Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Bharadwaj
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Bharadwaj »

^^^^^
No that easy. Someone in the know can clarify but I believe every foc point(already proven in flight testing) will have to be demonstrated before delivery.
JayS
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^
No that easy. Someone in the know can clarify but I believe every foc point(already proven in flight testing) will have to be demonstrated before delivery.
Nope, only basic OEM level taxi runs and flights followed by User Acceptance flights. 6-8 flights in all give or take some.
ramana
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

There was a reason why Mil Forum has a thread called Design your own Fighter jet or something like that.

Adding all those options to LCA with its relaxed stability is hard.
Needs a lot of flight qualifications.

As for the CFT do consider the drag, empty weight effects on the engine thrust and flight characteristics.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

I think we should leave mk1a - light. Mk -2 is coming and it will have longer legs and payload. There is need for both. First is a cheaper fighter, small form (can fit in existing forward Mig 21 size pens), low operational foot print and fast turn around. It is good for quick scramble, CAP over own air space (and can hold over enemy air), large number, can attack near targets etc etc. Trying to add all that extra increases the cost, size, complexity and all of that extra will perhaps be only used 10% of the time, the current form is sufficient for 90% of the mission it will have. For that extra 10%, we will have mk-2, rafale, SU30MKI, AMCA, JAgs, Mig 29. But none of these planes can do what the current LCA can do - be cheap, light, small, forward deployed etc etc.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Vamsee »

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf

SP-21 ground runs are happening. It'll take to the air, when everything is in order.
Kartik
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

HAL won't be able to meet the 4 Tejas FOC jets' target before March 31 at this rate. I can't believe that as recently as Def Expo, an HAL official responsible for the Tejas assembly line was confident that all 4 would be flown by March end. Clearly, something else is holding up the first flight but no one is telling what.
Indranil
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

They are lined up. They will fly in very quick succession. Right now the expectation is that 21 and 22 will fly before the end of this month.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Indranil wrote:They are lined up. They will fly in very quick succession. Right now the expectation is that 21 and 22 will fly before the end of this month.
If you can communicate to them, tell them don't announce deadlines and not meet them.
Instead just do it.
Will be good for credibility.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:They are lined up. They will fly in very quick succession. Right now the expectation is that 21 and 22 will fly before the end of this month.
But what is holding them up? I haven't been able to figure out what it is and why it cannot be disclosed. Anantha Krishnan said the same, HVT is mum on it..In an atmosphere where so much of expectation is there from HAL to deliver on time, missing timelines repeatedly does not inspire confidence.
Indranil
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

ramana wrote:
Indranil wrote:They are lined up. They will fly in very quick succession. Right now the expectation is that 21 and 22 will fly before the end of this month.
If you can communicate to them, tell them don't announce deadlines and not meet them.
Instead just do it.
Will be good for credibility.
Ramana sir, under what authority should I advice them? Everybody all the way up to the ACM is in the know.

It is not something serious. They are trying something new. Large parts are being built outside of HAL and assembled at HAL.

These are teething problems of first production. The entire pipeline is chugging behind them. IOC first aircraft also had a teething problem. That did not affect the delivery schedule beyond the first few aircrafts.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Khalsa »

Funny but I am agreeing with everyone. While they are possibly working out their production methods and fine tuning for Mk1A with the FOC birds I can't help but agree with the credibility point.

We at BR are small band of fighters who with analysis, discussion and open source keep on doing our bit to bring down all the lifafa articles being pushed by the import lobby and generally winning the minds of our populace with promises and targets of tomorrow. Its only natural that we expect the dream delivery machine to be predictable in this unpredictable world.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

First Article will always have teething problems. Thats why it doesn't make sense to constantly keep changing specs with small orders.
Indranil
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

I think we should learn to make a difference between our serial production and that of the west. It is apples and oranges. The assumption without knowledge here is that the problem must be with HAL!!!

Serial production order for IOC Tejas was 20. Serial production orders for FOC Tejas was 20. They were placed years apart. Serial production orders for Mk1A is 83 and not placed yet. Parts production for Mk1A has already started though.

Also, our industry is not mature yet. This FOC order is the first time where HAL has broken down its own manufacturing design into large sub assemblies to be produced by other sub-assemblies. It is a learning for HAL. Until now, HAL got the parts as CKD/SKD and assembled them. These manufacturers themselves are new in building such large subassemblies.

