Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Feb 2020 03:03

Jay wrote:
dipak wrote:So, it finally appears that a fighter originally designed as a replacement for Mig-21, is equivalent to Jaguar + Mirage 2000.
Truly multirole.
I known, Right? Cannot believe how stupid it was of all those idiots calling this plane a 'three legged cheetah' and what not, when in fact they are the half-brained ones. I do not feel I need to be charitable towards that lot.

You are walking a very fine line here. You can criticize without name-calling. You are speaking of our airwarriors.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Feb 2020 09:43

Agree with Jay! Call a spade a spade. The air warriors receive accolades and our love for their bravery in battle. They should receive criticism and accept it constructively for poor decisions in acquisitions.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Feb 2020 09:44

dipak wrote:So, it finally appears that a fighter originally designed as a replacement for Mig-21, is equivalent to Jaguar + Mirage 2000.
Truly multirole.

That's why in place of re-engining th under-powered Jaguars, order new LCAs to perform its role.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Feb 2020 11:27

The 3 legged cheetah comment came because it was about the 'plane undergoing test flights' from the POV of an 'operational fighter'. Some of the comments IIRC were:

1. It can't fly without instrumentation. QED!! Those are Test Flights!!
2. It takes 20 hours of preparation between flights. QED!! Those are Test Flights!!
3. Very difficult to maintain. Need scientists!! QED!! Those are Test Flights!!

Once the daggers got them, all those complaints vanished, and they started having sorties like jackrabbits going at it during spring.

The Mk1A is going to improve upon the best! Think about it!!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Feb 2020 12:17

Vivek K wrote:Agree with Jay! Call a spade a spade. The air warriors receive accolades and our love for their bravery in battle. They should receive criticism and accept it constructively for poor decisions in acquisitions.

Criticism and name calling are two different things. Knowing the difference is important.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Feb 2020 12:22

Data point that Dileep provided earlier- the No.45 ‘Flying Daggers’ crossed the 2000 hours mark for the Tejas fleet.

Remember that the average sortie duration is normally 30 mins or so. That implies nearly 4000 Tejas Mk1 sorties within 2 years with the squadron not yet having all its 16 single seaters as yet. Clearly the availability is high and all kinks are being found out and logged to be fixed.

They’re really working up fast and it bodes very well for the future of the Tejas in IAF.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Feb 2020 14:55

I am pulling numbers out of my mush***f, Sorties should be less than 2500.

Or may dileep could state it here if its not confidential.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Feb 2020 15:06

I have a feeling and its a good feeling that IAF and 45 Squardron IOCs will go the way of Su-30Ks.
Thrash them and then move on to the next. This squadron along with the next one will be thrash their IOC and FOCs to nut out all the issues, formulate strategies and squadron tactics and then cash these second hand cars in for the Mk1A.

>> Tejas Mk1 IOC version will never become FOC at their MLU time. There will be no MLU instead new Mk1A will be ordered as replacements.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Feb 2020 15:21

RKumar wrote:I am pulling numbers out of my mush***f, Sorties should be less than 2500.

Or may dileep could state it here if its not confidential.

HAL presentation during SIATI conference clearly said "Already flown 2500 Hours of operational flying". There was no data point that gave number of sorties. General gyan is that the average sortie is less than an hour. We read somewhere that the endurance is close to one hour without IFR, so we can assume that they will plan the sortie like 45 minutes or so.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Feb 2020 15:27

Here is another data point. The airframe life is set at an extremely conservative figure. This is with the assumption that 1) we will get real performance data from these mules that are driven like hell and 2) they are building one unit for life stress testing. Once the data is available, life extension will be approved. The designers are very confident of exceeding the expectations there.

So, I would think differently about the current Mk1s. When they are close to the "specified life", they will go back, stripped down, inspected with a fine tooth comb, certified for another life term, and updated to Mk1A.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Feb 2020 18:07

Dileep sirji,

Mk1 flies Bangalore to Jaisalmer non stop without IFR and lands with fuel to spare. So, it can certainly fly for more than 2 hours without refueling. As HVT has also said, the endurance is higher at par with the Jaguars.

But world over, the single engines generally fly 45-50 minute sorties. Even the F-16s. So, yeah 2500 hours roughly translates to 3000 flights.

HAL has floated a tender for a submerged fuel pump to transfer fuel from one tank to another on the Mk1A. The service life of the pump is 10,000 hrs. That should give an indication of what they think of the life of the Mk1A series.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 02 Feb 2020 19:49

Its Feb now and we are still waiting for SP21 first flight.

HAL planned to deliver 4 FOC by next month still on track ?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Feb 2020 19:57

Indranil wrote:Dileep sirji,

Mk1 flies Bangalore to Jaisalmer non stop without IFR and lands with fuel to spare. So, it can certainly fly for more than 2 hours without refueling. As HVT has also said, the endurance is higher at par with the Jaguars.

But world over, the single engines generally fly 45-50 minute sorties. Even the F-16s. So, yeah 2500 hours roughly translates to 3000 flights.

