Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Mar 2019 08:09

NSitharamanOffice @nsitharamanoffc 21h21 hours ago
https://twitter.com/nsitharamanoffc/sta ... 2684473344
Securing and indigenising India's Air Defence. LCA Tejas will soon fly in the Indian skies.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 25 Mar 2019 08:23

Tejas readies for three-way dog-fight in Malaysia with Pakistani and Korean fighters

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/03 ... t.html?m=1

In contrast, the Tejas and the FA-50 Golden Eagle both use the highly reliable General Electric F-404 engine, which also powers the RMAF’s F/A-18s. Further, the Tejas incorporates a significant amount of Israeli avionics, which also feature in the RMAF Sukhoi-30MKMs. These factors would reduce the life-cycle cost of the Tejas.

I believe F18 is powered by F414..but its same family of engine. Few members had raised issues with Tejas's Israeli equipment - then u have it on their Sun30s.

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Mar 2019 09:54

^It is a 2-way now. JF-17 is a no-show at langakawi.

I had pointed it out as much that JF-17 will be a no show when Lima-2019 was announced in this thread.

And a whole load of BS from Shookla

The Tejas’s big drawback is the IAF’s reluctance to back it. In contrast, the JF-17 and FA-50 are strongly backed by the Pakistani and Korean air forces respectively. The PAF already flies six squadrons of JF-17s.

“It would be a travesty if the Malaysian air force likes the Tejas, but decides against it because it sees IAF reluctance to back the fighter. The sooner the IAF throws its weight behind the Tejas, the earlier it will crack the international market, where there is already drawing significant interest,” says strategic affairs expert, Bharat Karnad.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Mar 2019 12:21

Just realized, China has three offerings in the LIFT/LA category: FTC 2000G, JF-17B and the HongDu L15. Only one responded: JF-17B, and did not show up!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 25 Mar 2019 12:29

Maybe because neither of those are as mature as the JF-17

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Mar 2019 13:05

What if Malaysia buys the Tejas and use it in air exercises with Pakistan/ China?
Later on ?

jandash00 · Post by **jandash00** » 25 Mar 2019 13:10

Hi Sirs...This is my first post...

Just a small observation - the LCA Pilots in LIMA'19 seem to be flying without the HMDS Helmets...whereas in BIAL they were flying with HMDS . Is the HMDS not a part of the operational squadron yet???

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Mar 2019 13:15

jandash00 wrote:Hi Sirs...This is my first post...

Just a small observation - the LCA Pilots in LIMA'19 seem to be flying without the HMDS Helmets...whereas in BIAL they were flying with HMDS . Is the HMDS not a part of the operational squadron yet???

The Aircraft taking part in LIMA are LSP planes not from the 45 Squadron.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Mar 2019 13:16

No sir they are from the squadron LA-2009

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Mar 2019 13:20

Aditya_V wrote:
jandash00 wrote:Hi Sirs...This is my first post...

Just a small observation - the LCA Pilots in LIMA'19 seem to be flying without the HMDS Helmets...whereas in BIAL they were flying with HMDS . Is the HMDS not a part of the operational squadron yet???
The Aircraft taking part in LIMA are LSP planes not from the 45 Squadron.

SP-9 and SP-10 are in LIMA19

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Mar 2019 13:21

I stand corrected then I am sorry, should have checked- shows IAF confidence

https://zeenews.india.com/india/2-iaf-t ... 89523.html

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Mar 2019 13:28

On the subject of Indian versus Korean fighter, Malaysian air force knows it's Indian counterpart well. It knows IAFs exacting standards about equipment and it's training. They already have tie ups to receive parts for their Su-30MKM and Mig-29s. This will be the easiest aircraft for them to operationalise. LCA Tejas also has the most elaborate upgrade path out of all contenders.

I'd advise GoI to create a FMS type program where Malaysians can buy at GOI rates but then have to sign separate maintenance, customisation contracts. Money will be in customisation to qualify new armaments, and potentially new radar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Mar 2019 13:33

Plus some weapons like R-73 , Paveway-LGB, etc must already be in Malaysian Air force inventory, only thing is US clearance for GE 404 and weaponry, Russian clearance for R-73 and Isreali clearance of Radar and weaponry and Malaysian acceptance of all these while we are still close allies of Singapore. Even the Korean TA 50 will require a lot of clearances from USA.

