Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 10:56

TushS wrote:Image

Beautiful image. I see no cockpit visibility problem in Tejas.

Who said there were?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2020 11:04

@fanne where are you getting 50% number from? IIRC the local content is much higher, around 70% or so.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 11:17

arvin wrote:
vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.


:roll: By your logic we should just buy more MKIs since they are field deployed and ready.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 12:09

vimal wrote:
arvin wrote:
Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.


:roll: By your logic we should just buy more MKIs since they are field deployed and ready.


Do you see MKI anywhere in my post. ?or you really think GOI will order MKI in place of MK1A now.
MK1A has crossed price negotiations stage and that means finer details of what goes into it have been ironed out. If the CMD of HAL says it will be signed by year end who are we to say sign it now. And since it is not signed attribute creative reasons for it. If it is not signed how can money be allocated to it.
Your post had S400 and MK1A in the same context of money availability. And I said Money is not an issue here.
If you say dont spend on S400 until MK 1A is signed what is the solution for engaging air threats beyond the range of 100 km ( limit of LRSAM) and upto 400 km(limit of 40N6E) that can be immediately shipped. Does DRDO have anything like S400.
GOI and HAL are better placed to decide when to sign the order and if they say 6 months for whatever reasons we need to accept it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 12:16

Comrade Arvin, read the last few pages and educate yourself. MK1A order has been delayed due to fund crunch but for some reason we never seem to have any fund crunch when buying foreign maal. That was the point I was trying to make before you jumped in to defend russi maal.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jun 2020 12:17

GOI slow plans towards local weapons production means we will be import dependent for many years to come.

While China and Pakistan are over arming themselves, we are always into expensive imports which buy a limited defensive capability.

These are Jackals and Hyenas, especially Pakistan - which unless we split it into small dependent states will always be waiting for moment of weakness, it has been like this for 1000 years yet Indians do not learn.

Only a good manufacturing base with good MIC will work for our strategic defensive needs- we have good product in MK1- let the production ecosystem pick up speed, with orders we find the nits and gritties so that at least 10 years or 15 years later we are not in the same perilous state.

39000 crores with 8000 crores a year extra capex when emergency purchases last year 15000 crores, this another 10-15K crores is small change.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jun 2020 12:32

The only way to get out of this conundrum is

1. Separate the tsp from the chicoms by controlling key areas in PoK

2. Reducing interest rates and using QE to get extra funding for defence investments. We have to get over the hump, and can't do it because there's always a last moment emergency...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2020 14:02

Aditya_V wrote:GOI slow plans towards local weapons production means we will be import dependent for many years to come.

While China and Pakistan are over arming themselves, we are always into expensive imports which buy a limited defensive capability.

These are Jackals and Hyenas, especially Pakistan - which unless we split it into small dependent states will always be waiting for moment of weakness, it has been like this for 1000 years yet Indians do not learn.

Only a good manufacturing base with good MIC will work for our strategic defensive needs- we have good product in MK1- let the production ecosystem pick up speed, with orders we find the nits and gritties so that at least 10 years or 15 years later we are not in the same perilous state.

39000 crores with 8000 crores a year extra capex when emergency purchases last year 15000 crores, this another 10-15K crores is small change.


We are under spending at least 30K crores compared to historic numbers (capex vs GDP). This is not something we can continue doing without hurting both defence preparedness and domestic MIC (imports have first rights to resources) - need to bite the bullet now. Also we need to massively ramp up the the spend on R&D to at least 25% of capex, and ensure that majority goes to funding private (or PSUs on a level playing field).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2020 22:56

arvin wrote:For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Who is they? The delay in the Mk1A contract as per last reports was because HAL and the MoD could not agree on the price. HAL was quoting too much. But that was resolved and the price negotiations concluded. Now it is the usual complicated bureaucratic process that we have to wait for where moving a file from the left side of a desk to the right is a major step and takes weeks before being passed on to the next desk...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 23:34

By they I mean HAL. Its a significant design change internaly with AESA, LRU, panels, RWR etc my guess is they are holding off the contract signing till things are sorted out. I dont think its a bureaucratic issue.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 01 Jul 2020 04:07

vimal wrote:Comrade Arvin, read the last few pages and educate yourself. MK1A order has been delayed due to fund crunch but for some reason we never seem to have any fund crunch when buying foreign maal. That was the point I was trying to make before you jumped in to defend russi maal.



