Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 19 Oct 2019 17:19

Rakesh wrote:^^^ If one looks at the long term viability of the fleet...it does not look rosy with a fleet largely flying on American engines. Based on the numbers that are known, this is the scenario that the IAF is looking at;

40 Tejas Mk1: F404-IN20
83 Tejas Mk1A: F404-IN20
200 Tejas Mk2: F414-GE-INS6
AMCA: F414-GE-INS6 (Boeing's proposal with the selection of the F-18). Let us assume a production run of at least 100 aircraft.
114 MRCA: F414-GE-400 if it is the F-18 or likely the F110-GE-132 if it is the F-21.

423 desi aircraft and 114 phoren aircraft - that is close to 540 aircraft flying with an American engine. The only other birds that will be flying (along with the above) will be the 36 Rafales (M88 turbofan) and the 272 Su-30MKIs (AL-31FP turbofan). Even if the MRCA deal is cancelled and the 114 birds are replaced with Tejas or AMCA, the situation does not change. Either bird - AMCA or Tejas - will be flying with a GE engine.

When more than 50% of your combat fleet is flying with an American engine, how independent can India really be?

It is not the sanctions that is worrisome, but the lack of independence.



Lack of independence comes from continually purchasing foreign weapon systems. Be it French, Russian or American. The GE engine is the most reliable in the world until such engines can be made domestically. The Tejas at this stage will get a big push with the GE F404 and F414 engines that will give extensive knowledge and expertise.

Sanctions on GE engines would be the least of the IAF and IN worries. Spares on the C-17, C-130, Seahawk, Chinooks, Apaches, and 20 or so P-8Is would be the bigger problem. Yet, GoI continues to buy defensive and now offensive weapon systems from US Mil contractors through the FMS route.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby rakall » 20 Oct 2019 15:54

nash wrote:

Trials of upgraded LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Tejas are conducted in Pokhran field firing range.The aircraft is being tested on various parameters from last two days.DRDO and air force officials were present in the range during trials.HAL has introduced new features in the engine of LCA Tejas.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst


Now which Trial it is and which upgraded version or a typical DDM article.


SJHA tweeted this...
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1185856066128449537

So might be the SPORT version or a trainer version kitted out with some of the SPORT features??? :?: :?: :?:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nash » 20 Oct 2019 21:58

rakall wrote:
SJHA tweeted this...
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1185856066128449537

So might be the SPORT version or a trainer version kitted out with some of the SPORT features??? :?: :?: :?:


Yes HV Thakur has mentioned this thing in the AI-2019.

And these things can be the part of testing:

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... OyM2iH14ZA

Among them is a glide bomb and an air-launched swarm drone system called the Alpha-S, a metre-long drone carrying 1.5 tonnes of explosives and designed to be air-launched from panniers carried aboard fighter aircraft.

When deployed, the drones fly in formation at speeds of 100 kmph, scouting for targets of opportunity, including missile sites. Once the target is identified, the swarm dives, kamikaze-style, to obliterate the target.

“The system is so compact that a Sukhoi Su-30 is capable of carrying 30 to 40 drones,” Thakur explained, adding that this is the future of warfare.

Armed with AI, the drone is designed to fly nearly a 100 kilometers ahead of a conventional fighter to engage enemy threats.


With these kind of specification, from strike like Balakot to full fledge war many things will change.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Zynda » 20 Oct 2019 22:05

This is the Loyal Wingman concept being jointly developed by HAL and NewSpace, a start-up. Last I heard (around 3-4 months ago), they were planning on doing wind tunnel testing of their scaled models. If they are testing/flying the prototypes already, then they are super-efficient in getting work done (and perhaps working their employees to death along with way).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 21 Oct 2019 01:21

No. This one is just standard weapon delivery trials at the Pokhran range. The squadron is there. It was supposed to be a low key mundane affair. News got out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bart S » 21 Oct 2019 02:18


https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... OyM2iH14ZA

Among them is a glide bomb and an air-launched swarm drone system called the Alpha-S, a metre-long drone carrying 1.5 tonnes of explosives and designed to be air-launched from panniers carried aboard fighter aircraft.

