Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashbhee » 11 Mar 2019 00:18

Rakesh wrote:
ashbhee wrote:Where can I find a running count on how many Tejas has been inducted?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7691

Click on the above link and scroll down :)


Rakesh Ji,

I did see that and I was little confused. What does this mean?
>Line 2 ... SP-13 ... LA-5013... 30-Jan-19 ... Group Captain Kolal Krishnamurthy Venugopal (Retd)
> Line 1 ... SP-14 ... LA-5014... 18-Jan-19 ... Group Captain Kolal Krishnamurthy Venugopal (Retd)

Does this mean 2 aircrafts were test flown or delivered to IAF?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 11 Mar 2019 00:27

This records first flight only, not deliveries. (Added later: please note the Retd status of the pilot. He's a Test Pilot with HAL). Aircraft are accepted for delivery by in-service pilots and ferry flights to airbase are operational matter.
Last edited by JTull on 11 Mar 2019 01:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 11 Mar 2019 01:26

In addition to what JTull said, I count first flights as inducted into the squadron. The reason being there is not much time that is elapsed since first flight to eventual squadron acceptance. Also, a successful first flight means the aircraft is flown and thus that particular airframe will be ready soon for induction. The accurate number of aircraft with No 45 Sqn is not known and neither is that desired. As JTull said, that is an operational matter and does not concern us jingos.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2019 01:29

Yeah, lets not gild the lily. If an aircraft is not accepted or needs to be reworked, media will report it and we can make a note. Good stuff Rakesh, please continue as is.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 11 Mar 2019 03:24

Karan M wrote:Of course, we also have the D-29 program on the verge of approval from the IAF (and reports IAF is very pleased with it).


This is news! What's the basis for the optimism? As per reports in Dec, it was a dead end. Mig-29 platforms with required modifications were never provided to install D-29. Also, it was determined that it's not feasible to install this on Tejas.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2019 05:53

JTull wrote:This is news! What's the basis for the optimism? As per reports in Dec, it was a dead end. Mig-29 platforms with required modifications were never provided to install D-29.


The CAG reports referred to a situation several years back, where the required aircraft were still getting modified in Russia & hence unavailable in India. Thereafter, it was installed and has been in trials for past few years.
Anyhow, wont post on it currently given the current scenario, but its come good.

Also, it was determined that it's not feasible to install this on Tejas.


Never meant for the Tejas, as name suggests its D-29 specifically designed for what the MiG-29 can accommodate and field.
It does however belong to a common family of EW suites, the first of which was meant for the Tejas but cannot be fitted internally because of the lack of space. Expect a podded version to be developed for the LCAs in future, if IAF doesnt just order more EL/L-8222 instead. Right now, there are some 3 airborne EW suites in process, so the lack of the LCA suite does not hamper Indian EW efforts or ecosystem build up. Plus there is the MWF, and then the AMCA etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2019 05:59

This is a perfect example of how incompetent "journalists" tend to promote outdated and rubbish information. So Sushant Singh (the same gent who plagia.. err.. inspired himself from Jagan PVS BR article on Jaffna ops) writes this:

Strike Force: The challenges in IAF’s upgrade roadmap
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... n-5618654/

A senior IAF officer, a test pilot who has flown Tejas’s early prototypes, said, “The LCA doesn’t meet our expectations. It needs to be escorted by more capable aircraft to come alive.”


Shocking, horrific.. wait, what? We have the VCAS on record praising the aircraft in August 2018. The CAS at Aero India pleased as punch from Feb 2019. So where did this quote come from? Is it dated?

Not surprisingly, recycled from November 2017 and before.
https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... w-4946876/

An IAF test pilot, who has flown the Tejas’s early prototypes and who is currently a senior decisionmaker at Air Headquarters, said: “The LCA doesn’t meet our expectations. It needs to be escorted by more capable aircraft to come back alive.”


....then goes on to compare the LCA with medium weight fighters, dodgy figures there as well and concludes they aren't the same.

