I did not not point it out because the LEVCons are used currently in the same manner. But, there is something wrong in that diagram or that flap is really oddly shaped. Are they going to have a flap which stands up like a spoiler at the LE?JayS wrote:new NLCA MK2 has Vortex flaps. I am surprised to see no one has pointed it our so far.Austin wrote:N Tejas had MLG and Tail Hook but they had levcons
Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
While Levcons are used at 30deg angle, vortex flap will be kept at much higher angle, may be even 90deg just like a spoiler. But spoilers are perpendicular to airflow, these will be along LE. Cant say with surety about final config for landing as of now. We dont have sufficient info.Indranil wrote:I did not not point it out because the LEVCons are used currently in the same manner. But, there is something wrong in that diagram or that flap is really oddly shaped. Are they going to have a flap which stands up like a spoiler at the LE?JayS wrote: new NLCA MK2 has Vortex flaps. I am surprised to see no one has pointed it our so far.
When I was looking for Levcon in literature like 4yrs ago, I hit a lot of papers on Vortex flaps. Functionally Levcons in Landing config of 30deg up are same as vortex flaps. But Levcons can be used as LE slats as well with downward deflection.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Saw the video. But it doesn't say its NP5. Just like 1 sec video in there. Could be old also.ashishvikas wrote:Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.
Source: DFI.
As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!
@Rakesh,JayS,IR can confirm.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
NP5 is trainer version of Mk1
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Jay,
And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.
And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Indranil and JayS,
Pls you both seem to be having a parallel conversation.
For mango men and women please do share your aerodynamic callisthenics.
Regards
S
Pls you both seem to be having a parallel conversation.
For mango men and women please do share your aerodynamic callisthenics.
Regards
S
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Sachin sahab,
Explaining this in detail will only involve more jargon
I will try sometime later when I have a little time on hand.
Till then please bear with us.
Explaining this in detail will only involve more jargon
I will try sometime later when I have a little time on hand.
Till then please bear with us.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Indeed IR thanks.
I am reading up and will try to post my explanation of your interaction.
Let's see where my aerodynamics.
I think I know what diagram you are referring to.
I am reading up and will try to post my explanation of your interaction.
Let's see where my aerodynamics.
I think I know what diagram you are referring to.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Wing is extended now. Equations change. But I need to revise through old material go get my thoughts aligned once more on this. There's been too much going on these days and I am not able to do anything else but put my ears to news all the time on whats happening on the border.Indranil wrote:Jay,
And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
IR and Jays,
Stabilators with a delta wing.
Any precedence
Stabilators with a delta wing.
Any precedence
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Are there enough aerodynamic refinements that they don't need whatever assistance the flap provides at TO.JayS wrote:Wing is extended now. Equations change. But I need to revise through old material go get my thoughts aligned once more on this. There's been too much going on these days and I am not able to do anything else but put my ears to news all the time on whats happening on the border.Indranil wrote:Jay,
And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.
And prefer all the assistance at landing.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.
Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.
Just curious.
I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.
Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.
Just curious.
I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Please check above conversation. NP5 is under fabrication and is a trainer version of Mk1 but incorporating several changes as learnt from previous 2 prototypes.Khalsa wrote:In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.
Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.
Just curious.
I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Thank you saar. I jumped straight into the Question mode after feasting on the picture gallery in tejas mk1 and mk2 threads.JTull wrote:Please check above conversation. NP5 is under fabrication and is a trainer version of Mk1 but incorporating several changes as learnt from previous 2 prototypes.Khalsa wrote:In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.
Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.
Just curious.
I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.
Sir with regards to NP3 and NP4 then. If i remember correctly one of the NPs was made into an air force trainer (LSP or PV series right)
What about the second NP before NP5.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Two line summary of facts:
Both NP1 and NP2 are derived from LCA Trainer. The rear cockpit has been used for avionics. In NP2 the canopy has been greyed out.
NP3 and NP4 will be Mk2 prototypes. One newsletter out of AI-19 had an interview with ADA Director, where it was stated that a prototype of LCA Navy Mk2 is already under fabrication which should be completed in 18 months.
Both NP1 and NP2 are derived from LCA Trainer. The rear cockpit has been used for avionics. In NP2 the canopy has been greyed out.
NP3 and NP4 will be Mk2 prototypes. One newsletter out of AI-19 had an interview with ADA Director, where it was stated that a prototype of LCA Navy Mk2 is already under fabrication which should be completed in 18 months.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
The Mig-21 has them. Although it's wing is much smaller proportionally to its size than the Tejas.ks_sachin wrote:IR and Jays,
Stabilators with a delta wing.
Any precedence
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Yes: F-5, A-4, Su-9, Su-15 immediately spring to mind. If you take cropped delta, then the list is much longer.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Hadn't seen this image of the LCA Navy Mk2 from Aero India 2019 previously.
Last edited by Kartik on 17 Apr 2019 02:03, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Kartik, you have linked an image from deaf and dumb forum and it no longer exists.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Yes and couldn't find the original from Trishul blog either. Have posted it from another hosting site. Open in a new browser to see it in full size. CFD images give a good idea of what it will really look like. Such a pity that there is very little info on this extremely interesting LCA variant.
Indranil, JayS, please do us all a favour and try to get as wonderful an article as you both wrote for the Tejas and the MWF Mk2 for DDR, for the LCA Navy Mk2.
Such a beauty!
Indranil, JayS, please do us all a favour and try to get as wonderful an article as you both wrote for the Tejas and the MWF Mk2 for DDR, for the LCA Navy Mk2.
