Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Pratyush
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Griffin??
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Tanaji »

The CAS fixed wing for IA arises from past requirements and statements. IAF has often stated in the past that they have no desire to be long ranged artillery for the IA. The IA on its part has expressed a desire to have an organic air component. This is borne out by the desire to have attack helicopters and the resulting tussle with IAF.

If IA were to be given fixed wing assets, they would obviously have to be theatre level and share training facilities with IAF to reduce costs. Deep strike would still remain with IAF as would be the responsibility for the initial “breaking down the door” type of missions. Kargil/Longewala type missions would be more suited for the IA component.

This obviously has glaring holes and is not so simple to do…
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

Tanaji wrote:The CAS fixed wing for IA arises from past requirements and statements. IAF has often stated in the past that they have no desire to be long ranged artillery for the IA. The IA on its part has expressed a desire to have an organic air component. This is borne out by the desire to have attack helicopters and the resulting tussle with IAF.

If IA were to be given fixed wing assets, they would obviously have to be theatre level and share training facilities with IAF to reduce costs. Deep strike would still remain with IAF as would be the responsibility for the initial “breaking down the door” type of missions. Kargil/Longewala type missions would be more suited for the IA component.

This obviously has glaring holes and is not so simple to do…
isnt that why theater commands came into place rather than dividing assets
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by mody »

konaseema wrote: But it may also be due to the fear of the Union govt forcing their hand to buy only Tejas Mk2 or more Tejas Mk1A, if they openly back these products and / or commit to more squadrons of these two.

.
That statement right there is the biggest problem. How can the IAF be fearful of being made to use more indigenous platforms as opposed to imported hanger queens. The Tejas and the all the indigenous air to air and air ground precision guided weapons is that best thing to happen to the IAF. They can really scale up the numbers and have a large inventory of BVR missiles and PGMs, which till now have been a luxury for them, to be used sparingly only.
With domestically developed and manufactured products, the Opex will come down drastically. Just yesterday there was a news item that due to indigenization of some of the parts and components of the Su-30MKI, including the tyres, the IAF has been able to save about 600 Crores in maintenance expenses, over the last 5 years.

Earlier it was always reported that IAF was not interested in Tejas MK1 and it was the MK2 that they really wanted. It was scaled up, as per what the IAF was wanting. Now that it is in the same class as the F-21 and Gripen-NG, suddenly it cannot be called MWF and will be bought only after testing the final prototype or now after some clarification, the IAF commitment is only for 108 aircrafts, down from almost 200!!

The military top brass in India has very little strategic thinking. Here is a post I had written in June 2020, what is needed to built a robust MIC. A long post, but even after 2 years, still makes sense, at least to me ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7603&p=2559151#p2559144
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Open question to detractors: Name ANY technical difficulty in manufacturing prototypes of LCA Tejas Mk2.

https://twitter.com/MacaulaysMonkey/sta ... dF1uECKNZw ---> The keyboards at the Finance Ministry that reject any keystrokes spelling out "Tejas Mk.2" or "MWF".
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote:From Nitin Gokhale:

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8q9bA&s=19 ---> So calm down everyone fretting about @IAF_MCC apparently not backing LCA MK2. Just checked and it turns out Air HQ has already committed to buy 6 squadrons of the MK2. Additional numbers to be decided after production begins. @BharatShaktiBSI @StratNewsGlobal
https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Whilst you are checking with the IAF could you ask them where half of their commitment has gone? In the space of 4 years, they went from 201 to 170 to ~110 but their commitment to MRFA has never wavered from 114 units even once.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

That's the crux of the matter. The initial request for 201 gets tapered with every new chief!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

This is what I was searching for!!!!!

This is a post by Abhibhushan Sir » 31 Mar 2018 18:29
To celebrate the completion of 65 years of commissioned service and 50 years since assuming my first command of an operational unit, visited the Flying Daggers for tea and crew room Gup.

The boys are all experienced pilots.

Boys come from varied backgrounds. M2K, Jaguar, MiG-29, and MiG-27 are all represented. Soon there will be boys from Su-30MKI as well. The boys were all very upbeat about their present mount.

Some snippets from crew room chatter.