So.. with this kind of journalism, is it any wonder that our defense reportage and ability to maintain any sort of deterrence is so woefully shallow?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby shaun » 11 Mar 2019 07:15

The article link posted above is utter nonsense. The words and sentences , as if coming from 5th grader. The guy need to be tagged and watched.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2019 10:52

Senior journalist, author etc. etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kashi » 11 Mar 2019 10:59

He even goes on to regurgitate the the rubbish about "we needed 2 Sukhois for 1 F-16." Wonder if he spotted the irony in his statement that we had only 4 Sukhois vectored in and the other side had pressed in at least 8 F-16s. Apparently, facts and mathematics are not a strong suite on this one.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2019 11:12

Exactly. Some cock & bull story garnished with claims galore. Guy is writing as a defence journo but doesn't mention:
1. Su-30s do have BVR of their own, R-77 & R-27
2. Will get Astra as well & which has completed developmental trials, with user involvement which MOD has said will be inducted
3. What if F-16s use their multi-target capability and fire 4 missiles at 4 different Su-30s, so will we need 8 then? 4 Su-30s to avoid the missiles, 4 Su-30s to fire at the F-16s, which then require double the F-16s.. this juggling will give anyone a headache.
4. What of the Su-30s EW, countermeasures etc. Not important.

And he'll be cited as an expert source by the new infestation of dilli billi yuppies doing "strategic studies" in khanland and giving gyan on the topic to all and sundry! Such is reality.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby jaysimha » 11 Mar 2019 12:47

Final Operational Clearance of LCA Tejas MK I for Indian Air Force and many more
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsle ... mar_19.pdf


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sahay » 11 Mar 2019 19:23

Government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will deliver 16 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in the final operational clearance (FOC) configuration to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by the end of this year, said HAL chairman R. Madhavan.

Why make a promise that is clearly impossible to deliver on? HAL reached a capacity of 8 aircraft/yr after much trouble, and we are supposed to believe that they'll deliver 16 in 9 months? Hopefully this is just bad reporting and HAL is not going around claiming that it'll almost triple its production capacity in 9 months.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2019 19:36

Easy to criticize, its takes 3 years from Order to aircraft, so they have many aircraft on jigs right now to state they can deliver 16 aircraft. There are things like learning curves.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sahay » 11 Mar 2019 19:46

There is no reason to believe that the second line had already come up 2-3 years ago or that it'll deliver its full capacity from the get-go. Practically, it is not in HAL's interest to deliver 16 aircraft by this year as it'll mean a break in production till 2021 as trainer SoP won't be finalized till then. The contract for Mk 1A has also not been signed, and with a 3 year lead time, its production can't start until 2022.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nash » 11 Mar 2019 19:59

As per current order book, HAL left with 24 Tejas MkI and if they deliver 8/year then by 2022 they will complete this order and if they get order of 83 Tejas-MkIA then by 2022 HAL will be ready to start with it and there will be no breakdown of production or any idle year(s).
So,unless IAF order 40 more MkI i see no valid reason of HAL to increase the production to 16/year.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2019 22:45

sahay wrote:
Government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will deliver 16 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in the final operational clearance (FOC) configuration to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by the end of this year, said HAL chairman R. Madhavan.

Why make a promise that is clearly impossible to deliver on? HAL reached a capacity of 8 aircraft/yr after much trouble, and we are supposed to believe that they'll deliver 16 in 9 months? Hopefully this is just bad reporting and HAL is not going around claiming that it'll almost triple its production capacity in 9 months.


Year end is March 2020. Not December 2019. They have been scaling up their production and should have the second assembly line ready so that the numbers can reach 16 per year. By 2023, they are targeting upto 24 per year, so it is a gradual build up, not something that's happening in just 9 months.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2019 22:50

Apparently this was the Tejas Mk1A model displayed at Aero India 2019

Image

I see a chine that seems to begin right after the radome and extends till the stub wing join. Now is it possible that some such change is planned or is it just a poorly built model and no such change is planned?

Perhaps Indranil could confirm with his sources.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Raman » 11 Mar 2019 23:53

I think it is just different paint colors and not a chine. There's no chance of a change in the outer mold line between Mk1 and Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2019 23:58

sahay wrote:There is no reason to believe that the second line had already come up 2-3 years ago or that it'll deliver its full capacity from the get-go. Practically, it is not in HAL's interest to deliver 16 aircraft by this year as it'll mean a break in production till 2021 as trainer SoP won't be finalized till then. The contract for Mk 1A has also not been signed, and with a 3 year lead time, its production can't start until 2022.