HAL has floated a tender for a submerged fuel pump to transfer fuel from one tank to another on the Mk1A. The service life of the pump is 10,000 hrs. That should give an indication of what they think of the life of the Mk1A series.

depends in what configuration...without the configuration/loadout range is meaningless AFAIK...

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 02 Feb 2020 20:05

IAF all set for history! Know about desi fighter Tejas in #BattleCry with @ShivAroor

Now available on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/i1l-M6VebYc

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Feb 2020 20:30

Indranil wrote:Dileep sirji,

Mk1 flies Bangalore to Jaisalmer non stop without IFR and lands with fuel to spare. So, it can certainly fly for more than 2 hours without refueling. As HVT has also said, the endurance is higher at par with the Jaguars.

But world over, the single engines generally fly 45-50 minute sorties. Even the F-16s. So, yeah 2500 hours roughly translates to 3000 flights.

HAL has floated a tender for a submerged fuel pump to transfer fuel from one tank to another on the Mk1A. The service life of the pump is 10,000 hrs. That should give an indication of what they think of the life of the Mk1A series.

Of course it can!! That is ferry range. You take off clean under military power, climb nicely to high altitude and cruise. We are talking about operational sorties, which will take way more fuel. HVT did not dispute the 59 minutes figure IIRC. He said that is without IFR.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Feb 2020 00:46

Vivek K wrote:
dipak wrote:So, it finally appears that a fighter originally designed as a replacement for Mig-21, is equivalent to Jaguar + Mirage 2000.
Truly multirole.
That's why in place of re-engining th under-powered Jaguars, order new LCAs to perform its role.

Last I heard, reengine plans were out of the window. My irritation with IAF is a. Too few orders given to mk1 foc, and now b. Too few orders for mk1A. Always moving plan to some pie in sky (first mk1A and then mwf) needs to be checked. Pronto.

Cancel the mrca and order:
1 x MKI + 1 x baaz or 36 additional raffle

83 x additional mk1A

Get the mki upgrade going. And soup up the mk1A with long range Derby, which is aam Abduls meteor until astra2 comes along.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 03 Feb 2020 03:53

x-posting my question for the Gurus on this thread:

Any progress on adding missile jammer pods on the Mk1 (IOC and FOC)? IMHO they should not be sent into combat without them.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Feb 2020 05:05

Indranil wrote: Criticism and name calling are two different things. Knowing the difference is important.

Hmmm - IR - have great respect for you. Please take this as not an attempt to argue or wasting bandwidth. But 3-legged cheetah, Late Combat Aircraft sound like name calling to me. The rest is an attempt to make the case for something that is a national symbol and much bigger - a symbol of the future Indian MIC. If it falls - India in 2030 will be Rafales, MKIs and the rest of us eating grass.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 03 Feb 2020 06:23

A combat pilot (who is not at all connected to NFTC or to the development programs) have a laser focus on mission success, and he is looking for the best tools he can get. Trivial things like his own life, or a domestic development program doesn't really figure in his 'radar' (pun intended). If he is shown an aircraft, he will only think 'will it suit my mission' NOW. Tejas shown to him was not then. It had all the problems he complained about. Don't blame it on the pilot. That is the fantastic psychological drill we impart on our warriors.

Same pilot when moved to NFTC has a different mission. Here, the mission is to successfully fly the test sortie, and history shows that Tejas did exceedingly well in that department. 'Success' of a test sortie implies the test passes, or they find that elusive quirk that needs explanation.

Don't blame that pilot. We need him like that onlee

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 03 Feb 2020 10:33

Has the ink been put to paper with regards to Mk1A ?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Feb 2020 10:36

Dileep and IR garus totally agree with your viewpoints at the end of the day it is the pilot's a** on line, however, in the interest of domestic industry usage of colourful language like 3-legged something could have been avoided(not a movie for punch dialogues), just a matter of fact statement that there are certain requirement that are yet to be met for acceptance into service and this has been conveyed at appropriate forums.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Feb 2020 11:18

Dileep - hope did you conclude that the blame was being laid on the pilot? Sis that quote follow the logic. Credit and discredit must be judiciously meted out to deserving entities. That lays the foundation for an efficient system. If we only want accolades then we’re living in utopia and that is unrealistic.

The pilot in a LCA is quite satisfied - from the reports of comments of the test pilots. Cmmdr Mao and his belief in the aircraft is legendary. So which pilot are you referring to?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Feb 2020 12:39

Vivek saheb, let's stop this here. It will become bandwidth wastage on rhetorical.

Three legged cheetah was completely unwarranted. There are many other occassions like that. And we have been critical of the gents. But, calling them idiots is way below par. On second thoughts, I should have warned immediately.

So let this stop right here. Otherwise, I will have to carry out my duty.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2020 23:16

https://twitter.com/SoumyaR57322232/sta ... 64833?s=20 ----> Sir has IAF ever flown Tejas against Mirage 2000, Su-30 and MiG-29? If yes....what was it's A2A performance?

