Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 18 May 2020 22:35

Vivek K wrote:When will the news be in the "past tense"? Doesn't do me any good to read about future prospects.


Very true. The 83 MK1A should have been part of the fiscal stimulus package as it will add vast skilled employment in the country. The funds originally allocated could be used for another 83.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 18 May 2020 22:42

Indranil wrote:The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.

But do they not get bothered by the ridiculous claims made in the media in paid articles meant to discredit the entire program? Claims which bother people like you and Jay enough to write your own articles factually debunking the nonsense. And the people who built the actual thing don't care? This just boggles my mind. Surely they can see the threat here? The number of orders the Tejas will get directly depends on who is convinced about Tejas capability and how well. HVT sir is constantly dealing with idiots on twitter. He for one knows very well the kind of impact this misinformation has not only on the general public but also on decision makers. We had people from the IAF deriding it not long back and things have only improved thanks to the current and perhaps previous ACM. You would think having the aircraft's true performance out in public would be a high priority task.

And even forgetting about the orders and global competition or lack thereof, they do take pride in their work I am sure. Why would you let two bit journalists lie and discredit your work? The heads of the ADA and HAL should call a press conference and public call out the journalists for spreading fake news. Or do it on twitter at least.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby VinodTK » 18 May 2020 22:51

nachiket wrote:But do they not get bothered by the ridiculous claims made in the media in paid articles meant to discredit the entire program? Claims which bother people like you and Jay enough to write your own articles factually debunking the nonsense. And the people who built the actual thing don't care? This just boggles my mind. Surely they can see the threat here? The number of orders the Tejas will get directly depends on who is convinced about Tejas capability and how well.

People who work and manage such projects should have pride in what they do.
When they view their work as purely a source of livelyhood then we will see what we are seeing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 18 May 2020 22:52

Agree with Nachiket! Head of DRDO should have a press conference and point out lies put out by specific journalists. In fact CBI should issue show cause notices to these journalists for their defamatory articles" and check if the journos have accepted bribes or other inducements from foreign entities. Should also check if FERA (or its current Avatar) violations have been committed by these individuals.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 18 May 2020 23:08

Indranil wrote:
basant wrote:Thanks for the wonderful rebuttal IR. I am confused about ferry range mentioned in the article and the one in 2019. The latter gives ferry range as 1750km while the former, in context of endurance, mentions 2800km. Can you clarify please?

Edit: To me it looks like comparison of internal fuel only vs w/ external fuel.

No. Those are ferry ranges. But, we made a typographic error in reporting there. It was supposed to be 2750 kms.

The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.


This outdated mentality at ADA/HAL had better change fast. In some ways they're stuck in a time warp. the PSU mentality of not being worried about marketing due to a captive customer won't work with exports one bit.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 18 May 2020 23:21

They are still very old school. We will let the product speak for itself. I know a few people in ADA are trying to fight for more marketing/disinformation. But right now it is falling on deaf ears. ADA is a lad full of brilliant scientist and engineers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 18 May 2020 23:25

I dont know if this is endemic to our culture/religion we are too much into self effacement and "kaam bolta hai" attitude. No one is asking them to be a dick but alteast be confident and remember that the customer needs to know what he is buying so you need some amount of advertising.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 19 May 2020 00:35

Perhaps the only way is to set up a new agency dedicated for exports in a GoI owned company. Somewhat similar to Antrix for ISRO, which is the marketing and commercial arm of ISRO and is dedicated towards marketing launch capability aboard ISRO rockets.

"The product will speak for itself" attitude will only work on our Armed Forces. Exports are very tricky and require real sales and marketing skills. Hardly likely in a PSU that hasn't had an export oriented focus ever. Otherwise, Modiji's exports target will remain a pipe dream.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Shameek » 19 May 2020 00:50

I would say go one step ahead and make the Tejas a household name. Make every plastic airplane toy you buy at a store a Tejas replica. Every random image of a fighter plane on media should be Tejas. Sell T-Shirts and model kits. I remember many years back in school, kids who didn't have any interest military topics had still heard of an F-16. Toys were sold resembling F-16s. Heck, half our media used copied F-16 images for any fighter article. In the early 80's it was similar with the Tomcat and movies and GIJoe toys.

We have a great airplane here. It needs to be sold and glorified to our country first and then abroad!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Sanju » 19 May 2020 01:08

IR, that was a well written rebuttal, even i could understand it. Kudos to you and thank you for putting your efforts in this direction. Speaks a lot about your knowledge, capability and good intentions.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 19 May 2020 01:20

ashishvikas wrote:Removing Some Media Fallacies About The Capabilities of The LCA Tejas Fighter

By Indranil Roy

http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/05/1 ... s-fighter/


One of the most important new nuggets of information that IR provided in this article.