— the Mk1 is better than the non-upgraded Mirage 2000
— talk about difficulties with maintenance are exaggerated
— intensive operations have been tried out successfully
— lots of scope to increase its might
— if it is compared with all other fighters in the IAF for all-round ability, it will easily be within the top third of the list.[/b]

A very happy day for me.
So what aircraft is the Air HQ assessing?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by pravula »

ramana wrote:That's the crux of the matter. The initial request for 201 gets tapered with every new chief!
Who is gonna stop MOD from creating a SSB air wing with 250 Mk2? The funds will obviously come from IAF budget and people will need to be laid off…Hopefully from the succession line…
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SidSoma »

pravula wrote: Who is gonna stop MOD from creating a SSB air wing with 250 Mk2? The funds will obviously come from IAF budget and people will need to be laid off…Hopefully from the succession line…
1. Judiciary: The umpteen PILs that will be filed that the due process was not followed for the procurement.
2. Judiciary: The multiple clarification queries and stays that the court will issue
3. Media: Full force of all the hit jobs that will be brought to bear. Corruption insinuations that will erupt (GE engine kick back, Cobham kick back blah blah)
4. Media: How Tejas is weakening the air force. How it cant fight in the rain. How delayed it is. How over budget it is. How meteor is not integrated on it.
5. MoD babus and IAF: How the fighting strength of the nation has been compromised. How the nation is being sold to China and Pakistan. How happy they are with this deal. How this is the weakest Govt.
6. Vendors: May be CAA will come back. Modi and Co will be attacked. They will work with "Sisters" (Indian and Italian alike) to bring the Govt down. It will be a tamasha.

It is never so simple in a democracy. Every one has a voice and they will unite against even good decisions
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

pravula wrote: Who is gonna stop MOD from creating a SSB air wing with 250 Mk2? The funds will obviously come from IAF budget and people will need to be laid off…Hopefully from the succession line…
Simpler solutions exist. In the next indigenization list, add fighter planes. The only fighters that can be imported should be add-on orders to the existing fleet (Rafale, Su-30 MKI etc), but even that is subject to CCS approval.

With one stroke of a pen, RM Rajnath Singh can kill MRFA

Will he do it?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:This is what I was searching for!!!!!

This is a post by Abhibhushan Sir » 31 Mar 2018 18:29

So what aircraft is the Air HQ assessing?
Dassault's Rafale C/B in F3R(I).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Simpler solutions exist. In the next indigenization list, add fighter planes. The only fighters that can be imported should be add-on orders to the existing fleet (Rafale, Su-30 MKI etc), but even that is subject to CCS approval.

With one stroke of a pen, RM Rajnath Singh can kill MRFA

Will he do it?
He cannot do it. No politician or Govt wants to leave a legacy of weakening the nation or (even worse) losing a war. Air HQ will constantly play up the drum of 114 MRFA and how the technology is a must have. Rajnath Singh does not know any better. He will believe whatever Air HQ tells him. This is not his area of expertise.

The common variable between VK Krishna Menon and Jawaharlal Nehru was the debacle over China. The loss in the 1962 Indo-China War is the result of their asinine policies. No politician in India today, wants to wear that moniker. So 114 MRFA it is.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

MoD can strike down MRFA citing financial infeasibility pretty easily. They don't need to talk of 36 or 54 Rafales/others for the purpose. MoD can appoint another committee with experts that would recommended Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA in future. The 114 number cuts both ways.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:MoD can strike down MRFA citing financial infeasibility pretty easily. They don't need to talk of 36 or 54 Rafales/others for the purpose. MoD can appoint another committee with experts that would recommended Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA in future. The 114 number cuts both ways.
They can have it all - 114 MRFA, 200 Tejas Mk2s, additional Mk1As and even AMCAs. There are that many airframes (and squadrons) that need one-to-one replacements over the next two decades. The numbers don't lie. The IAF will lose 10 squadrons (MiG-29s, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars) over the next two decades. And there is already a 10 - 12 squadron shortage as of today. Therefore, sufficient room is there for the induction of imported and local aircraft.

But this buy-in has to come in from Air HQ and no one else. There will be no AMCA without significant investments in numbers and technology in the Tejas Mk2 program. That is a must for AMCA to succeed.

But since Air HQ will not buy in, the PMO needs to step in here. Give Air HQ what they want (114 MRFA i.e. basically Rafale). But the PMO should also categorically state that this 114 MRFA is directly tied into 200 Tejas Mk2s + additional Mk1As. We have a policy called Atmanirbhar Bharat and self reliance is the only way forward. So after 114 MRFA, there will be no further imports of any fighter aircraft.

I know Air HQ will squirm (and then balk) at such a proposal. But let them. Either the PMO does this or all this talk of Atmanirbhar Bharat is just hot air.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/155 ... Cz6Yu8Dhlg ---> 'No War No Peace' requires cheaper to operate single-engined fighters or India's enemies may end up running the AF ragged with just routine scrambles if it relies on expensive twin-engine heavy fighters. The case for greater numbers of Tejas MK1A & MK2 is stronger than ever.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/155 ... Cz6Yu8Dhlg ---> And to be clear: Both the MK1A and MK2 will be very capable aircraft.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/155 ... Cz6Yu8Dhlg ---> Chicoms are very cleverly using single-engine J-10 variants for triggering ORPs. And the Pakistanis in any case do not have a single twin-engine fighter jet in their inventory.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

That is addressing Half the problem: that of capital equipment.

