Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 00:57

Check out the build quality!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Apr 2019 02:07

Karan M wrote:I favor Majorly Profound for strategic analysis. Best one the sub continent ever produced. Majorly strategic.

True. Too bad he is not active on Twitter anymore.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 20:32

A video which captures the max rate turns at Lima very well.

The 22-23 second 360 turns appear to be faster than what the F-18 demonstrated in the same conditions.

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 05 Apr 2019 21:53

Noob question...
How much development is done or remaining for Mk1A? By when the first test flight will be flown?

I was listening to RS tv debate and the experts there were very critical of the HAL and doubted whether things would move with reasonable pace. Hence the question.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 05 Apr 2019 22:26

^^ As per aero india, estimated development time 3 years post signing of the contract. The optimistic timeline is 2022. Don't know if they will create a new LSP / modify an existing LSP.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 23:28

Bharadwaj wrote:A video which captures the max rate turns at Lima very well.

The 22-23 second 360 turns appear to be faster than what the F-18 demonstrated in the same conditions.

This seems more like 20-21 seconds 360 degree turn

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:41

gaurav.p wrote:^^ As per aero india, estimated development time 3 years post signing of the contract. The optimistic timeline is 2022. Don't know if they will create a new LSP / modify an existing LSP.

Modify an existing LSP to the Mk1A standard. No major structural changes involved, so it shouldn't require a dedicated new build.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:44

Aditya_V wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:A video which captures the max rate turns at Lima very well.

The 22-23 second 360 turns appear to be faster than what the F-18 demonstrated in the same conditions.
This seems more like 20-21 seconds 360 degree turn

Indeed. The max rate turn begins at 0:33 and it ends up at the same spot at 0:54, for a full 360 degree turn. That is 21 seconds for 360 degrees.
Works out to 17.14 degrees per second Sustained Turn Rate.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 05 Apr 2019 23:58

Took this image from a gripen fanboy blog. Is this legit?
If yes then approx where is mk1 and what is envisioned in mk2?

https://exoatmospheric.files.wordpress. ... ssu-35.jpg

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:59

Its BS. Big time. Gripen's STR is 29 deg/s? lol. What a load of BS!

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 06 Apr 2019 00:08

Noted saar

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Apr 2019 00:14

Another way to look at it what G's get generated for this kind of STR (of course one has to know few things, was the turn accelerated/unaccelerated in the horizontal plane, what was the radius of turn). Does not make sense, G will be very high. Unless it was placed on a huge turntable and that rotated at 30 deg a second, it is possible then

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Apr 2019 00:38

The same video also has the minimum radius turn from 6:19 to 6:40 for a 21 second 360 degree turn. Works out to a similar 17.14 deg/s STR.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2019 00:51

Aditya_V wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:A video which captures the max rate turns at Lima very well.

The 22-23 second 360 turns appear to be faster than what the F-18 demonstrated in the same conditions.
This seems more like 20-21 seconds 360 degree turn

We should not have to compare , you can execute a turn in a tighter radius at a slower speed .

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Apr 2019 00:53

Kartik wrote:The same video also has the minimum radius turn from 6:19 to 6:40 for a 21 second 360 degree turn. Works out to a similar 17.14 deg/s STR.

That's the average turn rate, between STR and ITR (closer to STR).

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 06 Apr 2019 01:14

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... in-457001/

ANALYSIS: How LIMA deployment marked new high for India's Tejas

While our MSM ignored LIMA, here is good read by FlightGlobal

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 01:27

Brilliant read.

ANALYSIS: How LIMA deployment marked new high for India's Tejas
SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com, BY: Greg Waldron Langkawi
05 April 2019

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=76742

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=76743

Group Captain Samrath Dhankhar of the Indian air force has earned a place in aviation history, as the commanding officer of its 45 Sqn (“The Flying Daggers”): the first to operate the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk1 fighter.
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Ostensibly the visit was made in support of Kuala Lumpur’s nascent requirement for a light combat aircraft. Yet it also underlined India’s increased confidence to show off the locally-made fighter to the world.
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The two jets’ journey to Langkawi from an air base near the city of Coimbatore took them northwards along the subcontinent’s east coast to another base near Kolkata. Although the optimum altitude for this transit was 33,000ft, the two-ship formation flew at 27,500ft, because separation rules at this altitude are more relaxed.

