Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 17 Mar 2020 16:05

Congrats in order.

On a sidenote, the refueling probe reminded me, it is coming from Chobham UK, who will be disrupted soon. I hope we already have deliveries.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sanjayc » 17 Mar 2020 16:27

First 'combat worthy' Tejas flies for 40 minutes

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 670571.cms

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 17 Mar 2020 16:46

sanjayc wrote:First 'combat worthy' Tejas flies for 40 minutes

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 670571.cms


What the hell does TOI mean by first combat worthy Tejas ? Our 1st squadron will be used to deliver achar ???
This guys should be roasted.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bart S » 17 Mar 2020 16:49

"Combat Worthy". Is it just DDM, or is there some merit to the claim, that implies that the previous planes were not combat worthy?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2020 17:41

Khalsa wrote:@Rakesh
The first page needs updating.
:-)

Done. Page 1 updated. So happy!

Kudos to HAL! Jai Hind! Jai Vigyan!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2020 17:48

I need to know which production line SP-21 came out of. Need to add it on page 1.

Also, can someone tell me the production line names? I think one is called the LCA Division (?) which is Line 1 if I am not mistaken. I need to add that info on page 1.

Hope they get a few more SPs in the air before Mar 31st.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2020 18:18

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 70624?s=20 ---> Congrats to Team HAL & LCA Tejas Division. Here's Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd), CTF, HAL after the successful first flight of Tejas SP-21 today. The flight lasted for 40 minutes.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2020 18:26

SP-21 a day before her first flight....see the other Tejas at the right of the image. Too dark to make out the serial number.

Could it be SP-22?

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 45216?s=20 ---> Tejas SP21 -- the first FOC variant is all set to take to the skies now from HAL Airport. The fighter is piloted by Air Commodore K A Muthanna (Retd), CTF, HAL. The flight duration is expected to be 45 min. Stay tuned for more.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Neilz » 17 Mar 2020 18:46

sanjayc wrote:First 'combat worthy' Tejas flies for 40 minutes

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 670571.cms


From 3 legged cheetah to this ... ye dil mange more...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/first-combat-worthy-tejas-flies-for-40-minutes/articleshow/74670571.cms wrote:Answering a specific question on whether the Tejas was combat ready, then IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said: “...Like I had told you, the proof of the pudding is in eating. You saw how much the aircraft could fly and the number of sorties it could generate during Gagan Shakti, which was in April 2018. And during Vayu Shakti we showed you how accurately this aircraft could dispense weapons on the target. So that is the proof,” he said.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Mar 2020 20:38

First Tejas FOC fighter takes to the skies with loads of upgraded features
Anantha Krishnan M

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssion=true


This is the first Final Operational Clearance (FOC) variant of Tejas fighter produced by LCA Division, the youngest wing of HAL. In the next two years, HAL will have to roll out 16 FOC Tejas fighters (including SP-21) and eight trainers for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

During Tuesday’s flight, the airframe profile was tested in which the engine and aircraft performance was proven. As a mandatory practice, the pilot is said to have also flown an inverted sortie that lasted for 10 seconds.

During today’s flight the pilot pulled 8G and touched supersonic speeds which proved the airframe and engine capabilities.

HAL sources say that Tejas SP-22 is likely to fly at the end of this month and two more fighters (SP-23, SP-24) will join the party by end of May. Tejas SP-22 is expected to undergo EGR (engine ground run) this week.


“The lessons from the recent deliveries of Tejas fighters to IAF have come handy for us in the current scheme of things. SP-21 could have flown much earlier provided the clearance for software configurations came early from the authorities,” says an official.

The LSTT (low-speed taxi trial) for SP-21 was held on March 10 followed by HSTT (high-speed taxi trial) on March 13.

FOC Features

SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refuelling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery, to name a few. Here’s a quick glance at the new features:

• Air-to-air refuelling probe: This novel feature of mid-air refuelling introduced to FOC variants will enhance the range without additional touch downs or pit-stops to refuel. This is the first desi fighter to have this feature.

• Fuel system enhancement: Over and above 2350 kg fuel carrying capability of IOC variant with its external drop tanks of 1200 and 800 litres capacity, Tejas FOC has an additional 725 litres centre line drop tank with pressure refuelling.

• Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles: The reliable Derby missile has expanded the firing envelope making it more lethal. This feature was tested and cleared for the entire FOC envelope via exhaustive study of missile separation characteristics.

• GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun: This Russian gun underwent extensive butt firing at Nasik before getting on board SP-21. The integral gun would give an edge to the pilot in case of a close-combat scenario.