Trueblue IAF is organized in true-blue Britsh aerobatic air fauj , till date. So the other half of the problem is cost of owning & operating the manpower of current 30 odd fighter sqns + the 10 odd "number plated sqns " whose manpower got allocated (over last 30 yrs) to other New units that are " not-flying fighters" in nature. So who is going to pay for that 25% of new sqns to bring back to life?

Only when useless (less than human) "other trades" (read: NOT blue eyed fighter jockeys) get hired as phantom (no pay or house), lead by a winged jockey "Flying Affsar" to man the 10+ Phoenix phantom Squadrons.
Last edited by ramana on 26 Jul 2022 05:25, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by Ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

BRFites are from Venus & MOD is from Mars. Can't think of anything else based on what we want for our IAF and what is being ordered / not ordered. My bet is for the funding to be sanctioned for Tejas Mk2 Q1 2023 and an order placed with HAL by Q4 2023. The optimist / realist in me says that the IAF chief wants to see if there are any other 5th generation technologies that can be incorporated in Tejas Mk2A once the production run for Mk2 starts in 2026-27 timeframe and then place the next order for 6 more Squadrons. MMRCA in 2025 (if at all) or a follow on order of 36 more Rafale's in Q3 2024 and not before that.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh I was being sarcastic in that the IAF has a ghar ki margin but are assessing it as dal!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Rakesh I was being sarcastic in that the IAF has a ghar ki margin but are assessing it as dal!!
Ok.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Folks can we tone down the angst.
It doesn't help being emotional.
Thanks,
Ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote: He cannot do it. No politician or Govt wants to leave a legacy of weakening the nation or (even worse) losing a war. Air HQ will constantly play up the drum of 114 MRFA and how the technology is a must have. Rajnath Singh does not know any better. He will believe whatever Air HQ tells him. This is not his area of expertise.

The common variable between VK Krishna Menon and Jawaharlal Nehru was the debacle over China. The loss in the 1962 Indo-China War is the result of their asinine policies. No politician in India today, wants to wear that moniker. So 114 MRFA it is.
Fair point. But to mitigate that, all the RM has to do is announce an order for 200 MK2 while canceling the MRFA order. Make it clear that the 2 are related. The MK2 is the indigenous alternative to MRFA. Stress the fact that we will get more MK2s for lesser price, thereby addressing the squadron strength issue & making us stronger vis-a-vis China. Explain that the MRFA will drain the exchequer, while delivering fewer birds.

Dare the IAF to come back and diss the MK2 vis-a-vis the MRFA. That's an argument they are very, very careful to avoid!

But agree with you about the current RM. He is no Parikkar and I don't think he has the capacity to take this call. But Modi will get this easily. Understanding this issue is not rocket science. It can be explained in 10 powerpoint slides in 30 min.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

^^Dont u think if it was that simple it would be done.
This is not just about MRFA and MK2 but more than that.
Every man and his dog has skin in the game.
And Modi has other fish to fry.
And Modi cannot be the default problem solver for everything

Why not ATAGS, Indian made rifles, LCH, LUH, Arjun ……
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by suryag »

Rakesh garu, needless rambling below, but have faith in this MoD;

I suspect that the GoI/MoD is telling IAF "khelo jitna khelna hai, aakhir mein hamara decision hoga" Go back in time sir, I thought MK1A was just hot air when it first appeared in 2014-15, but then we now have firm orders for that and also almost firm orders for MK2(the numbers may not be to our liking, but still). Frankly, I thought Tejas would be given a quiet burial but this GoI/MoD did things differently. BTW, the one thing that scares officers(uniformed or otherwise) is to put their name on recommendations for equipment purchases/contracts and MoD is using this unwieldiness of the system effectively. Did someone get the Rafales that they needed ? no they didnt. Will IN get 18s or Ms no i dont think so, they will get the TEDBF and where did the money for that development come from ? if MoD were not serious why would they even sanction this via HAL/ADA in the first place. Long story short I believe the following
for IAF will happen
1. Mk1-> MK1A upgrade
2. MK1A
3. MK2
4. some tthukda rafale squadrons if at all we need to please francuvas for something else

for IN
1. It is TEDBF
2. F/A18 & Ms are just to keep the officers busy - reiterating, the officers in our armed forces will brave bullets/shells/missiles but cannot brave the accounts dept/AG questions on documents they signed :)

Yes, there are concerns regarding our long term planning but thats a systemic issue(we have never done that except for that outdated 39 squadron number from 1960-70s study) and will resolve in 3-5 years. Someday in the near future I hope to see a future vision on desired capabilities commensurate with our aspirations -> derivative longer term force mix plan -> HAL/private entity combo servicing the same.