Who says that the Trainer SOP won't be finalized till 2021? They'll finalize it this year itself, and HAL will have it in production after the 16 FOC single seaters are completed. Nevertheless, the full production capacity won't be utilized, as there are only 8 trainers on order, whereas the production line will be at 16 per year capacity. Hopefully, the IAF will make use of that capacity and not let it lie idle or underutilized.

In the meantime, the Mk1A metal cutting should have already begun or should start soon, given that it is mostly similar to the Mk1. Long lead items' orders should have been placed by HAL, even though the IAF has dilly-dallied and not placed the contract as yet. The last thing we need is a break in production for the Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2019 23:59

Raman wrote:I think it is just different paint colors and not a chine. There's no chance of a change in the outer mold line between Mk1 and Mk1A.


Different paint colors would not show up that way. In fact, the two tone scheme on the Mk1 seems to have been dropped (dark grey top, lighter grey underside) to have a single tone grey camouflage on the Mk1A model.

There is a clear chine in the model. Now, whether that is as per intent or just poor model making, we'll only know when someone confirms with official sources.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 12 Mar 2019 00:02

By the way, did anyone confirm at Aero India 2019 as to whether there was any weight reduction planned for the Mk1A?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 01:04

I have not heard any chatter on the chine. But that is definitely a chine. It is exactly where it should be. Long long time back I had drawn an LCA Mk3 which also sported a chine at exactly the same place.

Image

It should help with directional stability. It will have a similar effect as the nose chine studies that we referenced in our article. I am hazarding a guess here. But I think, they will be able to clear the fighter for 26 degree AoA (test articles have to be flown to 28 degrees for that). HAL has the opportunity to embrace all the changes that would increase transonic/supersonic performance. They can slightly reshape the canopy to decrease the shock there. The changes to the rear fuselage will be identical to the studies ADA did (referenced in our write up). Use the reshaped pylons, new intake contours and letterbox auxiliary intakes. Finally, the 1320 ltr fuel tanks. Even without any weight reductions, we are speaking of a fighter which is +8.5/-3.5 G capable, 1.7M capable, with good transonic/supersonic performance, state-of-art avionics and cockpit, and an unrefueled ferry range of 2400 kms. That's a serious swing-role fighter!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sahay » 12 Mar 2019 01:13

Kartik wrote:Year end is March 2020. Not December 2019. They have been scaling up their production and should have the second assembly line ready so that the numbers can reach 16 per year. By 2023, they are targeting upto 24 per year, so it is a gradual build up, not something that's happening in just 9 months.

Even if you take the year end as March 2020, that is still a doubling of capacity without any ramp up. It'll definitely mean a break in production if 16 FOC fighters are delivered by March 2020. Since the first trainer isn't expected by 2021, it'd mean 16 aircraft delivered between 2019-20, 0 in 2020-21 and 8 trainers in 2021-22. Only after that can Mk 1A deliveries start considering a 3 year lead time. How exactly is this realistic compared to keeping it at 8/yr till Mk 1A production starts?

Kartik wrote:Who says that the Trainer SOP won't be finalized till 2021?

I misspoke, I meant that the first trainer won't be out till 2021 due to a delay in SoP finalization.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 01:19

Does anybody have more pictures of the Mk1A model from AI'19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 12 Mar 2019 01:23

That is a very super-hornet looking version you've drawn there. Twin-tail on a small single-engined bird? :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 01:41

Very rough sketch. :D But why is the twin tail forbidden on the single-engined bird?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby adarshp » 12 Mar 2019 03:12

sahay wrote:
Kartik wrote:Year end is March 2020. Not December 2019. They have been scaling up their production and should have the second assembly line ready so that the numbers can reach 16 per year. By 2023, they are targeting upto 24 per year, so it is a gradual build up, not something that's happening in just 9 months.

