Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 09 Feb 2020 14:17

20 Tejas a year possible: HAL Chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/20-tejas-a-year-possible-hal-chief-37648

Guess that answers a lot of questions !!

The CMD of the public sector giant, on being asked if his company could make 20 Tejas per annum, said “easily”. He said ramping up production is not a big issue. The production line is fixed as per the number of order. As of now we have only 40 Tejas on order. Once we get the order of the next 83 Tejas Mark-1A jets, we are geared up to make 16 planes and ramp it up to 20 per year.

The production speed depends upon the size of the order. Setting up a new line costs Rs 1,500 crore. With ramped up production, we can do the 83 Tejas Mark 1A jets within four years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2020 18:10

With ramped up production, we can do the 83 Tejas Mark 1A jets within four years.


HAL should not make such statement. Any production run needs ramp up and ramp down. The arithmetic is not 1st standard level in case of production. From current situation, Min 6-7yrs production run with 20/yr and min 5yrs with 24/yr needed for order of 83. Even if HAL does not take ramp down, still it will shave off max 1yr from these timelines. I am not considering the 10 trainers separate for simplicity here.

Even if HAL could hit 20-24/yr rate with MK1 production (which is impossible given only 16 on order), HAL could not start off with Mk1A with the same rate immediately. Every change in the production causes disruption and it will introduce some gaps and a ramp up would be needed to get back to the same rate.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2020 18:21

I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 09 Feb 2020 20:19

JayS wrote:HAL seems to be working full throttle on it.

Generally an aircraft manufacturer does not make aircraft without an order. Even LM with a couple of thousand F35 ensured, waits for an order before production. The US does have a system of separate orders for long lead time equipment.

HAL has stated clearly that the Mk1A will be 3 years from order, which is in line with pretty much most aircraft manufacturers (see also Rafale).

JayS wrote:ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.

ADA is not a production agency.
Last edited by Rakesh on 10 Feb 2020 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please use quotes when replying to posts, as indicated above

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2020 01:13

Working on Rs 38,000-crore deal to sell 83 jets to IAF, says HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... XekRI.html

The deal was earlier expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crore but it had turned out to cheaper as the air force had reduced its requirements for spares and support facilities for the fighter jets, said the HAL chief.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 10 Feb 2020 01:45

JayS wrote:I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.

Even I didn’t understand why it would take 3 years to upgrade an existing Tejas LSP to Mk1A standard and fly it for the first time. Earlier they were saying 2021 for first flight.

It really raises some very uncomfortable questions on HAL’s ability to undertake any major program. Asking for the TEDBF and ORCA on its own seems very far fetched when they cannot even seem to upgrade a fighter they’re currently building within a reasonable timeframe.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sivab » 10 Feb 2020 07:54

Kartik wrote:
JayS wrote:I frankly do not understand why HAL would need so much time for MK1A first flight. It should have been in 2021 latest, not 2023. The plan is in place since 2016. HAL seems to be working full throttle on it. Then why 7yrs for a relatively small change in MK1..?? ADA will go from MK1 to MWF in roughly the same timeframe.

Even I didn’t understand why it would take 3 years to upgrade an existing Tejas LSP to Mk1A standard and fly it for the first time. Earlier they were saying 2021 for first flight.

It really raises some very uncomfortable questions on HAL’s ability to undertake any major program. Asking for the TEDBF and ORCA on its own seems very far fetched when they cannot even seem to upgrade a fighter they’re currently building within a reasonable timeframe.


2023 is for SP41. LSP changes will fly earlier.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1226674016158539777

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to
@kartachar
SP-41.
IOC will progress on prototypes.
Simultaneous.
No breaks in deliveries
.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sivab » 10 Feb 2020 07:57

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1226663536811597824 ---> With a heady mix of some of the most modern Air-to-Air missiles, AESA radar & AESA based jamming systems, LCA Mk-1A is poised to disrupt the air battle with its new paradigm.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Feb 2020 08:36

Is that wingtip ccm or dual outboard pylon?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 10 Feb 2020 08:46

dual outboard pylon.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2020 21:51

That is an amazing pic art and good info.

Looks like I will have to start a new Mk1A thread, with that as the backdrop in the first post :mrgreen:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Sumeet » 10 Feb 2020 23:10

Cool so we are catching up nicely with brochure baazi and marketing.

I like that poster with highlighted buzzwords. Wish if they could have added list of A-G weapons.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 10 Feb 2020 23:42

Sumeet wrote:Cool so we are catching up nicely with brochure baazi and marketing.

I like that poster with highlighted buzzwords. Wish if they could have added list of A-G weapons.


funny! :)

Anyhoo - Kartik clarified with HVT on first flight of MK1A.