The wheels are turning in our favour sir


And finally, even in subs I strongly believe we will get indigenous 75 derivatives by 2035(I hate that timeframe but ...)

This GoI/MoD's approach is "Arasan andru kolvaan, Deivan(GoI/MoD) Nindru Kollum" philosophy w.r.t these lobbies
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VishnuS »

ramana wrote:
fanne wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
I am quoting you guys as I don't know how to tag and get your attention to my post.

At times, I become Super Optimistic and I feel the below scenario can be consider as one such incident, please let me even if there is a remote possibility of this happening.

IAF really feels that they want MRFA and Tejas MK2 is not capable for future requirements. Henne they are not willing to commit! And want something certified by others!!

Now coming to Govt, I believe they are willing to play along, want to use IAF's request as carrot and get something in return??

As of today, there is no proper RFP from GOI, but only IAF's request and that is not formal one either. But apart from fighter we also see the discussion about Jet Engines. I am sure you and many of our forum members followed it with interest.

My guess is GOI wants to use IAF's informal request for more aircraft as a carrot for the Safran and France to give us what we need for the engine development. We had bad experience from the past related to engine development. This MRFA will act as a carrot for Safran and France to give us what we actually want. If my guess is right, then we will order another batch(36) of Rafale in 2024-25 that too based on the France's willingness to share the engine tech, with another carrot hanging for 2030's. We may also use F-18SH and get F414 MRO facility set up with the naval deal. F414 MRO might be the only reason we are waiting on F-18SH. F414 MRO purpose is to make sure that Safran is actually giving us the required tech and that too quickly, else they will know that another order of Rafales is not coming and the money with it. Moreover by the time all this happens we will be a far stronger economy than we are today, I am sure the our future economic weight is also taken into consideration by these countries when they are trying to sell their tech. 2025-26 is the timeline when HTFE is going to come online, our Jet engine core tech will also improve and HTFE will act as a base to improve our tech. All these are done to convince France and Safran to give us what we want at a decent price.

Please let me know where I had gone from distant possibility to pure fiction.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Neela »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Fair point. But to mitigate that, all the RM has to do is announce an order for 200 MK2 while canceling the MRFA order. Make it clear that the 2 are related. The MK2 is the indigenous alternative to MRFA. Stress the fact that we will get more MK2s for lesser price, thereby addressing the squadron strength issue & making us stronger vis-a-vis China. Explain that the MRFA will drain the exchequer, while delivering fewer birds.
Below are some of the costs/numbers comparison that would be interesting.

MRFA vs MK2

- Acquisition cost
- Average Mission/Sortie Cost
- Full Overhaul Cost
- Lifetime total cost to exchequer

At Air HQ level, financial implications , the ability to understand cost-benefit analysis should be a fundamental requirement. I'd say the government should ask the Air chief to present the numbers - let him show both technical and financial parameters. Just like every organization , even at middle management level does.

This 12 squadrons, and then 6 now, rest later reeks of flippant attitude, disinterest towards MIC, and more dangerously, a lack of deeper engagement with domestic industry. This trend will continue to AMCA too because right now, it is easy to make large promises on an non-existent aircraft.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

VishnuS wrote:
.
Nobody is giving away the precious Engine IP for a one time order of Jets.. Not the Russians, Not the Americans and not the French

You may get some MRO facilities set up or even some simple TOT but neither of that will help us understand how to make these engines on our own or use that tech with indigenous upgrades etc etc

We have been making Su-30 engines in house at HAL for decades now with "TOT".. How much actual engine tech have we gained from that?.. Can we now create a Al-41 version of the Al-31??

So why do you think that we're gonna understand something exceptional by doing the same for Snecma M88 or GE414?

The only way we get the engine tech is to either do it ourselves with these companies being nothing more than an advisor or by buying one of these firms outright or just plain old stealing/reverse engineering trial and error like our neighbors
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

ks_sachin wrote:^^Dont u think if it was that simple it would be done.
This is not just about MRFA and MK2 but more than that.
Every man and his dog has skin in the game.
And Modi has other fish to fry.
And Modi cannot be the default problem solver for everything

Why not ATAGS, Indian made rifles, LCH, LUH, Arjun ……
Because, how-much-ever we hate it, Team Modi's bench-strength is not something to be proud of. So, its Modi-this and Modi-that for everything. Maybe he likes it that way. I don't know.

