Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 25 Jan 2020 23:55

Tejas pilot interview
Worth a read especially the bit about it's biggest myth.

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... ssion=true

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 26 Jan 2020 01:03

Dileep wrote:Radome design is 'black art'. We had done some work on one for a satcom terminal, which did not have beam direction criticality, and that itself was terrible. We are currently proposing one for an airborne weather radar, which is orders of magnitude tougher..

I am setting up a new anachoic and designing the wide band hi gain TX antenna. Theory gets kicked by reality very often. Humbling kicks.

It spins my head thinking about the needs of the fighter radar. You need to give it to the Cobham guys. The performance they gave for the Mk1 was phenomenal. Till RBE2 shows up, the Mk1 radar is the best we have. Bars may have the range, but Mk1 have the clarity. To give a simile, Bars will be like a 20X digital zoom, while Mk1 will be like 10X optical zoom

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jan 2020 02:03

Khalsa wrote:Tejas pilot interview
Worth a read especially the bit about it's biggest myth.

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... ssion=true

Confirms what we suspected

We’ve got a winner on our hands! The Tejas is a superb light fighter in nearly all respects and 126 of these at Mk1 and Mk1A standard will really improve the IAFs war fighting potential dramatically.

I truly cannot wait for the MWF. It builds on and should improve on all the good that the Mk1 and Mk1A have and takes it to the medium weight class which is where a pressing need is there.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jan 2020 02:08

Excellent cockpit, built in test (BITE) function to ease and hasten ground checks, a FCS that is described as fabulous and sensors that allow for see first thanks to the small size of the Tejas itself. His confidence really comes through in the interview and it is a more detailed interview than any we have seen before.

Request everyone to retweet and repost Hush Kit’s interview and share it as widely as possible. It’ll change the perception that some media folks have built up assiduously over years of reporting.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 26 Jan 2020 05:18

it is one great interview, read it few times (it's loaded with info, a keen mind can get many details)
1. It carefree handling per the pilot should be best in the world (ASLR). Throw the bird around, and if thrown bad, will recover itself and hand you the control back. You can never do wrong in this world. So it is Rookie friendly. One of the ASR for F-22 was that even a 19 year old fresh pilot can fly it, perhaps we have that in Tejas.
2.It has very less RCS, (due to shaping and material (composite body, still the highest in the world)), and small size (for WVR fight), it probably has the best first look, first shoot capability in the neighborhood.
2b) The cockpit and the display is a winner. Only displaying info that is needed and relevant (I guess the software is taking care of the rest, if there is any emergency, that info is then displayed on MFD, no need to have a permanent warning light). I suspect, they have further streamlined the display, at time of take off display only that is needed for takeoff, during dog fight info only on that, during A/G attack again info pertaining to that situation etc etc) and constantly evolving with fighter feed back.
3. Constantly evolving, getting better, does not have to wait for MLUs (that comes after few decades - e.g. M2K and M29), it is getting updated every day and is current.
4. The small size may have only one disadvantage -range (and by tradeoff payload, if going for longer range), (though no one talks about the range, maybe it is good and is our secret weapon). If the plan is to fight in Indo/pak border or china border (like Feb 27, 2019, or 100% sorties of Kargil and maybe 90% of 1965 and 1971 war), LCA should be sufficient. Of course it cannot take off from Bhopal and bomb Peshawar, but we have 500 other planes to do that. With AA refueling, that is addressed somewhat.
It is a winner, lets get these and it's bigger cousin MWF in numbers.

naird · Post by **naird** » 27 Jan 2020 06:33

Khalsa wrote:Tejas pilot interview
Worth a read especially the bit about it's biggest myth.

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... ssion=true

Terrific interview ! Finally something that i personally was waiting for a long time. While everything else made sense , i could not understand the below sentence. Can someone explain ? I thought guided munitions are usually targeted through pods like Litening, etc. Perhaps that is limited to only laser guided munitions. So, how does guided munitions work with ODL and SDR ?

Quote from Interview

new guided munitions from both our own ODL and new radio

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2020 01:11

The ODL refers to the Operational Data Link that is the IAF's datalink for linking all its aerial assets with the ground. New radio probably refers to Software Defined Radios (SDR) that are more secure.

