Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 23 Jun 2020 22:50

hemant_sai wrote:I m curious on why we r nt gng for 414 on Mk1A?
Till Dec 2017 - Tejas mk2 was lca with 414. It is gr8 that we branched out for MWF.
But same almost frozen airframe config of Dec 2017 can be used for Mk1A? Does 414 adds too much of cost?


I think the current intake design only caters to 404 engines... For 414, they need to redesign the intakes... Any change in basic design of air frame would mean lot more tests and further delay of the project...
Also, the power in 404 is enough for the Mk1A upgrade anyway...
So, they're going ahead with 404 only...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 23 Jun 2020 23:23

It is much more than just the intakes that need to be redesigned. The electrical systems would need to be redesigned too, due to the higher electrical power it would generate.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 24 Jun 2020 00:15

Even I wonder at times about the same. Lower fuel burn, much higher thrust, both dry (30%) and wet and hence better range, payload and more agility. It would also provide more electrical power, useful for AESA radar. Lesser hassel compared to Mk2 to realize. Would be interesting to compare expected metrics of GE414 in Mk1A wrt Mk2. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 24 Jun 2020 00:30

Thats basically the early design MK2 (with 0.5 plug, no canards and modest spec increase). Would have made eminent sense if we could designed and put it into production by now, and could have aimed for developing at this period ORCA/TEDBF now.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 24 Jun 2020 04:14

Current LCA Mk1 FOC is really good enough to replace the squadrons of retired MiG-21/27. So much better. Very cheap (~$30 million/unit). Could be bought in huge numbers even with a limited defense budget. A squadron of LCA Mk1 for the price of 3-4 Rafales, or 4 squadrons of LCA Mk1 for the price of 1 Rafale squadron. If numbers are required, LCA Mk1 is the way to go.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 24 Jun 2020 09:38

Raveen wrote:
basant wrote:I could be wrong. Thanks for the correction. :)


Basant, you are actually correct from the perspective of brakes



http://www.frpinstitute.org/pdf/Carbon- ... 20guru.pdf

Csaurabh is right, Tejas uses carbon-carbon matrix composites for brake pads (and other places). The PDF is a nice reference, with pics of process, equipment etc. I recommend it

Edit: Looks like Karan M posted this before, in 2015.
viewtopic.php?t=6964&start=3960#p1918324 and also posted
http://fgks.in/images/pdf/conf/Harinarayana.pdf

-----

A bit more detail on brake material (but only couple of pages are free). C/C composite brakes are also used in Formula 1, for example.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=JRg ... sc&f=false

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 24 Jun 2020 14:04

abhik wrote:Thats basically the early design MK2 (with 0.5 plug, no canards and modest spec increase). Would have made eminent sense if we could designed and put it into production by now, and could have aimed for developing at this period ORCA/TEDBF now.

Image

This is kind of non-descriptive image. It's not just improvements of aerodynamics that has resulted in higher payload (4.5T to 6.5T!). Something was sacrificed to get a bit of something else (apart from a few refinements, of course). May be Mk1.A could even supercruise with GE-414 (Gripen did in a demo!).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby hemant_sai » 24 Jun 2020 14:52

What my small brain understands that - it is simple case of keeping GE404-IN20 alive - rest are excuses. Otherwise there would have been plan for Mk1B for sure to accomodate GE414.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 24 Jun 2020 14:56

People,

Before hypothesising and guessing and what have you please read Indranil et al article on the LCA.

All your questions and musings have been addressed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 24 Jun 2020 15:14

^^^
To clarify, issue is not why and how MWF came about. It's about what Mk1.A with 414 would be capable of.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2020 04:21

Can any one help:

ramana wrote:
Nihat wrote:I'd suggest reading up on the interview with the chief test pilot of the LCA tejas program in Hush kit.

The LCA is fully combat ready but at the same time it's still an evolving and maturing platform. It's armed with astra and derby as a2a missiles and capable of undertaking CAP and limited penetrative ground strike missions including delivery of precision weapons.

As far as pushing it into the current crisis goes, if necessary it will be deployed but given that it's training and tactics are still evolving, this is not the most optimum option currently.


Please give this quote.
I thought Tejas was qualified with Derby only.
I don't know why both IAF and DRDO did not push for at least captive flights of Astra on Tejas.
Everything was only about Su-30MKI integration and Tejas later.

Thanks in advance.


A few factoids:
ADA wanted to integrate on Tejas Mk1. Would involve flight control software and a few changes.
HAL wants to integrate on 83 Mk1A. ADA says that is their internal matter.

Next set of reports say
IAF senior official in Jan 2020 says want to integrate Astra on Tejas as French not allowing Meteor integration on Israeli Radar.

This is end of June 2020. No reports of progress.
And we have hot borders.
Neither is HAL rushing out to produce the rest of FOC contract.

From talking to folks major tasks are :
1 Simulation
2 Dummy fit checks
3 Ground testing
4. Flight testing.
5. Certification by a CEMILAC.

And many sub-tasks under each major tasks.

And don't know status of the 50 Astra production?