Its a $10+ Billion purchase. If he can hold PMO meetings with Chief Secretaries monitoring Infra projects worth only a fraction of that, then its worth his time to monitor this

And why IAF/MRFA? Because the IAF is the crown-jewel of our services (at least the glamorous one) and the MRFA is IAF's crown jewel. A public cancellation of the MRFA in favor of MK2 will send a message down the ranks of all 3 services. Its like the dad smacking the eldest in front of everyone in the family. The younger ones will behave.

If you want a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, he/RM can say that the IAF is fully-onboard with the decision and laud the Chief for whole-heartedly supporting Atmanirbhar (+ throw in 2 squadrons of Rafale as burnol for butt-hurt). It'll be like Jim Hacker in Yes Minister cornering Humphrey. Dare the Chief to come out and say "I disagree" :D
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

AkshaySG wrote:
We have been making Su-30 engines in house at HAL for decades now with "TOT".. How much actual engine tech have we gained from that?.. Can we now create a Al-41 version of the Al-31??
Everything I am saying is from the internet, though they come from HVT and other respectable sources. The 'ToT' has done some good.

1. It looks like we have taken the original AL-3, and made it better than the Russians from a reliability point of view. We have also significantly improved it. It is correct to say that most advanced and reliable AL-31 engine is in India and not Russia or China or Vietnam or anywhere else.
2. It is good and reliable that we are willing to forgo AL-41 retrofit to SU30MKI. It may increase the thrust, but we have to reinvent a very costly wheel again for reliability, maintainability etc.
3. Just few months ago, Govt has allocated 3500 crores towards AL-31 indigenization (that's half billion dollars). I suspect, that is to lick whatever is lacking till now.
4. There is a persistent rumor on Project Ganga to make AL-31F engine wholly in India

Open questions -
1. Do we make all parts here, including SC blades? Rumor is that we got ToT for that
2. Another speculation, for most parts of SU30MKI, I think the 'raw material' was provided by Russia, and from there on we were given ToT to fashion the end product.
3. Maybe we are now moving towards making the raw material ourselves, at least for engines. So that gives us full capability (or near full) to make exactly AL-31. We cannot make AL-41 (as we do not have the know-how, or more importantly there is no funded project for that). I think the better question is can we make RD-33 wholly on our own. The 'ToT' there may not be as deep as AL-31. If we can do that, we make at least 130 (IAF 80+IN 50) Mig 29, engine proof. Also for uncertain foreign relations, we have an F-414 class engine (though the engine is at least 2 generations behind in tech compared to F414).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bala »

All aircraft engines in operation/production have a common father in the BMW 003 engine which after WW-2 was taken over by the US, French and Russians. It is a similar story on rockets. Dr. Nambi Narayanan stated that there were 3 designs that evolved for liquid rockets and the world has US, French and Russian designs. The Chinese took their cue from the Russian design both in aircraft engines and rockets. The Chinese espionage network gives them access to all three. India worked with the French on rockets and the Vikas (named after Vikram A Sarabhai) engine evolved which is the workhorse of SLV, PSLV, GSLV.

India for some reason started an ab initio flat rated engine for aircrafts. All three (US, French, Russians) don't know whether their contributions would work to enhance the flat rated Indian engine. India is on its own to fix issues and improve each and every critical component. As far as tech transfer, we are left with taking what they currently have. For this to happen, they are not going to give away their jewels. I might add that HAL has deeper understanding on operations/production of engines than GTRE has.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

AkshaySG wrote:
VishnuS wrote: Nobody is giving away the precious Engine IP for a one time order of Jets.. Not the Russians, Not the Americans and not the French.
The only way we get the engine tech is to either do it ourselves with these companies being nothing more than an advisor or by buying one of these firms outright or just plain old stealing/reverse engineering trial and error like our neighbors
a brand-new engine would cost around 1-10 billion USD depending on the sophistication for designing and building protypes. India has indicated they would be willing to spend half the costs on a shared basis.

New aircraft orders are not linked with possible Safran/RR collaboration

We don't need to reinvent the wheel if we can, and we don't steal.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Anujan »

I have a positive opinion of MK2. It will be ordered in numbers. I also expect Mk1A will be ordered in numbers.