But what he could be referring to is passing target coordinates over ODL for guided munitions. Or passive guidance, whereby a BVRAAM is guided by another jet that is controlling it via the ODL. So the shooter remains nose cold, not radiating and hence likely undetected.

However, I'm not sure, maybe Karan or Indranil could take a shot at explaining this.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2020 01:49

Dileep wrote:Radome design is 'black art'. We had done some work on one for a satcom terminal, which did not have beam direction criticality, and that itself was terrible. We are currently proposing one for an airborne weather radar, which is orders of magnitude tougher.

It spins my head thinking about the needs of the fighter radar. You need to give it to the Cobham guys. The performance they gave for the Mk1 was phenomenal. Till RBE2 shows up, the Mk1 radar is the best we have. Bars may have the range, but Mk1 have the clarity. To give a simile, Bars will be like a 20X digital zoom, while Mk1 will be like 10X optical zoom.

Is the Elta 2032 MMR is better than the RDY-3 of the Mirage-2000I? Really news to know that the Elta 2032 MMR has better target resolution than the Bars.

Elta must have had to share a lot of details pertaining to the radar for Cobham to design the radome for the Mk1A and that is what Elta was not happy to do? Will it be a quartz radome like that on the Mk1? Has HAL placed a contract with Elta to design it, given the Mk1A contract itself hasn't yet been signed?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jan 2020 01:57

Probably was part of the 2052 negotiation itself. Plus if 2052 is on the Darin III jags, then they must have solved this problem already. Are they on the jags? any confirmation?

naird · Post by **naird** » 28 Jan 2020 03:10

Cybaru wrote:Probably was part of the 2052 negotiation itself. Plus if 2052 is on the Darin III jags, then they must have solved this problem already. Are they on the jags? any confirmation?

They are on Jags as part of Darin III upgrade. Confirmed by HVF.

naird · Post by **naird** » 28 Jan 2020 03:30

Kartik wrote:The ODL refers to the Operational Data Link that is the IAF's datalink for linking all its aerial assets with the ground. New radio probably refers to Software Defined Radios (SDR) that are more secure.

But what he could be referring to is passing target coordinates over ODL for guided munitions. Or passive guidance, whereby a BVRAAM is guided by another jet that is controlling it via the ODL. So the shooter remains nose cold, not radiating and hence likely undetected.

However, I'm not sure, maybe Karan or Indranil could take a shot at explaining this.

I totally understand from BVR perspective where you have to course correct by providing mid course guidance but what is the need in guided munitions ? I am inferring guided munitions as 'Air to surface' munitions. Typically co-ordinates are fed and the smart munitions can self guide to target.

So the statement from test pilot has me confused !

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Jan 2020 03:38

Moving targets, location updates to guided munitions using datalinks.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2020 04:41

The pilot said things colloquially and zest. I am pretty sure he wanted to say Tejas will get "new guided munitions from both our own (agencies and outside and) ODL and new (SD) radio". All the above true from publicly available information.

I can also share that it has established itself as the best strike platform in terms of accuracy in current IAF inventory. It has swept every award in that respect last year. And I can tell you that there is room for improvement!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2020 04:41

A2A results should come from IAF personnel. They know what to say, and what not. The TP has told you that the aircraft belongs to the top echelon.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2020 04:49

Indranil wrote:The pilot said things colloquially and zest. I am pretty sure he wanted to say Tejas will get "new guided munitions from both our own (agencies and outside and) ODL and new (SD) radio". All the above true from publicly available information.

I can also share that it has established itself as the best strike platform in terms of accuracy in current IAF inventory. It has swept every award in that respect last year. And I can tell you that there is room for improvement!

That may very well have been it.

As a strike platform, it had the best scores at Exercise Gagan Shakti, as per AM Nambiar in an article.

Saurav Jha had also mentioned this on Twitter

Twitter link

According to AM Nambiar, AOC-in-C, Eastern Air Command, Indian Air force, the nine HAL Tejas fielded during Operation Gaganshakti had the best range scores. Yes, indigenous products can be good.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2020 05:37

TO me this part was impressive:

What is the biggest myth about Tejas?

“Before we can tackle the biggest myth, we must first acknowledge the biggest truth. It has taken long years to come, it’s true – you can see this in open sources, it’s no secret. And that leads us to answer the biggest myth about it: that it is not only too late but also less than what was asked for. Now that is a myth. The aircraft is exactly what was asked for. It is nimble, swift, light and frugal. It is also very capable of absorbing new systems for (and I stake my reputation on this) a decade and half to come. It fits right into the slot of a well-made light fighter, which can carry all sorts of heavy and heady new tech for years to come. (tech mind you <Ed: not a super heavy weapon load> as it’s still a light fighter and will always be).