What's the fund disbursement schedule for Tejas? Obviously Tejas needs early long lead items procurement for LRUS and fuselage parts at sub contractors. And then assembly, integrate and test prior to delivery.

So how does GOI pay?
And what role does IAF have here?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 01 Jul 2020 04:41

nachiket wrote:
arvin wrote:For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Who is they? The delay in the Mk1A contract as per last reports was because HAL and the MoD could not agree on the price. HAL was quoting too much. But that was resolved and the price negotiations concluded. Now it is the usual complicated bureaucratic process that we have to wait for where moving a file from the left side of a desk to the right is a major step and takes weeks before being passed on to the next desk...


As per HAL CMD R Madhavan, the file is now with the Finance Ministry and after that will go to the CCS for approval and then it'll be done. Expected by December. :(

Anyway, HAL is moving ahead and not waiting for contract signature to start work on the Mk1A. There are plenty of activities that need to be done on HAL's end anyway for the first prototype to be rolled out and flown.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 01 Jul 2020 04:42

arvin wrote:By they I mean HAL. Its a significant design change internaly with AESA, LRU, panels, RWR etc my guess is they are holding off the contract signing till things are sorted out. I dont think its a bureaucratic issue.


HAL isn't holding off on it, the file is with the Ministry of Finance now.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 02:41

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12782 ... 31648?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk-2, TEDBF & AMCA D&D in progress in India by ADA. Not sure what strategic benefit an imported 4th gen aircraft would provide in the future. Happy to learn about any specific merits please.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12782 ... 23682?s=20 ---> Excellent is the biggest enemy of good. The Indian fighter aircraft is Good. Many new variants on the anvil. Time will tell, which ones will prevail. Perhaps we'll be Excellent someday. Full regard for voices of criticism against Indian products and agencies.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 02:46

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12783 ... 94528?s=20 ---> Tejas is a huge strategic achievement. Every foreign competitor is at his wits end, trying to bring down the Tejas success story. Not going to happen. Tejas has already endured enough onslaught from outside and within.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby idan » 02 Jul 2020 03:16

When HAL's product development is inextricably linked to MoD, funding delays are bound to happen. HAL should raise $5 billion from open market to fund product/MVP development, only then we will see massive ramp up otherwise this rona dhona will continue ad-infinitum

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby agupta » 02 Jul 2020 03:56

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12782 ... 31648?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk-2, TEDBF & AMCA D&D in progress in India by ADA. Not sure what strategic benefit an imported 4th gen aircraft would provide in the future. Happy to learn about any specific merits please.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12782 ... 23682?s=20 ---> Excellent is the biggest enemy of good. The Indian fighter aircraft is Good. Many new variants on the anvil. Time will tell, which ones will prevail. Perhaps we'll be Excellent someday. Full regard for voices of criticism against Indian products and agencies.

His statement re. "D&D ..Progress" is spot on. DESIGN and DEVELOPMENT. And we don't even need to be "excellent" ... just good enough, believable and reliable. I get a very warm feeling about the maturity of the ecosystem in how they are planning in the 4th gen platform evolution; Mk1 - Mk1A - Mk2, with off-ramps for TEDBF...and if/when it makes sense even an ORCA variant. Inevitably that last bit will be a function of how far/fast AMCA goes.