China is beginning to do to India what it does to Taiwan and Japan. They frequently send air patrols for which Taiwan scrambles its fighters. Doing this often means that it reduces the remaining lifetime of Taiwan's airframes. For example see here: https://www.rappler.com/world/asia-paci ... air-force/

Mostly this is a package of a dozen J-17 (Bandaar) and JH-7, all old maal and presumably cheap to operate. Taiwan scrambles its F16s. Other sources

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... perability
With Chinese aircraft performing frequent approaches, now almost daily, Taipei’s fleet is increasingly strained to intercept them. The age of Taiwan’s aircraft means that they must spend more time on the ground for every hour in the air than when they first entered service, and the maintenance requirements have increased the more the fighters are flown. The result is that Taiwan’s fleet is being worn out and becoming less and less combat capable, and Beijing effectively blunting the ROC Air Force’s capabilities without firing a shot.
https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-air-for ... at-1575053
Taiwan's air force pilots spent an additional 1,000 hours in the sky last year responding to Chinese warplane incursions into the island's defensive airspace, a government report revealed Wednesday.
From news reports, this is happening to India as well. Both in LAC and Arunachal. We need a single engine fighter, cheap to operate, which can be enhanced and serviced domestically to face this threat. Gold plated MRFA will not cut it. We need Mk1A and MK2. That too in numbers. Remember that over its lifetime, we had ~875 Mig-21s.

Given Pakistan's dekhonomoney, MK1A and MK2 can take on anything Pakistan can throw at us today and 10 years from now.

Sure, there is an import pasand lobby. But sooner or later, sense will dawn about money, numbers and domestic production ability.

I expect the progress to be like what we had for Akash or Pinaka. Few years of kicking and screaming and planted articles about how the systems were bad. Followed by 5 years of induction of thousands of missiles. Followed by elated articles about the new features we are getting in the improved version.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

yes i think the IAF heard you., one of the Tejas squadrons is moving to the NE now !!., Rafales will stay put 8)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Fair point. But to mitigate that, all the RM has to do is announce an order for 200 MK2 while canceling the MRFA order. Make it clear that the 2 are related. The MK2 is the indigenous alternative to MRFA. Stress the fact that we will get more MK2s for lesser price, thereby addressing the squadron strength issue & making us stronger vis-à-vis China. Explain that the MRFA will drain the exchequer, while delivering fewer birds.

Dare the IAF to come back and diss the MK2 vis-à-vis the MRFA. That's an argument they are very, very careful to avoid!
We have to understand what Air HQ is looking for in the MRFA purchase. Peel away the layers that Air HQ loves phoren fighters (and they do!), that Air HQ is staffed with fighter jocks (which it is) that love hot rods, that Air HQ has little to no faith (which is true) in HAL to deliver a quality product....what is left?

To answer that question, one has to delve into how the IAF sees itself conducting future air offensive missions. So what role will air power play in the Indian subcontinent, especially vis-à-vis China? The PAF is a known variable. Set aside their bluster and the IAF will mop the PAF up. Losses for the IAF will obviously be there, but nothing drastic that will result in a loss for the IAF. So then when we shift our focus to the eastern front, it is the PLAGF that is the worry, combined with the assets of the PLAAF.

The IAF's main role is take the fight into enemy territory/airspace. The IAF is not in the business of just conducting protection of its own air bases or other vital assets within our territory. They have to hit the enemy on their ground or in their airspace. So how does the IAF achieve that goal? First by breaking down the door for the other IAF assets to enter in. And that is easier said than done. But once the door is broken down, then you send in those other assets to do their job.

Breaking down the door is crucial, otherwise the IAF's losses will be very high. It is not even the airframes lost that will be painful, but the pilots who will lose their lives in these suicide missions. Of all the contestants in the MMRCA contest, the Rafale is the most suitable aircraft to conduct SEAD/DEAD (Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences) missions. These missions are extremely dangerous to the pilots who undertake them, but they have to be done. So you need a platform that can do this. This was one of the key reasons why the Rafale was chosen.

The most ideal platform for such a mission is a VLO platform (F-35, AMCA, etc). But the IAF is not going to get her hands on the F-35 and the AMCA is another 15+ years away. We lost one MiG-21 Bison in Feb 2019 and the rona-dhona (on social media and even on BRF) was a sight to see. The IAF will lose aircraft left, right and centre in a full blown conflict against the PLAGF and the PLAAF, in the absence of conducting SEAD/DEAD missions. Then folks here will get asthma attacks seeing those losses.

So how does this all tie into the Tejas Mk2? The Tejas Mk2 will have to bring to the table capabilities that surpasses (or at the least matches) the Spectra EW suite, MBDA's SCALP cruise missile and other systems found on the Rafale. But anything short of this capability, Air HQ will hum & haw and claim that the Tejas Mk2 is not up to the task. And this is very necessary to fully exploit the platform and this will happen on the Tejas Mk2. That is guaranteed. Mirage 2000 was the baseline in developing the Tejas Mk1. Rafale like capabilities will be the baseline in developing the Tejas Mk2. This is 100% doable and I say that without jingoism or hyper nationalism. SCALP is not some magic bullet that India cannot replicate. Neither are any of the other systems on the Rafale. But it requires funding and commitment.

