Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 04 Feb 2020 19:20


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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 04 Feb 2020 19:21

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 06081?s=20 ---->

1. ADA-HAL combo will begin the metal cutting for India's MWF in February 2021.

2. Long lead activities towards metal cutting (procurement of raw material) have commenced.

3. ADA confirms they were misquoted in some earlier reports in a section of media.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 05 Feb 2020 01:27

Excellent cockpit..given how good the MMI is supposedly on the Tejas, MWF will be a leap forward. Should be almost similar with the TEDBF/ORCA and help with the AMCA cockpit development as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 06 Feb 2020 19:10


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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2020 20:05

These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2020 20:16

Indranil wrote:These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!

We need to stop quoting and linking IDRW on BRF. One way to combat this issue.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 06 Feb 2020 21:44

Kartik wrote:Excellent cockpit..given how good the MMI is supposedly on the Tejas, MWF will be a leap forward. Should be almost similar with the TEDBF/ORCA and help with the AMCA cockpit development as well.


It is very impressive for sure ! I dont understand this space well - but to me incorporating a single LAD is orders of magnitude more difficult. I am not talking about hardware - i am talking about sensor fusion of all kinds of data in a single display. Thinking about it - how would they prioritize data coming from sensors , how would they overlay , what would take precedence , sensor fusion modes for different mission types and other such questions are coming to mind. If we can pull this off in the stated time frame then its very impressive !

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 06 Feb 2020 21:45

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1224622223975014401?s=20 ----> MWF 1:1 mock-up cockpit

Admiral - is this a working prototype ? As in like LCA sport ? Is there a video ?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 06 Feb 2020 21:52

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!

We need to stop quoting and linking IDRW on BRF. One way to combat this issue.


I propose blacklist on IDRW links like the haraam forums.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 06 Feb 2020 22:00

naird wrote:
Kartik wrote:Excellent cockpit..given how good the MMI is supposedly on the Tejas, MWF will be a leap forward. Should be almost similar with the TEDBF/ORCA and help with the AMCA cockpit development as well.


It is very impressive for sure ! I dont understand this space well - but to me incorporating a single LAD is orders of magnitude more difficult. I am not talking about hardware - i am talking about sensor fusion of all kinds of data in a single display. Thinking about it - how would they prioritize data coming from sensors , how would they overlay , what would take precedence , sensor fusion modes for different mission types and other such questions are coming to mind. If we can pull this off in the stated time frame then its very impressive !


Single screen but not single display. Its split in 2-4 user configurable sections. Practically like having more than one individual screens, but having LAD offers quite a bit.of flexibility to user plus overall more compact package HW wise. You can not put everything in a single display. Check out the SPORT video for a good demo.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 06 Feb 2020 22:03

JayS wrote:
naird wrote:
It is very impressive for sure ! I dont understand this space well - but to me incorporating a single LAD is orders of magnitude more difficult. I am not talking about hardware - i am talking about sensor fusion of all kinds of data in a single display. Thinking about it - how would they prioritize data coming from sensors , how would they overlay , what would take precedence , sensor fusion modes for different mission types and other such questions are coming to mind. If we can pull this off in the stated time frame then its very impressive !


Single screen but not single display. Its split in 2-4 user configurable sections. Practically like having more than one individual screens, but having LAD offers quite a bit.of flexibility to user plus overall more compact package HW wise. You can not put everything in a single display. Check out the SPORT video for a good demo.


Got it ! That makes sense. Thought it was single display. So we are talking about F35, Sport kind of display.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 06 Feb 2020 22:53

Interesting tidbit. Sorry, cant copy tweet text on my cellphone for some reason.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 87328?s=19 ---> There was a study done for Mark-1P (Mk-1 with 1 meter long Plug - same as original Mk-2 airframe) as a successor for Mk-1. It was shelved due to increase in drag & weight, with not very proportionate benefits.

No Mk-1B.
Last edited by Rakesh on 06 Feb 2020 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Done :)

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 06 Feb 2020 22:57

naird wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1224622223975014401?s=20 ----> MWF 1:1 mock-up cockpit

Admiral - is this a working prototype ? As in like LCA sport ? Is there a video ?

I am going to go with what Anantha says in his tweet. Mock Up, not a working prototype.

Gurus can enlighten more.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 06 Feb 2020 23:17

Indranil wrote:These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!


