Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Maybe the RM needs to trod on some toes to go Desi all the way
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
basant, from my conversations with both sides (armed and civvies) and some politician who served in def committees, here is my very limited understanding of how budgets work in central and state levels:basant wrote:Many times I keep wondering, how helpful would it have been if only the unspent budgets are retained with the defence forces. For very many years, govt. kept on showing huge defence layouts without spending most of the capex at the end of financial years.
1) a budget allocation announcement is but an expression of intent by a govt’s finance dept, who got request from a million sources. Allocations can get spent, remain in paper or lapse by end of budget year. It certainly does not mean funds appear in treasury or state banks for departments the day after the announcement.
2) but before the announcement, the entity/Dept that got the budget allocation must have done some serious submission before budget to get the allocation.
3) the easy part is #1), because after the budget announcement, the allocated entity will have to jump through hoops to finally get the allocation translated to actual funds that can be spent. For that every babu from law to revenue will have an opinion and need convincing. For example, some low IQ clerk can write a hand written note on a file margin “Why do we need ATAGS when we have cheaper rifles?” is enough to derail an acquisition because competing interests will leak these to media as “honest whistle blower ignored by higher ups”. So higher babus will send it back down. In a serious security conscious nation, the clerk would be taken outside and slapped till dusk for being that stupid. Not in India, with its shrill media who will make him a hero after getting tips from “sources”.
4) once funds are made available, next comes spending, which again needs all sorts of paperwork, tenders, payments and of course the dreaded AG’s audit.
5) if you don’t do steps 3) and 4), the budget allocations will go to other areas or will be considered as lapsed after current budget cycle.
Armed forces struggle to pass step 3), due to MoD and rest of GoI bureaucracy, because it needs specialist knowledge (aka “fixer”) to deal with the brown spawn of Humphrey Applebee
So it is not like they can say “x amount was not spend, so we have x in our bank to spend next year”. Simply put, if armed forces don’t get to stage 4) due to many reasons (including hrrumphing strenuously at indigenous programs via unending tests) then that budgetary allocation remains on paper or gets carried over to next budget
(Purely IMHO etc etc disclaimers Also might explain why Chandigarh lobby etc do comparatively well compared to local private firms: once a budgetary allocation is made for foreign arms program, steps 3) and 4) are efficiently managed by retired babus who know the system. )
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
hnair saar, wonderful post showing what a cesspit the forces have to navigate to get what they need. The other side of the coin however is the question of which acquisitions the armed forces choose to spend their time and effort in getting through this labyrinthine process. For example, the IA managed to convince all our Humphrey Applebees to clear the acquisition for six Apaches despite it being obvious to everyone that it was merely a product of a turf war with the IAF and an utter waste of $1 billion especially when we are severely lacking in bread and butter stuff in so many areas. The one time where we really needed our baboos and ministers to display their considerable prowess in bureaucratic lethargy and inaction they failed at even that.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Sir, thank you for the detailed reply. Unfortunately, I've I have seen identical issues in non-defense departments, and at some level, a few issues are inevitable. While checks and balances are critical, the lapse of funds is a single most problem at the end of the day. For instance, without such lapses, we might have got a lot of funds (possibly) to afford more Rafales as well as Mk1x/2s simultaneously. The pronouncements of Government that funds are never going to be an issue is pure hogwash.hnair wrote:basant, from my conversations with both sides (armed and civvies) and some politician who served in def committees, here is my very limited understanding of how budgets work in central and state levels:
...
The concept, as you are aware, has been around for years now, and in fact, such non-lapsable fund is available elsewhere. To quote from a 2017 article: "As a matter of fact, a non-lapsable pool of resources for development of the north-eastern region has now been in operation for more than a decade."
Non-lapsable fund is clearly not the panacea; however, it would help in a different way the issue of lack of funds when there is an urgent need, or whenever all the objections and file notings are answered. Currently, many procurements, esp. from Indian suppliers, are pending due to shortage of funds.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
You'd think that made sense but no saar. The powers that be like separate programs. Maybe it helps secure funding.konaseema wrote:Instead of a new program in the name of ORCA, how about more squadrons of AMCA Mk1 or even another version of AMCA like the Korean KF-21, without the internal weapons bay, maybe?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Now read this!nachiket wrote:hnair saar, wonderful post showing what a cesspit the forces have to navigate to get what they need. ....
https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/rea ... anual.html
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
We need a Nitin Gadkari type politician in charge of defense production and building our MIC.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Why do we need one man. If the government is off the people then we as a polity have failed in having a vision of what our country should be and should be aiming for because successive government have failed to address this issue.williams wrote:We need a Nitin Gadkari type politician in charge of defense production and building our MIC.