Handover of SP41 in 2023
First Flight much earlier..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Feb 2020 00:30

Rakesh wrote:That is an amazing pic art and good info.

Looks like I will have to start a new Mk1A thread, with that as the backdrop in the first post :mrgreen:

+1. I'm not sure why only 83 have been ordered. These birds are THE perfect replacement for mig 21 and 27. An order of 200 should be a given. Order piecemeal and then complain about shortfall, this is getting to be a real crappy habit.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Feb 2020 01:18

Sumeet wrote:Cool so we are catching up nicely with brochure baazi and marketing.

I like that poster with highlighted buzzwords. Wish if they could have added list of A-G weapons.


Yes! the improvement is visible there. I had always wondered how come such smart people couldn't understand the value of smartly made marketing brochures. The explanation always was that their captive customer, the Indian Armed Services didn't really care much for it and that the PSUs were not focused on such things. But with exports becoming a key goal for indigenous products, this is an area where improvements are absolutely required. You need to present info well, because perception matters.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Feb 2020 01:23

Cybaru wrote:
Sumeet wrote:Cool so we are catching up nicely with brochure baazi and marketing.

I like that poster with highlighted buzzwords. Wish if they could have added list of A-G weapons.


funny! :)

Anyhoo - Kartik clarified with HVT on first flight of MK1A.

Handover of SP41 in 2023
First Flight much earlier..


Yes, that one tweet made my day. I had so much heartburn over the past couple of days wondering why HAL would need 3 years to get a LSP modified and flown with the Mk1A suite for the first time. Turns out, that SP-41 (the first serial produced Mk1A) will fly in 2023; so 36 months from signature of the contract for the Mk1A. My guess would be third quarter 2023 first flight for SP-41, if the contract is signed by June 2020.

Earlier reports had indicated that the first upgraded LSP with the Mk1A suite would fly for the first time in 2021. Seems that was correct.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 11 Feb 2020 02:03

So there would not be any gap in production as such, presuming 2020/2021/2022 cover second squadron and trainers(16 in numbers?)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 11 Feb 2020 02:16

Kartik wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
funny! :)

Anyhoo - Kartik clarified with HVT on first flight of MK1A.

Handover of SP41 in 2023
First Flight much earlier..


Yes, that one tweet made my day. I had so much heartburn over the past couple of days wondering why HAL would need 3 years to get a LSP modified and flown with the Mk1A suite for the first time. Turns out, that SP-41 (the first serial produced Mk1A) will fly in 2023; so 36 months from signature of the contract for the Mk1A. My guess would be third quarter 2023 first flight for SP-41, if the contract is signed by June 2020.

Earlier reports had indicated that the first upgraded LSP with the Mk1A suite would fly for the first time in 2021. Seems that was correct.


And just for the moment, LCAMK1A concept was mooted 3 years ago, LCA FOC completed last year, this thing could have been started from 3 years ago to at least a year ago (like after FOC, last Feb, the most logical thing was to work on MK1A, right then and there). This would have definitely speeded things.
Saying that anyways, we will complete MK1A by 2023 in any PV/LSP model, before SP-41 is rolled out - this argument does not cut it. Why not start it in 2019 and complete it by say 2021. Maybe we can have used the time between 2021 to 2023 for further upgrade of MK1A -LAD etc, maybe.
A readymade MK1A flying now or in 2021, imagine what it could do to MMCRA. If it was as good as we think it is (not on paper but the real thing), maybe, just maybe, IAF may have been tempted to drop MMCRA in favor of LCA MK1A and later MWF.
Reasons are simple - perhaps there was no budget, or same team was focused on LCA navy or lack of focus or central ownership or whatever. But this effort can use some better management and direction (including funds, priorities, redundancy in man power etc.)
The associated projects - Uttam, SFDR, Uttam/2052 integration with Astra, Kaveri, all are languishing, or just going on with slower speed and purpose. We are at a very important cross road, become a aviation power in our own right, and these slip ups is not helping.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 11 Feb 2020 03:02

And just for the moment, LCAMK1A concept was mooted 3 years ago, LCA FOC completed last year, this thing could have been started from 3 years ago to at least a year ago (like after FOC, last Feb, the most logical thing was to work on MK1A, right then and there). This would have definitely speeded things.