After that stop, the pair flew to Yangon in Myanmar and then onwards to Langkawi. A support aircraft flew ahead of the formation to provide logistical support and to greet the fighters on their arrival. At the show, the team found itself operating from a small tent next to the flightline. This was a big change from February’s Aero India event near Bengaluru, where the same team operated from the sprawling Yelahanka air base.

Prior to operating the Tejas, Dhankhar spent most of his career in the cockpit of the Mikoyan MiG-21 "Bison"; a heavily upgraded version of the Cold War stalwart and still a major asset in the Indian air force.

“The Tejas is far better in terms of manoeuvrability, as well as the systems on board,” he says. “In every sense it is better. It is clearly demarcated as a different generation.”
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Showing off this manoeuvrability was the aim of Dhankhar’s display routine, which he also performed during the Aero India show. This is designed to highlight the jet’s fly-by-wire capability through key manoeuvres such as the main radius turn and negative-g turn – the latter being rarely performed.

The Tejas Mk1 is powered by a single GE Aviation F404-IN20 engine with an afterburner. The examples operated by 45 Sqn are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration. Follow-on jets will be in the final operational clearance (FOC) standard.

So far, 45 Sqn has received 12 IOC-specification aircraft, with another four to be delivered soon. Next year it will realise its full strength of 20 jets, when it receives four two-seat examples in the FOC configuration.

The main difference between the two standards is software. FOC-model aircraft will be cleared to 8g, while current IOC examples are limited to 6g. In addition, FOC aircraft will be equipped for air-to-air refuelling. Once deliveries of FOC aircraft begin, existing IOC jets will be upgraded to the enhanced configuration.
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Dhankhar is clearly pleased with the Tejas. He praises its agility and says the type's g onset rates are “very comfortable”. He also believes that the type's control laws have been well implemented.

“It responds to your inputs in the entire envelope very well,” he says. “It's not as if you need to be at certain speeds to get the maximum out of it. At any speed it gives you whatever you demand.”

He also appreciates the safety factors built into the jet, in that it is impossible to depart from the approved flight envelope limits. This makes the aircraft “very, very safe,” he says. “This is a very positive thing, but at the same time this can be marginally negative because at times, if I would like to exceed the aircraft’s limits, I can't do that,” he adds.
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On the aircraft’s human-machine interface, he feels that everything is exactly where a pilot will expect to find it, with an intuitive layout that eases cockpit familiarisation. Apart from the master arm switch, virtually everything necessary to operate the aircraft is located on the throttle or control column, in line with modern hands on throttle and stick design methodology.

Although Dhankhar’s aerial display, performed with white smoke trailing from wing-mounted pods, was as powerful as any modern fighter performance, he stresses that air shows are not his main line of work.

“My primary job is to exploit the aircraft operationally. Displays as such are a side role for me. If it is required I'll do it, but otherwise the OEM does it on its own… I'm not a display specialist, but I'm capable of doing it,” he says.”
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As an example of this operational focus, Dhankhar notes that he has had the opportunity to fire or drop every weapon the Tejas has been cleared to carry: both air-to-air and ground-attack munitions. He feels the accuracy is excellent, and that the HMI makes it very easy to employ all weapons across the envelope. He believes that the Tejas’s helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to target weapons without pointing the aircraft's nose at the target, offers far greater freedom than the MiG-21, and is “much more advanced as compared with the Su-30”.
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“There are situations where you need the g,” he says. “Most of the time you can rely on sensors and BVR weapons, and you do not need to engage in close combat. But you should not be a sitting duck in case somebody closes in for some reason. Merges do take place despite whatever type of sensors you have. There are times when the criticality of the mission is high, and you need to take certain risks. In those missions you tend to go further, and the merges take place. If you are capable in terms of pulling more g, you may turn these situations to your advantage. That is what I feel as a fighter pilot.”
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Dhankhar says the gun has limited utility in air-to-air combat and is primarily useful for engaging soft targets that may pop up. He notes that there is no mission in which the gun is designated as the aircraft’s primary weapon.

“Most of the crosses that take place in aerial combat are through the frontal. Because it is difficult to launch weapons when somebody is head on, if you give a burst with the gun you might get one hit. Today's army guys still carry a bayonet. The gun is just like that: an aerial bayonet. Missiles have a minimum range. Less than that and the gun is the only option.”