People who are authorized to release information have told us that the EGRs are underway. If we understand what has to go together for EGRs to continue, then we can understand that the problem is with the manufacturing of a part. Until the part checks out, necessary changes made at the manufacturing side to ensure all subsequent parts match the requirement, clearance will not be given for first flight.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Very true the order qtys are so low and far apart to benefit from learning curve effects.
Either naive or mendacious procurement system.
Yesterday LMT delivered the 500th F 35 and it still has issues.
Don't see USAF saying not this, not this!!!

India can say that as import option is always there.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by nam »

11096 crores spend on LCA & Kaveri so far. 1.8 billion over 30+ years to develop a 4 Gen fighter & engine.

Less than 2 billion we paid for Rafale's India Specific enhancements.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

every Billion spend in the country buys far more than from outside, only thing is non lapsable funds should be made available for the work to keep going on and a strategic planning for acquisitions of tech and hardware in place, India sorely needs an agency similar to DARPA which could advise the CDS in matters relating to futuristic technologies.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Vivek K »

Second IR and Ramana. There is no substitute to learning things the hard way. No one complained when India paid 100% advance for MKIs in 1996 or so when the first deliveries of the MKIs started way behind schedule. With paltry orders, we expect fine tuned western style industrial setups - it takes time and money. Like IR explained this is the difference between screwdrivergiri and developing a local MIC.

And like IR pointed out - no one is complaining (or appreciating) when IAF/GOI haven't yet signed off on the 83 MK1As while their sub-system production has already started. So what if SPs are delayed 30 days? EGR i think is Engine Ground run. IAF is in the loop and is probably appreciative of the changes in the production set up that will allow the lines to be more efficient.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Agupta sahab,

All I will say is rhetoric. You are asking why can't HAL work like Western OEM? I tried to answer those very question. But, you said but HAL has done screwdrivergiri for so long! That's exactly what I said, HAL knows to do screwdrivergiri very well. And I am a very vocal critic of it. However, when I extend the same criticism to Reliance/Adani, suddenly many feel private screwdrivergiri is different.

What HAL is doing with Tejas is NOT screwdrivergiri! And this is green field for it. And I support it through it's pains. I have the same support for any private company which is developing design capability. And that's why I am supporting every sub-assembly producer as well.

By the way, the JAguar upgrades, Mig-27 upgrades were not screwdrivergiri if you know what went into it. The Mirage 2000 upgrade was. Besides the capabilities it brings to IAF, it is utterly useless to the design and manufacturing capability of India.

And by the way, this lackadaisical approach to timelines is countrywide. ISRO (which most respect highly) has been ready to launch SSLV in upcoming months for the last few years. I still support them, because they are learning. They are building capability where none exists, using peanuts as grants. I will be surprised if they can launch in the next 6 months, because I am seeing tenders for building its assembly structure. This is how work in done in India. Without lying about timelines, you won't even get the funding you need today. Every program manager knows this. If you have a problem with this, wait for the system and the society to change. Don't expect HAL to change in isolation because it will not have any funds.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:Agupta sahab,

By the way, the JAguar upgrades, Mig-27 upgrades were not screwdrivergiri if you know what went into it. The Mirage 2000 upgrade was. Besides the capabilities it brings to IAF, it is utterly useless to the design and manufacturing capability of India.
IR, one correction- the Mirage-2000I upgrade actually saw a HAL Mission Computer MC2 being integrated. DASH IV HMDS integration is also being taken on by HAL. So not entirely of French design with HAL only doing the work based on French inputs. From the HAL Annual Report 2018-19
FOC upgraded Mirage 2000 I/TI aircraft on 29th May 2018. In-house developed MC2 Mission Computer has been cleared for service use and series upgrade commenced during the year 2018-19. Provisional clearance for DASH IV Helmet was also accorded by RCMA during the year. The first upgraded Mirage 2000 aircraft to IOC standard with indigenous modification kits was delivered by the Company to IAF on 1st January, 2019.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by srai »

...

This is how work in done in India. Without lying about timelines, you won't even get the funding you need today. Every program manager knows this. If you have a problem with this, wait for the system and the society to change. Don't expect HAL to change in isolation because it will not have any funds.
True words!

