Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 02 Jun 2020 23:48

Rakesh wrote:
srai wrote:...Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).

Like how Pakistan gets F-16s via "baksheesh" from Jordan with blessings from Unkil?

And also like how Pakistan upgrades her early model F-16s from Turkey, again with blessing from Unkil?

But because it is F-16....it is phoren (American) and so it is good :lol: We SDREs must never aim to think like this.


Maybe we should keep a couple dozen half built airframes in some warehouse for 20 years and then offer sell the them completed for nearly the same price of a new one - if someone bites, that will be the day India truly arrives on the world scene :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2020 23:50

Just for reference putting it out here..

Chinis J10 & Su27 knock off J11 flew in 1998, when they were 1T GDP.

By 2006, they were 2.75T GDP and had inducted both of the jets.

We are 3T GDP now. And so far we have inducted 17 fighters. And have been complaining about lack of money.

The Chinese had a larger population than us, per capita wise poorer than us at the same GDP.

By the time we have inducted 100 jet (in 2028), same as probably what the Chinis did when they were less than 2T GDP.. we would close to 5T, if not more.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 00:19

A better point of reference would be how much money does China allocate for defence versus India.

If India truly aspires to be regional power, she has to increase her defence budget and invest significantly more in R&D and production of defence equipment. Whenever we hit 5T, matters little if India spends little on defence.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 03 Jun 2020 00:20

Rakesh wrote:
Gyan wrote:If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.

I remember IR once saying something similar with regards to the bolded part. I have to find that post, which is like finding a needle in a haystack. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but if IR sees this...perhaps he can state it again.
...

Sir, I recently posted HVT and AM Nambiar praising Tejas, where HVT explicitly praised it vis-a-vis Jaguar. I am convinced that LCA should not just be compared with Mig-21 to make a point but to Jaguar as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 00:22

Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 03 Jun 2020 00:30

Rakesh wrote:Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!

Happy to be of any use sir. Also I found the needle perhaps you were looking for, courtesy Google. There are interesting discussions on comparison with Jaguar. It would be great if any of the concerned gurus like IR, tsarkar, JayS who then discussed it may give any non-sensitive updates. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2020 00:42

Rakesh wrote:HAL will soon have three Tejas lines, the Tejas Mk2 will not get inducted in IAF service within 5 - 6 years, all the MiG-21 Bisons will have retired by then and MMRCA will not be anywhere close to completion (assuming the contest gets underway) in that time frame. Another 36 Rafales will likely come, but the squadron strength will still be low.

If the IAF wants to wait for unobtanium (i.e. 114 MMRCA), then how dire is the squadron strength situation? You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.


Rakesh, Sandeep Unnithan didn't mention where the third line will be located, right? Possibly Nashik, where the Su-30MKI line will be going idle?

It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

Although I'm hoping that the Tejas Mk2 development completes on time and production starts by 2028, one would need to be a little cautious with the timelines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 00:45

basant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!

Happy to be of any use sir. Also I found the needle perhaps you were looking for, courtesy Google. There are interesting discussions on comparison with Jaguar. It would be great if any of the concerned gurus like IR, tsarkar, JayS who then discussed it may give any non-sensitive updates. :)

Aiyoo! Please do not call me Sir.

Page 1 updated. Please check. Given you credit as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:14

Kartik wrote:Rakesh, Sandeep Unnithan didn't mention where the third line will be located, right? Possibly Nashik, where the Su-30MKI line will be going idle?

From IDRW...for what it is worth.

I read somewhere - a few years back - that setting up a Tejas production line costs anywhere between $200 to $250 million. Looking at the big picture, that is peanuts IMVHO.

Tejas Fighter Jet to get Third Production Line soon
https://idrw.org/tejas-fighter-jet-to-g ... line-soon/

30,000 sq meters of HAL land have been used near Nekkundi to set up a third production line for the Tejas fighter jet which is equipped with structural assembly hangar, process shop, and sheet metal shop, among others.

HAL also has offered to establish fourth Tejas Production line in its Nashik Unit which was previously used to make Sukhoi-30MKI locally under Russian license if IAF wanted a faster deliveries schedule which will take the production of Tejas Mk1A to 20 aircraft per annum if fourth production line is also activated by 2023 but IAF is yet to confirm need for fourth production line but it is possible that it might be used as production line for MWF-Tejas Mk2 in near future.

===============================================
Kartik wrote:It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

Although I'm hoping that the Tejas Mk2 development completes on time and production starts by 2028, one would need to be a little cautious with the timelines.

