Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19537
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 25 Apr 2020 17:13

Mody, do you have a link for the same, or is it chai-source? TIA.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 855
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby krishna_krishna » 25 Apr 2020 19:20

Karan M wrote:Mody, do you have a link for the same, or is it chai-source? TIA.


Now Dassault is touting this as a capability to integrate customers stores, this was result of the indian deal :

"The Rafale’s stores management system is Mil-Std-1760 compliant, which provides for easy integration of customer-selected weapons."

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... d-weapons/

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4533
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 25 Apr 2020 19:40

India pays R&D for many OEMs, except Indian.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:08

Let's not go in the whatabouteries.

Who did the India specific modifications?
Who got paid?
And how much?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:10

Astra has been integrated on Su-30. It will get integrated on LCA family and Mig-29s. I have not heard of the slightest of whispers of integration into Mirage 2000s, let alone Rafales.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:20

I don't know if we have discussed this here. This was a ferry flight from Bangalore to Jaisalmer.

They landed with 800 kg of fuel left. Flying at around FL 280-290 (28000-29000 feet). Higher cruising altitude will lead to higher endurance and range. Current flight ceilings during ferry flights are regulated by DGCA. So, brochure ferry range and endurance without refueling should be around 2800 kms and over 3.5 hours.

Unfortunately, the DTs are not optimized. Addition of the 3rd tank increases range by a little over 100 knots. The 1200 ltr DTs will be changed to 1360 ltr DTs which dont have much higher drag and have better weapon separation characteristics. The centerline tank is going to get bigger with an oval cross section.

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:24

I love this picture too. With Umaid Bhavan in the background and the USAF chief in the rear cockpit.

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:28

This one bbn is clicked by Mao sir. First flight of NP2 with tail hook integrated.

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 20:33

Tejas in front of Umaid Bhavan and Tejas in front of Mehrangarh for have to be some of the best pictures of Tejas.

Image

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 25 Apr 2020 22:58

Indranil wrote:This one bbn is clicked by Mao sir. First flight of NP2 with tail hook integrated.

Image



What a beaut !

That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 25 Apr 2020 23:08

NLCA is a real looker!

kvraghav
BRFite
Posts: 891
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 11:47
Location: Some where near the equator

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kvraghav » 25 Apr 2020 23:21

agupta wrote:What a beaut !

That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

I think this has been a error when some one worked on the image. PS issues.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 561
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby souravB » 25 Apr 2020 23:25

Indranil wrote:....

These are excellent photos. Highlighting excellent build quality for 4th gen bird. Certainly comparable to solah-50s. Specifically for NP1, as a TD too, it is definitely at par with eighteen.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2020 23:34

agupta wrote:What a beaut !

That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

kvraghav wrote:I think this has been a error when some one worked on the image. PS issues.

There are no PS involved. Your eyes are playing tricks. 8)

Nothing is viewable through the rudder. The vortex contrail that you are referring to is from the starboard wingtip. It lies in front of the rudder. The contrail from the port side wingtip can also be seen just behind the engine nozzle.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19537
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2020 09:25

Indranil - check the IAF thread for more on Astra.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 26 Apr 2020 19:33

Image

Image

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 26 Apr 2020 19:40

Image

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3643
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Neela » 27 Apr 2020 12:33

A UK based review of LCA Tejas. Pretty shallow but it is meant for Youtube audience.


mody
BRFite
Posts: 692
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby mody » 27 Apr 2020 15:26

Karan M wrote:Mody, do you have a link for the same, or is it chai-source? TIA.

Karan link to article by Shiv Arror, that very specifically mentions that the Rafeal will have the option of integrating the Astra missile, as well as Brahmos-NG (Point no. 4). It will also carry the Israeli Spice family of bombs and in future any other similar Indian systems.

https://www.dailyo.in/variety/rafale-ai ... 18157.html

Barath
BRFite
Posts: 149
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 27 Apr 2020 16:03

Neela wrote:A UK based review of LCA Tejas. Pretty shallow but it is meant for Youtube audience.

The Follow Up

TEJAS Aircraft Aerodynamics Analysis - The Swedish Connection?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adr6-vK ... e=youtu.be

HVT adds that the followup doesn't have any definite info , but that on the first video, canards were indeed consdired for LCA Mk1 but given up due to lack of confidence in the post sanctions period. However, the confidence is there, now https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1254581263614087168

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19537
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 27 Apr 2020 16:08

Thanks Mody, great find.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1305
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Apr 2020 19:11

Neela wrote:A UK based review of LCA Tejas. Pretty shallow but it is meant for Youtube audience.

I personally found it rather irritating. A lack of research into the history and AF requirements that impacted the design considerations. People would get the impression that ADA went and designed something out of thin air!!!!

Constipation of thought and a diarrhoea of words!!! After the first video did not bother with the second...

Indranil’s article is the gold standard...

Uttam
BRFite
Posts: 324
Joined: 15 Apr 2003 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Uttam » 27 Apr 2020 21:02

GE Bet on Aviation to Pull Through Its Troubles; Then Coronavirus Hit

[Mods: please feel free to delete or move if not appropriate for this thread]

I never post on Military Issues as I know very little about them, though I love to read these threads. But I do have some expertise in Economics, Finance and specially with issues related to Bankruptcy laws in US. I am here just to share my thoughts about some serious threat faced by Tejas if GE goes under.