Nor did the weapons mandrins in IAF agree to order more Astra!!!
After the March 2019 FizzleYa attack, first priority should be to ensure a better missile is ready for use in 18 months.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 25 Jun 2020 04:27

basant wrote:Even I wonder at times about the same. Lower fuel burn, much higher thrust, both dry (30%) and wet and hence better range, payload and more agility. It would also provide more electrical power, useful for AESA radar. Lesser hassel compared to Mk2 to realize. Would be interesting to compare expected metrics of GE414 in Mk1A wrt Mk2. :)

The 414 will use more fuel than the 404. The slightly higher SFC will be more than offset offset by the demands of the higher thrust generated by the engine. It would most certainly negatively impact range/endurance since the Mk1A has the same fuel capacity as the Mk1. Integrating the 414 in the Mk1A does not make sense. There would be changes needed to the air-intakes and electrical systems. Testing time necessary would be much greater as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 25 Jun 2020 10:13

nachiket wrote:The 414 will use more fuel than the 404. The slightly higher SFC will be more than offset offset by the demands of the higher thrust generated by the engine. It would most certainly negatively impact range/endurance since the Mk1A has the same fuel capacity as the Mk1.

I am not advocating for 414 in Mk1.A, just wondering. Also, 414 has 10% higher thrust with a penalty of weight about 3% weight (IN20 vs IN6). To me it should increase range, not the other way round.

To quote:
The new engine has increased thrust, an improved thrust-to-weight ratio of 9:1 and a 3- to 4-percent cruise-specific fuel consumption improvement over the F404-GE-400 engine.
...
It has 30 to 40 percent more thrust in the heart of the flight envelope to give the F/A-18E/F the advantage during close-in aerial combat, 25 to 30 percent more thrust supersonically for high altitude air combat intercept missions and over 40 percent more thrust for low-altitude air-to-ground missions where high speeds to and from the target area greatly enhance aircraft survivability.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 25 Jun 2020 10:25

GE404IN20 is improved version with 53.9 kN dry thrust and 89.8 kN wet thrust which is just 8% less thrust than GE414. The switch would have further delayed the project.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 25 Jun 2020 11:03

The inlet of Tejas mk1 is designed for 90 KN . For 98 kn of GE414 you would have to enlarge the inlet along with other modifications due to change in engine which would have delayed the project.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 25 Jun 2020 17:18

^^^
I am not suggesting that Mk2 should be dropped or Mk1.A must have 414. Just wondering what Mk1 airframe would be capable of with 414 (with whatever minimal changes warranted). Yes, it's about 8-10% of extra dry thrust and about 15% wet thrust, but the same has resulted in payload of 6.5T from 3.5 despite additional weight of Mk2 with 4T total AUW increase. My thoughts are academic, and I agree there is no point in continuing the discussion. IAF chose whatever was optimal set of performance metrics from the available set.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 27 Jun 2020 01:37

HOW ABOUT THAT!!! I love this picture. I don't know why :D

Image

From Sanjay Simha!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 27 Jun 2020 02:10

^^^
Lovely! Makes me feel as I am in the lead with Tejas as wingman! Is it a Su30?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2020 02:26

basant wrote:^^^
I am not suggesting that Mk2 should be dropped or Mk1.A must have 414. Just wondering what Mk1 airframe would be capable of with 414 (with whatever minimal changes warranted). Yes, it's about 8-10% of extra dry thrust and about 15% wet thrust, but the same has resulted in payload of 6.5T from 3.5 despite additional weight of Mk2 with 4T total AUW increase. My thoughts are academic, and I agree there is no point in continuing the discussion. IAF chose whatever was optimal set of performance metrics from the available set.



It will be a redesign. In that case better go for Mk1A and on to Mk2.

During mid life upgrade can consider that.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jun 2020 02:43

basant wrote:^^^
Lovely! Makes me feel as I am in the lead with Tejas as wingman! Is it a Su30?

It is a Su-30 and a fantastic picture indeed. Gorgeous!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 27 Jun 2020 02:52

IR sir is it even possible to bring up LSPs and PVs to IOC-FOC standard? I believe there are 4 PVs and 8 LSPs and this already makes about a good half squadron if not more. I understand each one of these were built to different standards however, if there is action these 12 birds can definitely help. Also it makes sense for ADA to upgrade them to final IOC or FOC build standard if MoD sanctions some money so that the border situation notwithstanding they have latest and the greatest internals for the birds for further testing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 27 Jun 2020 05:10

Indranil wrote:HOW ABOUT THAT!!! I love this picture. I don't know why :D

Image

From Sanjay Simha!


So beautiful!

Because it is SO rare to see air to air shots of the Tejas. And I firmly believe it is so much more elegant in the air than it is on the ground, which is where we see 90% of it's pics.

Even the twin seater looks very elegant in air to air shots, which are super rare. The only ones I've seen so far are the ones that Vishnu Som posted on Keypubs forum after his flight in a twin seater.