^^^^ Response to question above is the tweet below....

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12243 ... 92322?s=20 ----> It's doing a number of integrated A-A exercises in IAF. The radar is tops.
A-G is bang on.

naird · Post by **naird** » 04 Feb 2020 00:04

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SoumyaR57322232/sta ... 64833?s=20 ----> Sir has IAF ever flown Tejas against Mirage 2000, Su-30 and MiG-29? If yes....what was it's A2A performance?

^^^^ Response to question above is the tweet below....

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12243 ... 92322?s=20 ----> It's doing a number of integrated A-A exercises in IAF. The radar is tops.
A-G is bang on.

HVT is godsend. He is doing a Yeoman service. He is single handedly destroying so many myths around Tejas platform !

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Feb 2020 00:31

Khalsa wrote:Has the ink been put to paper with regards to Mk1A ?

It'll be done once the DefExpo starts

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Feb 2020 00:40

naird wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SoumyaR57322232/sta ... 64833?s=20 ----> Sir has IAF ever flown Tejas against Mirage 2000, Su-30 and MiG-29? If yes....what was it's A2A performance?

^^^^ Response to question above is the tweet below....

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12243 ... 92322?s=20 ----> It's doing a number of integrated A-A exercises in IAF. The radar is tops.
A-G is bang on.
HVT is godsend. He is doing a Yeoman service. He is single handedly destroying so many myths around Tejas platform !

+100. He truly has single handedly changed so many perceptions and destroyed so many falsehoods and myths about the Tejas. And, he is humble about it all. Some of the tweets that people put out are truly cringe worthy. But he always replies in a very dignified manner.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Feb 2020 09:18

Kartik wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Has the ink been put to paper with regards to Mk1A ?
It'll be done once the DefExpo starts

Thank you Sir.
Shiv Aroor's video was slightly pre-mature then.

All good where we waited years a few more days.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Feb 2020 15:36

HAL plans to outsource 35% of LCA manufacturing to private sector
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 922517.cms

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Feb 2020 01:42

Importantly, from HAL Chairman, R Madhavan:

IF there are additional orders put in for the Mk1A, and if the MWF does indeed get 200+ orders, a third line will be required to allow production to go up to 24 fighters per year.

HAL has put in place the infrastructure to double its capacity to produce 16 of the fighter jets every year and has a contingency plan to increase it further if the need arises. “The second (production) line has been set up. With two lines we can manage 16 a year and if really required we can put up a third line as well,” said Madhavan.

naird · Post by **naird** » 05 Feb 2020 17:23

Manu Pubby has confirmed that LCA contract will not be signed at DEFEXPO.
This sucks

nash · Post by **nash** » 05 Feb 2020 17:40

naird wrote:Manu Pubby has confirmed that LCA contract will not be signed at DEFEXPO.
This sucks

may be next financial year.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Feb 2020 00:39

The wait is excruciating. I hope HAL is not waiting for contract signing to begin its activities (think it said 3 yrs from signing to first aircraft).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 01:08

naird wrote:Manu Pubby has confirmed that LCA contract will not be signed at DEFEXPO.
This sucks

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Feb 2020 01:40

I don't want to say I told you so. The attitude is very cavalier, that too towards a project of this importance. And this cannot be laid on the door steps of politicians. It is between babus (MOD), IAF, ADA, HAL, MOF etc etc. And they are failing big time.
If you account for HVTIAF, per him HAL is working 25 hours everyday towards MK1A (very hard to believe, given history, but very welcomed change if indeed it is true). Still tooling is one thing, ordering engines (F404-1N-20), radars and other foreign parts require much more than HAL 'working' 25 hours.
This is just muddling along, an orphan that no one wants look like.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 02:09

I believe Grp Cpt HV Thakur when he says that the teams at HAL are working hard on the Mk1A. There is a lot to be done and anyone that's worked in product development will know what I'm talking about. it's easy for those who haven't to sit and crib about this and that when they're unaware of the details and the level of complexity.

But when it comes to the MoD, MoF and others who cannot sign a contract despite negotiations having been finalised, I have no sympathy for those buffoons. It is symptomatic of the red tapism and sheer lethargy that is an age old malaise that afflicts Indian procurements. Shameful.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2020 03:03

HAL is indeed doing what HVT is saying. But that is sapping in HAL's resources. Other projects are suffering. The govt. is not helping.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 04:19

A sight to behold!

2 Tejas Mk1 fighters escorting Netra AEW&C at DefExpo 2020 flypast

Livefist Twitter

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2020 05:52

agupta wrote:
Indranil wrote:HAL is indeed doing what HVT is saying. But that is sapping in HAL's resources. Other projects are suffering. The govt. is not helping.
Do you have any insights on what's suffering... is it CAPEX limits or people limits ?

Both people and funds are being moved to Mk1A to expedite that project. Consequently, other projects are suffering.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Feb 2020 05:54

Well to be fair Mk1A is priority number 1 at the moment, or should be. And it deserves extra resources. Even if other projects suffer for the time being it is ok IMHO.