When deployed, the drones fly in formation at speeds of 100 kmph, scouting for targets of opportunity, including missile sites. Once the target is identified, the swarm dives, kamikaze-style, to obliterate the target.

“The system is so compact that a Sukhoi Su-30 is capable of carrying 30 to 40 drones,” Thakur explained, adding that this is the future of warfare.

Armed with AI, the drone is designed to fly nearly a 100 kilometers ahead of a conventional fighter to engage enemy threats.


These guys (either DDM or the guys feeding them this stuff) are full of cr@p. How can a 1 meter long drone carry 1.5 tonnes of explosives and have a 100 km range?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Najunamar » 21 Oct 2019 05:07

Bart S wrote:

https://www.deccanherald.com/city/benga ... OyM2iH14ZA

Among them is a glide bomb and an air-launched swarm drone system called the Alpha-S, a metre-long drone carrying 1.5 tonnes of explosives and designed to be air-launched from panniers carried aboard fighter aircraft.

When deployed, the drones fly in formation at speeds of 100 kmph, scouting for targets of opportunity, including missile sites. Once the target is identified, the swarm dives, kamikaze-style, to obliterate the target.

“The system is so compact that a Sukhoi Su-30 is capable of carrying 30 to 40 drones,” Thakur explained, adding that this is the future of warfare.

Armed with AI, the drone is designed to fly nearly a 100 kilometers ahead of a conventional fighter to engage enemy threats.


These guys (either DDM or the guys feeding them this stuff) are full of cr@p. How can a 1 meter long drone carry 1.5 tonnes of explosives and have a 100 km range?

Yes, truly explosive stuff. Besides, even if the drones themselves are carrying zero fuel (for 100 km of pure gliding???), how's the SU-30 to carry 40*1.5 = 60 tons of payload plus it's own fuel and armaments?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Luxtor » 21 Oct 2019 06:51

Mort Walker wrote:
Rakesh wrote:^^^ If one looks at the long term viability of the fleet...it does not look rosy with a fleet largely flying on American engines. Based on the numbers that are known, this is the scenario that the IAF is looking at;

40 Tejas Mk1: F404-IN20
83 Tejas Mk1A: F404-IN20
200 Tejas Mk2: F414-GE-INS6
AMCA: F414-GE-INS6 (Boeing's proposal with the selection of the F-18). Let us assume a production run of at least 100 aircraft.
114 MRCA: F414-GE-400 if it is the F-18 or likely the F110-GE-132 if it is the F-21.

423 desi aircraft and 114 phoren aircraft - that is close to 540 aircraft flying with an American engine. The only other birds that will be flying (along with the above) will be the 36 Rafales (M88 turbofan) and the 272 Su-30MKIs (AL-31FP turbofan). Even if the MRCA deal is cancelled and the 114 birds are replaced with Tejas or AMCA, the situation does not change. Either bird - AMCA or Tejas - will be flying with a GE engine.

When more than 50% of your combat fleet is flying with an American engine, how independent can India really be?

It is not the sanctions that is worrisome, but the lack of independence.



Lack of independence comes from continually purchasing foreign weapon systems. Be it French, Russian or American. The GE engine is the most reliable in the world until such engines can be made domestically. The Tejas at this stage will get a big push with the GE F404 and F414 engines that will give extensive knowledge and expertise.

Sanctions on GE engines would be the least of the IAF and IN worries. Spares on the C-17, C-130, Seahawk, Chinooks, Apaches, and 20 or so P-8Is would be the bigger problem. Yet, GoI continues to buy defensive and now offensive weapon systems from US Mil contractors through the FMS route.



The above is a great and critical point. I think India, i.e. ADA/HAL should make LCA and their derivatives' air frame independent of engine nationality/brands, whether American, French or Russian. Similar class of engines should be interchangeable in the LCA engine bay. I know someone now will jump on me for saying this...and explaining that engines need to optimized for the air frame, intake, exhaust nozzels, etc. and one engine is not the same as the other. But it's logical that engines in the same class would have similar, air intake volume, weight and weight distribution. Of course the mounting, electrical, fuel, control wiring, piping, etc. would need to be changed/customized for each brand of engine. But if we want engine independence while still using foreign engines, then we must do this engine interchangeability until Kaveri or some other future Desi engine comes online fully. Where there is a will there is a way. In the past we've some times lacked the will to accomplish nationally important/critical goals mainly due to poor leadership both in the civilian and military. But it looks like things have changed now, certainly in the civilian leadership and now with the new IAF chief preferring indigenous weapon systems.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 21 Oct 2019 08:09