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“Because of the jet’s architecture it’s very easy to upgrade,” says Dhankhar. “Having flown this aircraft, I can say it has a great future.”

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Apr 2019 02:09

What a wonderful article. Just one nitpick. What was flown at LIMA was an IOC aircraft. One couldn't do 21 second loops with 6 G restriction.

As I have said earlier, and I repeat it. The aircraft has been flown at 8.5Gs a few times now. It is not a priority item, but it will eventually get cleared for all operational aircraft.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 06 Apr 2019 06:40

^^ wonderful article.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Apr 2019 07:18

Sirs what are the time instants for the start/stop of negative g turn

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 06 Apr 2019 08:16

See... this is the problem when you get up at 730am after a late night... you start hallucinating. FG writing a glowing piece on tejas? I am going back to sleep.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 06 Apr 2019 08:45

Grp Cpt Dhankar sounds like he pretty much has the Bird sussed out completely... Must be itching to have a go at some solahs and bandars

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2019 11:43

Did you guys notice something missing in the FlighGlobal article?

No mention of LCA taking 30 years for development or facing issues or not in the league as new aircraft.....the usual rona-dhona!

Oh! how times change!!!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Apr 2019 16:21

Bharadwaj wrote:Grp Cpt Dhankar sounds like he pretty much has the Bird sussed out completely... Must be itching to have a go at some solahs and bandars

If there's a G restriction in IOC version that'll only be removed in next 16 FOC versions, then I don't expect this lot to go to the frontline anytime soon. WingCo Abhi showed what GC Shankar is talking about. Merge is expected and G's matter in the merge.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 06 Apr 2019 16:42

There is no 6g restriction- it is 8g as Indranil has told us. The 6g was not a quote from the group captain. GC Dhankar was talking in general terms about agility being still a need. Please read the full article on the FG website which will give the context of his views on the merge. It has nothing to do with the non existent 6g limit.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Apr 2019 19:41

I'm not saying it's restricted to 6g. But if there's a difference between FOC and IOC limits then IAF will wait till these limits are removed. Intact, I think that the reason for sending SP-9 and 10 (as opposed to SP - 1 to 8 ) may be because it's very likely that each new SP aircraft would have seen incremental upgrades. These two may have the latest FCS version.

shri_abhi · Post by **shri_abhi** » 06 Apr 2019 22:44

Admin, can we have a comparison table on specifications/differences for MK1 IOC/IOC2/FOC/ MK1A / MK2(MWF).

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Apr 2019 00:58

^^
Can you make one ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2019 02:50

suryag wrote:Sirs what are the time instants for the start/stop of negative g turn

The inverted part at the top of the square loop is -1 G. The bottom corner while turning from vertical to horizontal is 8G. The whole outside turn is -3.5 G.

Like I said before, the LCA display is for the educated in this field. It is not for the lay man. What good is an aircraft in a big square loop. But to the educated, it shows its instantaneous turn rates under 4 conditions, flight envelop from -1 G to 8G, TWR while pulling from horizontal to vertical and accelerating away. And they don't do it slow. It is full AB, all the time.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2019 02:56

JTull wrote:I'm not saying it's restricted to 6g. But if there's a difference between FOC and IOC limits then IAF will wait till these limits are removed. Intact, I think that the reason for sending SP-9 and 10 (as opposed to SP - 1 to 8 ) may be because it's very likely that each new SP aircraft would have seen incremental upgrades. These two may have the latest FCS version.

There is no modification of the airframe from SP1 onwards. Yes, the FCS has been updated. But that is like doing any other software update. I think the reporter got confused. When IOC was provided the envelop had only been opened to 6G. It doesn't mean that SP-1 to SP-16 are limited to 6 G now. I mean think of it. They are showcasing over 30 degrees ITR at 700 kmph. Possible with 6 Gs?

SP9 and SP10 were sent because they are one of newest aircrafts which have been taken through their paces. The aircrafts must have been given a nice scrub down and sent to LIMA.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Apr 2019 10:33

What's important for RMAF is to compare sorties generated by LCA over this 15 day deployment and their spare usage. Russians and Chinese may offer great credit facilities but spares won't be easily available and they come with political baggage.