Want some specifics? We’re talking about a superior new radar (either indigenous or imported), superior new missiles (both indigenous and imported), new guided munitions from both our own ODL and new radio; new and more powerful indigenous mission computers and architecture, more powerful displays. AND- the amazing leap-frogging from an air force bird to getting its wet wings! Yes, I am proud of our achievements and I refer to the Tejas Navy having very successfully demonstrated its carrier landings and take-off!

In the context of the sentence, ODL could be some new Ordnance Development Lab which is inside IAF depots. There should be an Oxford comma after ODL before the "and"!
It refers to two things new guided munitions and new radio.

One question I would have asked is how does the cockpit displays compare to Grippen?
Maybe will ask HVT!!!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jan 2020 05:56

Comparing Gripen display seems like a nonquestion to me, we are continuously evolving, at most, it will be a point-in-time comparison, which would be invalid in a few months. Plus a sortie or two during eval vs flying a platform for 250 hours present two different opinions.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2020 06:07

Kartik wrote: As a strike platform, it had the best scores at Exercise Gagan Shakti, as per AM Nambiar in an article.

Saurav Jha had also mentioned this on Twitter

Twitter link

According to AM Nambiar, AOC-in-C, Eastern Air Command, Indian Air force, the nine HAL Tejas fielded during Operation Gaganshakti had the best range scores. Yes, indigenous products can be good.

They have swept everything since then. Why do you think IAF is ready to let the Jaguars slip away with just the Darin III updates? Mk1 can do everything that a Jaguar can do and better. IAF knows this now.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jan 2020 06:11

The case for adding a new line to make 8 more Mk1A every year till MWF comes in becomes stronger by the day..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2020 06:35

Indranil wrote:A2A results should come from IAF personnel. They know what to say, and what not. The TP has told you that the aircraft belongs to the top echelon.

Oh I so wish we at least got some titbits from DACT that IAF conducted between Tejas and other types. But, given that no such concrete info will leak out, we'll have to make do with whatever the grapevine can give us.

And what Grp Cpt Rajeev Joshi said made it quite clear- small RCS, good sensors including radar and HMDS and good weapons mean you have the advantage of "first look, first kill" in air to air combat both BVR and WVR. Also going by what Dilip mentioned about how good the Elta 2032 MMR is in terms of target resolution, the Tejas does seem to a potent air to air fighter. Going forward, the Elta 2052/Astra and DASH/ASRAAM combo should make it even more lethal.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2020 06:38

From Twitter

HV Thakur's Twitter link

Mk-1A work is happening 26 hours a day. It is getting developed. Humongous resources and effort. Right now.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 28 Jan 2020 10:10

Cybaru wrote:Comparing Gripen display seems like a nonquestion to me, we are continuously evolving, at most, it will be a point-in-time comparison, which would be invalid in a few months. Plus a sortie or two during eval vs flying a platform for 250 hours present two different opinions.

Not really, IAF honchos likes Gripen's "display user interface" even though in capabelity it is nearly equal to Tejas. So any insight there would be very useful.

I have learnt from experiance that when Ramana garu askes question, it has deeper purpose & meaning.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Jan 2020 10:17

Columbians have been checking on the Tejas quite intently.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12218 ... 10080?s=19

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 28 Jan 2020 12:58

I have seen the Gripen (demo) and Tejas (true simulator) displays. Tejas is rather utilitarian. Gripen looks better/rich from the layman's angle.

But the new LAD will change all that for Mk2 and AMCA.

Here is a story. Long time ago during early days of my career, our work PCs were all monochrome text screens (that supported neat looking 80X50 text mode and lousy 4 bit grey 320X200 "graphics"). Then being the "engg guy", I got a 386 with VGA Color screen to run AutoCAD. A colleague saw this and exclaimed! "Ah! You got a Super Deluxe Colour Video Coach!!"