It’s not necessarily “lying”. I would put it as “very optimistic” timelines. What they don’t know is what they don’t know, but they don’t know until they get there :wink:
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

With commission hungry sharks all around that's the pitiful stateof domestic manufacturing.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

personally I am ok with delay from HAL side if that is technical in nature (as in due to new parts, tech, processes etc.). The delay is not good if because of management reason, lack of oversight, thorough planning, budget, inter department frictions etc.
What is sad in all this is, HAL has not gained much from 'ToT' in the last 70 years. We might as well be at the starting point. It knows very good on how to assemble a plane from CKD kits and as people have pointed out, has done some decent work avionics wise for Jag upgrade etc. I wonder what that extra money for 'ToT' has bought us?
We cant make SC blades (In spite of Mishra Dhatu's effort) or engines in spite of making engines for Jags, Mig 21/27/29, su30mki from 'raw material'. It applies to many other 'stuff' like radars as well (not by HAL, yes by other labs).
It looks like LCA is truly our first ground up effort in last 40-50 years. As if we are starting from scratch. We still do not make 100% of it, some 40-50% by value. And we are facing issues because of it. If this is true, than the expectation that HAL will meet deadlines, or even deliverables is optimistic. It will be very close in meeting that for LCA mk2, or TEDBF etc. after it has produced 100s of LCA MK1.
The current ecosystem is not lacking, what is lacking is our misplaced understanding of how capable it is. It is not very capable. Maybe Turkey or Spain or even Indonesia or Brazil have more advanced aerospace eco system from indigenous point of view than ours. With LCA we are trying to bridge that gap, and the fact that HAL and associated companies have made or more precisely assembled 1000s of plane in the last 50-60 years have very little impact on our indigenous capability to make aerospace parts from scratch.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Dileep »

We recently saw a tender to (use a simile) cook sarson da saag in 15 minutes. Since that is impossible, we went and tried to find out from the lab if they already have someone who cooked and mashed the leaves ready or something. The answer we got is, we need it in 15 minutes because dinner is already scheduled.

Happened multiple times. Something like this:
  • 'Intending Officer' puts in the most optimistic time for the project, say 15 months.
    His boss cuts it down to 12 months because the schedule demands that, considering the tender process optimally takes 1 month.
    Tender process takes 4 months.
    Tender guy simply subtracts the extra 3 months from the time, since the master schedule must be maintained.
    We end up seeing 9 months time for a 15 months project. If we take it, we pay Late Delivery penalty of 10%.
The well established policy of 'fsck the private sector b@stard' in full force onlee
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Prasad »

Is there nobody higher up to talk to about such problems?
JayS
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

Prasad wrote:Is there nobody higher up to talk to about such problems?
Things will get done when everyone's ass is on fire. until then its just - isi topi uske sar....
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by JayS »

agupta wrote:
JayS wrote:First Article will always have teething problems. Thats why it doesn't make sense to constantly keep changing specs with small orders.
Generically true...but how is it relevant to issues coming up for Serial Production ??? Was the SP lot for Mk1s a "small order" ? Your LSPs etc. are all there for working these kinks out.

Most importantly, for Serial Production confirming a time line just months before a deadline is coming up speaks to a troublingly bad culture (either they lie to cover up, or they don't know - lack of capability)... and continuing doubts about HAL's ability to productize with efficiency or even just inspire belief in their own promises/projections.

Lets hope this is a minor hiccup only...
I dont like the crappy communication any more than you do. I have expressed my displasure on that and bad program management many times.

Realities were such that the LSP's ended up with too much of variations among themselves and the changes even creeped in the SPs. IIRC initial 3 SPs were not identical in every respect. There were minor variations as tinkering was still going on. We barely produced 12-13 jets thereon and went for a major change again. It doesn't look like much from the surface but too many things happen from design to MFG when such break comes. A lot of changes are scheduled to be undertaken. So things dont work out as smooth as expected even for the kind of changes we are talking about for IOC to FOC batch. Its true for even the Western OEMs. Check carefully the usual civil airframe and engine programs, there is no dearth of examples.