If GE goes under, then all bets are off about its jet engines. The bankruptcy laws do not protect any signed contracts. The only contracts that have any meaningful value when a firm goes under bankruptcy protection are Debt contracts. This global pandemic therefore presents a very serious threat to all fighter planes including Tejas that are heavily dependent on GE's jet engine. History is replete with example where bankruptcy of one firm led to very serious contagions for other projects and firms that were dependent on the former. Bankrupt firms are often sold in piece and many of these pieces are picked up by private equity firms. Such private equity firms don't really believe in long term reputation building or preserving long-term commercial relations. They just want to make a quick buck and will go to any lengths to do so. US govt. can easily restrict sale of such tech to any nation but can't really force private equity firms to make such sales. Overall, the Tejas and other clients of GE aviation will face very serious challenges if GE goes bankrupt.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7676
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 27 Apr 2020 22:00

GE engine division is not going anywhere. Even if the company goes under the Engine division will get hived off into a separate firm or get snapped up by another company. There's just too much bleeding-edge IP and a huge market share (both civilian and military) to let go of. Just think of the number of Boeing aircraft which use GE engines - all Boeing 737's (CFM is a GE-Safran JV) and nearly all 777's, half the 787's etc plus many Airbus aircraft (half the new A320 Neo's for example). The USN's entire Super Hornet fleet is dependent on the same engines that the Tejas Mk2 will use. All F-16 blk 50's everywhere use GE engines (the 52's use PW). Too big to fail.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5252
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 27 Apr 2020 22:42

agupta wrote:
Indranil wrote:This one bbn is clicked by Mao sir. First flight of NP2 with tail hook integrated.

What a beaut !
That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

There are 2 contrails- the one above is from the right wing and is passing over the rudder as would be expected and the lower contrail is from the left wing.

Real pic, not PS

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5252
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 27 Apr 2020 22:43

kvraghav wrote:
agupta wrote:What a beaut !

That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

I think this has been a error when some one worked on the image. PS issues.


Absolutely not. Look closely before calling it a PS work.

kvraghav
BRFite
Posts: 891
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 11:47
Location: Some where near the equator

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kvraghav » 27 Apr 2020 23:12

Kartik wrote:
kvraghav wrote:I think this has been a error when some one worked on the image. PS issues.


Absolutely not. Look closely before calling it a PS work.

My mistake. Mistook the wake from below the right wing to that generated from the left. The color of the background being same as blue patches on the rudder did not help my case. :oops:

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 28 Apr 2020 00:01

Indranil wrote:
agupta wrote:What a beaut !

That said, there's something odd about it - look just to the left of the Nausena word....how is the contrail/vortex visible through the rudder ? Are my old eyes tired or is this PS enhanced ?

kvraghav wrote:I think this has been a error when some one worked on the image. PS issues.

There are no PS involved. Your eyes are playing tricks. 8)

Nothing is viewable through the rudder. The vortex contrail that you are referring to is from the starboard wingtip. It lies in front of the rudder. The contrail from the port side wingtip can also be seen just behind the engine nozzle.



Thx :) of course... its "foreground" signature seems to have gotten washed out in the grey metallic background.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4393
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Apr 2020 10:02

SidSoma wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Can't the mk1 carry an spj on the ldp station while still carrying 6 AAMs and CFT? If course dualk racks are always useful..


There were reports that the Ideal position of SPJ was one of the outboard pylons

Thank you. I remember the conversation now. Makes sense.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 625
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Haridas » 28 Apr 2020 11:00

Indranil wrote:There are no PS involved. Your eyes are playing tricks. 8)

Nothing is viewable through the rudder. The vortex contrail that you are referring to is from the starboard wingtip. It lies in front of the rudder. The contrail from the port side wingtip can also be seen just behind the engine nozzle.

Not from starboard wingtip (too high for it) but from forward slats.

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 304
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 28 Apr 2020 15:26

Haridas wrote:
Indranil wrote:There are no PS involved. Your eyes are playing tricks. 8)

Nothing is viewable through the rudder. The vortex contrail that you are referring to is from the starboard wingtip. It lies in front of the rudder. The contrail from the port side wingtip can also be seen just behind the engine nozzle.

Not from starboard wingtip (too high for it) but from forward slats.


Ikzaactly.... what I was surprised by was that the FW slats deflection looks pretty small too - but I guess sufficient humidity that a small Delta-lift was sufficient to visualize the vortex

basant
BRFite
Posts: 226
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Apr 2020 20:43

Indranil wrote:I don't know if we have discussed this here. This was a ferry flight from Bangalore to Jaisalmer.

They landed with 800 kg of fuel left. Flying at around FL 280-290 (28000-29000 feet). Higher cruising altitude will lead to higher endurance and range. Current flight ceilings during ferry flights are regulated by DGCA. So, brochure ferry range and endurance without refueling should be around 2800 kms and over 3.5 hours.