Additional Tejas Mk1A units will come and it could be the very scenario that you mentioned above. The Mk2 will be delayed, but to be expected. Any project of this scale will get delayed. The optimist in me says around 1 - 2 years delay in total, but I could be way off the mark.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:22

The Nekkundi location is confirmed by another source....but not sure how reliable they are. Will wait for official confirmation before adding on page 1.

https://twitter.com/NewsLineIFE/status/ ... 05856?s=20 ---> Major Boost for Indian Air Power! HAL is on its way to establish a third production line for the Tejas Fighter Jet by end of November. Will be used to manufacture initially 18 Twin Seater LCA Trainers. 30,000 square meters land have been used near Nekkundi for third production line.

But I believe the picture looks this...

• Line 1 (LCA Division): 8 aircraft per year
• Line 2 (Aircraft Division): 4 aircraft per year
• Line 3* (Nekkundi Division): 4 aircraft per year
• Line 4^ (Current Sukhoi Line): 4 aircraft per year

*Under Construction
^Proposed

If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:29

If this prediction of mine goes awry, rub my nose in the ground and feed me crow soup (but please do not remind me of mithai) ----> Tejas Mk1A is going to go beyond the 83 aircraft on order now and it will be the IAF who will be asking the MoD to order more units. And this new order will come once the Mk1A gets inducted into the IAF. Mark this date and mark my post.

* Elta AESA radar (or as Dileep Saar puts it...optical vs digital zoom)
* Air-to-Air armament of Derby, Astra, Python 5, etc.
* Air-to-Ground armament (local and phoren)
* Air-to-Air Refueling

BISON, MiG-27 and Jaguar pilots will love her. The noise - to order more - will come from them onlee.

P.S. And when this prediction turns out to be correct, we will all win. Starch your lungis.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 03 Jun 2020 05:41

Rakesh Sir, 40 MK1 conversion to MK1A is not counted in the rub my nose/crow soup challenge

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:44

No Sir for me :)

I thought the conversion was already on the cards no?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 03 Jun 2020 05:45

Yes i didnt want you to count that 40 for your challenge

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:45

:lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby shaun » 03 Jun 2020 08:40

So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jun 2020 08:50

Admiral,

In one of your posts above you asked us to starch our lungi's.

Pray tell how we do lungi dance with starched lungis. I am averse to pain!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 03 Jun 2020 10:00

[*]Thank you Rakesh (sir). :D

May be a blog from any of the gurus should be written explicitly showing that LCA is to be compared with non-updated version of Mirage 2000 and Jaguars. Given capability already demonstrated by Tejas, that would be a more forceful argument in favour of Tejas instead of comparing with Mig-21s, which is being utterly meek and even self-defeating.

shaun wrote:So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

:D

He actually quoted RRM Dr. Bhamre!

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jun 2020 14:25

Rakesh wrote:If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

thats over a sqdn per year..not bad..but would it make sense to give a pvt contractor too?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 03 Jun 2020 15:19

There is a real risk of a war with Pak or China in the next couple of years. 2023 is too far. We need more of FOC version now..

No point inducting Mk1A versions, when the balloon had already gone up..

We will end up with what has happened with Netra. Fabulous performance during Feb 26 strikes... but only one available for the fight.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jun 2020 15:40

nam wrote:There is a real risk of a war with Pak or China in the next couple of years. 2023 is too far. t.

There is a school of thought that given the kind of equipping of SF and the Airforce and the collaboration with some nation states we can see a takeout of Pak nuke capability in the time period you mentioned as well as retake of PoK.

Take it for what it is worth but came from the mouth of one of the most erudite General I have met.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 03 Jun 2020 17:06

ArjunPandit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

thats over a sqdn per year..not bad..but would it make sense to give a pvt contractor too?

83 units are too little to go around for another private assembly line. Order a lot more then yes. Even HAL has agreed to such a public-private venture.

As far as major components assembly (i.e. wings, fins, and fuselage), it’s already farmed out to at least 5-6 private companies. They have started delivering from SP-16. More orders I’m sure they can scaling up capacity or additional players could be brought in.

Bottom line, need volume orders. Rest will figure itself out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:08

Also, any one (or more) of the lines can be converted into a public-private venture if need be.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:13

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,

In one of your posts above you asked us to starch our lungi's.

Pray tell how we do lungi dance with starched lungis. I am averse to pain!!!

Starch only to remove the creases and wrinkles :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:22

basant wrote:
shaun wrote:So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

He actually quoted RRM Dr. Bhamre!

18 squadrons of Tejas would mean 324 aircraft, assuming we adopt the 18 aircraft per squadron calculation.

1) 40 Tejas Mk1 (2 squadrons)
2) 83 Tejas Mk1A (4 squadrons)

Out of 324 aircraft (or 18 squadrons), that leaves 201 aircraft (or ~ 10 squadrons). Air Chief Marshal Bhaduria states that the IAF is looking for close to 100 Tejas Mk2s. Quote below....