PArrikar came made some excellent progress and now there is a feeling of atrophy.
Gadkari will be the same.
Sustained change comes from systemic changes that the national collectively gets behind. Right now Modi must be feeling like he is herding cats.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
ks_sachin Saar,ks_sachin wrote:Why do we need one man. If the government is off the people then we as a polity have failed in having a vision of what our country should be and should be aiming for because successive government have failed to address this issue.williams wrote:We need a Nitin Gadkari type politician in charge of defense production and building our MIC.
PArrikar came made some excellent progress and now there is a feeling of atrophy.
Gadkari will be the same.
Sustained change comes from systemic changes that the national collectively gets behind. Right now Modi must be feeling like he is herding cats.
Sometimes you need an individual to get things done. Parrikar was a rare breed that was a technocrat that also asked relevant questions and tried to get solutions to the issues that came to his notice in the MOD. Nirmala Sitaraman had also in the past asked the forces to come with solutions and not just requests/complaints. Maybe Raj Nath Singh ji is working in his own way, don't hear much from his end unless its the negative import list.
A good individual minister for a sustained period of time or a series of individuals who can work and get their departments to work create a work environment or eco-system that becomes the new normal to get things done in the future.
Currently it looks like in MOD people are scared to take a decision and follow all kinds of rules with every clerk to lower level official putting in untimely queries to delay an acquisition and if there is any acquisition it seems a byproduct of following the said rules and regulations.
Remember reading an article posted here in BR about Parrikar who tried his best to get the officials in MOD to make a decision on acquisition with the govt backing them as the convention then seem to be passing files around for getting opinion of all and sundry if the steps followed were correct and not on the actual acquisition.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
DefExpo 2022: IAF to phase out Mig-29, Mirage and Jaguar fighter jets by 2035; LCA Mk2 will replace them
https://newsable.asianetnews.com/india- ... hem-rjzimx
19 Oct 2022
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15826 ... kYsuqgCv4A ---> I am hoping Tejas Mk-2 will be executed like Mk-1A project. The only important timeline is induction into service.
https://newsable.asianetnews.com/india- ... hem-rjzimx
19 Oct 2022
https://twitter.com/KPSingh0809/status/ ... kYsuqgCv4A ---> Is LCA MK2 roll out scheduled to Dec 2023 news true @hvtiaf Sir?While six squadrons of the Jaguar fighter aircraft would be retired by 2032 in a phased manner, commencing from 2025, three squadrons of Mig-21 to be retired by 2024, followed by phasing out of three squadrons each of Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fleets by late next decade.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15826 ... kYsuqgCv4A ---> I am hoping Tejas Mk-2 will be executed like Mk-1A project. The only important timeline is induction into service.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
""There is no engine fighter aircraft on the earth that can carry 8-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles simultaneously. We have developed it keeping in mind that the future is going to be a BVR combat war," he added."
https://newsable.asianetnews.com/india- ... hem-rjzimx
https://newsable.asianetnews.com/india- ... hem-rjzimx
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Is the marketing spin from Boeing not reaching ADA?kit wrote:""There is no engine fighter aircraft on the earth that can carry 8-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles simultaneously. We have developed it keeping in mind that the future is going to be a BVR combat war," he added."
F-15EX - Image below states 22 AAMs!!!
Image Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comment ... ry_22_aam/
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Could be Single engine fighter
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Saar, I am joking onlee. But you are correct. Reading what Dr Madhusudana said, he said single engine, but that word 'single' got omitted when the article was published.
Even the USAF will not send their F-15EXs into the air with 22 AAMs. This is pure marketing.
Even the USAF will not send their F-15EXs into the air with 22 AAMs. This is pure marketing.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I think we should not joke about our own hardworking folks who get shafted from everywhere.
Mk2 is going to be a world beater.
Mk2 is going to be a world beater.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
New milestones:
Engine plans:The first prototype of the Light Combat Aircraft Mk2 is expected to be rolled out by December 2023. By 2035, all squadrons of Mig-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars will be retired in a phased manner. The Defence Research and Development Organisation has set a target for the LCA Mk2 first flight in December 2024 and is envisioned to build four prototypes by 2027. By the end of this decade, the aircraft is expected to join service.
