Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2020 22:58

I believe the initial lot of F-16V is already operational in Taiwan.

How Taiwan's fighter pilots, and its most advanced jets, keep watch on China around the clock
https://www.businessinsider.com/on-taiw ... ess-2020-1
15 Jan 2020

Their scramble into the air was only a drill before an audience of journalists. But for Taiwan's Air Force and its most advanced fighters, the newly upgraded F-16V, the threat from China across the narrow Taiwan Strait is very real.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3547
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 19 Aug 2020 23:06

you guys know why Taiwan does not get the crown jewels - It is crawling with PLA sympathizers. The average Taiwanese will perhaps fight the chicoms but they have a huge number of CCP sympathizers (at all levels) that keep on passing secrets to PLA.
They will get enough, but not the best.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 19 Aug 2020 23:19

Rakesh wrote:I believe the initial lot of F-16V is already operational in Taiwan.

Those are legacy F-16s upgraded to the V standard.

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Neela » 19 Aug 2020 23:32

fanne wrote:you guys know why Taiwan does not get the crown jewels - It is crawling with PLA sympathizers. The average Taiwanese will perhaps fight the chicoms but they have a huge number of CCP sympathizers (at all levels) that keep on passing secrets to PLA.
They will get enough, but not the best.

One more generation...just one more generation. Anyway...OT

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9270
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 20 Aug 2020 00:37

fanne wrote:you guys know why Taiwan does not get the crown jewels - It is crawling with PLA sympathizers. The average Taiwanese will perhaps fight the chicoms but they have a huge number of CCP sympathizers (at all levels) that keep on passing secrets to PLA.
They will get enough, but not the best.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2455053#p2455053

Shekhar Singh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 22
Joined: 16 Sep 2018 14:55

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Shekhar Singh » 20 Aug 2020 15:29

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 01031?s=19 ---> Yes Folks, "HOMEGROWN" FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. Here is my info graphic on indigenous content in LCA Tejas Mk1 (around 60% by value fraction).

Image

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1835
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby yensoy » 20 Aug 2020 17:17

^^^^ Again misses the fundamental part that the design and IP of the aircraft belongs to us. We don't need anybody's permission to change things, or to replace items, or to indigenize the remaining imported components. Instead, the 60% number will be used to bash HAL and LCA project.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2020 19:05

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I believe the initial lot of F-16V is already operational in Taiwan.

Those are legacy F-16s upgraded to the V standard.

Thank You Brar.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2020 19:05

Shekhar Singh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1296309247676801031?s=19 ---> Yes Folks, "HOMEGROWN" FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. Here is my info graphic on indigenous content in LCA Tejas Mk1 (around 60% by value fraction).

https://twitter.com/Jay_premnath/status ... 47969?s=20 ---> Compare it to this mess! We would be dealing with a logistical nightmare if we buy the Gripen.

Image

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2020 19:15

Regarding the GSH 23 mm cannon- its definately Russian origin but I think TOday we manufacture both gun and Ammo in India by OFB- am I wrong?

naird
BRFite
Posts: 281
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 19:41

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 20 Aug 2020 20:56

https://theprint.in/defence/as-tejas-begins-flying-near-pakistan-border-iaf-hal-join-hands-to-boost-lca-availability/485159/

The first time the Tejas went in for “operational deployment” was after the Balakot strikes against a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp in Pakistan last year.

At the time, the IAF had deployed nine Tejas aircraft at the Jaisalmer base but had to eventually make do with two because of low availability, sources said. “Out of the nine aircraft, only two were available the last time,” a source added.Both HAL and IAF are working together to ensure higher availability, the sources said.


Interesting tidbit ! IAF-HAL is sorting out the operational challenges !

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3547
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 20 Aug 2020 23:26

could be hit job from Print

chiru
BRFite
Posts: 206
Joined: 17 Jun 2009 12:46
Location: mahishooru

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chiru » 20 Aug 2020 23:37

naird wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/as-tejas-begins-flying-near-pakistan-border-iaf-hal-join-hands-to-boost-lca-availability/485159/

The first time the Tejas went in for “operational deployment” was after the Balakot strikes against a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp in Pakistan last year.

