Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 26 Oct 2019 03:13

agupta wrote:...
Very specifically - what orders/funds and for what was being withheld ? For this I cannot find ANYTHING when I try to.
...


Here you go.

HAL reports record Rs 19,400 crore turnover, but IAF still to pay its bills
...
However, the IAF still owes HAL about Rs 20,000 crore in unpaid dues for aircraft delivered and overhauled and for milestone payments due, Business Standard learns.
...


The news was circulating around April 2019. Might be resolved by now?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vidur » 26 Oct 2019 15:09

ramana wrote:Maybe vidur can tell us?


1. Payment as per contract is responsibility of the contracting party which in most cases is Government of India. Raksha Mantralaya administers the contracts including payment.
2. Funds come from the annual budget as per Finance Bill.
3. Services enter into contracts directly in some cases mostly for local rations, minor repair works to buildings, and procurement of some non operational needs - tables, chairs, some items of clothing etc. Funding comes from budget as per point 2
4. Services do not have significant control on budgets and finances. For example, CDA (Controller Defence Accounts) IDAS cadre manages all pay, pensions and reimbursement of TA/DA (Travel Allowance/Daily Allowance on travel). They do a terrible job of this. Recently they refused to pay entitled reimbursements of travel expenses (train tickets, air tickets where authorised, daily food allowance) military personnel who are on sanctioned official duties citing lack of funds. I was personally astonished and shocked at this. If they had dared to do this to Civil Service officers the entire government machinery would have been brought to a halt. Armed Forces were not happy and their confidence was jolted. Some incidents happened. Damage has been done.
5. Press reports of 'large' outstanding dues to HAL are incorrect.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Oct 2019 20:03

^^ Vidur ji, is there no concept of deposit works in MoD contracts? A couple of tranches of advance and the with reimburaement of expenditure and recovery of advance with running account statements?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 27 Oct 2019 17:47

Mort Walker wrote:Lack of independence comes from continually purchasing foreign weapon systems. Be it French, Russian or American. The GE engine is the most reliable in the world until such engines can be made domestically. The Tejas at this stage will get a big push with the GE F404 and F414 engines that will give extensive knowledge and expertise.

Sanctions on GE engines would be the least of the IAF and IN worries. Spares on the C-17, C-130, Seahawk, Chinooks, Apaches, and 20 or so P-8Is would be the bigger problem. Yet, GoI continues to buy defensive and now offensive weapon systems from US Mil contractors through the FMS route.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, it is not the sanctions that is really worrisome...but rather the lack of independence. Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) has said the same thing. Investing in our own engine program is the only path forward. I am sure you have read by now in the Kaveri thread....the JETJWG (Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group) has come to an end. Last September there was a strategic pause and now a year later, that entire working group has come to an end. We either make our own engine or rely on the Americans for the F404 and F414.

The easiest path (importing) is not always the best path.

France offers help to revive 'desi' jet engine project
https://www.zeebiz.com/india/news-franc ... ect-112371

"Whatever the cost of availing the French (or US) consultancy in terms of 'know-how' and 'know-why' of making the Kaveri a viable jet engine, it will be far cheaper than importing 200-300 engines from abroad and of never acquiring the precious capability of making one ourselves. Besides, India, as an emerging power just cannot forever afford the 'strategic cost' of depending on foreign sources for aero-engines," former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash told IANS.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ManuJ » 28 Oct 2019 01:37

This question is directed primarily at Vidur, although if anyone else can answer, please do.

Has the MOD/GoI ever done a study to calculate the difference in real cost to the national exchequer between an indigenous product and a corresponding imported product?

What I mean is, say there are two competing products A & B, offered at around the same price.
A is indigenous, meaning it's a product of local R&D, the product is integrated locally, though it may utilize some imported components.
B is completely imported.

For B, we know that all the money paid for the product will immediately go out of the country.
For A, the value corresponding to imported content goes out of the country.
However, the rest is recycled back into the economy and a large part of that comes back directly and indirectly in the form of tax revenues and other receipts.

So what is the real cost to the country (and not to the yearly budget) of product A?

Apart from purely financial aspect, product A helps in building the R&D and Military-Industrial Complex of the country, and provides employment to our citizens.
Do we have an objective algorithm to quantify these factors and include them in the calculations of total cost?