I am little concerned, now can the IAF/ADA still do changes or have to take permission from IDRW, since they have copyrighted it and warned with a strike?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Feb 2020 00:19

Indranil wrote:These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!


They're utterly shameless. :x Steal content from another journalist and then have to gall to pretend that its from "sources" and should not be copied by others!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2020 05:08

fanne wrote:
Indranil wrote:These guys are brazen. They just changed Tarmak's video interview to words and then said, "do not copy"!!!


I am little concerned, now can the IAF/ADA still do changes or have to take permission from IDRW, since they have copyrighted it and warned with a strike?

:rotfl:

Good one.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 07 Feb 2020 09:54

The Mk2 cockpit is a mockup. The basic 'optics' is final. Not sure about the HUD though. I don't think they made the deal with Thales.

There are multiple ways to handle LAD. Most of the panels have two independent LCD units etched into a single glass sheet. So, it will be two displays sharing the same glass, and with no pixel gap between them. L3Harris have a patented method of having pixel level redundancy in the panel. As usual, it is not L3 but L1 that wins (pun intended. For tubelights (waitaminit, that is the politician formerly known as pappu. soree onlee) L1 means the entity that offer the lowest price)

Behind the scenes, there are several computers generating the information. Some make video (radar, IRST, moving map etc). Some make symbols. All these go to one (or two if you have two logical LCD units) video processors that will layer all these and create one 'video' that is displayed on the screen. There are a number of high power CPUs, GPUs, several gigabytes of memory and teraflops of processing power that creates the magic.

There can be dozens of such sources supported by the display subsystem for a good sensor fusion. We are en route there onlee.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 07 Feb 2020 10:03

Rakesh wrote:
naird wrote:Admiral - is this a working prototype ? As in like LCA sport ? Is there a video ?

I am going to go with what Anantha says in his tweet. Mock Up, not a working prototype.

Gurus can enlighten more.

Its a very very basic 'simulator'. You can takeoff, fly and land but thats it. just for the show i think. the full sim is at blr.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2020 10:24

Dileep wrote:The Mk2 cockpit is a mockup. The basic 'optics' is final. Not sure about the HUD though. I don't think they made the deal with Thales.

I would be sad if it is a Thales HUD. I thought CSIO was developing this.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 07 Feb 2020 10:43

The current thin hud is imported. But CSIO is working on it. LAD i was told is indian.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2020 12:53

JayS wrote:Interesting tidbit. Sorry, cant copy tweet text on my cellphone for some reason.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 87328?s=19 ---> There was a study done for Mark-1P (Mk-1 with 1 meter long Plug - same as original Mk-2 airframe) as a successor for Mk-1. It was shelved due to increase in drag & weight, with not very proportionate benefits.

No Mk-1B.


Here's the proof that HAL doesn't have any capabilities to design fastjet aerodynamics. ORCA is just a fan art albeit a HAL fan.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 07 Feb 2020 14:07

The HUD is BAE kit. Probably common with the Hawk program.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 07 Feb 2020 14:43

My bad. What is shown on the mock-up is BAe LiteHUD. CSIO is working on one, but nothing is final as of now.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 07 Feb 2020 15:13


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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 07 Feb 2020 16:40

So not having a proper fighter test bed is hitting our programs. Uttam and Kaveri, two critical projects.

If only HAL had thought about having a Su30 test bed a while back.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2020 17:16

nam wrote:So not having a proper fighter test bed is hitting our programs. Uttam and Kaveri, two critical projects.

If only HAL had thought about having a Su30 test bed a while back.


There are LCA PVs and LSPs that are being used as testbeds but it seems HAL is prioritising MK1A modifications on them.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Zynda » 07 Feb 2020 19:26

ADA has just hired a boat load of Project Engineers to work on Tejas Mk.2...all the signs that DDP has sanctioned & work is underway.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 07 Feb 2020 23:14

Zynda wrote:ADA has just hired a boat load of Project Engineers to work on Tejas Mk.2...all the signs that DDP has sanctioned & work is underway.


It has been sanctioned in 2009 itself. DRDO asked for 800Cr additional fund for FSED-3 in 2018. We don't know what happened to it.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Zynda » 07 Feb 2020 23:28

JayS, I meant Detailed Design Phase of Mk.2 has been sanctioned. I believe the initial amount seeded back in 2009 would be for platform (configuration) & capability studies. If DRDO had requested funds in 2018, then it would have been "approved" recently onlee and this aligns with recent uptick in hiring activity. According to Abduls who will be going there, the advertisement for this came around mid-2019. Officially, massive hiring can happen onlee when it is tied to a project...