But this is where the disconnect lies ---> Air HQ wants Rafale F4 type capability in the very first prototype of the Tejas Mk2. That is like asking Lockheed Martin to bring F-21 type capability on the first prototype of the F-16 that flew way back in the mid 1970s. What Air HQ is asking for is quite frankly unobtanium and they know it. I recently posted this tweet, but very relevant to this discussion;

https://twitter.com/EpicRotis/status/15 ... TLlsgSMKgQ --->

HAL: "We will scale production rate based on orders"

IAF: "We will scale orders based on production rate"


So what Air HQ wants no OEM on Planet Earth can provide. They will decide on orders based on how capable the platform is and on the production rate. But they will take *ZERO* ownership on developing the platform. They want a ready-made solution just delivered to them in a tricolour bow. If they want X capability, then they have to partner with said agency to develop that capability. This zero ownership attitude that Air HQ has is why local platforms never succeed (or reach their full potential) in the IAF.

All this excitement that Air HQ (and even the Air Chief) is giving on AMCA will be khayali pulao if they don't invest significantly in the Tejas Mk2. So a minimum of 200 aircraft plus all the associated weaponry, radars and sensors that go with it. The entire Tejas Mk2 ecosystem has to be invested in, for the AMCA ecosystem to even come into fruition and be viable. The Tejas Mk2 is the backbone on which the AMCA will fall back on. So little to no investment in the Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA's foundation will not exist.

So yes, the MRFA (basically more Rafales) will certainly bring in fewer birds for more money, while the reverse will be true with the Tejas Mk2. But two Rafale squadrons are just not going to cut it, if the IAF intends to maintain a high tempo of SEAD/DEAD missions. So additional Rafales are actually very necessary. The availability of funds is the short term (but very important) issue with the MRFA program. But commitment on the Tejas Mk2 is the long term (and more pressing) issue that needs to be addressed by the PMO.

And that commitment needs to be made TODAY, so the platform can become a reality in the high triple digits that it needs to be inducted in. This is why the PMO needs to step in. This is now an issue that goes beyond the Ministry of Defence or even the Defence Minister himself. Air HQ's vacillation over the Tejas Mk2 is not a strategy that the PMO can rely on. Like I said earlier....the IAF will lose 10 squadrons (MiG-29s, Jaguars and MiG-29s) over the next two decades. And there is already a 10 - 12 squadron shortage as of today. Therefore, sufficient room is there for the induction of imported and local aircraft. Heck, there is even room for additional Mk1A units.

Do the math :)
Prem Kumar wrote:But agree with you about the current RM. He is no Parikkar and I don't think he has the capacity to take this call. But Modi will get this easily. Understanding this issue is not rocket science. It can be explained in 10 powerpoint slides in 30 min.
We don't need to give Modi the PowerPoint presentation. He already knows this. It is Air HQ that needs to be given the order, on the path ahead.

So lets see.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

See this tweet below and this is from our own IR. This is why the Tejas Mk2 is so important. Read & parse every word carefully.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Finally, casual observers fail to see what Nag, Tejas etc. are. They are not a weapon. They are an entire industry going from smalls shops to full-fledged factories. Today, RCI/DRDL takes 3 years from project sanction to first flight of missile. This did not just happen.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

The ADA is stating that Mk2 will be ordered in more numbers once production begins along with a block 2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote: But since Air HQ will not buy in, the PMO needs to step in here. Give Air HQ what they want (114 MRFA i.e. basically Rafale). But the PMO should also categorically state that this 114 MRFA is directly tied into 200 Tejas Mk2s + additional Mk1As.
Good god, yes PMO should do this, right right away. But why is it not! :-?
Any idle capacity to make combat jets that is wasted is literally .......
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote: But since Air HQ will not buy in, the PMO needs to step in here. Give Air HQ what they want (114 MRFA i.e. basically Rafale). But the PMO should also categorically state that this 114 MRFA is directly tied into 200 Tejas Mk2s + additional Mk1As.
Good god, yes PMO should do this, right right away. But why is it not! :-?
Any idle capacity to make combat jets that is wasted is literally .......
What Rakesh has stated is indeed the "ideal solution". Challenge is there is no money to do this, i.e. a big ticket import and also run three local programs (Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF + jet engine) is the fundamental issue. Our needs are huge, and to keep the electoral mandate and avoid social disruption, whichever Govt is in power, has to spend taxes like H2O on every other thing, from roads, to afforestation, to power supply, new hospitals - you name it, we need it.