The truth is that the in-service fatigue life of the Tejas is yet to be ascertained. As per sources, an initial conservative estimate of 9000 flying hours has been arrived at. Each of the in-service Tejas units are fitted with a Health Up Monitoring System (HUMS) to measure airframe fatigue and come up with revised estimates for service life. By all indicators this estimation of 9000 hours is going to be revised upwards!



And this is considered to be conservative! Incredible really. I recall a conversation I had with a senior person that worked on structures at ADA long ago. He had said that in his estimate the Tejas would have a fatigue life well in excess of 4000 hours and he believed it would go up to 6000 hours. Now, this 9000 hours figure is staggering.

Really really hoping that ADA, NAL and HAL work on this and release a figure. It does wonders to the image of the airplane in the public's mind.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 03:24

sankum wrote:Roughly 6500kg empty + 2500 kg internal fuel+ 300kg 2 CCM with launchers and + 500kg misc( 100kg Pilot + 300kg pylons +100kg cannon ammo,chaff flare).= 9800kg Clean TOW.


The empty weight is 6560kg according to Tejas website link given in Page 1.
The Tejas website link gives the max engine thrust as 9163kg i.e 89.8 kn instead of 84 kn given in Page 1.
Internal fuel is 2458kg (DRDO Tech focus Aero India 2011)
Dry Engine thrust 53.9 kn.

Please update accordingly.

WOW! Thank you. Page 1 updated again.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Zynda » 19 May 2020 03:56

IR, any idea if full-scale fatigue testing has been completed on Tejas? Last I heard (this was around a couple of years ago), that activity was still pending (lack of airframes? though I believe one airframe had been earmarked as an article for full-scale fatigue testing).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2020 04:09

Nice article IR!! I hope it becomes the gold standard when people want to look up stuff.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Raman » 19 May 2020 04:10

IR - wonderful article!

One small typo - HUMS stands for Health and Usage Monitoring System.

(Forum ate my previous reply(?!))

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 May 2020 04:46

Indranil wrote:They are still very old school. We will let the product speak for itself. I know a few people in ADA are trying to fight for more marketing/disinformation. But right now it is falling on deaf ears. ADA is a lad full of brilliant scientist and engineers.

IR while you know best, based on what i have heard from some junior folks in DRDO is that they have a mindset of not getting into media things. The reason is that these are muddy waters, lot of things happening behind scenes and people dont want to take position and then find themselves out of favor with an administration

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 13:07

Kartik wrote:
Indranil wrote:No. Those are ferry ranges. But, we made a typographic error in reporting there. It was supposed to be 2750 kms.

The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.


This outdated mentality at ADA/HAL had better change fast. In some ways they're stuck in a time warp. the PSU mentality of not being worried about marketing due to a captive customer won't work with exports one bit.

Thanks for the clarification IR. I find this part of spec very mysterious and it is perfectly okay to be classified if it helps IAF. The Wiki figure for ferry range is 3200 km, and it gives reference to a Flight Global's archived site that mentions 1750 km. It is true that Bangalore-Jaisalmer distance is close to 2100 km, but direct air to air distance is 1710 km! This would not be same as actual flight path, but that info is not available. Also, 1750 mi is 2816 km and 1750 nmi is 3240 km, closer to Wiki value!

Just saying, too many coincidences! Would it be possible to edit the typo in your (and Nilesh's) DDR article as perhaps there are now the go to sites for proper information?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 19 May 2020 13:22

If ADA cannot do it, then volunteers should chip in. ADA can release data points from time to time and volunteers can take it forward.The biggest lesson from the LCA program is the openness of the development process. This allows followers of the LCA to counter hit jobs using technical points.

When a reporter who was part of the hitjob, gets repeatably gets countered, then he looses his credibility.

The advent of SM has made it difficult to sustain a hit job narrative. With the political class now being accessible on SM platforms, it reaches their ear quite easily.

It is very important that groups in SM be educated of the achievements we have made on our programs so far. MSM cannot always fool the crowd then.
Last edited by nam on 19 May 2020 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 13:24

Indranil wrote:
basant wrote:Thanks for the wonderful rebuttal IR. I am confused about ferry range mentioned in the article and the one in 2019. The latter gives ferry range as 1750km while the former, in context of endurance, mentions 2800km. Can you clarify please?

Edit: To me it looks like comparison of internal fuel only vs w/ external fuel.

No. Those are ferry ranges. But, we made a typographic error in reporting there. It was supposed to be 2750 kms.

The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.



Rakesh please edit the ferry range of Tejas mk1 to 2800km instead of 1750km on page 1.

Indranil has mentioned the typo error .

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby csaurabh » 19 May 2020 16:11

Need to have dedicated media people and marketing department to dispel import lobby's propaganda and promote own products.. It is not some hobby or extra curricular activity that can be handed out to jr. scientists.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 18:30

sankum wrote:Rakesh please edit the ferry range of Tejas mk1 to 2800km instead of 1750km on page 1.

Indranil has mentioned the typo error .