I could see many advantages of publishing the results of these studies, making the criteria and calculations public, and thus making a concerted and systematic push for 'Make in India' that offers a long term benefit to the country.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2019 01:59

Not Vidur but can answer no.
The indigenous product will have multiplier effect on the Indian economy and that is ignored.

And in previous govts the product B had a kickback factor that helped political parties in elections.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Avtar Singh » 30 Oct 2019 03:24

==========ADA==========

so I have been racking my old brain and going through old diaries, to no avail..
brain is now more useless than my diaries, but even they produced no result.

I remember attending a BR meet where a young engineer who worked for airbus in germany was attending..

I remember him saying that the german engineers were very complimentary on the ADA product?/software?
they were using and something along the lines that he must be very proud!!!

well whilst going through some shelves only 2 weekends ago, I found paper copies of some emails….

So this was BR london meet #4 17 may 2003
the aviation bookshop and chor bizarre
I have full list of attendees, anyone here remember this meet?

My main point is that this was in the distant days (16+ years) when LCA was still a bit of time away…..

This all demonstrates, to me anyway, that a jet engine should be a piece of cake for India
and really is a case of getting on with it and not looking to others.

No matter how much is spent, it will not be wasted.
As always with India it is never due to any lack of ability.

Kaveri up to this point is also is a great achievement, give the environment of the last 70 years,
it turns and burns!

Hopefully India will move out of the lackadaisical ways that have dogged the LCA and made it very painful to watch.
But it is flying and I am sure an Indian jet engine will also fly in an Indian aeroplane.. But please make it happen a little quicker


As for Sivan crying
a bit of crying might be due when the 20 landers have smashed into the moon without any success..
even then one should Carry on Regardless” it is all practise.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2019 03:29

That ADA software is Autolay for composite layers design.

Those 16 + years are lost decade plus recovery time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2019 03:31

Vidur, Thanks for answering. So the problem is really with the CDA.

Why is HAL blaming the wrong authority?
By now they should know the chain of command?
Either that or its malafide.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Oct 2019 07:16

ManuJ wrote:Has the MOD/GoI ever done a study to calculate the difference in real cost to the national exchequer between an indigenous product and a corresponding imported product?
.


ManuJ, there have been studies in this regard and Make In India policies have been started accordingly. If you look at Purchase Preference Policy, a local supplier's bid can be accepted if the bid value is 20% higher than imports. The ministry has to declare that category of items under PPP. Also, as per local content policy, if a global tender of certain items has been floated which can be made in india, if the L1 is a foreign supplier, only 50% of the order will be given to the him and an opportunity shall be given to local supplier to match the price of imports. Only if none of the local supplier can match the price, the foreign supplier shall be given 100% of the order. The respective ministry also issues calculations on what quantifies a local content.

MoD has been lazy in implementation of MII policies. If used properly these policies can "break the system".

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Oct 2019 10:21

By our Atri jee,


https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/ligh ... t-on-india

|Article 04:44 AM, Oct 31, 2019 Kaal Chiron|

The LCA Tejas story has been a journey of learning, perseverance and grit. Qualities that to my mind defines my contemporary Bharatiya Citizenry. A Citizenry, which is not convent educated and which is not deracinated. A Citizenry which is humble yet ambitious. A Citizenry which dreams beyond its means and works to make such dreams possible.

But before we delve into why LCA Tejas is humble yet ambitious like the rest of us let us ponder over this clueless article. I feel no urge to dispel the stuff that Mr. Abhijit Iyer Mitra has produced but I feel that despite all these years, we Bharatiyas have not got down to appreciating what the Tejas has done to Indian defense sector in the true sense or its entirety.

A plane called LCA Tejas

A historical perspective may help here. At the time of Indian Independence, Bharat had a fairly well-developed MIC (Military Industrial Complex) which had come up to support the Allied WW2 efforts. It was certainly the best in Asia and probably second only to the actual Allied powers of WW2 (Including the Soviets/Russia). The Japanese had been crushed. We should have taken off from there but instead we focused elsewhere, and MIC was left to rot and die. Over the years capabilities were lost while the capabilities of adversaries’ world over and especially those of China continued to develop.