To add to Rakesh's point, IAF regards its primary role as war-fighting. All else is secondary. So they want the best platform to fight with, today, or at most tomorrow, and if they have to mortgage a "potential" future for a bird in the hand, ie MRFA, they will do it.

Don't think they are the only force which thinks on these lines. The IDFAF did the same with the Lavi. It's then Chief sacrificed the Lavi for the "proven F-16". He prioritized his force over the civilians and aerospace complex's pet program. Today, Israel continues to be wholly dependent on the US. This is also why the services cannot be the sole arbitrator for whether these programs need to exist, continue or not. There will be invariable trade offs and some end up costing the nation heavily in the long run.

Ergo, I think the way out is to add 2-3 more squadrons of Rafale to the line up, and that is it. Nothing thereafter, imports stop. Otherwise IAF will keep coming back with more proposals to continue the line - sir, MK2 V2 is delayed, AMCA v2 is delayed etc.

One fine day, the French will refuse to upgrade the Rafale, or ask astronomical costs, as they moved to a new platform, and then IAF will ask for an en-masse new import, which we will have to consider as trickle feed orders ensured AMCA etc went nowhere.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

VishnuS wrote:
ramana wrote:
fanne wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
I am quoting you guys as I don't know how to tag and get your attention to my post.

At times, I become Super Optimistic and I feel the below scenario can be consider as one such incident, please let me even if there is a remote possibility of this happening.

IAF really feels that they want MRFA and Tejas MK2 is not capable for future requirements. Henne they are not willing to commit! And want something certified by others!!

Now coming to Govt, I believe they are willing to play along, want to use IAF's request as carrot and get something in return??

As of today, there is no proper RFP from GOI, but only IAF's request and that is not formal one either. But apart from fighter we also see the discussion about Jet Engines. I am sure you and many of our forum members followed it with interest.

My guess is GOI wants to use IAF's informal request for more aircraft as a carrot for the Safran and France to give us what we need for the engine development. We had bad experience from the past related to engine development. This MRFA will act as a carrot for Safran and France to give us what we actually want. If my guess is right, then we will order another batch(36) of Rafale in 2024-25 that too based on the France's willingness to share the engine tech, with another carrot hanging for 2030's. We may also use F-18SH and get F414 MRO facility set up with the naval deal. F414 MRO might be the only reason we are waiting on F-18SH. F414 MRO purpose is to make sure that Safran is actually giving us the required tech and that too quickly, else they will know that another order of Rafales is not coming and the money with it. Moreover by the time all this happens we will be a far stronger economy than we are today, I am sure the our future economic weight is also taken into consideration by these countries when they are trying to sell their tech. 2025-26 is the timeline when HTFE is going to come online, our Jet engine core tech will also improve and HTFE will act as a base to improve our tech. All these are done to convince France and Safran to give us what we want at a decent price.

Please let me know where I had gone from distant possibility to pure fiction.

You deserve a reply.
One advice is always have one thought per post so there is clarity of thought.
Complex things should be broken into simple parts.


GOI want IAF to have indigenous planes to get autonomy.
IAf due to the nature of the service wants the best plane that money can buy. They don't care how you fund it.
Tejas MK2 is a good enough plane that can replace at least three types.
This will bring about synergy and bring down life cycle costs.
Usually, LCC is 3X the original hardware costs. And in India, the service life gets extended and is closer to 4x.

Next Mk2 and AMCA need new turbo-fans.
SAFRAN, RR, and even GE want to supply these with their own twist.
The bottom line it is at how much and not get out of here!

IOW is at the price negotiation stage.

Now all this could not have happened if Kaveri was an utter failure as its half-informed detractors like to gloat.
The three suppliers know that if India allocates half the price they are demanding to redo the Kaveri they are out of the market.
So all those long-suffering Nambis of GTRE also served by ensuring quite a decent engine core. Hats off to them.

The big takeaway is Mk2 will replace the majority of the fleet but there could be a case to augment with more capable planes to provide a katana. That's where the competition will be.
Unfortunately, you brought in IN requirement which is difficult due to self neutering by IN carrier honchos with hanger size.
By 2010 when the carrier structure was being built it was clear they need a larger hanger/lift. Yet they kept on trucking.
Mig29K were already known to be problematic.
They want another carrier!
Yes they need another carrier but because the first one will get old.
So prudence would launch another Vikrant class with a bigger lift and hangers to ensure the availability. That might add another 5000 tonnes of displacement. And when refit time comes to widen the Vikrant if feasible. Or make it an MH-60 carrier.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

Since when did Mk2 need a new engine - I thought it was being designed with F414-GE-INS6 as the engine. Is that not correct?
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