At the time, the IAF had deployed nine Tejas aircraft at the Jaisalmer base but had to eventually make do with two because of low availability, sources said. “Out of the nine aircraft, only two were available the last time,” a source added.Both HAL and IAF are working together to ensure higher availability, the sources said.



Sources strike again!

LCA has already proven it's mettle in GAGAN SHAKTI, generating 6 sorties per day

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://wap.business-standard.com/article-amp/current-affairs/tejas-proves-its-mettle-in-biggest-indian-war-exercise-gagan-shakti-2018-118042500089_1.html&ved=2ahUKEwj69ueAqarrAhWgxDgGHSrcBnUQFjABegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2jVr2Cdm4pC9VOW8JvpOfy&ampcf=1

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7008
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Anujan » 21 Aug 2020 00:16

HAL and IAF will sort it out.

What was the availability of MKI 15 years after induction?

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby k prasad » 21 Aug 2020 01:16

naird wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/as-tejas-begins-flying-near-pakistan-border-iaf-hal-join-hands-to-boost-lca-availability/485159/

The first time the Tejas went in for “operational deployment” was after the Balakot strikes against a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp in Pakistan last year.

At the time, the IAF had deployed nine Tejas aircraft at the Jaisalmer base but had to eventually make do with two because of low availability, sources said. “Out of the nine aircraft, only two were available the last time,” a source added.Both HAL and IAF are working together to ensure higher availability, the sources said.



Not unexpected, considering it is an aircraft thats only recently been inducted and is recently combat deployed. Its honestly a good thing that they had to deal with combat deployment issues early on... the logistics and maintenance teams will be much better prepared now.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3547
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 21 Aug 2020 02:03

Treat Coupta as a tsp citizen and his magazine no better than Shreelin Mazari's publication (both prostitute of ISI). When you read things from that perspective (and contempt) things will make more sense

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2488
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 21 Aug 2020 03:06

The other data point is Gaganshakti where Tejas availability was very high. Why use an unnamed source? If it is correct, IAF needs to speak it out with their names attributed to the report. Or else it is Fake news.

In any case compare this to the newly deployed fighters that had a lot more issues. So telling only half the story should be treated with contempt and the write accused of treason.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Aug 2020 05:59

Vivek K wrote:The other data point is Gaganshakti where Tejas availability was very high. Why use an unnamed source? If it is correct, IAF needs to speak it out with their names attributed to the report. Or else it is Fake news.

In any case compare this to the newly deployed fighters that had a lot more issues. So telling only half the story should be treated with contempt and the write accused of treason.



Vivek. Maybe the IAF gave the whole story and the journalist selectively used the quote..This happens quite a bit and believe you me since I was in the journalism profession.

So I would say treat these articles like a pinch of salt.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Aug 2020 06:00

chiru wrote:
naird wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/as-tejas-begins-flying-near-pakistan-border-iaf-hal-join-hands-to-boost-lca-availability/485159/

The first time the Tejas went in for “operational deployment” was after the Balakot strikes against a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp in Pakistan last year.

At the time, the IAF had deployed nine Tejas aircraft at the Jaisalmer base but had to eventually make do with two because of low availability, sources said. “Out of the nine aircraft, only two were available the last time,” a source added.Both HAL and IAF are working together to ensure higher availability, the sources said.



Sources strike again!

LCA has already proven it's mettle in GAGAN SHAKTI, generating 6 sorties per day

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://wap.business-standard.com/article-amp/current-affairs/tejas-proves-its-mettle-in-biggest-indian-war-exercise-gagan-shakti-2018-118042500089_1.html&ved=2ahUKEwj69ueAqarrAhWgxDgGHSrcBnUQFjABegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2jVr2Cdm4pC9VOW8JvpOfy&ampcf=1


You are comparing apples and oranges sir....