From a vibrant private sector in defense manufacturing, the domain became an exclusive preserve of DPSUs. The OFBs, HALS, etc. became the only place where India made her own systems for self-defense. Given that the end customer was Armed Forces (GOI), the producers were DPSUs (GOI) and the financer were the Tax Payers (through GOI), the competitive environment was lost. The need to stay ahead and serve the customer was lost and what remained was a stagnant, decaying body of organizations which had so much conflict of interest that it was a miracle that we produced anything. A bigger miracle, also a tribute to the Bhartiya perseverance, was that despite this atmosphere, there existed centers of excellence within this cold desert of assured Government contracts with foreign Governments for weapons / systems of convenience (not necessarily choice) and Technology Transfers (ToT) which were paraded as some sort of achievement though mostly they resulted in very little spins offs.

One such center of excellence was the team that went onto design, develop and produce to a limited extent the HF 24 Marut. The Marut is both a success story and a tragic story. It could have done to Indian MIC what the LCA Tejas is doing now but perhaps it was before its time. Maybe “necessity Is the mother of invention”. Our failure to continue with Marut program and develop spin offs was probably because there was a lack of urgency in the need for an indigenous fighter given that we had easy access to the Soviet MIC of that time.

In fact, in the early stages of the LCA program we can clearly see very constrained funding, lack of continuity between different dispensations of the GOI and also a lack of urgency from the both the users and developers. It is only a few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the lack of easy access to the Soviet MIC which itself was crumbling that we see a concerted effort to develop Indian weapons. Our military planners did use this situation to our advantage in one stupendous Su 30 MKI deal, which to my mind remains one of the few occasions we have been truly smart to a Geopolitical opportunity.

With the access to the Soviet MIC now gone and Russia, while a friend, was no more a willing benefactor but at best a transactional erstwhile benefactor keener to help Raj Kapoor than Akshay Kumar, the need and urgency to be self-reliant was no more a tag line. The Designers and Developers of LCA now had a more cooperative military with them. India was also becoming self-reliant in other domains like the “A-Bomb” with its own unique consequences. While we did become a Nuclear power, the cost was crushing sanctions and also seizing of laptops and data worth years of hard work by our scientists working on LCA Control Laws, who were just then in the US.

Despite, these setbacks and initial lack of support, poor funding, through the early 2000’s the LCA program achieved major milestones. First flight and production of more prototypes were just a few. A more excited IAF now saw possibilities and added new QRs while the IN pitched in with requirement of LCA Navy which would be a more powerful bird. The IAF jumped at this too and its equivalent of the LCA Navy would be the LCA MK II.

The LCA Tejas program has since started seeing major spin offs, maybe not always directly – the setting up of CEMILAC – Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification gave India a unique capability and institutionalized aircraft development capabilities. NFTC (National Flight Test Center) under ADA is a similar long serving development. DRDO labs which started breathing new life trying to develop newer systems and technologies and subsequent transfer of technology to private sector for production of LRUs or sub systems were indeed major benefits which will far eclipse the LCA program and serve India for a long time after the LCA Tejas production has come to an end. A capability lost post-independence is being recreated with small but definite steps.

Today, the LCA Tejas program has multiple components – The LCA Mk 1, LCA Mk1A, LCA MK II or the MWF and the LCA Navy. Clearly the LCA is both scalable and can diversify into newer domains. It is also cost effective. Its Intellectual Property belongs to Bhartiyas. The Control Laws developed for LCA Tejas are probably the finest tale of Indian ingenuity and genius. The aircraft features some of the most advanced 4+ gen aircraft capabilities, all in a real estate which would make the old warrior Mig 21 go green with envy. Its performance, for its class, is at once unmatched and breath taking. It’s current load out and future integration leaves me with no doubt that the aircraft will hold its own in any contested airspace. Tejas is already an adversary you don’t want to mess with. The LCA Mk1A will be the definitive light multirole 4th Gen fighter anywhere in the world – Beautiful, unmatched, easily upgradable, maintenance friendly and at a cost where Western Fighters will never be able to compete. Have no doubts that though India has heavily favored the Russian fighters, Tejas is inspired with the design philosophies of the Western Fighters. It owes its form to the IAFs loved Mirage 2000 and in its next version, the MWF, it will be a more competent fighter in all respects than its inspiration.