IAF to acquire 450 fighter aircraft in future, says Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ria/593673

"In the next 15 years, 83 LCAs are our primary focus, after that LCA Mark 2 will come in we are looking at close to 100 of those, that makes it near 200 of LCA class," Bhadauria told ANI in an interview.

That still leaves 101 aircraft (or ~ 5 squadrons). It will be combination of Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2. The latter will definitely not meet her current deadlines. A scenario like Kartik said below will likely occur....a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2.

Kartik wrote:It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2020 23:30

Folks try to read the e-book. It's written by an IAF planning officer

https://idsa.in/book/combat-aviation-kkhera

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Roop » 04 Jun 2020 12:36

ks_sachin wrote:There is a school of thought that given the kind of equipping of SF and the Airforce and the collaboration with some nation states we can see a takeout of Pak nuke capability in the time period you mentioned as well as retake of PoK.

Take it for what it is worth but came from the mouth of one of the most erudite General I have met.


I think you are right (so I guess I am a member of that "school of thought" you spoke of 8) ). Of course, my opinion is based simply on my own assessment of international relations / tensions, plus the SF equipment buildup and training that you mentioned. I do not have any tips/hints/ishaaras from anyone in the know.

I'll just say this much: I have no idea if this will actually happen, but it would be highly irresponsible and foolish of India to not have serious contingency plans for exactly this kind of thing (in conjunction with "a few friends", of course). I would say, at minimum, The Mighty Khan (TMK) and Israel would have to be part of the plan. India could provide (a) its knowledge of the locations of Paknukes and (b) the military distractions to Pak in the east, i.e. a war to liberate PoK and GB. TMK (with its unmatched ISR and technical capabilities) and Israel (the only country in the world with actual successful experience in this kind of mission) would go about the job of actual location and destruction of the "jewels". Actually, rather than the jewels themselves, what should be first on the target list is the Paki delivery systems (F16s and various flavours of missiles).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Jun 2020 17:21

New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years
by Vishnu SomUpdated: June 04, 2020

The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... ssion=true

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby khan » 04 Jun 2020 19:12

FYI hvt_iaf twitter account is gone.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 04 Jun 2020 23:05

Again??
added later - his Twitter account is @hvtiaf. He's there on Twitter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jun 2020 06:24

Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 05 Jun 2020 12:49

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:


:-? Yeah @hvtiaf is gone too. Not sure what's happening.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 05 Jun 2020 12:57

Rakesh wrote:A better point of reference would be how much money does China allocate for defence versus India.

If India truly aspires to be regional power, she has to increase her defence budget and invest significantly more in R&D and production of defence equipment. Whenever we hit 5T, matters little if India spends little on defence.



Quite true , by any metric india spends less on r and d as well as capital goods acquisitions. Manpower costs take away way more

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 05 Jun 2020 13:00

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:


I think the idea is to be in control how much info he wants to let the mango people know !!... and not much ..I guess security reasons ? The ISI and its cohorts have ramped up their activities on social media

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby jaysimha » 05 Jun 2020 14:31

TEJAS FOC AIRCRAFT HANDED OVER TO THE IAF
28/05/2020
New Delhi, Wednesday, 27 May, 2020
( from IAF website for records)

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/tejas-foc-aircraft-handed-over-iaf

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Brad Goodman » 06 Jun 2020 07:08

I wish they station LCA on Andaman Islands and it keeps doing regular sorties across Malacca all the way upto cocos. We will see Chinese tremble :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Jun 2020 07:20

Indranil ji:

Any news on installing SPJ on Mk1 IOC & FOC?

I wouldn’t want to send them in battle without it

Thx in advance

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby skumar » 06 Jun 2020 07:49

Roop wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:TMK (with its unmatched ISR and technical capabilities) and Israel (the only country in the world with actual successful experience in this kind of mission) would go about the job of actual location and destruction of the "jewels". Actually, rather than the jewels themselves, what should be first on the target list is the Paki delivery systems (F16s and various flavours of missiles).


Israel defeated 6 Arab nations who were high, not professionals.

We have to depend on our own strengths and our enemies weaknesses.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 06 Jun 2020 11:10

Kakkaji wrote:Indranil ji:

Any news on installing SPJ on Mk1 IOC & FOC?

I wouldn’t want to send them in battle without it

Thx in advance

MoD said there are no plans of SPJ on Mk1. Not sure if that has changed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 06 Jun 2020 11:18

^^^
LCA Mk1A is basically a Mk1 with additional integrations. So at some point, look for Mk1 to be upgraded as well and brought up similar to Mk1A standard. Software can be upgraded, weapon qualifications can be ported over, innards can be rearranged and so on.


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