The Tejas is a light multirole fighter fit for the 21st century. It uses a lot of new technology and innovation, such as its use of large amounts of composite materials, its advanced avionics system and its unique aerodynamic configuration. In terms of functionality, the LCA Tejas has good potential to be expanded into variants. For example, at a time when the air force version is yet to be commissioned widely, a ship-based version of the aircraft has already been released. The Xiaolong is a third-generation model designed for the international market. The use of off-the-shelf materials not only cuts costs but also reduces risks in the design process and improves the reliability of the aircraft. This will not make it the best aircraft, but rather a standard, cheap and reliable model for air-to-air combat. In summation, the Xiaolong is the aircraft of today and the Tejas is the aircraft of tomorrow.
nachiket wrote:Well to be fair Mk1A is priority number 1 at the moment, or should be. And it deserves extra resources. Even if other projects suffer for the time being it is ok IMHO.
The problem is that GoI won't place the order releasing money to HAL to complete the parts with high lead time. So all this has to happen on HAL's internal funds. So other HAL internal projects (some very vaunted ones) are suffering.
“Price negotiations are over. We estimate the deal to be worth around Rs 38,000 crore. We hope to sign the deal in two months. It’s an important deal for both HAL and IAF (which is battling a shortage of fighter squadrons),” Madhavan told HT at DefExpo 2020, a defence systems exhibition being attended by more than 1,000 Indian and foreign firms.
“Price negotiations are over. We estimate the deal to be worth around Rs 38,000 crore. We hope to sign the deal in two months. It’s an important deal for both HAL and IAF (which is battling a shortage of fighter squadrons),” Madhavan told HT at DefExpo 2020, a defence systems exhibition being attended by more than 1,000 Indian and foreign firms.
These negotiations are going on for couple of years. why can't they agree to buy the fighter from domestic OEM at its unit price and later they can work on support and weapon package?
The Tejas is a light multirole fighter fit for the 21st century. It uses a lot of new technology and innovation, such as its use of large amounts of composite materials, its advanced avionics system and its unique aerodynamic configuration. In terms of functionality, the LCA Tejas has good potential to be expanded into variants. For example, at a time when the air force version is yet to be commissioned widely, a ship-based version of the aircraft has already been released. The Xiaolong is a third-generation model designed for the international market. The use of off-the-shelf materials not only cuts costs but also reduces risks in the design process and improves the reliability of the aircraft. This will not make it the best aircraft, but rather a standard, cheap and reliable model for air-to-air combat. In summation, the Xiaolong is the aircraft of today and the Tejas is the aircraft of tomorrow.
it just means the Tejas is a progressively upgradable aircraft well fit to fly "into" the next decade, the chinese one is not.
May be I am wrong and don't want to believe it, however the Mk1A deal is been held hostage to GoI being serious about MMRCA 2. So far only RFI was issued and MoD has not even considered a AON.
Pretty sure MK1A was a compromise deal in return for SE MMRCA 2, which was later made to include TE. The obsession about Rafale..
Did the reporter forgot that while questioning mike should be near his mouth and while hearing the answer it should be near the other person mouth and not his ears?
Anyways, anyone with better ears, heard what was being answered
fanne wrote:Did the reporter forgot that while questioning mike should be near his mouth and while hearing the answer it should be near the other person mouth and not his ears?
Anyways, anyone with better ears, heard what was being answered
+1 Other than SP21 completed engine run, i couldnt make out anything.
That's $5 billion and some change for 83 aircraft - almost $60 million a plane. This has to include some support package and weapon, unless if rumors are true, 70% of LCA by value is still imported (and we own the design and IP, BUT NOT THE FINAL Component). Barring few items that we cannot produce (e.g. engines), we should look to indigenize all of it (we can perhaps overlook the radar, RWR and BVR/Short range missile for 83 order -in favor of 2052).
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 16704?s=19 ---> Mk-1A is completely on track. Those who understand the DPP, know that there's about 4 months of mutual work left before contact signing. IAF & MoD are completely on board.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 72961?s=19 ---> No government contracts ever get signed during such exhibitions. These expos are for NDAs, MoUs & forming JVs etc. Mk-1A CNC is on. After a few rounds, in which draft contract is negotiated/amended, CCS will be approached for approval. Then, contract will be signed. Process.
Last edited by ashishvikas on 06 Feb 2020 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
ashishvikas wrote: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 16704?s=19 ---> Mk-1A is completely on track. Those who understand the DPP, know that there's about 4 months of mutual work left before contact signing. IAF & MoD are completely on board.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12254 ... 72961?s=19 ---> No government contracts ever get signed during such exhibitions. These expos are for NDAs, MoUs & forming JVs etc. Mk-1A CNC is on. After a few rounds, in which draft contract is negotiated/amended, CCS will be approached for approval. Then, contract will be signed. Process.
And that should end all ambiguity and head scratching. I was also worried. Relieved to hear this from HVT Sir.