2800kms! :D

I faintly remembered and tried to find the post referring to the same when Tejas was on enroute to Bahrain. All I could find was your own post referring to flying to Jodhpur with 500l to spare. Can't be happier!

ks_sachin wrote:
Neela wrote:A UK based review of LCA Tejas. Pretty shallow but it is meant for Youtube audience.

I personally found it rather irritating. A lack of research into the history and AF requirements that impacted the design considerations. People would get the impression that ADA went and designed something out of thin air!!!!

Can't agree more. The one good thing I found on the post was the information shared by Marcos' as a reply to Amused Observer. I am posting it here as it may refresh the data and some may find it useful.

@Amused Observer Following are the Indian avionics in Tejas. Correct me if i am wrong anywhere :
1.RCI fibre-optic gyro based inertial navigation system integrated with Galileo/GLONASS/GPS/NavIC satellite guidance and tactical air navigation (TACAN) system

2.VHF/UHF radio communication with in-built counter-countermeasure system, supports air-to-air and air-to-ground via secure datalink

3. Digital weapon management system (DWMS), compatible with NATO and Russian standards

4.-64-bit PowerPC dual modular redundant MIL-STD-1553B databus and open architecture mission computer

5. Ground proximity warning and terrain referenced navigation system

6. VHF omnidirectional range–instrument landing system (VOR–ILS)

7. Computer controlled flight utility system and management system (USMS)

8. Hybrid environmental monitoring and control system (EMCS)

9. Aircraft health and usage monitoring systems (HUMS)

10. MIL-STD-1760C stores management system

11. Fail-operational/fail-safe air data system

12. computational intelligence based pilot help emergency and autoland system with ground station controls.

13. Identification friend or foe (IFF)

14.Chaff, jaff and flares dispenser

15. Night-vision goggles compatible glass cockpit

16. head-up display (HUD).

Within a couple of years, there will be more coming in..such as the MAYAVI EW System, UTTAM Aesa radar and Onboard Oxygen Generator system.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 29 Apr 2020 11:52

Haridas wrote:
Indranil wrote:There are no PS involved. Your eyes are playing tricks. 8)

Nothing is viewable through the rudder. The vortex contrail that you are referring to is from the starboard wingtip. It lies in front of the rudder. The contrail from the port side wingtip can also be seen just behind the engine nozzle.

Not from starboard wingtip (too high for it) but from forward slats.

No sirjee. It is actually from the wingtip. Let me explain. The vortex at every slat originates at the root (as is expected of any delta). So the vortex at the outermost slat is also originated at its root (not near wingtip). In the case of Tejas, these vortices are pretty large by design (large enough to affect the reattachment of the main vortex on the main wing). They break down pretty fast as well. The contrail that you see in the above picture cannot be created by the vortex generated by the LE slats.
Image

The contrail that you are seeing here is from the wingtip. It originates from the notch on the LE just inboard of the lights, where the tip of the outermost slat would meet in the fully retracted position. You can see the contrail here.
Image
^^^ exists on both wingtips, but can be viewed more clearly near the starboard wingtip.

Image
on both wingtips.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 30 Apr 2020 00:32

Dancing like an Apsara!! What a beauty!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54452
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 02 May 2020 06:56

Indranil wrote:Karan,

...

Anyways, I went back to have some more chai. For Mk1 and Mk1A they are seriously considering 4 BVRAAMs + 2CCMs + centerline tank. But that is nothing new. That config has been on static display. No talks of dual racks. At least that flavor of chai was unavailable to me.


What would be the take off weight of that weapons load? And as % of max takeoff please.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 02 May 2020 09:28

Clean take off weight of Tejas mk1 with 2 CCM is 9800 kg and Tejas mk1a is 9900kg.

4 Derby ER with 40 Kg Nato standard launcher will be 4*(118kg+40kg)=632kg

4 Astra mk1 with R 77 launcher weighing 60 kg will be 4*(154kg+60kg)=856kg

725 litre centre EFT will weigh 725*0.8/0.9~ 640kg.

Tejas mk1a with derby=11170kg(81% of MTOW)

Tejas mk1a with Astra=11400kg(83% of MTOW)

Whether Optronic pod will be carried for passive air to air targeting add 200kg.

MTOW @13800kg.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 02 May 2020 09:57

Exclusive AMRAAM launcher weighs only 28 kg as it does not carry nitrogen cooling bottle for IR seeker of CCM in which case it weighs 40kg.
Astra launcher is being developed. Don't know if it dual for CCM or only for Radar guided BVR.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 692
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby mody » 03 May 2020 13:30

sankum wrote:Clean take off weight of Tejas mk1 with 2 CCM is 9800 kg and Tejas mk1a is 9900kg.

MTOW @13800kg.


Any source that says MK1A will weigh 100 Kgs more than the MK1 version? Thanks.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 836
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 03 May 2020 14:22

Partial infoboard in defexpo 2020 posted in this forum by shobhits.
Its the weight of jamming pod carried by Tejas mk1a.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 331
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 May 2020 17:26

OT but HVT Sir's twitter gone?


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A Sharma, shettyp and 43 guests