To list a few stunning features either already part of LCA Tejas or will shortly be a part of the aircraft:

Low visual and radar visibility in air defense roleWith AESA radar (in pipeline) range >100km good Beyond Visual Range (BVR) reachNetwork centric LPI radio link makes it make do for lower range radarDelta wing bomb truck with precision dumb bomb deliveryHigh endurance & range with mid-air refueling & On-Board Oxygen Generator (OBOG)Carefree handling allows pilot fight instead of monitor & control airplaneVery high instantaneous turn rate to launch missile at favorable angle & scootSpoof proof software (indigenous)Full source code for all current & future weaponsAll weather day/night missionTremendous Room to grow:Engine thrust & Thrust Specific Fuel consumption (SFC),internal fuel capacity,Self-Protection Jammer(SPJ),Artificial Intelligence (AI)/Machine learningIIRST / hyperspectral identification,Conformal Fuel Tank (CFT)Control lawsAffordability, economies of scale (>250 units)Reliable & safe (no crash to date)Automatic stall recoveryUpgradable man machine interface, Glass Cockpit and HUDSimpler to maintainHot refuelingCold Start

But much more than the above list is the creation of generation of admirers and defense aware young Indians that have grown living and following the Tejas story along with the confidence and belief it has instilled in us. The pride that we who have watched the Tejas come to fruition since we had first heard of it as young boys. The Tejas has created a new breed of Indians who believe our MIC can deliver us the best. ACM Bhaduria’s recent statement of IAF’s support to the Tejas speaks volumes about its confidence in the machine and the men who are behind the machine.  The IAF plans to acquire 123 LCA Mk 1 variants and probably 200 + LCA Mk II aircraft as mentioned here https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/iaf-strongly-pitches-for-desi-fighters-from-tejas-to-5-generation-jets/articleshow/71445334.cms

 The development of the Tejas has helped in

Developing institutions which will help in all future aircraft developmentDeveloping Labs and testing facilities which will expedite future development\Initial steps in development of a private sector MICA model for future partnership with the private sector in defense manufacturingMany systems and LRUs which will be used as certified in future fighter programs thus cutting down development timelines.Creating a talent pool which is already seeing spin offs in the development of HTT 40 and hopefully many other successful programs

The Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft will not be an import. The sooner those unlicensed pens of the Iyer Mitras understand this the better it is for them. The foreign dallals are facing the grit and determination of the humble yet ambitious Bhartiya. The AMCA is India’s Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft. Period. Not taking the Tejas forward to the AMCA will be committing the same mistake as we committed with the Marut. Institutional Learning will have failed if we were to import an uber expensive deluxe FGFA from US or Russia to fill the pockets of “dallals” and deny the growth of Indian MIC. I for one will take a 5th Gen minus in 2040 rather than an imported F22 (for export only model) with its frills and fancies and costs and debilitating limitations on use cases which the seller will force on us.

The development cycle of the AMCA will be shorter, again thanks to the Tejas with most of the subsystems (eg Landing Gears) and LRUs already being developed for the Tejas. The Tejas program has taught us so many new solutions to complex problems and has helped us develop capabilities that it would be a crime, in fact, traitorous to let them whither.

The AMCA therefore must succeed the LCA and it must keep the Aspidistra Flying.

Praise for those who deserve

The Tejas development program has overcome financial, institutional, governmental, international non-cooperation, denial, lethargy and unwillingness through the perseverance and grit of a few select individuals across organizations to have survived and then come to a successful induction into the IAF. There are still challenges and the foremost among them will be the mighty pens of publishing houses and writers who would try to kill the program and defame it. The attacks from usual suspects against all things “desi” is to be expected. To the people who have overcome all the above challenges and continue to fight new ones along with the old, my heartfelt Salute! Please continue to touch the sky with glory.

“उत्तिष्ठत जाग्रत प्राप्य वरान्निबोधत,

क्षुरासन्न धारा निशिता दुरत्यद्दुर्गम पथ: तत् कवयो वदन्ति |”

Acknowledgements – several passionate members at https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com

Header Image courtesy - Indian Air Force twitter account

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby VickyAvinash » 31 Oct 2019 12:29

Manish_Sharma wrote:By our Atri jee,


https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/ligh ... t-on-india

|Article 04:44 AM, Oct 31, 2019 Kaal Chiron|


क्षुरासन्न धारा निशिता दुरत्यद्दुर्गम पथ: तत् कवयो वदन्ति |”

Acknowledgements – several passionate members at https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com

Header Image courtesy - Indian Air Force twitter account


Thanks for sharing the article and thanks to writers for making effort.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 31 Oct 2019 13:08

Excellent article. Compliments to the writers. Most of the points are discussed here already, but let me point of two parts which stand apart for me.