Out of the contenders that are already in series production, this is the only one with clear development path and guaranteed production for at least a decade.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2019 17:53

https://twitter.com/shivaexports_in/sta ... 6763318273 ---> Group Captain Samrath Dhankhar of the Indian Air Force has earned a place in aviation history, as the commanding officer of No 45 Flying Daggers Squadron ---> the first to operate the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Tejas Mk1 fighter.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Apr 2019 17:54

https://twitter.com/living4hind/status/ ... 7941397504 ----> Team Tejas landed back in Kalaikunda, India today. The team was led by Group Captain Karan Hajela and he says, "It was an invaluable & enriching experience for the team to participate in an International Air Show with the indigenous LCA Tejas."

khan · Post by **khan** » 07 Apr 2019 22:48

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/shivaexports_in/sta ... 6763318273 ---> Group Captain Samrath Dhankhar of the Indian Air Force has earned a place in aviation history, as the commanding officer of No 45 Flying Daggers Squadron ---> the first to operate the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Tejas Mk1 fighter.

Build quality doesn’t look so good here. Check out the yellow stuff sticking out from under the under-wing panel.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Apr 2019 23:32

surface finish is only 10% of build quality. learn!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2019 23:37

Khan, you have it wrong. That's likely the primer showing through at parts where the paint has worn off due to moving surfaces, i.e. the leading edge flaps.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FjxNI6ucEYg/U ... 0430-L.jpg

If you see operational aircraft used heavily, everything starts looking old in crevices and corners, with moving parts as paint is stripped off. These will remain untouched unless there is an operational reason to remove the part & repaint (will otherwise occur in mandatory overhaul) or if the environment is heavily corrosive (naval aviation).

The build quality relates to the overall fit and finish of the aircraft in terms of fit & finish, quality of integration, of which we can only get a rough idea from pics. But so far the panels and other structures fit together far better than those on some of our MiGs. This does affect drag. Also, no complaints yet from the 45 squadron guys. This is a big deal and NFTC requires a big vote of thanks for that, by ensuring standards were maintained viz design.

khan · Post by **khan** » 07 Apr 2019 23:53

Karan M wrote:Khan, you have it wrong. That's likely the primer showing through at parts where the paint has worn off due to moving surfaces, i.e. the leading edge flaps.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FjxNI6ucEYg/U ... 0430-L.jpg

If you see operational aircraft used heavily, everything starts looking old in crevices and corners, with moving parts as paint is stripped off. These will remain untouched unless there is an operational reason to remove the part & repaint (will otherwise occur in mandatory overhaul) or if the environment is heavily corrosive (naval aviation).

The build quality relates to the overall fit and finish of the aircraft in terms of fit & finish, quality of integration, of which we can only get a rough idea from pics. But so far the panels and other structures fit together far better than those on some of our MiGs. This does affect drag. Also, no complaints yet from the 45 squadron guys. This is a big deal and NFTC requires a big vote of thanks for that, by ensuring standards were maintained viz design.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. Just wanted to add that I do have some background with composites in a marine environment (fiberglass, Kevlar, carbon fibre with different types of resins - epoxy/polyester/vinelester). In a marine environment, having this type of over-coat loss is a big problem since these coats aren’t just cosmetic, but they protect from water intrusion and keep the various layers of composites from delaminating.

The standards & techniques might be different for aircraft - but from what little I know, that panel looks distressed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2019 00:16

Yes, in a naval environment any corrosion can be a huge issue.

That is not a distressed composite panel however, (any distressed panel of any sort, the regular maintenance inspections would pick it up and fix it).

Its just the moving aluminum leading edge flap, which due to friction has worn out its paint, and hence the yellow primer is peeking through.

khan · Post by **khan** » 08 Apr 2019 00:38

Karan M wrote:Yes, in a naval environment any corrosion can be a huge issue.

That is not a distressed composite panel however, (any distressed panel of any sort, the regular maintenance inspections would pick it up and fix it).

Its just the moving aluminum leading edge flap, which due to friction has worn out its paint, and hence the yellow primer is peeking through.

Thank you once again. It is very impressive how much of the LCA surface area is composite.

It would surprise me if it has a bigger RCS than the MiG-21.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2019 00:49

It probably doesn't. Repeated references exist from ADA and even some IAF guys testing, that the composites and general size of the bird, will both contribute to a low RCS. Combine that with a jammer and I won't be surprised if this aircraft is very hard for most PAF & PRC aircraft to handle.