But everyone should be fully cognizant that D&D alone does not deliver a weapon system to the warfighter. At least 3 more elements need to work - COMMERCIAL, MANUFACTURING and SERVICES.... and then all this goodness hits HAL's Achilles heel. Hopefully somehow/somewhere there needs to be a KH equivalent drafted into HAL's non-technical leadership side who'll clean out the gau-shala(s).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jul 2020 04:10

'Flying Dagger' Tejas Mk1 with Derby, R-73E and 2 drop tanks. The first known pic of an operational Tejas with the Derby!

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jul 2020 04:32

^^^
Nice!

So that would mean IOC aircraft are already getting FOC upgrades incorporated.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jul 2020 05:22

Hopefully. Need to see an Elta ELL-8222 SPJ as well and then the fleet should be at a point where No.45 Squadron can move to a forward air base or at least detachments can be sent out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jul 2020 05:42

From HVT's Twitter feed. Looking good!

The next decade will see this becoming a more common sight as more Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A fighters join the IAF.

Image

Older prototypes, not Series Production Tejas fighters. Those aren't Cobham radomes.
Last edited by Kartik on 02 Jul 2020 05:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Jul 2020 05:43

Kartik wrote:'Flying Dagger' Tejas Mk1 with Derby, R-73E and 2 drop tanks. The first known pic of an operational Tejas with the Derby!



At least 200 of these are needed as of yesterday! Much cheaper than buying the Russian and French lawn darts. The PLAAF and TSPAF combined can't take on the IAF!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jul 2020 05:44

Russian and French lawn darts? TBF, the attrition rate of both the Su-30MKI, MiG-29 as well as the French Mirage-2000 is very respectable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jul 2020 07:14

Kartik wrote:Hopefully. Need to see an Elta ELL-8222 SPJ as well and then the fleet should be at a point where No.45 Squadron can move to a forward air base or at least detachments can be sent out.

I don’t think SPJ would dictate forward deployments. Historically, most IAF fighter types didn’t have SPJs. Even those that have SPJ option don’t always carry it. WC Abhi’s MiG-21 Bison didn’t carry one during post-Balakot air action.

For a point defense fighter located very close to the border and intercepting enemy fighters at short notice and distance (within 20 km), SPJ may not always be useful for combat. WC Abhi’s MiG-21 was engaged at less than 10km, while he shot down F-16 at around 18km. All within visual combat ranges.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 02 Jul 2020 08:10

srai wrote:For a point defense fighter located very close to the border and intercepting enemy fighters at short notice and distance (within 20 km), SPJ may not always be useful for combat. WC Abhi’s MiG-21 was engaged at less than 10km, while he shot down F-16 at around 18km. All within visual combat ranges.

That was a very specific scenario though. The combat may play out very differently the next time. They need to get it integrated asap. Not sure what the delay is exactly. Maybe someone can ask that to HVT sir on Twitter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rs_singh » 02 Jul 2020 10:14

nachiket wrote:
srai wrote:For a point defense fighter located very close to the border and intercepting enemy fighters at short notice and distance (within 20 km), SPJ may not always be useful for combat. WC Abhi’s MiG-21 was engaged at less than 10km, while he shot down F-16 at around 18km. All within visual combat ranges.

That was a very specific scenario though. The combat may play out very differently the next time. They need to get it integrated asap. Not sure what the delay is exactly. Maybe someone can ask that to HVT sir on Twitter.


SPJs and LWRs are absolutely needed on all platforms moving forward. As for our bison, all I’ll say is, if there is one aircraft which continuously surprised our mock “adversary” in umpteen simulated combats with foreign Afs its the bison. That being said, I also strongly feel it’s time for the bison to hang up its boots and for Tejas to take over. Do watch the fighter pilot podcast with bundal Tyagi on the mig 21 here:

https://youtu.be/3h39k7BRe0w

Mods, feel free to delete if OT or redundant.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rs_singh » 02 Jul 2020 10:45

Kartik wrote:'Flying Dagger' Tejas Mk1 with Derby, R-73E and 2 drop tanks. The first known pic of an operational Tejas with the Derby!