At least I have not seen anyone (or I might have seen but do not remember now) pointing out this very important point.
It is only a few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the lack of easy access to the Soviet MIC which itself was crumbling that we see a concerted effort to develop Indian weapons.


And this one is something that many BRFites would easily connect by heart:

But much more than the above list is the creation of generation of admirers and defense aware young Indians that have grown living and following the Tejas story along with the confidence and belief it has instilled in us. The pride that we who have watched the Tejas come to fruition since we had first heard of it as young boys. The Tejas has created a new breed of Indians who believe our MIC can deliver us the best.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 31 Oct 2019 14:47

I was watching the first flight of LCA, which happened in Jan 2001.

Suddenly I realized, the flight control team was thrown out of LM, in May/June 1998, with all their hard work confiscated.

So in 2.5 year, we were able to get the flight control working and a first flight!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 31 Oct 2019 15:47

Not just did they re-write entire FCS from scratch, they implemented many changes taking that opportunity, making it even better.

That's only one part of trouble. They had not enough actuators. They were rotating them in the iron bird and the TD at times.

GE left suddenly leaving engine related work pending. LCA team managed to complete the integration and maintenance on their own without any further help from GE.

There was an interview by Tarmak I think, where there is a mention how ADA scientist worked 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week during those 2-3 yrs. That sanction basically galvanized ADA beyond their own expectations.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arshyam » 31 Oct 2019 16:42

This saga needs to be made into a movie.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 31 Oct 2019 16:52

Looking at the Mangalyaan movie recently, I'd rather prefer a book.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 31 Oct 2019 23:17

An image I found somewhere on FB recently. It appears that the outsourcing of the LCA front fuselage, rear fuselage, wings etc. is on in full swing.

Image
Last edited by Kartik on 31 Oct 2019 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 31 Oct 2019 23:20

JayS wrote:Looking at the Mangalyaan movie recently, I'd rather prefer a book.


Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar's book is a must read. I wish someone came out with an authoritative account like that of the period post the first TD's flight.

Amazon link

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 31 Oct 2019 23:50

Kartik wrote:
JayS wrote:Looking at the Mangalyaan movie recently, I'd rather prefer a book.


Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar's book is a must read. I wish someone came out with an authoritative account like that of the period post the first TD's flight.

Amazon link

I have the book. But it throws minimal light on the happenings in 1980s. I would really like Kota sir writing a book, or some one writing the book with information collected from him. No one could write more authoritative book on it than the Father of LCA himself.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2019 06:17

A must watch video on a regular overhaul of a fighter jet. This video is about the Gripen C, similar in performance to the Tejas Mk1. Some major components aboard both aircraft - Tejas and Gripen C - are similar. For example....both aircraft operate with a GE F404 engine and both aircraft use a Martin Baker ejection seat. And both components are overhauled or replaced in great detail in this video.

Something I never knew and perhaps is unique to the Gripen C, that the F404 engine is attached to the Gripen's engine bay at just three points using a bolt! That was surprising - to yours truly (a mango abdul) - for an aircraft that pushes 9G!

So sit back, turn up your volume, expand video size to full screen and enjoy :)


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Nov 2019 12:56

Going through the HAl website https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=20

I noticed 2 bits of data 1) Payload- 5.3 tonnes and 2) Radius of action -300Km. The payload generally accepted here was 3.5 tonnes and 300km radius of action has been discussed, but considering the data on HAL official Website. This 300KM radius of Combat action is with 5.3 tonne payload?? Max take of weight is given as 13.5 Tonne, so payload is 5.3 tonne, Fuel 2.4 Tonne, Pilot, oxygen bottles and Lubricants + Empty weight = 5.8 Tonnes?

I am pleasantly surprised by the 5.3 Tonne payload number, now the MWF numbers also make much better sense.

The maximum Dry thrust for the GE 404F2/J-IN20 is also mentioned as 5618 kgF or 55Kn, the wet thrust as GperE being 19000 pounds or 84.5 Kn.

So assuming that the DRY thrust/Wet thrust is in the same ratio for GE F414IN6 we get about 64KN as the dry thrust.