^^^It doesn't work that way. Aircraft design is not modular as far engines are concerned. The LCA Tejas MK-I, MK- IA,MK-II, and MWF have been designed around the GE 404 and 414 series engines. What should be pursued is to make this engine under license in India. We need 500 LCA Tejas of all varieties ASAP yesterday. The Tejas has very high availability and must be preferred. Stop at 36 Rafales.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby venkat_r » 22 Oct 2019 06:34

Mort Walker wrote:
Rakesh wrote:When more than 50% of your combat fleet is flying with an American engine, how independent can India really be?

It is not the sanctions that is worrisome, but the lack of independence.



Lack of independence comes from continually purchasing foreign weapon systems. Be it French, Russian or American. The GE engine is the most reliable in the world until such engines can be made domestically. The Tejas at this stage will get a big push with the GE F404 and F414 engines that will give extensive knowledge and expertise.

Sanctions on GE engines would be the least of the IAF and IN worries. Spares on the C-17, C-130, Seahawk, Chinooks, Apaches, and 20 or so P-8Is would be the bigger problem. Yet, GoI continues to buy defensive and now offensive weapon systems from US Mil contractors through the FMS route.


Exactly, if all those components can be subjected to sanctions and it is a bigger problem. So it is not just engines.

If we want to be independent, an engine needs to be developed and in this case perfect is the enemy of the good. India should try to get some engine going like a Shakti engine and look to develop another independent one later.

One home built engine should go a long way to help ease up the production, maintenance and also gives enough time to develop another variant.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vishvak » 22 Oct 2019 18:14

Mort Walker wrote:^^^It doesn't work that way. Aircraft design is not modular as far engines are concerned. The LCA Tejas MK-I, MK- IA,MK-II, and MWF have been designed around the GE 404 and 414 series engines. What should be pursued is to make this engine under license in India. We need 500 LCA Tejas of all varieties ASAP yesterday. The Tejas has very high availability and must be preferred. Stop at 36 Rafales.

Okay though if the numbers for MWF (dual engine) are more can it not mean an alternative is designed as well just for the same with another engine in mind (French or Russian). Just as an example.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 22 Oct 2019 21:38

HAL's strike now 8 days on is making little headlines.The IAF owes it a huge amount of money and as the 20K workers keep up their agitation, the entire indigenisation programme of our aircraft and helo industry is at risk.
HAL was not a loss- making co. It was making a healthy profit.Are firang OEMs conspiring to bring down HAL, privatise it and dump ancient flying machines from the US onto us? Interestingly SAAB yet again in today's media repeated their offer of TOT, etc.A coincidence? The jury is out.The GOI/ MOD must sort this out immediately as at this critical juncture in our history, with two enemies conspiring against us with a proxy war in J&K on, DPSU operations must be smooth and working to max capacity, not on strike.

The LCA production will definitely be hit and affected badly if a swift end to the strike is not negotiated.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 22 Oct 2019 22:24

Mort Walker wrote:^^^It doesn't work that way. Aircraft design is not modular as far engines are concerned. The LCA Tejas MK-I, MK- IA,MK-II, and MWF have been designed around the GE 404 and 414 series engines. What should be pursued is to make this engine under license in India. We need 500 LCA Tejas of all varieties ASAP yesterday. The Tejas has very high availability and must be preferred. Stop at 36 Rafales.



That is true, they may be designed around GE404 and 414, but if one produces equivalent engines, why are they not replaceable with those? For sake of argument, if safran and gtre design an equivalent 404 replacement with similar specs and 414+ engine for MWF/AMCA - why can they not be interchanged? We are looking at re engineering jags with honeywell engine or AN132 with higher powered engines too.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 22 Oct 2019 22:54

Cybaru wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^It doesn't work that way. Aircraft design is not modular as far engines are concerned. The LCA Tejas MK-I, MK- IA,MK-II, and MWF have been designed around the GE 404 and 414 series engines. What should be pursued is to make this engine under license in India. We need 500 LCA Tejas of all varieties ASAP yesterday. The Tejas has very high availability and must be preferred. Stop at 36 Rafales.