I have made the correction. Thanks Sankum.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 19 May 2020 18:45

ashishvikas wrote:Removing Some Media Fallacies About The Capabilities of The LCA Tejas Fighter

By Indranil Roy

http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/05/1 ... s-fighter/


Great Job Indranil. Thank You!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dinesha » 19 May 2020 21:11

Vishnu Som interview with Air Force Chief
https://www.ndtv.com/video/exclusive/nd ... ome-videos
Talks about LCA, AMCA at around 10:10
also on TV tonight at 10:00 PM

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:17

Tejas Mk1, SP-17

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 19 May 2020 21:18

Bloody Hell! Who took this photo?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:19

Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 21:32

Rakesh wrote:Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.
Last edited by basant on 19 May 2020 21:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:37

This is weird. I can't find the link now. And you are correct it is KH-2017 and not LA-5017.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 21:53

Rakesh wrote:This is weird. I can't find the link now. And you are correct it is KH-2017 and not LA-5017.

:(
I hope HD version would be uploaded soon. It looks stunning! The canopy looks more optimized, I guess may be there is just a little bit of nose drop too. I thought it might be a trainer, but of course it isn't. Hat's off to whoever made it.

And thanks for uploading it sir!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mollick.R » 19 May 2020 22:44

basant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.


Sir(s), able to locate the source/artist of this wonderful creation................

BY NishithV © 2018 - 2020 NishithV

https://www.deviantart.com/nishithv/art/Tejas-3d-763796883

Open the link , click on expand button & there is a HD version 1920x800px (PNG fie format) 2.28 MB size is available to download.
Last edited by Mollick.R on 19 May 2020 22:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 22:46

You are amazing! I got the picture from a Tweet. You found the real diamond. HD quality too :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 23:14

Mollick.R wrote:
basant wrote:It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.


Sir(s), able to locate the source/artist of this wonderful creation................

BY NishithV © 2018 - 2020 NishithV

https://www.deviantart.com/nishithv/art/Tejas-3d-763796883

Open the link , click on expand button & there is a HD version 1920x800px (PNG fie format) 2.28 MB size is available to download.

No sir please and thanks for the gem! I loved the Mig-29K pic too!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 20 May 2020 06:28

Indranil Good job.

Arjun pandit et al., No need to refute popular press stories as it's a mud fight. Besides with MAD in charge no need to waste in frivolous activity of countering lies.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 20 May 2020 16:26

From HVT, a cryptic message:

Source: https://twitter.com/nishthavaan/status/ ... 2267516929
Smiles
@nishthavaan
@hvtiaf sir, is ferry range of Tejas Mk1 much less than that of Gripen C/D? It seems like it is about half (1750 km vs 3200 km). Please reply only if it isn't classified. Would Mk-1A have higher range?


Reply: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1262907015816523782
Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to @nishthavaan
They're have the same engine and same weight. Only brochures are different.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby raghuk » 20 May 2020 17:00

It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 20 May 2020 17:53

Clever sharp reply. Gets those questioning to think for themselves a bit more ;) That’s really the way to get through to people these days with short attention spans. Catchy Sound bites!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 20 May 2020 20:44

srai wrote:Clever sharp reply. Gets those questioning to think for themselves a bit more ;) That’s really the way to get through to people these days with short attention spans. Catchy Sound bites!

Correct me if I am wrong, this is the first time that someone/some agency connected with Tejas indicated that its range is close to Gripen's. Even ADA brochure on its website makes no mention of a basic parameter like ferry range! HVT tweeted earlier in a response that endurance and range is 'huge', whatever number that it was meant to represent. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 May 2020 23:13

unfortunately public is drunk on H'wood movies and rest on brochures...there are only a few who dont pay attention to them..some happen to be here

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 May 2020 23:22

raghuk wrote:It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures


So let's blame them for doing a good job on marketing rather than improving on it ourselves, right?

The sooner HAL/ADA and all other DRDO labs get rid of this attitude of lackluster marketing, the better. A product's image is built by how it is marketed. DRDO and all PSUs tend to be hopeless at this. Some of the brochures that are prepared are like stuck in a different era itself.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SidSoma » 20 May 2020 23:41

Kartik wrote:
raghuk wrote:It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures


So let's blame them for doing a good job on marketing rather than improving on it ourselves, right?

The sooner HAL/ADA and all other DRDO labs get rid of this attitude of lackluster marketing, the better. A product's image is built by how it is marketed. DRDO and all PSUs tend to be hopeless at this. Some of the brochures that are prepared are like stuck in a different era itself.


I totally agree with you. I see this as the shortsightedness of the Indian system (govt, babus, HAL mgmt). Tejas has always been seen as something for the Indian forces, even with ATAGS, Dhruv, Arjun and all our missiles + radars. They have all been created with only one force in mind and without any thought to market/sell any where else. Hence only conservative, SDRE numbers are released to public. I mean on the other hand we have JF-17 block 3 being touted as a counter to Rafale F3. I see this as an extension of the Indian mentality.


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