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Mar 2020 20:52

8g on the first flight? just shows the confidence the test team has in the aircraft. Barring the rafale, the tejas may just be the premier air to air asset of the IAF. It irritates me to no end seeing the stories of export to this or that country. The rcs and electronic signature of the Tejas is something we need to guard and not hawk the bird like it is some cheap throwaway. I hope the day is not too far when at least detachments to the western and eastern border happen regularly.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 17 Mar 2020 21:05

I don't understand that. F-16, F-15s, Mirages, Mig29, Su-30s: none of them are cheap throwayas. All were exported subject to export restrictions.

Having said, we should develop the modern day f5 E/F. It will be our AJT and a fighter airforces with smaller means.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Mar 2020 21:17

^^^^^
My concern has more to do with certain potential export customers who may not follow said export restrictions based on the ever changing status of their relationship with our not so friendly neighbors. The shock value of the the teja's low rcs on the first day it engages in combat is something worth preserving.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Mar 2020 21:22

देर आये, दुरुस्त आये (Late but Great) 8)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Mar 2020 21:30

Like Bharadwaj, I also don't think exports are a good idea right now, but for a diffrent reason.

Right now, 100% focus of HAL should be on building numbers for the IAF. Of course, the MoD and the IAF have to issue the orders first. But HAL's focus should be 100% on producing the LCA, and the LCH, numbers for India's defence forces.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby habal » 17 Mar 2020 21:51

LCA for India is like F22 for USA, it is the premier home grown platform. Also like China's J20 and Russian Su-34, Tu-160 and Tu-23. Some platforms are so potent to their makers that they cannot be exported.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 17 Mar 2020 22:06

Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^
My concern has more to do with certain potential export customers who may not follow said export restrictions based on the ever changing status of their relationship with our not so friendly neighbors. The shock value of the the teja's low rcs on the first day it engages in combat is something worth preserving.


As hvtf has clearly stated - This RCS discussion is humbug. A su 30 and lca with external stores attached (drop tanks, munitions, etc) will be picked up around same time. So it really does not matter. Maybe an exception will be in close air support - but i doubt about that also.

Also if export customers happen - instead of shying away, its a good problem to be solved.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 17 Mar 2020 22:08

Awesome news and congratulations to all who toiled hard to achieve this.

HVT Twitter Link: First pictures of SP21 from Deb Rana!

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1239941938758860801

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Mar 2020 22:20

SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refuelling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery, to name a few.

Great news. Any pictures of the tandem pylons? What kind of payload can we expect? 2 x Derby? Are these Derbys the ER variant?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Mar 2020 22:30

And, all those who were hunting for the integral GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun on #TejasSP21, here it is!!

THE REPORT: https://bit.ly/2IU7phg @akananth

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Mar 2020 22:42

naird wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^
My concern has more to do with certain potential export customers who may not follow said export restrictions based on the ever changing status of their relationship with our not so friendly neighbors. The shock value of the the teja's low rcs on the first day it engages in combat is something worth preserving.


As hvtf has clearly stated - This RCS discussion is humbug. A su 30 and lca with external stores attached (drop tanks, munitions, etc) will be picked up around same time. So it really does not matter. Maybe an exception will be in close air support - but i doubt about that also.

Also if export customers happen - instead of shying away, its a good problem to be solved.

While i have not read what HVT has written on the subject, rcs discussion is far far from humbug. To suggest that an lca will be picked up at the same ranges as a sukhoi is a complete physical impossibility. I suggest you read hushkit's interview with hvt's colleague Rajiv Joshi where the Tejas's low rcs is specifically mentioned as a positive attribute.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 17 Mar 2020 22:47

The photos appear to show very good fit and finish- a relief given the increased involvement of private sector players as large component suppliers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2020 23:04

naird wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:^^^^^
My concern has more to do with certain potential export customers who may not follow said export restrictions based on the ever changing status of their relationship with our not so friendly neighbors. The shock value of the the teja's low rcs on the first day it engages in combat is something worth preserving.


As hvtf has clearly stated - This RCS discussion is humbug. A su 30 and lca with external stores attached (drop tanks, munitions, etc) will be picked up around same time. So it really does not matter. Maybe an exception will be in close air support - but i doubt about that also.

Also if export customers happen - instead of shying away, its a good problem to be solved.


He has not said this at all. He has said the Su-30 with its long range radar can do this vs its opposition. That does not mean most of LCAs opponent have the same performance. He in fact mentioned the LCA has a low signature + a long range radar making it a tough opponent.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Picklu » 17 Mar 2020 23:18

Today, a fitting day to pay a tribute to Sri MP Sir ji, Hope he reaches Vaikuntha.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Picklu » 17 Mar 2020 23:22

The first flight didn't have the ubiquitous wvr aam on the outermost pylon as flutter weight.
Also the midboard pylon were fitted to cover the Kuchemann Carrot behind it.