That is true, they may be designed around GE404 and 414, but if one produces equivalent engines, why are they not replaceable with those? For sake of argument, if safran and gtre design an equivalent 404 replacement with similar specs and 414+ engine for MWF/AMCA - why can they not be interchanged? We are looking at re engineering jags with honeywell engine or AN132 with higher powered engines too.


You can design for similar specification and even measurements, but I think what Mort is getting at is that doing so does not do away with the need to properly integrate the said engine and then run a thorough flight test program to certify it for use on the platform. It isn't plug and play.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 22 Oct 2019 23:30

Oh sure, it won't be plug and play but will need a good bit of testing, but it can be done and has been done. Engine upgrades and higher thrust engines require significant testing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Oct 2019 06:38

Cybaru wrote:Oh sure, it won't be plug and play but will need a good bit of testing, but it can be done and has been done. Engine upgrades and higher thrust engines require significant testing.


That's correct. It isn't modular in design and needs full integration. Another comparable engine could be used, but then you've got all of qualification testing to repeat.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Luxtor » 23 Oct 2019 07:05

Philip wrote:HAL's strike now 8 days on is making little headlines.The IAF owes it a huge amount of money and as the 20K workers keep up their agitation, the entire indigenisation programme of our aircraft and helo industry is at risk.
HAL was not a loss- making co. It was making a healthy profit.Are firang OEMs conspiring to bring down HAL, privatise it and dump ancient flying machines from the US onto us? Interestingly SAAB yet again in today's media repeated their offer of TOT, etc.A coincidence? The jury is out.The GOI/ MOD must sort this out immediately as at this critical juncture in our history, with two enemies conspiring against us with a proxy war in J&K on, DPSU operations must be smooth and working to max capacity, not on strike.

The LCA production will definitely be hit and affected badly if a swift end to the strike is not negotiated.


Has anyone gave it any thought as to if this strike has been instigated by our enemies from outside, via-a-vis Chinese and Pukies...maybe even others? All it would take is to get to the leadership of the unions with bribes or getting them into a compromising situation and blackmail them. I'm not categorically saying that's what has happened here but just food for thought.

It should be illegal for government workers to strike, especially national security related employees. They are just the same as service personal in the armed forces and police forces.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 23 Oct 2019 07:19

For decades the state of affairs in the DPSUs has been pathetic.They perform in patches.Deep-seated control and a total lack of accountability by babudom in the MOD is the key factor for the sad state of indigenisation. The DRDO meant only to develop systems in part is also involved in manufacturing items.The OFB a disaster with thousands of crores of dud ammo leading to knee-jerk purchases from abroad earlier this year so our forces could fight....for a week! The pvt. sector is rationed with a meagre amount of orders, that too after a torturous procedure to first qualify.

You don't need China or Pak to stir the pot, we're doing it ourselves. An MOD that deliberately keeps out the forces technical specialists out from decision making so that they control military matters is a recipe for disaster.Resolving this sad situ requires concerted political effort and cleansing the augean stables of the MOD.George Fernandes had the right attitude sending babus to Siachen!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 23 Oct 2019 09:53

Karnataka HC has asked striking employees to return to work.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 23 Oct 2019 18:46

Philip wrote:HAL's strike now 8 days on is making little headlines.The IAF owes it a huge amount of money and as the 20K workers keep up their agitation, the entire indigenisation programme of our aircraft and helo industry is at risk.
HAL was not a loss- making co. It was making a healthy profit.Are firang OEMs conspiring to bring down HAL, privatise it and dump ancient flying machines from the US onto us? Interestingly SAAB yet again in today's media repeated their offer of TOT, etc.A coincidence? The jury is out.The GOI/ MOD must sort this out immediately as at this critical juncture in our history, with two enemies conspiring against us with a proxy war in J&K on, DPSU operations must be smooth and working to max capacity, not on strike.

The LCA production will definitely be hit and affected badly if a swift end to the strike is not negotiated.


