 (when the line was offered) to 2007, was 100% the Govt of India's fault. The French had nothing to do with that. George Fernandes got cold feet over the Tehelka scandal and the rest is history.
we were offered the dornier 328 line too. But no one took it seriously.

That would have formed the basis of our regional jet.

I was talking about the intent of the frenchies.

Perhaps they have another fighter development aleady in hand and would be willing to ship the rafale line to a country like India.

We have lobbies for every deal and every country operating in India and the inevitable middle man with his palm firmly outstretched. Jokers made money even on the sukhoi deal
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Ankit Desai »

chetak wrote:....

Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.

Will they offer us the rafale line this time or maybe even a JV to build it in India with either the reliance group or the adani group as the JV partner because they are among the ones with the financial clout to deliver.
They already offered a line for Rafale, France president publicly said if GOI place order of 100+ aircraft, they will have aircraft manufacture facility in India, they can not do in order less than 100.

-Ankit
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by chetak »

Ankit Desai wrote:
chetak wrote:....

Before the rafale came into the picture, the frenchies had offered to transfer the Mirage 2k line to India but later withdrew the offer and offered us the rafales instead.

Will they offer us the rafale line this time or maybe even a JV to build it in India with either the reliance group or the adani group as the JV partner because they are among the ones with the financial clout to deliver.
They already offered a line for Rafale, France president publicly said if GOI place order of 100+ aircraft, they will have aircraft manufacture facility in India, they can not do in order less than 100.

-Ankit
There you go.

Thanks Ankit Ji
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:The MRFA will not see service in IAF before 2030. We both know deals like this do not happen any faster than that in India. So the 10 year period will be the decade of the 2030's. Same time when the Mk2 is supposed to be ready. Also the very thought of spending billions starting at an unspecified date will make the baboos keep everything in abeyance in this decade. So bye bye MKI upgrade which arguably is far more important than any of these deals.
The contest as it runs right now - 114 MRFA deal - will not ever see the light of day. So you are correct there. Even the OEMs who are taking part in the contest are well aware of that fact. It is an open secret among the OEMs, that the IAF wants more Rafales and nothing else.

It appears that the plan is to order the Rafale in smaller batches. So perhaps an order of 36 - 72 birds and when payments are complete (in relation to deliveries), another batch will be ordered. Or it could be an order of 90 aircraft with screwdrivergiri, so 126 in total or 7 squadrons.
Where has it been reported what sanctions will be enforced the moment the S-400 comes in? Yes the S400 precludes the possibility of India ever getting the F-35, but who said anything about engine sales? If that is the case, we might as well scrap both the Mk2 and the AMCA now. It is too late to change the engine on the Mk2 and even the first 2 squadrons of the AMCA (and I am guessing all prototypes and LSP's) are to be powered by the same engine. Blanket sanctions will hurt us in a lot more ways too. Everything from the C-17's and P-8's to the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A will have problems with spares.
It is that very ambiguity nachiket, that is worrying the IAF i.e. what sanctions? which program? Remember the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report on MMRCA 1.0? It was documented by the CAG that it was the IAF that did not want an American bird in their stables for this very reason. And back in the late 2000s, there was nothing called CAATSA.

The American entrants are hoping that GOTUS will apply the necessary diplomatic pressure, but the State Department (like a regular alarm clock) keeps reminding India every few months, of what will happen when the S-400 comes. The IAF is publicly silent on the issue of the damocles sword (sanctions), but is well aware that it will likely be their day-to-day operations that will be affected. And contrary to popular belief by American apologists on BRF, sanctions is not some imagination that we on the forum are spinning out of thin air. The US State Department has consistently said that there will be consequences. What those consequences are, we will all come to know once the S-400 is delivered to the IAF in December. What would be worse is not applying the sanctions, but threatening to do that very act. And if India acquiesces on that threat, then the US will do the same again in the future and we will roll over like an obedient puppy. So pay the price, whatever it may be - slap on the wrist on one end of the spectrum, full blown sanctions on the other end of the spectrum and which will affect all American kit in service or something in between. But pay that price.

The proof lies in the pudding ---> why is the IAF insisting that after the first two AMCA squadrons, the turbofans must be of Indian origin? Why not continue with the F414 turbofan? Technically, that engine is proven and used on a variety of platforms. Why risk AMCA with a brand new turbofan? What is the plus in doing that? Especially with 123 Tejas Mk1/Mk1As all powered by F404 turbofans. And the plan was to have over a 100+ Tejas Mk2 with F414 turbofans. 200+ aircraft all powered by a proven and fabulous turbofan - a fact confirmed by a number of Air Chiefs - that comes from a country with a proven political unreliability. And 200+ aircraft - for the Indian Air Force - is a significant portion of the fighter fleet.

All three (F-16 Block 70/72, F-15EX and F-18SH Block III) American contestants in the MRFA competition have decades of service ahead of them. And all three will see service with the USAF and USN. And these aircraft will prevail in any conflict with the PLAAF. This is the same IAF that orders C-17s, C-130s, ISTAR, CH-47s, AH-64s, etc cart blanche...but yet when it comes to a fighter, they go to the French? Why not American? What is so fabulous on the Rafale that honestly the F-teens do not have?

By the way, CAATSA is a brilliant law to deny Russia any foreign military sales. Kudos to whoever in the GOTUS who came up with this.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by brar_w »

Rakesh wrote:The proof lies in the pudding ---> why is the IAF insisting that after the first two AMCA squadrons, the turbofans must be of Indian origin? Why not continue with the F414 turbofan? Technically, that engine is proven and used on a variety of platforms. Why risk AMCA with a brand new turbofan? What is the plus in doing that? Especially with 123 Tejas Mk1/Mk1As all powered by F404 turbofans.
The IAF needs a more capable and higher performance engine to get the performance from the AMCA. Things like IR signature suppression, LO nozzles, higher thrust for supercruise etc etc. Given that no one else has a half a generation to a generation superior engine in the same class as the F-414 currently, it would seem logical for the IAF to plan ahead in terms of what a more mature AMCA platform looks like. You need next gen engines to get some of the higher end performance form your premier 5th gen platform. Even the RuAF don't seem to be ramping up Su-57 production until they have fully quallified the next gen engine. F-35 has a next-gen engine and yet they are considering a half a gen to a gen bump to it to extract even more for mission systems and AV performance. It isn't unreasonable for the IAF to ask for something much better beyond the initial IOC configuration.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Vivek K »

I wish sincerely that sanctions ARE applied. No other way to remind IAF about how important "sovereign" arms sources are necessary. Time to get GTRE off their behinds to produce something!!
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