So what is the status of the F-414-INS6 engine?The engine will be manufactured in India. In this regard, we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 percent transfer of technology.....
It must be noted that a more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine will power the Mk-2.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
He probably means single engine. The reporter ate up the single. Am glad to see the IAF is asking for high BVR carriage. This was the exact debate I had on BVR and I was pointing out high number of BVR rounds per mission was a necessity not an avoidable luxury.Rakesh wrote:Is the marketing spin from Boeing not reaching ADA?kit wrote:""There is no engine fighter aircraft on the earth that can carry 8-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles simultaneously. We have developed it keeping in mind that the future is going to be a BVR combat war," he added."
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Absolutely. I meant the comment in jest. While a sizeable BVR loadout is required in today's air combat scenario...what Boeing is displaying in the picture above is pure marketing. As I mentioned earlier, even the USAF will not send a single F-15EX into the air with 22 AAMs.Karan M wrote:He probably means single engine. The reporter ate up the single. Am glad to see the IAF is asking for high BVR carriage. This was the exact debate I had on BVR and I was pointing out high number of BVR rounds per mission was a necessity not an avoidable luxury.
A few years back, HVT Sir had tweeted something similar to that effect. I have to find the tweet.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I found the tweets. Follow the twitter thread below...
https://twitter.com/Mishra__Deepak1/sta ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Dual rack pylons is a good idea. But why can't they have triple rack pylons like some western fighters. MWF has plenty of space for that and even LCA has. Gives you more ordnance carrying capacity. @hvtiaf sir your views.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12428 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Should be possible in Swing Role configuration to carry decent payload of bombs & AAMs. The Mk2 has eleven stations. More than enough. Dual/Multi-racks are very popular for bombs (all aircraft in IAF have - for more weight-of-attack). But not for AAMs. Too many AAMs not required.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12428 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Very Very Expensive. Unaffordable almost. Rs 15+ crore with every trigger press. In any mission, one would expect a fighter to launch not more than four to six missiles, with reasonable assurance of kill. Beyond that, they could just be getting wasted. Possible to carry more. But ungainly.
https://twitter.com/Mishra__Deepak1/sta ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Dual rack pylons is a good idea. But why can't they have triple rack pylons like some western fighters. MWF has plenty of space for that and even LCA has. Gives you more ordnance carrying capacity. @hvtiaf sir your views.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12428 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Should be possible in Swing Role configuration to carry decent payload of bombs & AAMs. The Mk2 has eleven stations. More than enough. Dual/Multi-racks are very popular for bombs (all aircraft in IAF have - for more weight-of-attack). But not for AAMs. Too many AAMs not required.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12428 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Very Very Expensive. Unaffordable almost. Rs 15+ crore with every trigger press. In any mission, one would expect a fighter to launch not more than four to six missiles, with reasonable assurance of kill. Beyond that, they could just be getting wasted. Possible to carry more. But ungainly.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
By Ajay Banerjee
On being asked about Tejas Mark 2, the HAL Chairman said, “We will be able to deliver the first prototype in 2025-26 and have the first flight in 2026-27.”
https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/ ... ief-443564
On being asked about Tejas Mark 2, the HAL Chairman said, “We will be able to deliver the first prototype in 2025-26 and have the first flight in 2026-27.”
https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/ ... ief-443564
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
16 Countries Interested in LCA Tejas Mk2, Efforts on to Identify Private Agencies to Speed Up Production
https://www.news18.com/news/india/16-co ... 22199.html
https://www.news18.com/news/india/16-co ... 22199.html
“There is a huge push from the central government on increasing the production rate of the aircraft with India already getting enquiries about the aircraft from 16 countries,” LCA Mk2 Project Director at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) Dr V Madhusudana Rao told News18 on the sidelines of the DefExpo-2022 here.
“The long lead component manufacturing for the aircraft has begun. By December 2027 we will be completing the design and development of LCA Mark 2 with complete flight testing for all four prototypes and entering into the production of LCA Mark 2 for the IAF,” Rao told News18.
“For LCA Tejas Mark 1A, there are two chain producing eight aircraft each. For Mk2, we are planning three production lines, which will work together to produce 24 aircraft annually,” he said.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Tejas Mk-2 is neither delayed nor early. When it is to be ready is directed in the CCS order by the Government of India, which is issued recently. All other media perceptions or updates are irrelevant.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15836 ... YTH9w&s=19
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15836 ... YTH9w&s=19
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
This is music to our ears!
