Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 03 Mar 2019 10:57

JayS wrote:
Austin wrote:N Tejas had MLG and Tail Hook but they had levcons

new NLCA MK2 has Vortex flaps. :wink: I am surprised to see no one has pointed it our so far.

I did not not point it out because the LEVCons are used currently in the same manner. But, there is something wrong in that diagram or that flap is really oddly shaped. Are they going to have a flap which stands up like a spoiler at the LE?

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 03 Mar 2019 12:13

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:new NLCA MK2 has Vortex flaps. :wink: I am surprised to see no one has pointed it our so far.

I did not not point it out because the LEVCons are used currently in the same manner. But, there is something wrong in that diagram or that flap is really oddly shaped. Are they going to have a flap which stands up like a spoiler at the LE?


While Levcons are used at 30deg angle, vortex flap will be kept at much higher angle, may be even 90deg just like a spoiler. But spoilers are perpendicular to airflow, these will be along LE. Cant say with surety about final config for landing as of now. We dont have sufficient info.

When I was looking for Levcon in literature like 4yrs ago, I hit a lot of papers on Vortex flaps. Functionally Levcons in Landing config of 30deg up are same as vortex flaps. But Levcons can be used as LE slats as well with downward deflection.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 03 Mar 2019 20:39

ashishvikas wrote:Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.

Source: DFI.

Image

As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!
@Rakesh,JayS,IR can confirm.


Saw the video. But it doesn't say its NP5. Just like 1 sec video in there. Could be old also.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 04 Mar 2019 00:40

NP5 is trainer version of Mk1

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 04 Mar 2019 03:33

Jay,

And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Mar 2019 04:10

Indranil and JayS,

Pls you both seem to be having a parallel conversation.

For mango men and women please do share your aerodynamic callisthenics.

Regards

S

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 04 Mar 2019 09:36

Sachin sahab,

Explaining this in detail will only involve more jargon :wink:

I will try sometime later when I have a little time on hand.

Till then please bear with us.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Mar 2019 11:42

Indeed IR thanks.
I am reading up and will try to post my explanation of your interaction.
Let's see where my aerodynamics.
I think I know what diagram you are referring to.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 04 Mar 2019 18:22

Indranil wrote:Jay,

And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.


Wing is extended now. Equations change. But I need to revise through old material go get my thoughts aligned once more on this. There's been too much going on these days and I am not able to do anything else but put my ears to news all the time on whats happening on the border.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Mar 2019 13:15

IR and Jays,
Stabilators with a delta wing.
Any precedence

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Mar 2019 13:19

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:Jay,

And that is why I find the flap “odd”. If it were to be hinged at the TE, it could have acted as a slat at TO, and as a vortex flap at landing. In this arrangement, they have completely foregone the first use. There must be a good reason. I just want to know why.


Wing is extended now. Equations change. But I need to revise through old material go get my thoughts aligned once more on this. There's been too much going on these days and I am not able to do anything else but put my ears to news all the time on whats happening on the border.

Are there enough aerodynamic refinements that they don't need whatever assistance the flap provides at TO.
And prefer all the assistance at landing.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 13 Mar 2019 14:36

In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.

Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.

Just curious.

I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2019 14:47

Khalsa wrote:In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.

Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.

Just curious.

I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.


Please check above conversation. NP5 is under fabrication and is a trainer version of Mk1 but incorporating several changes as learnt from previous 2 prototypes.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 13 Mar 2019 14:58

JTull wrote:
Khalsa wrote:In light of second wave of photos and info coming from AI_19.

Does the Navy have any planning to go past the 2 X Mk1s flying for them ?
Both are the Prototypes. Any plans to go to LSP for say even four of them to iron out any testing, concepts, process building.
Anything.

Just curious.

I have some questions for Mk2/ navy which I will ask later on.


Please check above conversation. NP5 is under fabrication and is a trainer version of Mk1 but incorporating several changes as learnt from previous 2 prototypes.