Unfortunately, we have to take too many strides in every engineering field involved here. Unlike the established OEMs we do not have the luxury of incremental and predictable change management.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Kartik »

As per Grp Cpt HV Thakur on Twitter, SP-21 will fly next week.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

It better, the financial year closes March 31. I have a noble suggestion, if we can have few more March 31 in the year, HAL will deliver more aircraft. They are mighty afraid of that date, they may not produce anything whole year, but seeing this date, just before a month, they will produce a year worth of aircraft. If we want to double the production, have two March 31 in an year.
But jokes and frustration aside, the first article is tough, rest should be faster.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Does anybody have the 3 view line drawings of the NLCA or LCA trainer?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by K Mehta »

Thakur ji saying next week flight of sp 21, egr done and low speed taxi trials ongoing
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12359 ... 73504?s=20
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by khan »

I disagree about this “lying about timelines” thing. Timelines are a way to keep people rowing in the right direction at the right tempo. I have seen unrealistic timelines in the private sector in the West too - but they still have them because they serve a purpose.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/fighterpics/status/ ... 20483?s=20 ---> What's your favorite number?

Image

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12366 ... 95937?s=20 ---> Oops! When I see my kid, I don't notice the other pretty looking ones. Yes 11 is there & that's great too. Unbelong.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 6147828737

Aerodynamics
@Aerodynamic111
IAF’s will have to wait little longer after 1st 4 FOC configuration Tejas aircraft which was scheduled to b delivered by HAL by end of this month is likely to miss its target schedule due to last-min changes and upgrades carried out on d 1st 4 Tejas to cm out in FOC Configuration

+1st FOC configured SP-21 carried out its Ground engine run, way back in November n it ws decided it will get its crucial software upgrade from its partner ADA to allow integration n firing of nwr weapons along with d ability to handle the better rate of climb with better comms.

+while HAL is still tight-lipped about why SP-21 is yet to fly but due to teething issues with some of the FOC equipment integrated for the first time and due to minor software related issues both SP-21 and SP-22 are held up as a precaution from carrying out it first flight,

+while SP-23 is almost ready and work on SP-24 is already at advance stage of completion, HAL is trying to get at least SP-21 and SP-22 airborne by end of March and SP-23 n SP-24 in next two months so that expected commissioning of 2nd squadrons of Tejas Mk1 in IAF happens by end

+of June or in July with four aircraft. what was supposed to be quick last-minute component swap and software upgrade has become a bottleneck in delivery of first FOC configured LCA-Tejas what that is holding back both the aircraft. HAL is maintaining that production of SP-25 to

+SP-31 is progressing well n has maintained that for FY-2020-21 it will deliver another 8 Tejas Mk1 above 4 FOC LCA-Tejas it had promised to deliver by end of FY-2019-20. Last LCA-Tejas Mk1 in IOC-II configuration to come out of HAL Production line ironically was SP-16 (LA-5016 )

which had completed its maiden flight after taking off from HAL Airport in Bangalore on 12-March-2019 which is almost a year back, since then HAL started preparing for the manufacturing of FOC configured LCA-Tejas which starts from SP-21 onwards.
As per above thread, delay is of 2 months due to last minute software upgrade for new weapon, which can be derby or Astra or ??, and in this FY there will be 8 more. So HAL is maintaining the production rate of 8/year and with this rate they can deliver all 40 by end of 2022.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by suryag »

Aerodynamic is idrw twitter handle, copy cat maal no real sources
Karan M
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Karan M »

Yes, just disregard.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Khalsa »

So we knew the above wrt to the good reasons behind the delay. I am no fan of IDRW but the tweeted info seemed a bit like lifting the fog.
anyway we carry on
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/123 ... 45923?s=20 ----> Understand this: While some of you may have become very excited looking at graphics of proposed twin-engined Tejas derivatives etc., unless & until the so-called 'done deal' Tejas Mk-1A order comes through, don't hold your breath. The game is all about committed liabilities.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

I think rather than lip service this should be a priority for GOI
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by naird »

With the current market situation - a global recession is likely ! To spare funds for a military purchase looks like a distant possibility !

Fingers crossed ! The only HAL can secure order for LCA is if Trump/Americans pitch and resell LCA (Yes people - thats sarcasm)
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

I like that sarcasm :lol:
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