Why not Astra?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 02 Jul 2020 10:53

Kartik wrote:'Flying Dagger' Tejas Mk1 with Derby, R-73E and 2 drop tanks. The first known pic of an operational Tejas with the Derby!

It could be first FOC too, right? I mean tail# is not visible.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SSridhar » 02 Jul 2020 11:00

^ Because it is Flying Daggers, not Bullets.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jul 2020 23:07

basant wrote:
Kartik wrote:'Flying Dagger' Tejas Mk1 with Derby, R-73E and 2 drop tanks. The first known pic of an operational Tejas with the Derby!

It could be first FOC too, right? I mean tail# is not visible.


Tail number isn't visible, but where the Main Landing Gear doors are, one can see the number '14'. That's SP-14, with the 'Flying Daggers'.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 03 Jul 2020 01:36

abhik wrote:@fanne where are you getting 50% number from? IIRC the local content is much higher, around 70% or so.

by part yes, by cost LCA is still 50% foreign. And you can see the dilemma, as we develop more, what is left will slowly become slightly costlier. Another way to look it is that unlike China, who do not have access to the best in world, we have some access (mainly to European/Israeli if not US system) and we are buying the best of subsystem that would make LCA all the more lethal
-Engine (no choice, but F404/F414 is best in class)
- Radar (2052, better than in development Uttam, key word in development, cheap, less effective than costlier French radar)
-EW/Helmet etc.
- Actuators (do we make them? or imported from, Moog?)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 03 Jul 2020 01:50

Actuators..Yes by Godrej.

The LCA Tejas isn't just about protecting our nation. It's about doing it ourselves.⁣

At Godrej Aerospace, we gave the Tejas, the multirole light fighter, another boost in the wings by manufacturing the first Indian aircraft actuators. These actuators, designed by ADA/DRDO, were successfully tested across all altitudes and speeds of operation, on the 28th of May, 2020. ⁣

Congratulations, India.⁣

#GodrejAndBoyce⁣
#LCATejas #Tejas

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... s=scwsplos

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 01:54

ashishvikas wrote:The LCA Tejas isn't just about protecting our nation. It's about doing it ourselves.⁣

+108 to you!!!

That is what causes the greatest takleef and heartburn to the OEMs and to some on the forum.

If we can do it ourselves, the gravy train will stop.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Y I Patel » 03 Jul 2020 02:05

Some of you are extremely good at picking up innocuous looking details, and you probably take it for granted that some things are obvious. In this example, an operational detail is involved... At a sensitive time like this, it might be better to rejoice quietly.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Y I Patel » 03 Jul 2020 02:11

Might I suggest that some really high quality posts should be deleted because they are too informative?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2020 02:41

No. Because let them celebrate and cheer the lurkers.
No need to admonish good news.

Ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Avtar Singh » 03 Jul 2020 18:29

Back in the day of sanctions, if my memory serves me.. reported on this forum
Did not the belgium parliament? debate/deny? the sale of some actuators? hydraulic?
to India... LCA

Well where is belgium now? Full of 5+ presidents of the EU and islamics = worthless

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2020 19:12

Kartik wrote:
basant wrote:It could be first FOC too, right? I mean tail# is not visible.


Tail number isn't visible, but where the Main Landing Gear doors are, one can see the number '14'. That's SP-14, with the 'Flying Daggers'.

So IOC aircraft are BVR capable but restricted to Derby, while FOC aircraft probably can carry Astra and Derby ER.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby KL Dubey » 03 Jul 2020 21:33

Rakesh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:The LCA Tejas isn't just about protecting our nation. It's about doing it ourselves.⁣

+108 to you!!!

That is what causes the greatest takleef and heartburn to the OEMs and to some on the forum.

If we can do it ourselves, the gravy train will stop.


The engine seems the last frontier.....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 21:35

KL Dubey wrote:The engine seems the last frontier.....

We will get there.


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