Even if you take the year end as March 2020, that is still a doubling of capacity without any ramp up. It'll definitely mean a break in production if 16 FOC fighters are delivered by March 2020. Since the first trainer isn't expected by 2021, it'd mean 16 aircraft delivered between 2019-20, 0 in 2020-21 and 8 trainers in 2021-22. Only after that can Mk 1A deliveries start considering a 3 year lead time. How exactly is this realistic compared to keeping it at 8/yr till Mk 1A production starts?

Kartik wrote:Who says that the Trainer SOP won't be finalized till 2021?

I misspoke, I meant that the first trainer won't be out till 2021 due to a delay in SoP finalization.


I would expect trainer delivery to start right after FOC delivery. I expect that Mk 1A will not be ready for production when delivery of FOC Mk1's complete. I however remember reading somewhere that there are some 12 or 16 FOC Mk1 trainers even in the order of 83 Mk 1A's. Therefore I expect all FOC Mk1 trainers to be built together. Realistically we should expect ~40 aircraft 16 FOC Mk 1 fighters and 24 FOC Mk1 trainers to be delivered from April 2019 to March 2022. Around this time I expect that Mk 1A deliveries would start. Big if is whether delivery of trainers can begin around 18 months from now and Mk 1A can be ready in time to start deliveries from April 2022.

If the above timelines are met then remainder 67 Mk1A aircraft @ 16 per year will take 4.25 years to deliver, i.e. April 2022 to June 2026, from when Mk2 delivery shpuld start, ~7.5 years from now. Eminently possible all around I would like to believe

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2019 03:56

Indranil wrote:Even without any weight reductions, we are speaking of a fighter which is +8.5/-3.5 G capable, 1.7M capable, with good transonic/supersonic performance, state-of-art avionics and cockpit, and an unrefueled ferry range of 2400 kms. That's a serious swing-role fighter!

Will they eventually convert the 40 Mk1s to the Mk1A standard?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 04:34

They should. Or as near to Mk1A as possible.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Gagan » 12 Mar 2019 06:51

Twin tail will be smaller, slimmer, a bit like in the F-35

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 12 Mar 2019 13:03

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:Even without any weight reductions, we are speaking of a fighter which is +8.5/-3.5 G capable, 1.7M capable, with good transonic/supersonic performance, state-of-art avionics and cockpit, and an unrefueled ferry range of 2400 kms. That's a serious swing-role fighter!

Will they eventually convert the 40 Mk1s to the Mk1A standard?



I hope they don't sir and please hear me out.

By the time its time to convert them into Mk1As we will be pressed for time to get the Mk2s going, Naval Mk2 will be in demand as well.
HAL will be in thinking mode for AMCA.
Jags and Mirages will be aging fast.
We should take the Su-30K route. Keep them as tranche 1 / Mk1 and get on with the future.

Mk2 will become the ideal fighter for Indian Air Force in the light medium category.
It should be the main focus going forward till AMCA becomes our rafale.

By the way saar, congrats on posting ACM tipnis article. Sheer pleasure to read and you can real get essence of his points around maintenance and serviceability. I look forward to our Tejas stable doing the same.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby mody » 12 Mar 2019 14:12

There are total of 18 trainers on order. All will be as per Mk1 FoC standard. The production of trainers will start after the 16 FoC planes. The production for 73 MK1A planes will start after the production for the trainers is over.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Mar 2019 14:28

From 2009 I think there is LCA NAVy order of 6 or 8 aircraft which also needs to be fulfilled.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 23:44

Navy has directed those funds towards development.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Mar 2019 23:45

Khalsa ji, they won't change things out right now. The Mk1s will comeback for MLUs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SaiK » 13 Mar 2019 01:30

^^^^^Indranil sahib, longtime back I heard Mk3 will happen as a test bed for stealth.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 13 Mar 2019 01:39

No sahib please. LCA will be used to test out stealth concepts (other than shaping) like flush sensors, RAM coatings etc. Ghatak will be used to test out stealth concepts related to shaping. At the moment, there is no plan for LCA Mk3

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SaiK » 13 Mar 2019 01:46

makes sense, as now the priorities are Mk1a and Mk2.


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