Happened before? Are these the new normal?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 18 Mar 2020 01:06

Karan M wrote:
naird wrote:
As hvtf has clearly stated - This RCS discussion is humbug. A su 30 and lca with external stores attached (drop tanks, munitions, etc) will be picked up around same time. So it really does not matter. Maybe an exception will be in close air support - but i doubt about that also.

Also if export customers happen - instead of shying away, its a good problem to be solved.


He has not said this at all. He has said the Su-30 with its long range radar can do this vs its opposition. That does not mean most of LCAs opponent have the same performance. He in fact mentioned the LCA has a low signature + a long range radar making it a tough opponent.


Karan - HVT's statement below

Su-30 with load out of 6 missiles and full fuel & other fighters with same number of missiles and full fuel (that means with drop tanks) get picked up at practically the same range in head on BVR combat. That's all that matters. Differences, if any, are insignificant.

I am inferring this statement as - an LCA with full load out & Su 30 will full load out ; will see each other from very far - perhaps much farther than BVR ranges. In this case - a low RCS does not make much difference , since external stores negate that advantage.

So whats missing ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 18 Mar 2020 01:27

What a beauty, well worth the wait. BTW, has the squadron been formed with the commanding officer ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2020 01:39

I am inferring this statement as - an LCA with full load out & Su 30 will full load out ; will see each other from very far - perhaps much farther than BVR ranges. In this case - a low RCS does not make much difference , since external stores negate that advantage.

So whats missing ?


The fact that for achieving this a Su-30 has to carry a much bigger radar. Assuming a MiG-21 sized LCA RCS, we are still talking of a range differential of the order of 40% which the Su-30s radar makes up. This is not inconsequential. Now assume the LCA is facing a F-16 or JF-17 vs a Su-30, and consider what happens then given HVTs other comments about LCA signature + radar proving to be a handful.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 18 Mar 2020 01:55

Congratulations to HAL, IAF and to all of us! She looks so sleek! The new probe really looks good, IMO. Very Mirageseque.

Image

So pleased to see it confirmed that No.18 'Flying Bullets' are the next Tejas squadron. This is an honor, folks! The one and only PVC recipient of the IAF, Flying Offer Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon, flew for the 'Flying Bullets' in a Gnat, and now that squadron will be stood up on Tejas. Will be a fantastic day when that happens in a couple of months from now.

IR, could you please confirm one thing- Ananth Krishnan refers to "tandem pylon"..does he mean the tandem pylon for the bombs (one behind the other) or does he mean the dual rack pylon to carry the BVRAAM?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 18 Mar 2020 02:03

First Tejas FOC fighter with upgraded features

Bengaluru: A new variant of India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas completed its first flight successfully..

One of the key features of the new Tejas variant is the air-to-air refuelling probe giving it an edge during enduring missions. The new variants will be able to fly non-stop for over eight hours with air refueling support, thereby giving a fillip to IAF operations.

During Tuesday’s flight, the airframe profile profile was tested in which the engine and aircraft performance was proven. As a mandatory practice, the pilot is said to have also flown an inverted sortie that lasted for 10 seconds. During today’s flight the pilot pulled 8G and touched supersonic speeds which proved the airframe and engine capabilities.

HAL sources say that Tejas SP-22 is likely to fly at the end of this month and two more fighters (SP-23 and SP-24) will join the party by end of May. Tejas SP-22 is expected to undergo EGR (engine ground run) this week.

IAF sources say that the second squadron of Tejas (No 18, Flying Bullets) will be formed at Air Force Station Sulur by likely next month, with the induction of first four fighters. Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria who held the Tejas review on March 2 has told all stakeholders to work in synergy towards the effective operationalisation of the Tejas fleet. The IAF Chief also reviewed the IOC, FOC, Tejas MkIA and Tejas MkII variants and asked DRDO and HAL to hasten up the development schedules.

In a recent interview to Onmanorama, the IAF Chief said that with the induction of the second squadron IAF will enhance the operational utilisation of the Tejas. “The Tejas has very good capabilities and as we gain experience we will continue to expand its operational utility in IAF plans,” Air Chief Marshal Bhadauria had said.

Past Learning

HAL officials say that they have benefited immensely ...

“The lessons from the recent deliveries of Tejas fighters to IAF have come handy for us in the current scheme of things. SP-21 could have flown much earlier provided the clearance for software configurations came early from the authorities,” says an official. ...

FOC Features SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refueling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery to name a few. Here’s a quick glance at the new features:...

...

Despite the delays in rolling out Tejas SP-21, LCA Tejas Division ensured that the young team flocked together and stayed focussed in the last six months. “Everyone is motivated here and they own the Tejas programme. The leadership ensures that even the suggestions of the junior-most staff is factored in. We have been trained right from the first day at this Division that the voice of customer is paramount

According to her, the flat structure being maintained at the Division has enabled smoother decision-making ...