Wonder how practical such an export will be though?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Mar 2019 14:23

What could be the reason for a slight "flattening" of the Tejas canopy compared to the initial versions?

SP-4

Quite visible here

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 25 Mar 2019 14:47

HAL - Verified account

@HALHQBLR - HAL has produced 16th LCA of IOC Contract as per the target till March 31, 2019. The customer flights are expected soon. @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @SpokespersonMoD @gopalsutar

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 25 Mar 2019 14:47

Shekhar Singh · Post by **Shekhar Singh** » 25 Mar 2019 15:59

Kashi wrote:What could be the reason for a slight "flattening" of the Tejas canopy compared to the initial versions?

Bow shaped canopy to reduce drag. EF also has same.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 25 Mar 2019 17:36

kit wrote:What if Malaysia buys the Tejas and use it in air exercises with Pakistan/ China?
Later on ?

We aren't producing enough for our own needs. We can't resell the engine either. So a Tejas purchase by Malaysia is only a thought experiment at this point in time; however the exercise/dogfights will really help benchmark the efforts of our scientists, test pilots and workers, and a good grade in this exercise will hopefully light up ambition in our nascent MIC, including in government and quasi-government organizations.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Mar 2019 17:44

yensoy wrote:
kit wrote:What if Malaysia buys the Tejas and use it in air exercises with Pakistan/ China?
Later on ?
We aren't producing enough for our own needs. We can't resell the engine either. So a Tejas purchase by Malaysia is only a thought experiment at this point in time; however the exercise/dogfights will really help benchmark the efforts of our scientists, test pilots and workers, and a good grade in this exercise will hopefully light up ambition in our nascent MIC, including in government and quasi-government organizations.

Not quite! HAL isn't investing enough in expanding capacity because it doesn't have the orders. More orders means per unit price comes down. It is giving small piecemeal orders to it's suppliers. Get a commitment of 20 more will allow it to invest in capacity while Mk1 comes online. So will L&T, Tatas and other suppliers invest in their own capacity. HAL can also get better pricing from all - domestic and international - suppliers.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Mar 2019 18:25

Looking at this video 2 things can be noticed

1. LCA Tejas takes 19-20 seconds to complete a horizontal circle- 25-26 seconds for JF-17 both clean configs

2. LCA Tejas like Su30, F-16, M-2000 is able to complete vertical loops which the JF-17 never completes and aborts.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Mar 2019 18:35

So, basically as we always suspected, the JF-17 is a POS that the Pakis are buying because they have no other option, and it is just a tier 2 bomb truck with ok-ok weapons and avionics, which itself makes it far superior to their creaky Mirage 3/5/F-7s.

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Mar 2019 18:50

I always wondered how difficult is LCA to spot if it is bit far/high !

Second, the low speed handling. The camera hand moves faster than the jet!

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Mar 2019 18:59

Regarding the Malaysian deal, if they are okay with the Israeli kit on LCA, we would also have to consider the fact that it might be going up against Singapore, our true ally in the region!

It does not look good to arm an ally's adversary, nor will it look in case F15SG shoot down a LCA in future!

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Mar 2019 18:59

Khan style photoshoot..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Mar 2019 19:04

This is IAF showing how good the LCA really is , to get customers with American engine, Flir and LGB, Israeli Radar plus weaponry and Russian CCM, I guess GSH 23 can now be considered our own in addition to our Desi weapons will not be easy, we will need a whole load of clearances.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 25 Mar 2019 22:03

Fit n Finish is getting better with each machines.. as well as HAL assembly floor also looking better.

Rishi_Tri wrote:HAL - Verified account

@HALHQBLR - HAL has produced 16th LCA of IOC Contract as per the target till March 31, 2019. The customer flights are expected soon. @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @SpokespersonMoD @gopalsutar

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Mar 2019 22:05

Frankly I am bored of this airshow routine now. Team LCA should come up with a new one now. And try to keep it mixing a bit. We need more aggressive marketing for LCA from HAL. Otherwise its not gonna go anywhere. At the lower side of the capability spectrum (e.g. trainer cum fighter) political considerations can easily outweigh aircraft capabilities. Personally I don't think LCA has much of chance due to factors other than its own capabilities, but its nonetheless a good marketing practice for HAL for coming future.