From being a perennial importer to getting inquiries from 16 countries for a work-in-progress aircraft, it shows how far we have come. And how far we can go!
Another snippet from the article: "IAF has committed to 10 squadrons of the MK2, with 6 in the first batch and 4 in the next"
From being a perennial importer to getting inquiries from 16 countries for a work-in-progress aircraft, it shows how far we have come. And how far we can go!
Another snippet from the article: "IAF has committed to 10 squadrons of the MK2, with 6 in the first batch and 4 in the next"
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Why is GoI going slow on MRFA? When will LCA Tejas Mark-II be ready for induction?
hat aerospace infrastructure does India still lack today and how does it affect her programs?
hat aerospace infrastructure does India still lack today and how does it affect her programs?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
sorry but the above brought back the painful memory of hoping to see the aircraft on aug 2022. Still no news on the full scale model and/or flight testing.
Hoping to see some surprise soon. I truly believe with Mk2 will be the GOAT.
Hoping to see some surprise soon. I truly believe with Mk2 will be the GOAT.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
There has been news on the prototype rollout, you just missed it.bharathp wrote:sorry but the above brought back the painful memory of hoping to see the aircraft on aug 2022. Still no news on the full scale model and/or flight testing.
Hoping to see some surprise soon. I truly believe with Mk2 will be the GOAT.
15 months from the CCS approval, the prototype is to be rolled out, as per what is the schedule agreed upon. That meant it should rollout sometime in December 2023, if timelines are adhered to. First flight will be anywhere between 8-10 months after that.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Excellent questions and nice interview, Prasad.Prasad wrote:Why is GoI going slow on MRFA? When will LCA Tejas Mark-II be ready for induction?
hat aerospace infrastructure does India still lack today and how does it affect her programs?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
it was august 2022Kartik wrote:There has been news on the prototype rollout, you just missed it.bharathp wrote:sorry but the above brought back the painful memory of hoping to see the aircraft on aug 2022. Still no news on the full scale model and/or flight testing.
Hoping to see some surprise soon. I truly believe with Mk2 will be the GOAT.
15 months from the CCS approval, the prototype is to be rolled out, as per what is the schedule agreed upon. That meant it should rollout sometime in December 2023, if timelines are adhered to. First flight will be anywhere between 8-10 months after that.
now its dec 2023? something doesnt seem to add up.
there was a youtube video with the designers/scientists working on Mk2 saying it will be ready by aug 2022 without any iota of doubt (and I truly believe they are working towards that goal)
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
https://twitter.com/bobafetta3050/statu ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> LCA Mk2 in 2025 and first flight in 2026?
https://twitter.com/SaitamaSenpai9/stat ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> @hvtiaf Sir according to this article* more delays in LCA Mk2 program? Is it true?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16181 ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> The timings must be as per the contract given by ADA. I haven't heard of any delay from the contract.
https://twitter.com/bobafetta3050/statu ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> Is rollout happening this year as promised?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16182 ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> The only promise exists on a contract document. Contract is placed on manufacturer only after CCS approval. Every aircraft takes >36 months to manufacture. Delays from manufacturer are charged with LD, which would show up in annual report. Don't believe anything else.
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*HAL getting enquiries from various countries for helicopter orders
https://www.100knots.com/hal-getting-en ... er-orders/
18 Jan 2023
https://twitter.com/SaitamaSenpai9/stat ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> @hvtiaf Sir according to this article* more delays in LCA Mk2 program? Is it true?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16181 ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> The timings must be as per the contract given by ADA. I haven't heard of any delay from the contract.
https://twitter.com/bobafetta3050/statu ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> Is rollout happening this year as promised?
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16182 ... SW7ojb_qwQ ---> The only promise exists on a contract document. Contract is placed on manufacturer only after CCS approval. Every aircraft takes >36 months to manufacture. Delays from manufacturer are charged with LD, which would show up in annual report. Don't believe anything else.
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*HAL getting enquiries from various countries for helicopter orders
https://www.100knots.com/hal-getting-en ... er-orders/
18 Jan 2023
In early September, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) give sanctions for the development of the LCA-Mk2, a bigger and more capable fighter than the present one. “We will be able to deliver the prototype in 2025-26 and have the first flight in 2026-27,” Mr Ananthakrishnan added.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
SO is the LCA MK2 delayed? The non flyable roll out was suppose to happen last August (aug 2022). The first protype was using money left from the LCA mk1 project and protype was well on its way of being manufactured. There is no excuse for this if the news is true. Some accountability is needed. This is how you lose confidence in home grown project. The angle to be explored should be is their a dhoka gang in bed with Chandigarh lobby doing this?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Tejas Mk2 developmental timeline...
• Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned in November 2009 for design and development of the Tejas Mk2. A Preliminary Design Review (PDR) will be part of this and is required to get to the Critical Design Review (CDR) stage.
• Indian Air Force, accepted the Critical Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021. This journey took 12 years from Design & Development ---> PDR ---> CDR. Any questions on delays is right here (2009 - 2021). What developmental path did the program take in 12 years?
• On 31 August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the project to develop the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. This project - which is expected to cost Rs. 6,500 crore - is for the design, development, testing and certification of the aircraft. The > 36 months timeline is envisaged for the aircraft to go from the CDR stage to prototype development and subsequent fabrication. Can this timeline be compressed? I am not sure. Perhaps someone like IR might know.
• First prototype is expected in three years. HAL Chairman is saying 2025 or perhaps even 2026. First flight is expected in 2026 or even 2027. IOC might take a few years with FOC coming in around 2029 or 2030.
• Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned in November 2009 for design and development of the Tejas Mk2. A Preliminary Design Review (PDR) will be part of this and is required to get to the Critical Design Review (CDR) stage.
• Indian Air Force, accepted the Critical Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021. This journey took 12 years from Design & Development ---> PDR ---> CDR. Any questions on delays is right here (2009 - 2021). What developmental path did the program take in 12 years?
• On 31 August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the project to develop the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. This project - which is expected to cost Rs. 6,500 crore - is for the design, development, testing and certification of the aircraft. The > 36 months timeline is envisaged for the aircraft to go from the CDR stage to prototype development and subsequent fabrication. Can this timeline be compressed? I am not sure. Perhaps someone like IR might know.
• First prototype is expected in three years. HAL Chairman is saying 2025 or perhaps even 2026. First flight is expected in 2026 or even 2027. IOC might take a few years with FOC coming in around 2029 or 2030.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
what were all those stories about Tejas Mk2 in the works and ready to roll out? Many of these tweets were from DDR (as well other sources). Something was going on. Either it was vaporware or something else?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
The proof lies in the pudding. The above timeline is all that matters. Rest is vaporware. No point in getting worried over this. Let the program take the time that is required.
What is concerning is why additional Mk1A airframes are not being acquired to stem the tide of retiring squadrons. No one is asking the Mk1A to be in a similar combat capability as the upcoming Mk2. However, an additional 3 - 4 squadrons of the Mk1A is going to derail the combat capability of the IAF how exactly? I would really like to know.
As per the pilots' own admission, the Mk1 variant is better than the Jaguar and non-upgraded Mirage 2000. One can only imagine how more capable an AESA-equipped Mk1A variant will be. Air HQ and MoD has the time, budgeting funds and human capital to plan for a production line for the MRFA, but no money for improving the existing Tejas lines or adding new ones?
Would it be suicidal for Air HQ to announce additional Mk1A squadrons at next month's Aero India show? Would it be a stain on the reputation of the IAF to show a commitment to the Mk2 program by signing an order of intent for the Mk2 in triple digits? Where is the buy in?
What is concerning is why additional Mk1A airframes are not being acquired to stem the tide of retiring squadrons. No one is asking the Mk1A to be in a similar combat capability as the upcoming Mk2. However, an additional 3 - 4 squadrons of the Mk1A is going to derail the combat capability of the IAF how exactly? I would really like to know.
As per the pilots' own admission, the Mk1 variant is better than the Jaguar and non-upgraded Mirage 2000. One can only imagine how more capable an AESA-equipped Mk1A variant will be. Air HQ and MoD has the time, budgeting funds and human capital to plan for a production line for the MRFA, but no money for improving the existing Tejas lines or adding new ones?
Would it be suicidal for Air HQ to announce additional Mk1A squadrons at next month's Aero India show? Would it be a stain on the reputation of the IAF to show a commitment to the Mk2 program by signing an order of intent for the Mk2 in triple digits? Where is the buy in?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Pure devil's advocate - (and I still would want more MK1A rather than some phoren fighter (except Rafale - we should get 3-5 sq))
1. Mk1 and mk1a have limitations on range and payload (and size, meaning what extra features can be put into it) - they are Mig21 class fighters. Some are needed, IAF thinks 123 is sufficient, 183 maybe 60 too many.