Fanne ji - am not sure why you think enough design work has not been done till date on the MK1A. The fact that they can promise a 2023 date is because most of the design work is done and things need to be tried out and finetuned before you even think about an IOC. FYI, DAC had accepted the proposal for MK1A late 2017/early 2018, now post that am pretty sure HAL/ADA would have completed the full design work on the following (speaking as a lay man here);

1. Wiring harness analysis and relayout - here they should have looked at all change requests that sqn 45 base ops has filed, what design team has put in as general improvements, what the manufacturing team at HAL has put in towards improvements . This is a massive exercise and to finalize the list may take at least a year. Following this, they would have a list of change request that would have been accepted and then time-lining happens with engineering managers and then hustling/wrangling happens. If all of this goes smooth then they need to update drawings for proto trials only ground level electrical testing nothing much. This process for an aircraft can take at least a couple of years, it takes a year in car using CATIA so you can imagine

2. LRU changes and rearrangement in real estate

3. Overall subsystem specification changes to accommodate the LRUs and wiring harness changes

4. so on

If they pull SP41 with the specs that they promised in 2023 it would be extremely commendation worthy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Feb 2020 06:11

suryag wrote:So there would not be any gap in production as such, presuming 2020/2021/2022 cover second squadron and trainers(16 in numbers?)


Yes, after the 18 (4 IOC contract + 4 FOC contract + 10 Mk1A contract) Trainers (all at FOC level) are produced and delivered to the IAF, then production would switch to the Mk1A.

Earlier it seemed that it would have needed a lot of concurrent engineering, with software/hardware being tested on prototypes and concurrently producing series production fighters on the line. But now, with 2021 being the likely year for first flight, at least a year's worth of testing can be conducted and possibly IOC can be achieved before SP-41 rolls out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 11 Feb 2020 08:16

>>The explanation always was that their captive customer, the Indian Armed Services didn't really care much for brochures

Yup!! They care for phoren shiny brochures onlee.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 11 Feb 2020 09:31

Suryag Ji, I unfortunately do not have any inside info (and leaks through media is only negative). What you could say may well be true. But LCA FOC to LCA MK1A was supposed to be a quick upgrade (essentially the same plane, radar is different, different LRU lay out, refueling and spj - some of it covered in FOC). Quick not equal to 5-8 years. 2015 was the year MK1A was mooted, and we get the plane operational in 2023, that is 8 long years (more time than proposed MWF timeline) for a very nominal (yet potent) upgrade. It could have been done in half time (just a armchair warrior guess). I am expressing my unhappiness there. And worst news, whatever is delaying MK1A (or LCA in general), will delay MWF, TEDBF, AMCA...if we do not fix it.
In this case, the culprit was not technology denial or even tech maturity. 2052 AND 8222 were available in 2015, refueling though vastly delayed were done by 2018 (and do not know about LRU rationalization). There is no need for this plane in 2020 to not exist as a paper plane and not a real one. Something is wrong somewhere, no idea really what, but speculating, no central agency pushing it. There should be a driver....and there is none

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 11 Feb 2020 16:53

Fanne sahab, no need to hyperventilate. If you put half the efforts you put in writing these long posts, in tracking tenders or asking question to HVT on teeter, you would know better and have more peace of mind. Mk1A has a overhauled DFCC with elements from MWF bring it to at par with MWF, done mostly. A huge upgrade. Req was spelled out for SMFD instead of MFD ages ago, looks small change but a lot will happen behind the panels (we had a discussion on it here some time back). A full scale testing rig for entire aviation suite testing and verification is in making. 2052 integration going on in parallel. Uttam progressing. I'm sure many more activities are underway like weight optimization, LRU layout reconfiguration etc.

First flight of prototype in 2023 was perplexing. First flight on SP41 in 2023 is a great news. Till March 2021, SP21-36 will be produced. We can expect some gap for first trainer to come thereafter. Last trainer will come out by say late 2022. Then some more gap and SP41 flies in 2023 sometime. No break in production. Great news.

And BTW no amount of work on Mk1A was ever going to cancel MMRCA 2.0. Only MWF could conclusively burry it.


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Feb 2020 05:37

February is half over now. I doubt that HAL will be able to deliver the 4 Mk1FOC by the end of fiscal year (March 31), as Indranil Saheb had said. The first one hasn't flown yet.

They may end up doing an accounting gimmick by transferring 4 units on paper to the IAF by March 31st, and then taking them back for 'finishing' before actual delivery.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2020 07:43

Delivery of 4 was not possible. First flight of the first 4 was targeted. I don't know if that will be achieved either. Frankly, I don't know what is holding up the first flight of SP21.it can happen tomorrow for all we know. SP22 must have finished equipping as well. I expect SP22 and SP21 to take to the air in quick succession.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Feb 2020 08:11

Indranil wrote:Delivery of 4 was not possible. First flight of the first 4 was targeted. I don't know if that will be achieved either. Frankly, I don't know what is holding up the first flight of SP21.it can happen tomorrow for all we know. SP22 must have finished equipping as well. I expect SP22 and SP21 to take to the air in quick succession.


