Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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NRao
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by NRao »

I think Prashant Bhadoria's twitter account is up and running
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

The Tejas Mk2 is through the CDR.
As is the AMCA Mk1.

Engine and power rating is defined for them.

The AMCA Mk2 engine is yet to be defined.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Sirji what I meant was that we are thinking of developing something bigger when we have not achieved competency in the basic Kaveri.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

The ship has sailed for Tejas MK2, with regards to a different engine. To a large extent, even for AMCA (unless we wish to delay the project by a couple of years)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

ks_sachin wrote:Sirji what I meant was that we are thinking of developing something bigger when we have not achieved competency in the basic Kaveri.
Yes, with French/RR joint development of new engine with unrestrained IP rights. Not doubt it will be done.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

ks_sachin wrote:Sirji what I meant was that we are thinking of developing something bigger when we have not achieved competency in the basic Kaveri.

Pls see this fm last page
Haridas wrote: Added later :

Tejas Mk2/MWF: metal cutting already done using F414.
Re-engined version could possibly require inlet and or CG/ subsystem provisioning to give birth to Mk2A.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Prem Kumar wrote:The ship has sailed for Tejas MK2, with regards to a different engine. To a large extent, even for AMCA (unless we wish to delay the project by a couple of years)
If the IAF follows the same pattern with the AMCA Mk2. Then we might just be looking at a radically different aircraft. Under the same program banner.

But then the IAF will have to be force fed several additional squadrons of the AMCA Mk1. In order handle the delays in the AMCA Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

This is all too confusing for my feeble mind!!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Barath »

ldev wrote:The engine for the Mk2 should have at the outset been an outsized engine capable of supporting future growth in power hungry systems, besides providing higher payload capacity and better thrust to weight resulting in faster acceleration. .
The GE 414 has room for further growth. See GE 414 EPE/EDE. In fact, the selection of GE 414 for AMCA Mk1, I believe might add an extra layer of risk reduction for AMCA Mk2. Besides which the selection of a different engine / higher thrust engine often comes with trade offs. eg Higher weight, higher cost, higher specific fuel consumption/ lesser range, different frontal area (drag, effort to recalculate all the aerodynamics etc)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

Make In India sanction proof turbojet, is the underline fundamental framework of Indian military aviation, that is emerging reality.
Last edited by Haridas on 18 Aug 2022 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Haridas wrote:Make In India saction proof turbojet, is the underline fundamental framework of Indian military aviation, that is emerging reality.
Let's hope that it comes true in the near future.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ldev »

Barath wrote:The GE 414 has room for further growth. See GE 414 EPE/EDE. In fact, the selection of GE 414 for AMCA Mk1, I believe might add an extra layer of risk reduction for AMCA Mk2. Besides which the selection of a different engine / higher thrust engine often comes with trade offs. eg Higher weight, higher cost, higher specific fuel consumption/ lesser range, different frontal area (drag, effort to recalculate all the aerodynamics etc)
With the increasing sophistication of China's IADS range will not be a pre-requisite for the Mk2 IMO because I doubt that the IAF will want to do any deep penetration missions into China. In any event using essentially an engine with F-16 Block 60/72 thrust levels but with a lower MTOW should enable a similar combat radius i.e. 800-900 km without refueling, longer ranges possible with external/conformal fuel tanks. But that higher powered engine will future proof the need for additional power generation for what will become at least IMO the need for the IAF i.e. a sophisticated IRST system probably pod mounted to enable IR tracking of PLAAF 5th generation fighters which will become more prolific in the years ahead. Such systems will enable 4th gen IAF fighters to be competitive with LO PLAAF fighters without a wholesale need to recapitalize the budget constrained IAF fleet. And the short term re-design pains IMO are well worth the trade off considering the future long term benefits.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Swapping out engines are very expensive affairs. For a military-budget averse country like India, it becomes even more acute. And for a service that views local maal with suspect (I am being diplomatic :) ), upsetting the apple cart like swapping out a turbofan is not an ideal thing. That will just further delay the program and open the door for even more imports.

The Jaguar Honeywell upgrade vacillated in the halls of the MoD and an engine upgrade for the Su-30MKI engine was never even considered. GE F414 will be the likely turbofan of choice for the service life of the Tejas Mk2. Any future uprating of the F414 turbofan could be applied to the examples in IAF service, if they choose to invest in that.

The IAF was in the loop when the F414 was considered over the EJ200. They are aware of the limitations (if any) of the growth potential in the F414 turbofan for the Tejas Mk2. Zeroing in on the F414 was not a decision made by ADA (or any other non-IAF stakeholder) alone.

Also read these interesting set of articles ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2561802#p2561802
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

I was happy to see a tender from HAL for the Tejas Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

Indranil wrote:I was happy to see a tender from HAL for the Tejas Mk2.
What's tender for Indranil ? What's current status of Mk2 if you can share.

(There had many false tall claims in Twitter/YouTube etc without source of information.)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

A quick search showed the tender for LCA Mk2 hanger dated 15th July 22, valued at 34.5 crs.