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 18 Mar 2020 02:10

IR and other gurus two questions. I presume the gun hasnt been fired till date in air, true/false? Second, in one of the LSPs the small little hole on the spine(pardon my terminology) close to the vertical stabilizer was have a rounded clam shape however, nowadays they have gone back and made it regular duct shape whats the story behind it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 18 Mar 2020 02:17

It is still the same air intake at the base of the vertical tail. The inlet pops out during certain phases of flight and then pops back in during others. No change here.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 18 Mar 2020 02:19

suryag wrote:What a beauty, well worth the wait. BTW, has the squadron been formed with the commanding officer ?


Not yet. Will be an official ceremony when the No.18 squadron is re-formed. Like it was for No.45 squadron. They would've identified the first set of personnel who will man the squadron but it hasn't been officially announced. We'll get to know when the ceremony is conducted.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 18 Mar 2020 02:26

naird wrote:
Karan M wrote:
He has not said this at all. He has said the Su-30 with its long range radar can do this vs its opposition. That does not mean most of LCAs opponent have the same performance. He in fact mentioned the LCA has a low signature + a long range radar making it a tough opponent.


Karan - HVT's statement below

Su-30 with load out of 6 missiles and full fuel & other fighters with same number of missiles and full fuel (that means with drop tanks) get picked up at practically the same range in head on BVR combat. That's all that matters. Differences, if any, are insignificant.

I am inferring this statement as - an LCA with full load out & Su 30 will full load out ; will see each other from very far - perhaps much farther than BVR ranges. In this case - a low RCS does not make much difference , since external stores negate that advantage.

So whats missing ?

The context of HVT saar's post was comparing SU 30 against existing MRCA 2 contenders. He was popping the tall-claims some were making. you managed to twist it in worst possible way.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 18 Mar 2020 02:33

Thank you Kartik Sir, if HAL manages to do some magic lobbying with MoD and get two more squadrons of MK1 it will be awesome

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 18 Mar 2020 06:30

Congratulations to the entire team for the achievement...
-
On a side note, how will a new order for Tejas Mk1 benefit now given the fact that Mk1A deal is days away from signing...??? Even if we consider a delay in signing of Mk1A deal by a couple of months, won't it take many more months (may be years) for a fresh Mk1 deal to be negotiated & signed even if they start the process today...???
I guess a new Mk1 deal will only help to increase the numbers, but won't help in keeping the production line running... So, if they want to order more numbers, it better be the more capable Mk1A...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 18 Mar 2020 06:55

excellent news!! (when there is doom and gloom around because of Wuhan Virus).
To my untrained eyes, I see many changes, hope to post them (ask about them) in coming days. Wished it flew in December, all 4 deliver by now and today we were resurrecting Flying Bullets.
I guess we took the right road by being extra cautious and putting a more capable plane (more last minute updates + scrutiny) - and it was just not some bad planning, lack of focus. Now we need the 83 planes asap.
We already have 3 iterations of LCA. IOC plane was perhaps few steps behind M2K (itself a 1970s Tech), FOC better than initial M2K (with air to air refueling etc.) and LCA MK1A tech wise contemporary or better to upgraded M2K (a 1990s -2000s tech); MWF - making it at least a generation or half ahead of upgraded m2k (single engine Rafale?). We are getting there.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Saichand K » 18 Mar 2020 07:22

The new 725L drop tank on Tejas-FOC, is it supersonic? Also, does FOC version have OBOGs installed on it, since DEBEL-DRDO cleared lab trials of OBOGs ???

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby shaun » 18 Mar 2020 07:58

Karan M wrote:
I am inferring this statement as - an LCA with full load out & Su 30 will full load out ; will see each other from very far - perhaps much farther than BVR ranges. In this case - a low RCS does not make much difference , since external stores negate that advantage.

So whats missing ?


The fact that for achieving this a Su-30 has to carry a much bigger radar. Assuming a MiG-21 sized LCA RCS, we are still talking of a range differential of the order of 40% which the Su-30s radar makes up. This is not inconsequential. Now assume the LCA is facing a F-16 or JF-17 vs a Su-30, and consider what happens then given HVTs other comments about LCA signature + radar proving to be a handful.

The nasty surprise mig 21 gave to f-15s .... relevant here ??

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 18 Mar 2020 08:13

Saichand K wrote:The new 725L drop tank on Tejas-FOC, is it supersonic? Also, does FOC version have OBOGs installed on it, since DEBEL-DRDO cleared lab trials of OBOGs ???

Nope. 725L is for the centerline pylon.

Supersonic ones are 450L (existing, although not seen in public yet) and 710L (improved shape).


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