Looking for the higher res version of this image

Image
Last edited by Kartik on 27 Jun 2020 05:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 27 Jun 2020 05:16

Su-30MKI + MiG-21 Bison combo eventually replaced by Su-30MKI + LCA Tejas MK.1/A combo. Former pairing have been highly successful in air combat; LCA would bring in more modern capabilities.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 27 Jun 2020 16:49

HVT tweet
Smiles
@nishthavaan

@hvtiaf sir, could (modified) Tejas Mk1 with F414 (ie, first version of Mk2 with just 0.5m plug) have got supercruise ability? Gripen demonstrated already such an ability, so was wondering why the capability was not a priority.

+

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to @nishthavaan

Yes.
Mirage-2000 goes supersonic in dry power. Gripen is similar, without any stores or fuel tanks.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 28 Jun 2020 08:50

^^^
Even a Hawk AJT can go supersonic in a shallow dive.

“Super cruise” doesn’t mean a thing unless it can used in a combat mode.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 28 Jun 2020 10:16

srai wrote:^^^
Even a Hawk AJT can go supersonic in a shallow dive.

“Super cruise” doesn’t mean a thing unless it can used in a combat mode.



As a thumb rule, Super cruise is used to get there and get back faster (while expanding more fuel than subsonic cruise and less than afterburner), while actual combat doesn't preferably occur in cruise, super or not.

Of course, lots of exceptions..depending upon fuel, duration, tactical scenario etc

Probably a terminology issue..but still.. getting to your combat area from station keeping obviously matters. You probably meant with combat stores ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SaiK » 28 Jun 2020 10:22

higher super cruise with required payload, and max possible combat radius are all inversely proportional to each other.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 28 Jun 2020 12:11

Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 16:55

srai wrote:Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:

To travel fast, for whatever reasons. To bug out after firing weapons, quicker to deploy/transport and have higher speed even if it isn't supercruise. Also it shows that the a/c definitely would have more power that would definitely result in better WVR capability. It could pump in more power to the radar and EW too.

It's an optimisation problem and IAF selected whatever model it wanted. But remember that 1st model was based on the original spec!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jun 2020 18:15

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 20224?s=20 ----> HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end.

~via LiveFist

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2020 18:49

Another six months? Why? Effect of the pandemic?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 18:50


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 18:52

SSridhar wrote:Another six months? Why? Effect of the pandemic?

Pandemic can be for delay in deliveries running into months. Can't imagine the same for ordering!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 19:11

  1. Production was an issue year or two back
  2. 1st FOC delivered in 12 months
  3. Yet to get clearance for 8 trainers
  4. For current order: 8-10 a/c per year
  5. Target is 16 a/c per year and 2nd line is set up
  6. Can reach 16-20 with 83 order
  7. Expected order in Aug, but due to COVID-19 Finance Min may take 2-3 months more (hopefully Dec)
  8. LCA (single engine) was not for Navy. It was to prove technologies
  9. So looking for TEDBF and ADA started work
  10. Expect 6-7 years only as it is an iteration (as happened in ALH)
  11. LCA Mk.2,TEDBF,AMCA: 3-4 years for prototype, 3-4 year to prove out
  12. AMCA: Production through a new company (special vehicle b/w HAL, DRDO and private partner)
  13. AMCA first prototype by 2026/7 (it contradicts above statement)
  14. MRCA: CAS was catagorical that 114 a/c won't be junked. RFI, RFQ and making SQR will be more difficult than that of MMRCA
  15. Desine engine: 110KN, getting into it. It will be new one based on Kaveri and a foreign OEM, lead by GRTE

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 19:50

https://twitter.com/TonboImaging/status/1261180365160370177
two issues: defaulting on payments owed to tonbo and mass cancellation of contracts


"With mass cancellations of key defence procurements, @PMO
india's call for #AatmaNirbharBharat isn't quite starting in the govt corridors. Here's our urgent plea and open letter to @narendramodi
@HMOIndia @DefenceMinIndia @SpokespersonMoD @NorthernComd_IA @makeinindia @minmsme"



Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 28 Jun 2020 21:49

This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?
Last edited by Barath on 28 Jun 2020 22:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby prasan » 28 Jun 2020 21:49



HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end. :(( :(( :((

~via LiveFist

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 3383220224

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 28 Jun 2020 21:57

srai wrote:Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:


Helps you get to the scene of the crash faster, as the old chopper joke has it. :wink:

As basanth said, it can have some utility even without external weapons (exit the area, come in to use guns, especially cas/coin, recon,..internal weapons for 5th gen ).. but that wasn't the point of the comment anyway

Supersonic is actually pretty rare and relatively short lived, with the old story about the Concorde having more time supersonic than all the world's air forces (don't recall if that statement predated sr-71 publicity). Supercruise has been around for several decades but has not always been specified over that period . Subsonic is usually best for range. The current tejas can do with longer legs..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Jun 2020 22:19

prasan wrote:
HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end. :(( :(( :((

~via LiveFist

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 3383220224


What crap! This should have been part of the COVID-19 stimulus. An order for 200 LCA Tejas Mk1A to be delivered in 3 years. It appears Tejas is being setup to fail. Might as well give the Chinese all of Ladakh and spend money on health care and education.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 28 Jun 2020 22:59

order of 20,000 Tejas. Sorry you are not patriotic enough (I have more zeros than you)


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