At the moment, how long one takes in Equipping ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2020 09:17

I dont know. They want to stabilize at 30 days or less.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Feb 2020 10:26



Good News, I hoep the invest in facilities and start producing atleast 24 aircraft a year, hopefully make a follow on order so that by the time MWF, TEDBF and then AMCA a proper production and testign ecosystem with adequate war time spares is developed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Feb 2020 10:59

Is the TOI news by Rajat Pandit any new milestone or just him regurgitating old information? The takeaway for me was that:

1) CCS will give final approval by March 31
2) Contract needs to be inked (don't know by what deadline)
3) HAL will deliver starting 3 years from contract signature

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Feb 2020 12:42

Indranil wrote:I dont know. They want to stabilize at 30 days or less.


One more question - at the moment, how many planes can go in final equipping stage in parallel ? 1/2/3/4 ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 17 Feb 2020 13:05


This year long or more duration bureaucratic financial wrangling between MoD IAF and MoD HAL is absolutely unnecessary in today's time. This is a prime area for PM & RM to set right.

There is no right or wrong here. HAL makes early investments in 2052 radar, EW fit integration and HTT-40 and expects a deal to cover those expenses.

The critical thing now is Mk1 Trainer FOC that will include mid air refueling so that a trainer production order can be placed in between Mk1 FOC and 83 Mk1A singer seaters.

I believe more trainers are needed beyond 2 PV and 8 Mk1 FOC trainers.

Added later - apologies for any typos from my smudged mobile screen

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Feb 2020 13:17

As per Earlier Media reports of the Mk1A 83 order will include 10 Trainers at FOC standard.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bhaskar_T » 17 Feb 2020 20:43

Would you believe it? :D :lol: Nationalist Kangana Ranaut featuring as Tejas pilot in movie Tejas being produced by Ronnie Screwala, directed by Sarvesh Mewara. Release in April 2021.

Jingo khush hua. :twisted: Unfolds Lungi. 8)

Aiyyo. Both Tejas and the Pilot look hot. :mrgreen: For a change, it's good, no Akshay Kumar. :rotfl:

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Nikhil T » 19 Feb 2020 02:25

Prem Kumar wrote:Is the TOI news by Rajat Pandit any new milestone or just him regurgitating old information? The takeaway for me was that:

1) CCS will give final approval by March 31
2) Contract needs to be inked (don't know by what deadline)
3) HAL will deliver starting 3 years from contract signature


Correct, no new info. Even the lower price achieved via negotiations was reported in Dec.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 19 Feb 2020 03:37

Jane's is reporting the conclusion of negotiations between HAL and MoD over the 83 Tejas Mk1A contract. Rahul Bedi is definitely better than Rajat Pandit when it comes to reporting, although he too has his bias. No new info, but generally seems to confirm the ToI report.

Indian MoD concludes price negotiations with HAL for 83 LCA Mk1A


India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has concluded negotiations with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to acquire 83 indigenously developed Tejas Light combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk 1A for the Indian Air Force (IAF) for INR390 billion (USD5.45 billion).

Official sources told Jane's on 18 February that the deal for the upgraded single-engined fighters is expected to be signed before the end of fiscal year 2019/20 (FY 2019/20) following approval of the procurement from the Cabinet Committee on Security, which is headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Deliveries of the LCA Mk 1A, which is still under development and will be powered by a General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine generating 80-85 kN of thrust, are expected to begin within 36 months of the contract being signed, said IAF sources.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 04:46

How did the price go down to Rs 390 Billion?
What is the story?
What is omitted?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 19 Feb 2020 06:07

Sir one of the news articles mentioned that one of the measures taken was to prevent HAL from applying profit margins on items they themselves bought from outside. It would be good to have HAL account for shipping and handling but trying to make a profit on a full item that they bought is not welcome. Again we dont know how much of this is true

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 19 Feb 2020 06:38

one of the measures taken was to prevent HAL f


https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/06/29/why ... t-is-high/

Above mentioned it. Part of hal transitioning from manufacturer to system integrator and still trying to remain profitable. While viability is important, this was an obvious place to cut and presumably it got cut. Important is to have the right final cost model for system integrator way of working going forward. What it is , I don't know

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby yensoy » 19 Feb 2020 09:35

For commercial aircraft deals, the highest value items in the aeroplane which are the engines are negotiated separately with the engine OEM. Such a strategy should have been used for Tejas as well, so HAL isn't on the hook for engine procurement, delays, forex hedging; and engines are purchased directly by GoI or by G2G and handed over to HAL for integration.


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