Another interesting info from GE aviation website : https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F414-Family.pdf

F404 IN20- Inlet Dia -71 CM, Max dia -89 Cm , Length - 391 Cm

F414 IN6 - Inlet Dia -79 CM, Max dia -89 cm , Length -391 Cm.

This cunning Indians may one day pull off an engine upgrade as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 02 Nov 2019 14:11

^^^ You do not need to be a cunning Indian. The F414 is derived from the F404 and GE has intended it to be a viable upgrade option :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Nov 2019 14:53

If you read BRF discussions in the past that the F414 dimensions were much bigger than F404, but in actual fact it does not seem to be much bigger, the inlet fan is however 8cm bigger.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 02 Nov 2019 15:13

^^^ Max diameter and length are exactly the same, I don't know how much a 8cm difference in the inlet would mean for the upgrade. But since GE kept the overall dimensions nearly identical they clearly intended the F414 to be an upgrade option.

Following chini mil, I see that the WS-10 (RE'ed from amreki civilian CFM56) has far more diverse dimensions from the AL-31 than the F414 is from the F404. Obviously, since those engines come from different countries not just companies. But we see J-10s, J-11s and J-20s re-engined with either. We should be able to upgrade the original Tejas but I don't know if we would.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby RKumar » 02 Nov 2019 19:57

Any chaiwala or paanwala news, when Tejas FOC (SP-21-36) are gonna fly. It's already Nov :((

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 02 Nov 2019 20:55

1. Max payload is 3.9 tonnes with full internal fuel.
2. Ferry range is over 2200 kms.
3. I dont think you guys understand what it means to fit a new engine. Engines and inlets are tied to each other. HAL wanted to fit 414 into the current airframe with modified inlets. It is not that easy. It is not easy enough to do on internal funding of HAL. So they have dropped the plan for Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Nov 2019 21:00

I agree I don't understand the complexities hence my mention of the word" may one day". The other point is 3.9 tonne vs HAL official website 5.3 Tonne payload, is the official website wrong?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 02 Nov 2019 21:42

chola wrote:^^^ Max diameter and length are exactly the same, I don't know how much a 8cm difference in the inlet would mean for the upgrade. But since GE kept the overall dimensions nearly identical they clearly intended the F414 to be an upgrade option.

Following chini mil, I see that the WS-10 (RE'ed from amreki civilian CFM56) has far more diverse dimensions from the AL-31 than the F414 is from the F404. Obviously, since those engines come from different countries not just companies. But we see J-10s, J-11s and J-20s re-engined with either. We should be able to upgrade the original Tejas but I don't know if we would.


Higher thrust, means higher airflow requirement. A re-designed inlet, which might effect the areo dynamics and CoG.

More thrust, means more fuel consumption, reducing the RoA even further. We would then need to increase the fuel capacity.

Add to this, you don't want to waste all the extra thrust on SE fighter. If LCA is restricted to carry 4 tonne payload, what is the point of those extra thrust? You would ideally want to increase the load capacity.

All in all.. MWF. Unfortunately LCA being small & compact is becoming it's Achilles's heel.

Having said that, I do have wonder about USN plan to induct F414 EPE. May F18 being a large jet, is already designed for higher airflow and higher loadout.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 03 Nov 2019 00:23

Aditya_V wrote:I agree I don't understand the complexities hence my mention of the word" may one day". The other point is 3.9 tonne vs HAL official website 5.3 Tonne payload, is the official website wrong?

It would seem HAL has included internal fuel plus external payload in its 5.3t figure.

Also, that 300km combat radius of action would be on internal fuel with max external payload (but no EFT). Worst possible specs being mentioned.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby John » 03 Nov 2019 02:24

Aditya_V wrote:I agree I don't understand the complexities hence my mention of the word" may one day". The other point is 3.9 tonne vs HAL official website 5.3 Tonne payload, is the official website wrong?

5.3 tonne payload is without full internal fuel due to its mtow of 13 tons that configuration will greatly limit its fuel.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 03 Nov 2019 06:22

Aditya_V wrote:I agree I don't understand the complexities hence my mention of the word" may one day". The other point is 3.9 tonne vs HAL official website 5.3 Tonne payload, is the official website wrong?