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Feb 2020 02:46

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Feb 2020 02:53

For MWF
Empty weight 7850kg
Takeoff clean weight 11300kg.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2020 03:13

6500 kg external stores? :shock: As a comparison, the Mirage-2000 is lower at 6300kg. And even the Su-30 can carry only 1500 kg more!

Plus they have managed to cram in 1 more hardpoint than even the Gripen-E (2 more than the M2k and just 1 less than the Su-30!). Plus the dual pylon on the under-wing hp.

An excellent, excellent replacement for the M2k and Mig-29 eventually. That is six squadrons right there.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2020 04:29

in February 2019, I had written this post, after trying to get an estimate of what the Tejas Mk2 MWF empty weight would be. The Empty Weight target figure now revealed at DefExpo 2020 is very close to the most conservative figure I had estimated back then, which was 7754 kgs. But then we heard that 7,000 kgs would be the empty weight and it seemed too low to be possible, given various reasons.

So we now know that the MWF's TARGET Empty Weight is 7850 kgs.

Yes, it would seem that 7,000 kg is the target empty weight if they intend to carry full fuel load AND full payload at the same time. It's very ambitious- my prediction was in the 7400 kg range, but this 7,000 kg figure needs to be validated by someone at ADA. JayS, can you please try to get some info on the target empty weight?

7,000 would be a full 1,000 kg lighter than the Gripen E's empty weight of 8,000 kgs.

While a lot of learning can be applied from the Mk1 on what structures' weight can be reduced, only increasing the empty weight of the MWF Tejas Mk2 by 350 kgs over the Mk1, while strengthening the wing to take the additional payload, adding new internal fuel tanks and new canard surfaces seems to be a very difficult task.

I would be very happy if they managed to attain ~7400-7500 kg empty weight. That would still allow the MWF to take off with 6500 kg of weapons payload and not full internal fuel, and then refuel in mid-air. Anyway, 90% of the MWF's missions will be with take off weight lower than MTOW.


Thank goodness we're getting a realistic figure, not some completely unrealistic number as was done with the LCA originally. back in the early 1990s, it was mentioned that LCA would weigh 5500 kgs, which was ridiculous given the amount of fuel and payload it could carry. That haunted the LCA program later, as it was criticized for being "overweight" despite the fact that it was within a few dozen kgs of the Gripen C and JF-17 and FA-50. People like Prodyut Das (and I hated him for it) would constantly harp on it being overweight, despite it's empty weight being almost the same as the Gripen C, JF-17 and FA-50.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 08 Feb 2020 05:14

:shock: close to 3400 kgs fuel.... friggin awesome..

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2020 05:19

Page 1 updated with all the new specs

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 08 Feb 2020 05:19

Now if they can do 3000 kgs In CFTs, will be more long ranged then MKI... 3500 kgs for a long range strategic mission is plenty good..

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2020 05:20

sankum wrote:For MWF
Empty weight 7850kg
Takeoff clean weight 11300kg.

Did you take this picture or is this from a website?

Reason I am asking is because I added this picture in the first page and need to give credit. Kindly advise.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Feb 2020 09:29

sankum wrote:For MWF
Empty weight 7850kg
Takeoff clean weight 11300kg.

That does not sound impressive in terms of TWR. At all.
Most mrca birds for example, including the ancient solah will manage 1.0 for sure. Only the gripen will struggle.

Another excuse for the iaf to say no and then find firang filly. MRCA 1.0 = Today's MRCA 2.0 = tomorrow's MRCA ad nauseum..

IMVHO MWF should be TEDBF No excuses then.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Feb 2020 09:32

. Rakesh wrote

Did you take this picture or is this from a website?

Reason I am asking is because I added this picture in the first page and need to give credit. Kindly advise.



Thanks shobhits for the picture. Sorry I was in sleep, He is the first to put in on net .Others will now lap it up as it is not watermarked.
Last edited by sankum on 08 Feb 2020 11:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Feb 2020 09:37

IAF is okay with empty weight at 7.5T according to Sjha and the tender for MWF tyres at HAL website gave MTOW at 18.2T. Thus a margin of 700 Kg is there.


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