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Jan 2020 15:37

ashishvikas wrote:Columbians have been checking on the Tejas quite intently.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12218 ... 10080?s=19

Do you really believe Colombians will be able to buy a fighter with American engines?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Jan 2020 15:40

IR/JayS and Rakesh bhai, can you please add a summary of Mk1A differences to the 1st post. I always wonder whether there's an engine upgrade or not.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 Jan 2020 16:47

JTull wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Columbians have been checking on the Tejas quite intently.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12218 ... 10080?s=19
Do you really believe Colombians will be able to buy a fighter with American engines?

It's Colombia, not venezuela. They are closest thing to US ally in Latin America.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Jan 2020 17:02

Even more reason then. King khan (especially when lead by Trump Bahadur) will not allow the sale.

Hepters/ICFVs etc maybe but not big-ticket fixed wing fighters...

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Jan 2020 17:39

It's their backyard. Nothing will get sold into their sphere of influence without having a US corp as a prime vendor.

I'm also reluctant to sell into smaller countries in Latam who may not have the required focus on training and maintenance. Besides, HAL hasn't been spectacular with their customer support in the past.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 Jan 2020 18:42

Hey should not happen before we get our 83 + , that is some years away, and should not before we get MWF, if MWF delivery in any way will get impacted due to export (if it doesn't than why not).

Are we going to export our version of LCA or we will have an export version. Will our version of LCA once imported (the great geopolitical minds of India are very willing to sell to Malaysia, who are bumchum of TSP, what is few millions dollars for national security, huh) to foreign countries and if compromised, our own LCA gets compromised? I take that sentence back. It is not towards anyone specific, a party or anything...just the thought process, where we have been so strategically blind - support china for UNSC, ignore Israel when it can help, be holier than thou against Mayanmar (not anymore for last few years)….. ?

I don't see us working on an export version (we can barely finish our IAF version). An export version that even if compromised, does not compromise IAF LCA remotely should be the only LCA we import.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 28 Jan 2020 20:00

I think there is a comma missing after both.
That is munitions both indigenous and others, our own odl and sdr.

naird wrote:new guided munitions from both, our own ODL and new radio

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 28 Jan 2020 21:21

I would hazard a guess and say this export of LCA might be of the SPORT version. If it is presented as a LIFT, Unkil might give it a pass since it doesn't have a product specific for the category. It also might be the export version with a few tweaks since HAL is already working on the variant.
For Colombia to bomb a few contra camps, a LIFT is an ideal proposition.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2020 22:01

Actually, khan doesn't have a play on the light fighter segment (except for the last few F-16s). They would love to have the T-7 as the defacto "western" LIFT. SPORT is probably the most expensive and sophisticated LIFT out there. It is fully combat capable.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jan 2020 22:57

JTull wrote:IR/JayS and Rakesh bhai, can you please add a summary of Mk1A differences to the 1st post. I always wonder whether there's an engine upgrade or not.

Can you kindly clarify a little more on differences?

Electronics/Sensors or Dimensions/Performance?

The latter, AFAIK, is not changing.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Jan 2020 01:37

ashishvikas wrote:Columbians have been checking on the Tejas quite intently.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12218 ... 10080?s=19

It should be "Colombians". They're not from Columbia, but rather Colombia.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Jan 2020 01:38

JTull wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Columbians have been checking on the Tejas quite intently.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12218 ... 10080?s=19
Do you really believe Colombians will be able to buy a fighter with American engines?

Colombian Kfirs have even gone to Red Flag to exercise with the USAF. I think you're confusing them with Venezuela.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 29 Jan 2020 07:25

JTull wrote:IR/JayS and Rakesh bhai, can you please add a summary of Mk1A differences to the 1st post. I always wonder whether there's an engine upgrade or not.

1. The airframe remains the same. AFAIK, the flight system will be the same too. Maybe an upgraded computer. That's it.
2. New Radar
3. New mission computer and display avionics. The MFDs are same size. The equipment layout might change a bit.
4. New HUD in all likelyhood.
5. Total re-layout of the innards. Much more orderly and interchangeability/maintenance friendly. LRUs move. Cable loom organized. Piping is order of magnitude better.

The software always changes, even for Mk1. So, that goes unsaid.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jan 2020 07:35

Did they finalize on the 2052 for the radar Dileep saar?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 29 Jan 2020 08:28

Not sure if they signed the nuptial, but definitely living together

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2020 10:39

Dileep wrote:Not sure if they signed the nuptial, but definitely living together

That's hilarious!!