BTW if someone is interested to know status, total 13 jets have been handed over already, till SP13. SP14 is under user acceptance trials, SP15 has just flown and in under flight evaluations, SP16 has some minor issues. I think all may be handed over by March end officially for financial year ending matters, but unofficially the handover may extend a bit, but should be finished by April end anyhow, in my opinion. Its imminent, a week or two here and there doesn't really matter. And no one should have any real issue with it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Mar 2019 22:18

Exactly. I am not a fan of LCA or Akash or Brahmos being sold outside India. OK with this only because of creating a positive buzz about Indian prowess in general.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 25 Mar 2019 23:04

Agreed, until we have a coherent and comprehensive military-industrial strategy in place, and until we are of the heft where we don't need to be so careful in making alliances, it's best to not harbour thoughts of exporting our latest and greatest to any foreign country. Let's also understand that once a Brahmos is in Vietnamese or Taiwanese hands, it's a given that the Chinese will get access to it (yes, China has a strong cadre of fifth columnists in said places); likewise a Tejas with Malaysia means that Pakis will have their day with it.

We can and should export non-top tier items including patrol vessels, corvettes/frigates, land vehicles of various categories, small arms/ammunition, communication and basic EW equipment, satellites and launch capabilities, imagery with resolution/delay/access limits, logistics and maintenance services, training, medical services and such.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Mar 2019 00:13

Karan M wrote:So, basically as we always suspected, the JF-17 is a POS that the Pakis are buying because they have no other option, and it is just a tier 2 bomb truck with ok-ok weapons and avionics, which itself makes it far superior to their creaky Mirage 3/5/F-7s.

I suspect that the only reason it does better than the mirage 3 is because there were no real bvr upgrade packages for the latter. If the Frenchies or Israelis had done a proper mod including an hms and bvr, that would totally show up the bandar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 00:25

yensoy wrote:Agreed, until we have a coherent and comprehensive military-industrial strategy in place, and until we are of the heft where we don't need to be so careful in making alliances, it's best to not harbour thoughts of exporting our latest and greatest to any foreign country. Let's also understand that once a Brahmos is in Vietnamese or Taiwanese hands, it's a given that the Chinese will get access to it (yes, China has a strong cadre of fifth columnists in said places); likewise a Tejas with Malaysia means that Pakis will have their day with it.

We can and should export non-top tier items including patrol vessels, corvettes/frigates, land vehicles of various categories, small arms/ammunition, communication and basic EW equipment, satellites and launch capabilities, imagery with resolution/delay/access limits, logistics and maintenance services, training, medical services and such.

Agree completely.
Naval/Land platforms with either 3rd party kit, or items specifically developed for export by pvt firms on their own budget should be fine. We should just draw the line at anything top tier with electronics capability carefully guarded.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 00:28

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:So, basically as we always suspected, the JF-17 is a POS that the Pakis are buying because they have no other option, and it is just a tier 2 bomb truck with ok-ok weapons and avionics, which itself makes it far superior to their creaky Mirage 3/5/F-7s.
I suspect that the only reason it does better than the mirage 3 is because there were no real bvr upgrade packages for the latter. If the Frenchies or Israelis had done a proper mod including an hms and bvr, that would totally show up the bandar.

Yep.. but that apart, i think the basic thing is the Mirage 3's are literally falling apart. Pakistan has next to none own engineering capabilities for instance to replace engine components, rotables, or even structural items. They have christmas treed Mirages purchased from Lebanon, Australia etc per memory and must be carefully overhauling and re-lifing whatever they can't swap out from the other airframes. That strategy is a disaster from the long term flight-safety point of view and even from the short term, combat ops sustainment angle. They would barely be able to sustain a few weeks before their stuff just starts giving way.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Mar 2019 00:49

Yes and that's where the bandar gives them some relief. I guess they'll be begging the Chinese for j10s in short order.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 26 Mar 2019 01:21

nam wrote:Regarding the Malaysian deal, if they are okay with the Israeli kit on LCA, we would also have to consider the fact that it might be going up against Singapore, our true ally in the region!

It does not look good to arm an ally's adversary, nor will it look in case F15SG shoot down a LCA in future!

Is this the same Malaysia that refused to extradite Zakir Naik to India ? Why are we even entertaining this at the official levels?

-M

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 26 Mar 2019 01:31

We should sell stuff to Malaysia. Many reasons:

* Yes they did not extradite people. Do you think they will still refuse to extradite if half their AF is our planes? I say we export them to Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand and UAE as well. We should also have joint training. Do not think about what they did in the past, see how we can make sure they cannot escape our embrace in the future.