HAL is required but what is not is the Sarkari attitude coupled with its play safe mentality of stretching the production of jets over maximum number of years and openly being partial to the Natasha lobby.

If this means privatizing it then God speed to that and rightfully a middle finger to those leftists/commies and (Con)gressi who are opposing it. we simply require a more efficient HAL.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2019 19:58

Philip wrote:HAL's strike now 8 days on is making little headlines.The IAF owes it a huge amount of money and as the 20K workers keep up their agitation, the entire indigenisation programme of our aircraft and helo industry is at risk.
HAL was not a loss- making co. It was making a healthy profit.Are firang OEMs conspiring to bring down HAL, privatise it and dump ancient flying machines from the US onto us? Interestingly SAAB yet again in today's media repeated their offer of TOT, etc.A coincidence? The jury is out.The GOI/ MOD must sort this out immediately as at this critical juncture in our history, with two enemies conspiring against us with a proxy war in J&K on, DPSU operations must be smooth and working to max capacity, not on strike.

The LCA production will definitely be hit and affected badly if a swift end to the strike is not negotiated.


So why is IAF withholding the 'huge' money? Usually payment has to be 90 days net after delivery.

Is someone in IAF holding up the release of funds?
I thought MoD releases the funds.

Please enlighten.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 24 Oct 2019 01:34

^^^
The funds are supposed to come from the budget allocated to the IAF. Who “releases” them seems to be a complicated question. Is it the IAF, or, MoD, or MoF, or ....? How many approval signatures are required :((

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 24 Oct 2019 02:13

srai wrote:^^^
The funds are supposed to come from the budget allocated to the IAF. Who “releases” them seems to be a complicated question. Is it the IAF, or, MoD, or MoF, or ....? How many approval signatures are required :((



Have seen such comments before on BRF and am curious if anyone (Sraiji included) can help back this up with any links or pointers ?

I was under the impression that "OpEx" at MoD PSUs like HAL which is where worker salaries etc come from is a different color of money than Project Cash that are linked to customer orders. So yes a new hardware factory line cannot be started (prima facie, unless Mgt. dips into its own cash flows to bridge stuff which happens all the time) as that requires POs to be sent out to get parts made etc, but this does not affect salaries.

Old timers will recall in the 90s there were large stretches of time where HAL Bangalore Aircraft factories had literally thousands of workers with nothing to do..they came to work, played cards, went to the canteen, read their magazines etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2019 04:38

Maybe vidur can tell us?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Oct 2019 06:39

^^ Agupta ji, PSU are self contained units. They have to arrange for salaries from within their revenue stream.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby habal » 24 Oct 2019 11:12

Attempt seems to be to one way or another to keep Indian war reserves down to just above attrition level.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Nikhil T » 24 Oct 2019 13:25

It’s driven by inadequate budgetary allocation for IAF, which is now prioritizing its foreign obligations over PSU obligations.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 24 Oct 2019 13:43

Nikhil T wrote:It’s driven by inadequate budgetary allocation for IAF, which is now prioritizing its foreign obligations over PSU obligations.


This is sickening if true. Choosing to pay foreign over Indian suppliers?

There should be a pool of money at the MOD or even MOF level reserved for indigenous orders. Basically a subsidy for local products. Therefore, the IAF can only tap that reserve of rupees if it buys Indian. If it buys phoren, it must pay for it entirely out of its own budget.

Right now we are forcing the IAF to pay for local on its own without any incentive when its experience had always been with foreign products, some of which are simply beyond the ability of our nascent industry to match at this point. But without support from our own armed forces, the local industry will never be given the resources to catch up.

The GOI has to intervene here with funds for MII. Otherwise, like what we are seeing now, the IAF or members of it can strangle a critical project like the Tejas by not paying for it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 24 Oct 2019 14:04

BTW, the strike is over unfair raises given management over the rank and file.

The managers, since HAL is a PSU we can call them the babudom, are getting 15% raise and 35% perks to the 10% raise for workers.