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Aug 2020 06:01

k prasad wrote:
naird wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/as-tejas-begins-flying-near-pakistan-border-iaf-hal-join-hands-to-boost-lca-availability/485159/

The first time the Tejas went in for “operational deployment” was after the Balakot strikes against a Jaish-e-Mohammed training camp in Pakistan last year.

At the time, the IAF had deployed nine Tejas aircraft at the Jaisalmer base but had to eventually make do with two because of low availability, sources said. “Out of the nine aircraft, only two were available the last time,” a source added.Both HAL and IAF are working together to ensure higher availability, the sources said.



Not unexpected, considering it is an aircraft thats only recently been inducted and is recently combat deployed. Its honestly a good thing that they had to deal with combat deployment issues early on... the logistics and maintenance teams will be much better prepared now.



100%..

Combat deployment and Gaganshakti deployment are two different kettles of fish!!!!

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2488
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 21 Aug 2020 06:58

Ok - can you back that up with the differences in an exercise vs operational environment? What changes - expectations of performance are the same.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Aug 2020 07:41

Vivek K wrote:Ok - can you back that up with the differences in an exercise vs operational environment? What changes - expectations of performance are the same.



An exercise is planned well in advance while the expectation of performance is the same the foundations of that performance are a lot more solid.

The logistics planning is a very core part of that and in the case of a new platform certain additional fail-safes could be taken.

Deployment in anger or where there is very little reaction can sometimes throw up unexpected situation that all the planning / strategising in the world did not. Sometimes planners will also have to take calculated risks - that may or may not pay off.

What I am saying is that LCA did fantastically well in Gaganshakti.
That does not mean that it has to do well in Op Deployment - especially as this is the first such deployment. This is a new platform and we will keep learning about its charms as the marriage of the LCA and the IAF becomes stronger. Some fantastic and seductive charms and some not so good.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 21 Aug 2020 08:13

^^Example would be IAF deploying the Su-30's in international exercises and maintaining high availability rates even when overall availability of the fleet was at ~55%.

If we remember, it took considerable effort and personal attention by Parrikar ji to improve the Su-30 availability by even 10%. And this was more than a decade after induction.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1177
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby shaun » 21 Aug 2020 09:23

fanne wrote:could be hit job from Print

Yes definitely ...when is the last time you heard about exact number of aircraft from IAF inventory, deployed and the ORPs out of them. IAF have shown its confidence by deploying tejas in a forward base recently

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2659
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Aug 2020 09:48

Its definitely a hit job because the *real news* was the forward deployment of Tejas. That's made to look like a side-show with the focus on "operational issues", as if its something unique to Tejas. As posters have stated above, these are teething troubles that every aircraft/air-force goes through

When were such issues of other aircraft discussed in "The Print" or other rags, especially right after deployment? Wonder who paid them and how much to carry this article.

Coupta is vermin

chetonzz
BRFite
Posts: 103
Joined: 18 Mar 2019 11:11

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chetonzz » 21 Aug 2020 09:51

<self delete>
Last edited by chetonzz on 21 Aug 2020 17:45, edited 1 time in total.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 21 Aug 2020 17:08

ks_sachin wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Ok - can you back that up with the differences in an exercise vs operational environment? What changes - expectations of performance are the same.



An exercise is planned well in advance while the expectation of performance is the same the foundations of that performance are a lot more solid.

The logistics planning is a very core part of that and in the case of a new platform certain additional fail-safes could be taken.

Deployment in anger or where there is very little reaction can sometimes throw up unexpected situation that all the planning / strategising in the world did not. Sometimes planners will also have to take calculated risks - that may or may not pay off.

What I am saying is that LCA did fantastically well in Gaganshakti.
That does not mean that it has to do well in Op Deployment - especially as this is the first such deployment. This is a new platform and we will keep learning about its charms as the marriage of the LCA and the IAF becomes stronger. Some fantastic and seductive charms and some not so good.


Good points Sir but when the article said only 02 out of 09 deployed were available, it sounded a big time figment of imagination. Sqn will be declared non ops if these happen. Maybe on one particular instance of deployment this might have happened but not for the entire deployment.

I will go with Option A, the only option, Print is lying. Hence "Sources".