* Sure cheenis/Pakis might get their hands on our maal. Ensure it is an export version. In any case AFs get intelligence about planes through exercises, hacking, OSINT, other OEMs whose parts get integrated with ours. cheenis and Pakis already probably know everything about Mig 21, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 30. All of our mainstays. Probably even Mirage 2000. It is operated by Egypt, UAE, Qatar

* The deal with export orders is that, they generate money. Which then goes into R&D. Take French AF for example, I will not be surprised if Rafale development was entirely funded through profits from Mirage 2000. Sell Tejas. Take the money, make MWF, Sell that. Take that money and make AMCA. This is pretty much the route that Unkil/France/Russies take.

Recall that SU-30 was a rust bucket, till IAF funded its development. Probably the same thing happened for Mig 29. Definitely happened for T-90.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 26 Mar 2019 02:13

The prospect of selling isn't the issue. The issue is that of sellability.
- HAL past exports
- HAL ADA silos
- Infinite DDM reporting
- Replacing Israeli stuff + certification for ~12+24 planes
- Diplomatic influence with Malaysia
- Some of the FOC concessions
- Similar planes on offer with greater acceptance and previous export sales to establish credibility.

Thus the chances of bagging this export order is very very slim despite being the most capable. Domestic potential of Tejas is much more than enough for sustaining the desi MIC for the next 15+ years atleast. Exports might give some publicity nothing else. Time to perfect the desi MIC first before proposing to sell big ticket stuff. Consider the Tejas to be the ASLV. Need to get PSLV(mk2) rolling and perfected over time and then run after GSLV(AMCA).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Mar 2019 03:43

jandash00 wrote:Hi Sirs...This is my first post...

Just a small observation - the LCA Pilots in LIMA'19 seem to be flying without the HMDS Helmets...whereas in BIAL they were flying with HMDS . Is the HMDS not a part of the operational squadron yet???

and a good observation on your part! It does indeed appear that line pilots of No.45 Squadron are still using their older helmets and not the DASH HMDS that NFTC pilots were using on the LSPs.

If anyone can find a picture of any SP series fighter where the pilot is wearing a DASH HMDS, please post it here.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Mar 2019 03:56

Kartik wrote:If anyone can find a picture of any SP series fighter where the pilot is wearing a DASH HMDS, please post it here.

I believe the DASH helmets have only been seen during HAL test flights. IAF may have ordered them separately and waiting on delivery perhaps.

Here are the SP-12 and SP-13 during their respective first flights. Pilot appreas to be wearing DASH helmet in both cases

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Mar 2019 09:03

Ananth Krishnan writes another informational piece of LCA. Read in full at the site, lots more info.

Tejas flies on L&T wings as HAL completes production of last IOC fighter

...
And most signicantly, it (SP-16; SP stands for Series Production) ew
on the wings made by Larson & Tourbo (L&T). This is a major step in
HAL’s efforts to outsource Tejas parts to the private industries, in line
with the Make in India mandate.
Engineers in HAL familiar with the Tejas Mk1 production conrmed to
Onmanorma that the L&T wings came to LCA Division in January this
year.

“The full structure (both left and right wings) came from L&T and our
teams completed the wiring and pipeline work within two months. This
is a signicant development in Tejas production,” an ofcial said. Tejas
SP-16 rst ew on March 11 while SP-15 on March 22.

...
The front fuselage of SP-21 is in the advance stages with the mid-air
refuelling probe requirement installed on it. The central fuselage too is
in an advance stage and all the three fuselages are expected to be ready
by end of April this year.
HAL now says SP-21 will roll out by the end of this year. The entire 16
FOC ghters will be delivered to IAF during 2019-2021 –
...
For the record, HAL delivered one Tejas in 2015-16; two in 2016-17;
five in 2017-18 aircraft and eight in 2018-19 (subject to acceptance of
last four ghters).
...
HAL says the build-standard of eight FOC trainers should be ready by
next month. The rst FOC trainer is expected to y out towards the end
of 2021.
...

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 26 Mar 2019 09:04

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ghter.html

HAL now says SP-21 will roll out by the end of this year. The entire 16 FOC fighters will be delivered to IAF during 2019-2021 – which again accounts for eight aircraft per year

the figure of 16 will remain elusive.