I have no problem with private companies willing to spend their own cash on management. But for a PSU where everyone feeds at the public till, I find it distasteful that the baboons are giving themselves a hefty raise over that of the workers -- not that I am all that more sympathetic for the unions.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2019 16:14

Not sure if that is the case, most PSU's have skilled and non skilled cadre, where the skilled persons do all the work and non skilled people mostly are want a sarkari job and while away time and not related to the production process. This could be the case in HAL also where they need to retain the skilled talent and the pro import media is doing a spin.

I even doubt these workers cripple production as it the executives and above who are qualified engineers who work on production. In Neyveli Lignite Corporation around 5 years back, the workers category went for a strike and Power production was not affected

Here is also a link which better explains the issue, workers have increments every 5 years and executives and managers have an increment every 10 years.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1183691383841984512

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Nikhil T » 25 Oct 2019 11:57

chola wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:It’s driven by inadequate budgetary allocation for IAF, which is now prioritizing its foreign obligations over PSU obligations.


This is sickening if true. Choosing to pay foreign over Indian suppliers?

There should be a pool of money at the MOD or even MOF level reserved for indigenous orders. Basically a subsidy for local products. Therefore, the IAF can only tap that reserve of rupees if it buys Indian. If it buys phoren, it must pay for it entirely out of its own budget.

Right now we are forcing the IAF to pay for local on its own without any incentive when its experience had always been with foreign products, some of which are simply beyond the ability of our nascent industry to match at this point. But without support from our own armed forces, the local industry will never be given the resources to catch up.

The GOI has to intervene here with funds for MII. Otherwise, like what we are seeing now, the IAF or members of it can strangle a critical project like the Tejas by not paying for it.


It’s quite well known - IAF owes over Rs 20,000 crore to HAL.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/ ... crore.html

With funds withheld, HAL has to borrow even for working capital expenses (ala BSNL and Air India). In turn, IAF’s ambitions are not matched by GoI’s budget allocations. We don’t really discuss it much on BRF, but Modi has not really grown the capital budget as much as many of us expected him to increase. In 2014, he allocated Rs 94,000 crore to Defence capital budget. In 2019, it is Rs 1,03,000 crore i.e. just 9% increase in 5 years. In contrast, for all it faults, UPA 2 increased capital budget by ~70% during its 5 yr term.

Simply said, IAF needs to realize there’s no money in the bank for grandiose plans of 114 single engine fighters and fielding 42 squadrons. In addition, keeping HAL starved for cash, but expecting them to build world class fighters/helicopters is just unreasonable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby RKumar » 25 Oct 2019 13:34

^ The big difference, is during last 6 years we are buying more Indian products - which are much cheaper; - sometimes at least 1/4 the cost of highly commissioned (cough cough ... you know what I mean) imported products.

If with the same money, we can better and world class local products why to complain?

Another point, we might spent 70% more money without any effective use or benefits. But we do see much better use and results from security and nation building with just 9% increase. What do you think?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby RKumar » 25 Oct 2019 13:59

Wasn't HAL and OFB guys saying they would work around the clock when war cloud are around? I was hoping they will be back to their workshops and working overtime to refill the reserves - which we are being consumed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 25 Oct 2019 17:06

^^^
Will a private company do the same? They will go bankrupt if they have to keep paying salaries and purchases, but their clients hold up payments.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 25 Oct 2019 18:05

srai wrote:^^^
Will a private company do the same? They will go bankrupt if they have to keep paying salaries and purchases, but their clients hold up payments.


Boeing, LockMartin, Raytheon and the rest are all private companies. The US government pays them on time and at a premium to keep a vital industry alive and thriving.

It depends on how the GOI views its priorities.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 25 Oct 2019 19:23

chola wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Will a private company do the same? They will go bankrupt if they have to keep paying salaries and purchases, but their clients hold up payments.


Boeing, LockMartin, Raytheon and the rest are all private companies. The US government pays them on time and at a premium to keep a vital industry alive and thriving.

It depends on how the GOI views its priorities.



This may not be an appropriate equivalence... will be true only when HAL is held accountable to its promised deliverables with the level of open-ness that the US OEMs are.