Prem Kumar wrote:A noob pooch: where is the MK1A order stuck? Is it stuck with the MoD, MoF or the IAF?
AoN completed. Price negotiations completed. So IAF is out of the picture now.
So I guess the situation now is that the govt. opened its vaults to take out the money for the deal, saw only rats and roaches there and is now looking sheepishly at the IAF and HAL with empty hands.
fanne wrote:That's $5 billion and some change for 83 aircraft - almost $60 million a plane. This has to include some support package and weapon, unless if rumors are true, 70% of LCA by value is still imported (and we own the design and IP, BUT NOT THE FINAL Component). Barring few items that we cannot produce (e.g. engines), we should look to indigenize all of it (we can perhaps overlook the radar, RWR and BVR/Short range missile for 83 order -in favor of 2052).
fanne wrote:Did the reporter forgot that while questioning mike should be near his mouth and while hearing the answer it should be near the other person mouth and not his ears?
Anyways, anyone with better ears, heard what was being answered
+1 Other than SP21 completed engine run, i couldnt make out anything.
SP-21 should have it's first flight within a week or 10 days. Performance EGR completed
SP-22, 23 and 24 are in final equipping stage and will be ready by March 31, 2020.
Based on the IOC jets production, lot of improvements have been brought in the assembly cycle time, which is helping build FOC jets in shorter time.
Propulsion and radar are generally the most expensive systems on a fighter though modern EW systems are fast overtaking them in some applications. I believe the F-404 should be in the $4-5 Million mark (414 wouldn’t cost much different).
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Feb 2020 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
I hope we become independent of radars by the time MWF rolls around (and update of 40 IOC,FOC Tejas). We would need radar (Uttam), EW package (that goes with that radar - has to be our effort, cannot be imported) and BVR missiles (Astra, SFDR integrated with Uttam). All three go hand in hand, one cannot mix and match these from different sources. We have 3-5 years to master all 3.
Last item to be licked is the engine, masallah, that will be done some day as well.
Ah, sorry saw the article that mentioned that now.
$5.4 billion should include spares, simulators, ground support equipment, mission planning and mission debrief software, additional facilities for overhauling and maintaining the type at HAL Bangalore and who knows, possibly a PBL kind of agreement as well. Still the most affordable fighter for the IAF in the current scenario. I somehow don't think this will include any of the costs associated with contracts for weapons.
And we saw how the Opposition, which is turning out to excellent at propaganda, drummed up the fake news of a Rafale scam and caused a huge controversy to erupt where none should've existed in the first place.
In many other procurements, the current GoI has nixed imports in favor of local products. And as we now find out, the Mk1A contract is stuck simply because the process is convoluted and probably has a 1000 steps to be followed before signature. I wouldn't put it past the people at MoD and HAL to drag it out even longer than 4 months for contract signature.
Meanwhile, Mk1A development activities will continue at HAL, however contracts for long lead items will not be placed. And the hourglass of 36 months from contract signature for first delivery will only be turned on when the deal is actually signed, possibly by June-July 2020. So MoD is pushing the first Mk1A delivery out to mid to late 2023 or even early 2024, since HAL almost never manages to stick to deadlines.
Apr 2019 to Mar 2020- 4 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2020 to Mar 2021- 12 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2021 to Mar 2022- 16 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers
Apr 2022 to Mar 2023- 2 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers + manufacture & assembly of 14 Tejas Mk1A airframes (not to be delivered since Mk1A won't even have flown by then)
Apr 2023 to Mar 2024- Assembly of 16 Tejas Mk1A (not to be delivered since Mk1A won't have achieved IOC by then)
Apr 2025 to Mar 2026- Delivery of 14 Tejas Mk1A (built in 2022-23) and 16 Tejas Mk1A (built in 2023-24)+ manufacture and delivery of 16 Tejas Mk1A. I doubt this since the IAF won't be able to accept that many in 1 calender year
Apr 2026 to Mar 2027- Delivery of 16 Tejas Mk1A
Apr 2028 to Mar 2029- Delivery of 11 Tejas Mk1A completes 73 Mk1A single seater deliveries + manufacture & assembly of 5 or more MWF fighters
Now this is where a problem may emerge- the Tejas Mk1A first flight is tentatively likely in early 2023 as per HVT. Assuming a flight test program of 1 year (which is very short and probably very optimistic), HAL cannot deliver any Tejas Mk1A fighters during the year without them being certified at IOC level. We may see a backlog of 30 built Mk1A fighters, since the airframe structure is almost the same and while innards will change, HAL cannot wait for the IOC to be reached for production to be started.
MoD and HAL have probably successfully delayed the entire delivery with their endless negotiations.
Only way to improve this is to have HAL add another line for more Mk1A fighters so that 20 or 24 Mk1As can be built per year. Otherwise, they'll have delayed MWF production timelines too (assuming MWF assembly line is set up on the existing Tejas assembly line).