Thank you saar. I jumped straight into the Question mode after feasting on the picture gallery in tejas mk1 and mk2 threads.
Sir with regards to NP3 and NP4 then. If i remember correctly one of the NPs was made into an air force trainer (LSP or PV series right)
What about the second NP before NP5.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 13 Mar 2019 23:43

Two line summary of facts:

Both NP1 and NP2 are derived from LCA Trainer. The rear cockpit has been used for avionics. In NP2 the canopy has been greyed out.

NP3 and NP4 will be Mk2 prototypes. One newsletter out of AI-19 had an interview with ADA Director, where it was stated that a prototype of LCA Navy Mk2 is already under fabrication which should be completed in 18 months.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 15 Mar 2019 00:54

ks_sachin wrote:IR and Jays,
Stabilators with a delta wing.
Any precedence

The Mig-21 has them. Although it's wing is much smaller proportionally to its size than the Tejas.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 15 Mar 2019 09:56

Yes: F-5, A-4, Su-9, Su-15 immediately spring to mind. If you take cropped delta, then the list is much longer.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 17 Apr 2019 00:20

Hadn't seen this image of the LCA Navy Mk2 from Aero India 2019 previously.

Image
Last edited by Kartik on 17 Apr 2019 02:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 17 Apr 2019 01:10

Kartik, you have linked an image from deaf and dumb forum and it no longer exists.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 17 Apr 2019 02:09

Yes and couldn't find the original from Trishul blog either. Have posted it from another hosting site. Open in a new browser to see it in full size. CFD images give a good idea of what it will really look like. Such a pity that there is very little info on this extremely interesting LCA variant.

Indranil, JayS, please do us all a favour and try to get as wonderful an article as you both wrote for the Tejas and the MWF Mk2 for DDR, for the LCA Navy Mk2.

Such a beauty!

Image

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby MeshaVishwas » 24 Apr 2019 21:49

And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.

Image

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Apr 2019 22:59

So 1 LCA produced by HAL in 19-20 . Is the 8 MK1 order for the Navty on? Or has LCA NP1 flying since 2012?

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2019 00:43

MeshaVishwas wrote:And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.

Wow! I have been giving my panwallas a hard time about this. This is great. Carrier landing is imminent.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 25 Apr 2019 02:24

Aditya_V wrote:So 1 LCA produced by HAL in 19-20 . Is the 8 MK1 order for the Navty on? Or has LCA NP1 flying since 2012?


NP1 was the first LCA Navy Mk1 prototype, derived from the LCA AF Mk1 twin seater design. It has now been integrated with the arrestor hook that was earlier present only on NP2 the single seat LCA Navy Mk1 prototype. We now have both LCA Navy Mk1 prototypes integrated with the arrestor hook.

Image

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 25 Apr 2019 10:41

Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.

Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 25 Apr 2019 11:03

Do we have plans for any carrier capable trainers (like Goshawk), mk1 should fit the bill perfectly.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sudhan » 25 Apr 2019 15:40

JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.

Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?


Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 25 Apr 2019 17:53

MeshaVishwas wrote:And a great ending to a rather ordinary day...

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0340781057 ---> What a beauty! LCA Navy's trainer variant NP-1 flew for the first time today in Bengaluru in near complete “Standard of Preparation” with arrestor hook and a pilot controlled “Leading Edge Vortex Controller LEVCON”. Heads to SBTF Goa for further trials.

That Naval Tejas is just gorgeous.

See Admiral Arun Prakash's comment, in response to the tweet above....

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/11 ... 3395149824 ---> Impressive - especially the underwing R-73. Kota Harinarayana will be pleased to see his initials on the fin!

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby MeshaVishwas » 25 Apr 2019 18:20

^^
This is the common denominator for all Naval Officers : They back indigenous development 100%.
I can only imagine how high the Josh is for R&D people or others in a Navy led project.
Need this to spread.
Sha No Varuna.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2019 19:21

JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.

Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?

I initially thought it was pilot controlled like flaps. Went for some chai and found out that it is FC controlled like the slats! This is one step further than what I had thought after seeing the caption of the pic.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 26 Apr 2019 23:21

sudhan wrote:
JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.

Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?


Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?


Highly unlikely that designers will give switch to activate/deactivate LEVCON, when NLCA could not land on deck without LEVCON. Why create additional point of possible failure..?


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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 28 Apr 2019 05:19

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:Was fortunate to see the beauty while landing.

Did you guys noticed "Pilot controlled LEVCON"..? Does that mean its integrated with the FCS as a fully active control surface..?

I initially thought it was pilot controlled like flaps. Went for some chai and found out that it is FC controlled like the slats! This is one step further than what I had thought after seeing the caption of the pic.
'
My chaiwalla information was wrong. He himself cleaned the kattha and provided me the right zarda. The Levcons are activated by pilot input based on "schedules". The take off is on hands free mode though.

JayS wrote:
sudhan wrote:
Maybe the pilot can activate and deactivate the usage of the LEVCON? (To support T/O landings?) Else it remains flush with the wing?


Highly unlikely that designers will give switch to activate/deactivate LEVCON, when NLCA could not land on deck without LEVCON. Why create additional point of possible failure..?

They are giving the control to the pilot for now. They want to figure out what works progressively. And incorporate it into the FC. As confidence builds, the LEVCON Will be FC actuated.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 28 Apr 2019 05:59

Thanks Indranil and your panwalas and chaiwallas.
My estimate for Naval LCA mk2 is 8T empty weight , 3.8T internal fuel 500kg more than MWF for a clean take off weight of 12.5T and a payload of 4.5 T for MTOW of 17T.
Can you get it confirmed. I am doubtful for Stobar 17 T MTOW is possible with 10T thrust engine.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 28 Apr 2019 06:42

That would be awesome if it carries more internal fuel!

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 28 Apr 2019 12:31

sankum wrote:Thanks Indranil and your panwalas and chaiwallas.
My estimate for Naval LCA mk2 is 8T empty weight , 3.8T internal fuel 500kg more than MWF for a clean take off weight of 12.5T and a payload of 4.5 T for MTOW of 17T.
Can you get it confirmed. I am doubtful for Stobar 17 T MTOW is possible with 10T thrust engine.

I am worried about it too. But on second thoughts, The TWR of Rafale M at MTOW is 0.61. The TWR of the LCA Navy Mk2 is 0.59. And LCA NAvy has huge wings. In fact, is wing area is nearly the same as the Rafale!

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby John » 28 Apr 2019 19:14

^ We don’t know capabilities of Rafale M operating from STOBAR Dassault has been very tight lipped about it ( quite a contrast to Boeing which has boasting F-18 capabilities operating from ski jump) ; Either they really have no idea or its payload capability is quite limited. So Rafale comparison might not be appropriate since we don't really know what it's capable of either.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 28 Apr 2019 21:06

Boeing has access to a lot more data for M&S work when it comes to ski jump performance courtesy US NAVAIR. Dassault would need to tread more carefully and do a lot more analysis to derive to something that it can promise before someone formally asks for flight demonstrations.

https://imgur.com/gallery/dyqMg2y
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 28 Apr 2019 21:14

Well, here's F18 data.

TWR: 0.65. Wing area: 46.5 m^2 to NLCA Mkk2's 44 m^2.

Actually F-18 C/D to F/18 E/F conversion should allay some of our fears. The F-18 went in the same progression of engine change F404 to F414. It's weight gain from C/D to E/F was 40% in empty weight, 37% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW. Compared to this LCA's weight gains from Mk1 and Mk2 are 23% in empty weight, 15% in CTOW and 25% in MTOW.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rishi_Tri » 07 May 2019 23:16

Navy Tejas from AI 2015.

Image


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