BTW, IAF PRO these dins is a coursemate. So "Sources" even I got. My Source says "Coupta is smokin' schidt from own pot". Let's see how can Coupta counter my "Sources".

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2488
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 21 Aug 2020 18:53

Thanks Deejay. Would love to know the truth about our baby.

My point Sachin was that you keep things (logistics, men and materials) at the ready in an AirForce for war. It is like an afterburner. The performance of every individual is to be at the peek to keep all aircraft running around the clock.So wartime availability should be expected to be higher than peace time routine availability.

The only reason for this not to happen would be that the type was not yet "operational" - i.e. have men and materials available at the ready to support war like scenario. And for the IAF to move it to forward bases means that it has now accumulated all required men and materials to support round the clock operations of the type.

That is my understanding as an engineer. I'm hoping that the IAF has even higher "operational" standards.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1549
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Aug 2020 19:46

Vivek K wrote:Thanks Deejay. Would love to know the truth about our baby.

My point Sachin was that you keep things (logistics, men and materials) at the ready in an AirForce for war. It is like an afterburner. The performance of every individual is to be at the peek to keep all aircraft running around the clock.So wartime availability should be expected to be higher than peace time routine availability.

The only reason for this not to happen would be that the type was not yet "operational" - i.e. have men and materials available at the ready to support war like scenario. And for the IAF to move it to forward bases means that it has now accumulated all required men and materials to support round the clock operations of the type.

That is my understanding as an engineer. I'm hoping that the IAF has even higher "operational" standards.


Ok.
I will sleep better tonight knowing that a squadron is war ready 24/7/365 from a men/women/material perspective.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 21 Aug 2020 20:44

Coupta's agenda has been consistent throughout. To push Yank gear into the IAF via the MMRCA. That was his deal and still is. All his and his chamcha's reportage has to be seen in that light. Remember picking up that DFI blogger and pushing his article to have the MWF cancelled. The same logic. The LCA and Su-30 etc all are issues when seen from that light. Don't believe anything he and his chamchas write.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8228
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 22 Aug 2020 02:49

Just wondering: What are "fixed tanks"?

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3829
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 22 Aug 2020 02:58

IR Sir may be Mihir is the best to give a witty reply w.r.t fixed tanks. I believe it is like the tank in the scooter, when you are in reserve probably tilt the plane a little bit and you can go until next fuel depot. BTW, I like the reply from DJ sir sources sources sources just to make things look credible.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 22 Aug 2020 03:06

What is this fixed tanks business now?

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3829
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 22 Aug 2020 03:11

Nachiket Sir it is in the last lines in the print article

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 22 Aug 2020 04:20

suryag wrote:Nachiket Sir it is in the last lines in the print article

Ah I hadn't bothered to read that trash earlier but I did now. Here's the line :

The IOC Tejas currently carries two fixed tanks of 1,200- and 800-litre capacity. The FOC variants, meanwhile, not only get larger tanks but also mid-air refuelling capability.


Even assuming that he meant drop tanks and mistyped, this is nonsense. There are no new drop tanks with more fuel capacity than the 1200 l ones available and even if there were there is no reason why only FOC std. aircraft would be able to carry them.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 22 Aug 2020 05:04

Indranil wrote:Just wondering: What are "fixed tanks"?

Do not bother. Fixed Tanks are similar to Thermoclines :)

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Aug 2020 07:29

:rotfl: Fixed tanks are the new torsion bars :rotfl:

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Aug 2020 11:41

^ As per the source, the Tejas will primarily take care of " Border Dynamics."

Is this, then, the origin of the famous Paki saying:

"F-16 is superior to LCA Tejas as it a a multi role aircraft built by General Dynamics, while Tejas is built by HAL for Border Dynamics ?"

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 564
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby MeshaVishwas » 28 Aug 2020 09:52

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/129 ... 92935?s=20
Frauds that the program had to endure. Just a reminder.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 28 Aug 2020 10:04

^^ Exactly. Just make sure you know who is truly on your own side.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Lisa and 65 guests