Yes it’s wrong on the website. Typo that no one has ever bothered to correct.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 04 Nov 2019 23:43

Full FOC configuration Tejas (SP21) to fly by end of this month. HAL starts assembly work on SP33 and SP34. (This news is per a Defence AV on Youtube)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Nov 2019 16:28

Frustrating waiting to see contracts for additinal Tejas.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 06 Nov 2019 02:13

All in good time.
A few things need to be lined up at HAL.
Eventually jingos will be khush.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Nov 2019 18:48

IDRW reporting OBOGs clears lab trials, installation on Rambha and Tejas soon. ..toiling ants have done something we can be proud..
would Tejas have ceiling/endurance limit without OBOGs? I can understand about Rambha or rather bheem

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Nov 2019 00:38

ArjunPandit wrote:IDRW reporting OBOGs clears lab trials, installation on Rambha and Tejas soon. ..toiling ants have done something we can be proud..
would Tejas have ceiling/endurance limit without OBOGs? I can understand about Rambha or rather bheem


Theoretically should enable 3-4 hours of flight endurance at least, with aerial refueling. We don't know what this particular OBOGS system limitations are, but typically it takes away the dependence on LOX and hence as long as the pilot can fly and there are tankers available, the Tejas can remain airborne.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2019 05:19

^^^ The info comes from DRDO Nov'19 newsletter.

Pilot-in-Loop Testing of On-Board Oxygen Generating System centric Integrated Life Support System

Defence Bio-Engineering and Electro Medical Laboratory (DEBEL), Bengaluru has developed On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) centric
Integrated Life Support System to provide enhanced physiology protection to aircrew of fighter aircraft flying at high altitude. OBOGS replaces liquid oxygen system by utilizing bleed air from the aircraft engine and separating its components using molecular sieve (Zeolite) Pressure Swing adsorption (PSA) technology. The system consists of two molecular sieve beds with oxygen plenum to continuously provide breathing gas to aircrew. Use of OBOGS technology eliminates the logistic tail associated with liquid oxygen system, improves safety, reduces aircraft turnaround time, extends mission duration and significantly lowers operational cost.

DEBEL carried out the Pilotin-Loop testing of ILSS in High Altitude Decompression Chamber under simulated altitudes with test pilot of Tejas as the subject from 15 August 2019 to 6 September 2019. Performance of the system has been found at par with conventional oxygen system in use. The Pilot-in-Loop test has been demonstrated to Programme Director (CA) & Director, ADA in the presence of CE (A), CEMILAC, and representatives of RCMA(A/C), ARDCHAL, DGAQA and ADA. The flight trials of the system will be carried out on Tejas PV-3 aircraft by the middle of next year.


Frankly, the pace of this technology's development is quite slow. One of my friends was working on this in 2010. It was "handed over" a few years back. Apparently, it is still in testing and only enter flight testing next year. Hopefully, it has picked up speed now and Mk1As will come with this as standard.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 07 Nov 2019 14:54

ramana wrote:All in good time.
A few things need to be lined up at HAL.
Eventually jingos will be khush.


Is your post in regards to the
FOC Aircraft build
or the 83 Mk1A
?

I am perhaps a bit more curious about the release schedule of the FOC a/c.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 07 Nov 2019 18:19

Image
Image

Image
Image


https://www.drdo.gov.in/board-oxygen-ge ... stem-obogs

On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS)

Technology Cluster

Aeronautical Systems (Aero)
Life Sciences (LS)
On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) centric Life Support System to provide enhanced physiology protection to aircrew of high altitude and high speed fighter aircrafts. OBOGS replaces Liquid Oxygen System (LOX) by utilizing bleed air from the aircraft engine and separating its components using molecular sieve (Zeolite) Pressure Swing Adsorption (PSA) technology. The system consists of two molecular sieve beds with oxygen plenum to provide breathing gas to aircrew continuously.

Salient Features

LoadTwo bed OBOGS to meet breathing requirements of single and twin crew aircrafts
Backup Oxygen System (BOS) to provide 40 minutes of breathing oxygen
Emergency Oxygen System (EOS) to provide 7 minutes of breathing oxygen
Automatic backup and emergency oxygen selection

Current status of Development/Production

Already developed

Production agency involved for the system/product identified

L&T, Surya Aerotech, Vijay Sabre, United Rubber Industries, Tan Enterprises


Ability of the production agencies to meet the requirement of Indian Armed Forces/ Security Agencies as well as of export

Yes


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