Apr 2019 to Mar 2020- 4 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2020 to Mar 2021- 12 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2021 to Mar 2022- 16 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers
Apr 2022 to Mar 2023- 2 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers + manufacture & assembly of 14 Tejas Mk1A airframes (not to be delivered since Mk1A won't even have flown by then)
Apr 2023 to Mar 2024- Assembly of 16 Tejas Mk1A (not to be delivered since Mk1A won't have achieved IOC by then)
Apr 2025 to Mar 2026- Delivery of 14 Tejas Mk1A (built in 2022-23) and 16 Tejas Mk1A (built in 2023-24)+ manufacture of 16 Tejas Mk1A. IOC would be reached by this year to allow deliveries to start flowing
Apr 2026 to Mar 2027- Delivery of 16 Tejas Mk1A (built in 2025-26) and manufacture of 16 Mk1A
Apr 2028 to Mar 2029- Delivery of 16 Mk1A (built in 2026-27) and manufacture and delivery of 11 Tejas Mk1A completes 73 Mk1A single seater deliveries + manufacture & assembly of 5 or more MWF fighters
Looking at this delivery timeline that I posted, I just realised with a sinking feeling that after the second squadron is set up in 2020 and receives it's full complement of 16 single seaters by March 2021, there will not be a SINGLE new Tejas squadron till the Mk1A is certified to IOC standard. And that won't happen till sometime between Apr 2024- Mar 2025.
basically, we won't see any new Tejas squadron added for 4 years. Please feel free to correct me if my entire premise is wrong.
Kartik wrote:Apr 2019 to Mar 2020- 4 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2020 to Mar 2021- 12 Tejas Mk1 FOC
Apr 2021 to Mar 2022- 16 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers
Apr 2022 to Mar 2023- 2 Tejas Mk1 FOC Trainers + manufacture & assembly of 14 Tejas Mk1A airframes (not to be delivered since Mk1A won't even have flown by then)
I don't think HAL can manufacture 16 Trainers in parallel, apparently zigs may be different.. Neither IAF may be interested in getting all 16 trainers in a year.
And in all probability 16 FOC wouldn't be ready by March-21.. neither 4 FOC by March-20. (Happiest person if HAL proves me wrong)
The CMD of the public sector giant, on being asked if his company could make 20 Tejas per annum, said “easily”. He said ramping up production is not a big issue. The production line is fixed as per the number of order. As of now we have only 40 Tejas on order. Once we get the order of the next 83 Tejas Mark-1A jets, we are geared up to make 16 planes and ramp it up to 20 per year.
The production speed depends upon the size of the order. Setting up a new line costs Rs 1,500 crore. With ramped up production, we can do the 83 Tejas Mark 1A jets within four years.
With ramped up production, we can do the 83 Tejas Mark 1A jets within four years.
HAL should not make such statement. Any production run needs ramp up and ramp down. The arithmetic is not 1st standard level in case of production. From current situation, Min 6-7yrs production run with 20/yr and min 5yrs with 24/yr needed for order of 83. Even if HAL does not take ramp down, still it will shave off max 1yr from these timelines. I am not considering the 10 trainers separate for simplicity here.
Even if HAL could hit 20-24/yr rate with MK1 production (which is impossible given only 16 on order), HAL could not start off with Mk1A with the same rate immediately. Every change in the production causes disruption and it will introduce some gaps and a ramp up would be needed to get back to the same rate.
I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.
JayS wrote:HAL seems to be working full throttle on it.
Generally an aircraft manufacturer does not make aircraft without an order. Even LM with a couple of thousand F35 ensured, waits for an order before production. The US does have a system of separate orders for long lead time equipment.
HAL has stated clearly that the Mk1A will be 3 years from order, which is in line with pretty much most aircraft manufacturers (see also Rafale).
JayS wrote:ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.
ADA is not a production agency.
Last edited by Rakesh on 10 Feb 2020 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Please use quotes when replying to posts, as indicated above
The deal was earlier expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crore but it had turned out to cheaper as the air force had reduced its requirements for spares and support facilities for the fighter jets, said the HAL chief.
JayS wrote:I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.
Even I didn’t understand why it would take 3 years to upgrade an existing Tejas LSP to Mk1A standard and fly it for the first time. Earlier they were saying 2021 for first flight.
It really raises some very uncomfortable questions on HAL’s ability to undertake any major program. Asking for the TEDBF and ORCA on its own seems very far fetched when they cannot even seem to upgrade a fighter they’re currently building within a reasonable timeframe.
JayS wrote:I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.
Even I didn’t understand why it would take 3 years to upgrade an existing Tejas LSP to Mk1A standard and fly it for the first time. Earlier they were saying 2021 for first flight.
It really raises some very uncomfortable questions on HAL’s ability to undertake any major program. Asking for the TEDBF and ORCA on its own seems very far fetched when they cannot even seem to upgrade a fighter they’re currently building within a reasonable timeframe.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1226663536811597824 ---> With a heady mix of some of the most modern Air-to-Air missiles, AESA radar & AESA based jamming systems, LCA Mk-1A is poised to disrupt the air battle with its new paradigm.