2.Mk2 fits nicely into medium category where IAF wants most of its fighter to be in (its favorite M2K) - enough range and payload
It may not order more mk1 for the above reason. Or it could be phoren maal
1. Mk1 and mk1a have limitations on range and payload (and size, meaning what extra features can be put into it) - they are Mig21 class fighters. Some are needed, IAF thinks 123 is sufficient, 183 maybe 60 too many.
2.Mk2 fits nicely into medium category where IAF wants most of its fighter to be in (its favorite M2K) - enough range and payload
It may not order more mk1 for the above reason. Or it could be phoren maal
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I think we are under appreciating the challenge Indian MIC is going through to have a scaled production line for LCA. IAF will take all it can get with MK1A or Mk2 - if we can scale and produce.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
If timeline for mk2 is slipping, IAF should evaluate progress of Tejas mk1 trainer and order 40 mk1a trainers. Tejas mk1 is the bird we have in hand. Too much of criticism by IAF has not done any good these 3 decades. It'll not do any more now. We need numbers in fighter aircraft and the twin-seat version will aid in development of CATS warrior and other programs like LIFT. IAF and HAL can look at this angle.
HAL and IAF blame game is not useful. IAF should not be too stubborn. Our 'Import my air force' chief should also wait till next election to sign a couple of more Rafale squadrons with Navy getting a few leased or bought for Vikrant.
HAL and IAF blame game is not useful. IAF should not be too stubborn. Our 'Import my air force' chief should also wait till next election to sign a couple of more Rafale squadrons with Navy getting a few leased or bought for Vikrant.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Just so everyone is clear, the total cost is Rs 2500+6500= 9000 crores ie slightly about $1.2BRakesh wrote:Tejas Mk2 developmental timeline...
• Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned in November 2009 for design and development of the Tejas Mk2. A Preliminary Design Review (PDR) will be part of this and is required to get to the Critical Design Review (CDR) stage.
• Indian Air Force, accepted the Critical Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021. This journey took 12 years from Design & Development ---> PDR ---> CDR. Any questions on delays is right here (2009 - 2021). What developmental path did the program take in 12 years?
{There were three design iterations where the Tejas Mk2 grew in length and weight with the same engine. So in those 12 years, Mk2 was designed thrice. And finally was agreed to by the customer. My comment Mk2 will end up needing a newer engine as F414 can deliver only so much thrust.}
• On 31 August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the project to develop the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. This project - which is expected to cost Rs. 6,500 crore - is for the design, development, testing, and certification of the aircraft. The > 36 months timeline is envisaged for the aircraft to go from the CDR stage to prototype development and subsequent fabrication. Can this timeline be compressed? I am not sure. Perhaps someone like IR might know.
{The 36-month timeline is for the detailed design of the final approved CDR configuration and includes mfg, testing, and certification. That's a reasonable timeline. Taking shortcuts here will compromise the end product. After whiling away 12 years can't hit the donkey to run faster.}
• First prototype is expected in three years. HAL Chairman is saying 2025 or perhaps even 2026. First flight is expected in 2026 or even 2027. IOC might take a few years with FOC coming in around 2029 or 2030.
And 36 months to complete from CDR to certification.
One question is if IAF accepted CDR in Nov 2021, what took till August 2022 to get CCS approval? Who has to x to get the funding approved? Does IAF have any stake in that?
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
The question is what about dwindling squadron numbers?fanne wrote:Pure devil's advocate - (and I still would want more MK1A rather than some phoren fighter (except Rafale - we should get 3-5 sq))
1. Mk1 and mk1a have limitations on range and payload (and size, meaning what extra features can be put into it) - they are Mig21 class fighters. Some are needed, IAF thinks 123 is sufficient, 183 maybe 60 too many.
2.Mk2 fits nicely into medium category where IAF wants most of its fighter to be in (its favorite M2K) - enough range and payload
It may not order more mk1 for the above reason. Or it could be phoren maal
These extra 60 can make up at least three squadrons and are good enough for TSP.
Actually, Mk2 is the swing fighter as it will make up for any shortages.
So cru cial to stick to its milestones.
Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
if you really look even MK1A is a swing fighter (technology development has brought that out, it really takes very little for a fighter to become an attack aircraft, mostly it is software changes, very less hardware). Though MK1A will have limitations on what it can carry, how far, how long, how much etc. because of its size.
Small size = low cost to acquire and maintain = large numbers. So if we are true to ourselves, we should get more of it.
Small size = low cost to acquire and maintain = large numbers. So if we are true to ourselves, we should get more of it.