Such a beauty!
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...
https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.
https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
So 1 LCA produced by HAL in 19-20 . Is the 8 MK1 order for the Navty on? Or has LCA NP1 flying since 2012?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Wow! I have been giving my panwallas a hard time about this. This is great. Carrier landing is imminent.MeshaVishwas wrote:And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...
https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
NP1 was the first LCA Navy Mk1 prototype, derived from the LCA AF Mk1 twin seater design. It has now been integrated with the arrestor hook that was earlier present only on NP2 the single seat LCA Navy Mk1 prototype. We now have both LCA Navy Mk1 prototypes integrated with the arrestor hook.Aditya_V wrote:So 1 LCA produced by HAL in 19-20 . Is the 8 MK1 order for the Navty on? Or has LCA NP1 flying since 2012?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Do we have plans for any carrier capable trainers (like Goshawk), mk1 should fit the bill perfectly.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
That Naval Tejas is just gorgeous.MeshaVishwas wrote:And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...
https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.
See Admiral Arun Prakash's comment, in response to the tweet above....
https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/11 ... 3395149824 ---> Impressive - especially the underwing R-73. Kota Harinarayana will be pleased to see his initials on the fin!
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
^^
This is the common denominator for all Naval Officers : They back indigenous development 100%.
I can only imagine how high the Josh is for R&D people or others in a Navy led project.
Need this to spread.
Sha No Varuna.
This is the common denominator for all Naval Officers : They back indigenous development 100%.
I can only imagine how high the Josh is for R&D people or others in a Navy led project.
Need this to spread.
Sha No Varuna.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I initially thought it was pilot controlled like flaps. Went for some chai and found out that it is FC controlled like the slats! This is one step further than what I had thought after seeing the caption of the pic.JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Highly unlikely that designers will give switch to activate/deactivate LEVCON, when NLCA could not land on deck without LEVCON. Why create additional point of possible failure..?sudhan wrote:Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
'Indranil wrote:I initially thought it was pilot controlled like flaps. Went for some chai and found out that it is FC controlled like the slats! This is one step further than what I had thought after seeing the caption of the pic.JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.
Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?
My chaiwalla information was wrong. He himself cleaned the kattha and provided me the right zarda. The Levcons are activated by pilot input based on "schedules". The take off is on hands free mode though.
They are giving the control to the pilot for now. They want to figure out what works progressively. And incorporate it into the FC. As confidence builds, the LEVCON Will be FC actuated.JayS wrote:Highly unlikely that designers will give switch to activate/deactivate LEVCON, when NLCA could not land on deck without LEVCON. Why create additional point of possible failure..?sudhan wrote:
Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Thanks Indranil and your panwalas and chaiwallas.
My estimate for Naval LCA mk2 is 8T empty weight , 3.8T internal fuel 500kg more than MWF for a clean take off weight of 12.5T and a payload of 4.5 T for MTOW of 17T.
Can you get it confirmed. I am doubtful for Stobar 17 T MTOW is possible with 10T thrust engine.
My estimate for Naval LCA mk2 is 8T empty weight , 3.8T internal fuel 500kg more than MWF for a clean take off weight of 12.5T and a payload of 4.5 T for MTOW of 17T.
Can you get it confirmed. I am doubtful for Stobar 17 T MTOW is possible with 10T thrust engine.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
That would be awesome if it carries more internal fuel!
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
I am worried about it too. But on second thoughts, The TWR of Rafale M at MTOW is 0.61. The TWR of the LCA Navy Mk2 is 0.59. And LCA NAvy has huge wings. In fact, is wing area is nearly the same as the Rafale!sankum wrote:Thanks Indranil and your panwalas and chaiwallas.
My estimate for Naval LCA mk2 is 8T empty weight , 3.8T internal fuel 500kg more than MWF for a clean take off weight of 12.5T and a payload of 4.5 T for MTOW of 17T.
Can you get it confirmed. I am doubtful for Stobar 17 T MTOW is possible with 10T thrust engine.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
^ We don’t know capabilities of Rafale M operating from STOBAR Dassault has been very tight lipped about it ( quite a contrast to Boeing which has boasting F-18 capabilities operating from ski jump) ; Either they really have no idea or its payload capability is quite limited. So Rafale comparison might not be appropriate since we don't really know what it's capable of either.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Boeing has access to a lot more data for M&S work when it comes to ski jump performance courtesy US NAVAIR. Dassault would need to tread more carefully and do a lot more analysis to derive to something that it can promise before someone formally asks for flight demonstrations.
https://imgur.com/gallery/dyqMg2y
https://imgur.com/gallery/dyqMg2y
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Apr 2019 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Well, here's F18 data.
TWR: 0.65. Wing area: 46.5 m^2 to NLCA Mkk2's 44 m^2.
Actually F-18 C/D to F/18 E/F conversion should allay some of our fears. The F-18 went in the same progression of engine change F404 to F414. It's weight gain from C/D to E/F was 40% in empty weight, 37% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW. Compared to this LCA's weight gains from Mk1 and Mk2 are 23% in empty weight, 15% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW.
TWR: 0.65. Wing area: 46.5 m^2 to NLCA Mkk2's 44 m^2.
Actually F-18 C/D to F/18 E/F conversion should allay some of our fears. The F-18 went in the same progression of engine change F404 to F414. It's weight gain from C/D to E/F was 40% in empty weight, 37% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW. Compared to this LCA's weight gains from Mk1 and Mk2 are 23% in empty weight, 15% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW.
Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019
Navy Tejas from AI 2015.