Not sure if this is what is being referred to.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

It's for bearings for the canards.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by la.khan »

One thing I have noticed with Tejas Mk1/1A/Mk2 is that no pictures get leaked. As in, as the birds are getting ready for their premiere. Does anyone recollect seeing pictures of Tejas Mk1 getting built, prior to the premiere of Tejas?

Somebody in HAL/ADA/IAF is running a tight ship. Must be due to a policy of no mobile/smart phones allowed into the assembly area. Not that I am complaining. Waiting with bated breadth to see Tejas Mk2 in flesh & blood :-)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Indranil wrote:It's for bearings for the canards.

This is exciting.

Thanks.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:It's for bearings for the canards.
Looking at the tender documents, few things stood out- delivery of first set is 32-34 weeks after placement of order. That's 8 months from October when they may place the order. Which implies that HAL will not have functioning canards on the Tejas Mk2 prototype till June-July 2023 at the very least. If a roll-out happens prior to that, it'll most likely be ceremonial, with the powering up of the fighter and ground tests that follow, to happen in the 3rd quarter of 2023 (Oct-Dec '23).

Can someone tell how many bearings are required for each Tejas Mk2 set of canards? I felt it was a set of 2 each of I/B and O/B on each side for a total of 4 on each Tejas Mk2. That may give an idea as to how many Tejas Mk2 fighters HAL is planning to produce each year, given that they're looking for 126 I/B and O/B bearings per year from 2026 till 2029 and 63 I/B and O/B bearings in 2030. And as per the stated plan, production starts from 2026 and ends in 2030!

To me it seems like HAL plans for 24 Tejas Mk2s from 2026 till 2029 and 12 in 2030 for a total of 108 which is 6 squadrons worth.

Good part is that this is a two bid process. First the bidder has to submit the technical bid and only if it is cleared, does the price bid even come up. Especially important in a fail-safe item like the bearings for the canards.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by suryag »

Kartik sir generally, again not very familiar with aviation sector, any designer tends to produce small volume proto bearings. My assumption is that HAL will do that and continue while the vendor becomes available.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nice reverse-engineering, Kartik!

Putting my paranoid hat on: why are these tenders (especially for critical defense items) made public? Non-critical public sector procurement must be made public for transparency. But why this? I wouldn't put it past our enemies to try & sabotage some upstream critical component whose supplier may not have as many safety protocols as say HAL. Its not always possible to check every component for QC (& even if done, it can be sabotaged post-QC). I feel, the less detailed info in public domain, the better
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SidSoma »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nice reverse-engineering, Kartik!

Putting my paranoid hat on: why are these tenders (especially for critical defense items) made public? Non-critical public sector procurement must be made public for transparency. But why this? I wouldn't put it past our enemies to try & sabotage some upstream critical component whose supplier may not have as many safety protocols as say HAL. Its not always possible to check every component for QC (& even if done, it can be sabotaged post-QC). I feel, the less detailed info in public domain, the better
This is the price of democracy. There is always a hue and cry that everyone must get a chance at bidding for a project. 2 Step tendering process has its own pitfalls. Many MSMEs cannot afford to keep building tech demos just to have a shot at fin bid. But more on that in some other thread.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by JTull »

SidSoma wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Nice reverse-engineering, Kartik!

Putting my paranoid hat on: why are these tenders (especially for critical defense items) made public? Non-critical public sector procurement must be made public for transparency. But why this? I wouldn't put it past our enemies to try & sabotage some upstream critical component whose supplier may not have as many safety protocols as say HAL. Its not always possible to check every component for QC (& even if done, it can be sabotaged post-QC). I feel, the less detailed info in public domain, the better
This is the price of democracy. There is always a hue and cry that everyone must get a chance at bidding for a project. 2 Step tendering process has its own pitfalls. Many MSMEs cannot afford to keep building tech demos just to have a shot at fin bid. But more on that in some other thread.
Disagree. This is ONLY because it is a govt company. No private company is required to go thru a public tendering process for their procurements.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

Tejas Mark 2 fighter to get cabinet sanction this week

Development of the Tejas Mark 2 fighter will cost Rs 10,000 crore, and is scheduled to be completed by 2030.

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 30th Aug 22

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/08/teja ... t.html?m=1
This week, a case is scheduled to be placed before the Union Cabinet, for the grant of financial sanction and permission to proceed with the design and development of the Tejas Mark 2 – a more capable version of the indigenous Tejas Mark 1 light combat aircraft (LCA).]

“The Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, will accord clearance this week for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to go ahead with the design, development, testing and certification of the Tejas Mark 2 fighter,” sources in the Ministry of Defence told Business Standard.

The new Tejas Mark 2 fighter is expected to be rolled out in a two-year timeframe, and its first flight will take another one year, say ADA officials. Then flight-testing and certification is expected to take another five years. That means the Tejas Mark 2 will only become operationally available around 2030.