Is the only evidence here, Shukla's Blog and the HAL chief's one-sided public complaining ? Any commentary on what the rationale (however strong or flimsy or baboo-ey) has been advanced for the non-payment ? I for one have a hard time believing, that in 2019, one party can just go say "pbuthth" and get away with it. There's more to it than meets the eye...and one party seems to be OK having a public mud wrestling match about it :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 25 Oct 2019 23:18

RKumar wrote:^ The big difference, is during last 6 years we are buying more Indian products - which are much cheaper; - sometimes at least 1/4 the cost of highly commissioned (cough cough ... you know what I mean) imported products.

I really doubt that, are there any official numbers to support that? happy to be corrected though.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Nikhil T » 26 Oct 2019 00:03

RKumar wrote:^ The big difference, is during last 6 years we are buying more Indian products - which are much cheaper; - sometimes at least 1/4 the cost of highly commissioned (cough cough ... you know what I mean) imported products.

If with the same money, we can better and world class local products why to complain?

Another point, we might spent 70% more money without any effective use or benefits. But we do see much better use and results from security and nation building with just 9% increase. What do you think?


These are all opinions and hypotheses. The facts from our budget documents are in front of us.

I think we need to cut down our revenue expenditure to free up money for capital acquisitions and also be willing to accept 'good' equipment in largeer numbers over small numbers of 'perfect' equipment.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 26 Oct 2019 00:35

agupta wrote:
chola wrote:
Boeing, LockMartin, Raytheon and the rest are all private companies. The US government pays them on time and at a premium to keep a vital industry alive and thriving.

It depends on how the GOI views its priorities.



This may not be an appropriate equivalence... will be true only when HAL is held accountable to its promised deliverables with the level of open-ness that the US OEMs are.

Is the only evidence here, Shukla's Blog and the HAL chief's one-sided public complaining ? Any commentary on what the rationale (however strong or flimsy or baboo-ey) has been advanced for the non-payment ? I for one have a hard time believing, that in 2019, one party can just go say "pbuthth" and get away with it. There's more to it than meets the eye...and one party seems to be OK having a public mud wrestling match about it :)


The crux of it is the US and most other big nations make sure to pay their own first. It should not matter of they are private or PSU. They are part of the nation's vital capacity. But here we are as the world's top arms importer (for decades I might add) practically starving our prime aerospace firm of funds. Just like in the Kaveri thread, this seeming refusal to spend at home while supporting the MICs of everyone else makes no sense to me. Only we are like this.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 26 Oct 2019 01:28

chola wrote:
agupta wrote:

This may not be an appropriate equivalence... will be true only when HAL is held accountable to its promised deliverables with the level of open-ness that the US OEMs are.

Is the only evidence here, Shukla's Blog and the HAL chief's one-sided public complaining ? Any commentary on what the rationale (however strong or flimsy or baboo-ey) has been advanced for the non-payment ? I for one have a hard time believing, that in 2019, one party can just go say "pbuthth" and get away with it. There's more to it than meets the eye...and one party seems to be OK having a public mud wrestling match about it :)


The crux of it is the US and most other big nations make sure to pay their own first. It should not matter of they are private or PSU. They are part of the nation's vital capacity. But here we are as the world's top arms importer (for decades I might add) practically starving our prime aerospace firm of funds. Just like in the Kaveri thread, this seeming refusal to spend at home while supporting the MICs of everyone else makes no sense to me. Only we are like this.


" we are like this only"... perhaps, but this is a speculation mixing with general laments about everything and anything.

Very specifically - what orders/funds and for what was being withheld ? For this I cannot find ANYTHING when I try to. Not even a question in parliament from say the local MP that MoD would be forced to answer for - in case there is a legitimate gripe (you know, the parliamentary process...).

To me, there is a very strong likelihood that the payments have been stopped for non-performance and this actually has contractual support e.g., HAL may have gotten used to delivering stuff at 85% completion and then take 5 years to finish the last 15%- at their pace and when they feel like it...and IAF may have said - um, no - we do by the book, just like we do for the furrinners. ( ALERT: this is pure speculation on my part). And because this has formal support, the government is fine staying silent and saying to HAL - execute to your contract, get paid as per its provisions. Especially given how low HAL leadership (current and past) went during the Rafale saga...

Anyway, my last on the topic...since its clear real info seems to be very hard to come by on the subject; just lots of opinions and interpolations/extrapolations from the side or from other/bigger gripes.


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