It is estimated that the entire project, including the building of a small number of prototypes for flight testing, will require a budget of Rs 10,000 crore rupees.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

He says operational by 2030. We don't know if it means IOC, FOC or first squadron raising etc. 5 years from first flight to even say IOC, is quite good.

But if you compare the timelines to what HAL Chairman said in 2021, they are delayed by 2 years. He had said that the rollout would have happened in Aug - Sept 2022. That has moved by 2 years.

Not sure what the root cause is, other than the usual-suspect - Corona (but that doesn't wash, because he made this claim in Jan 2021, when we were smack in the middle of the pandemic. So, its not like he wouldn't be aware of possible delays).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VishnuS »

ashishvikas wrote:Tejas Mark 2 fighter to get cabinet sanction this week

Development of the Tejas Mark 2 fighter will cost Rs 10,000 crore, and is scheduled to be completed by 2030.

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 30th Aug 22

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/08/teja ... t.html?m=1
First flight is to happen in 2023, there is no IOC for Teja MK2. Previous estimate was 3 years for flight testing. By the time of 2027. MK1A production would have ended and streamlined MK2 production should start from 2028. So it is not that far off.

Since our PM is pushing Atmanirbhar Bharat I hope funding for MK2 goes without any hitches. But this also means GOI is not interested in MRFA. It would be interesting to watch how Dalals would react.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

Dear Rakshak’s
The confusion is that first prototype of mk2 is well on its way, based on residual fund left from mk1a funds. That is ready to roll out and may have rolled out by Aug.
The other fund is for more specimen, that will roll out per plan.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

The operational date of 2030 could well be psy ops by Ajai Shukla.

Most of the work needed to be done for Mk2 can be done by Mk1 as a surrogate. Given the lessons learnt by India with Tejas it's quite possible that the aircraft will enter service by 2028.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:The operational date of 2030 could well be psy ops by Ajai Shukla.
What is he trying to sell now?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

fanne wrote:Dear Rakshak’s
The confusion is that first prototype of mk2 is well on its way, based on residual fund left from mk1a funds. That is ready to roll out and may have rolled out by Aug.
The other fund is for more specimen, that will roll out per plan.
More likely - Ajai Shukla has sources in the MoD, but he didn't bother to check with ADA on their status. So, he's gone with whatever the source in the MoD or GoI told him about CCS sanction, and he's added 2+2 and filled in the rest. What he hasn't checked with ADA is about the status of the first prototype, and where it stands as of now.

It could also be that ADA and HAL have now gone slow on the Tejas Mk2 prototype construction to force the MoD and IAF to go to the CCS for cabinet sanction for the funds to be released. Tejas Mk1 (and not Mk1A which is an HAL project) FSED Phase 3 funds have been used thus far already for all the development done (which was enough to get the Tejas Mk2 past Critical Design Review and metal cutting to start), so my guess is that they're pretty much out of funds now.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by mody »

The current timeline given by HAL is that the production run of the MK1A will go on till 2029 for the 73 single seat fighters. The MK2 will only enter production from 2030 onwards.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The operational date of 2030 could well be psy ops by Ajai Shukla.
What is he trying to sell now?
Yet another American fighter :)

The delay in timeline is not of concern though. Just get the program going. That is the concern.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Must read twitter thread by our very own IR on the Tejas Mk2....click on the link below....

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... cbULrl1Ygg ---> I am going to reply to this tweet. @bheemm please don’t be offended. Nothing against you. Here “you/yours” refers to a 3rd person. This tweet just contains some often-repeated misconceptions which need to be clarified. My discussion today is going to be limited to fixed wings.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Ankit Desai »

Cabinet Committee on Security approves Tejas 2.0 mega project
Fly-by-wire, avionics, composites and other technologies have already been proven in Tejas Mark-1. The new project will upscale those into a bigger and more powerful fighter. IAF is likely to induct at least six squadrons (110-120) of Tejas Mark-2
As for Tejas Mark-2, DRDO and Aeronautical Development Agency aim to conduct its first flight in two to three years, with the production beginning by around 2030.
Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) cleared the project to develop Tejas Mark-2 with prototypes, flight testing and certification at a cost of over Rs 6,500 crore, in addition to the Rs 2,500 crore earlier sanctioned for it.
The CCS clearance for the over Rs 15,000 crore project to build the fifth-generation advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), with stealth features as well as 'supercruise' capabilities, in turn, "will follow within the next few months"
-Ankit
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VinodTK »

Thanks God allmighty; finally the day has come :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Great News. Lungi dance moment!!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral you r a master of deflection.

You have gone on the front foot and shrouded any talks of mithai with lungis!!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Manish_P »

VinodTK wrote:
Thanks God allmighty; finally the day has come :)
Ganpati Bappa Moraya :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SidSoma »

Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) cleared the project to develop Tejas Mark-2 with prototypes, flight testing and certification at a cost of over Rs 6,500 crore, in addition to the Rs 2,500 crore earlier sanctioned for it.
Any idea when this 2500 Cr was sanctioned and for what.
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