Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Dileep
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 21 Jan 2020 13:41

As per my understanding, the production goes as follows:

1. The front, mid and rear jigs are used to create the three major subassemblies. There are six sets of such jigs.
2. They are joined together with the wings and landing gear on the designated bay on the hangar floor. There is no jig for that. I am not sure how many such bays are there in the hangar. But that is not a problem I think.
3. 'Equipping' happens then. People go into the structure and assemble the LRUs, cables, pipes, actuators etc. There are a set of raised platforms to give access to the entire aircraft.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 21 Jan 2020 13:48

Dileep wrote:It was a "Supply Chain Conference" so, no juicy technical info was presented like radar EW etc.

The math doesn't add up clearly for 16 aircraft. We know that there are 6 jigs. So,theoretically if they can reduce the 6 months to 4.5 months, you can reach 16. But IMHO that is a tall order. Building more jigs is out of question, given the major capex involved.

So, realistically, we can expect 12 to 14 aircraft coming out in next FY.

Squadrons impression? Imagine you had been driving a battered Premier Padmini, and you are given a Tata Tigor Automatic. Would you be happy or not? Of course they are!! Like a kid who got a brand new bike for diwali!!


:D

Thanks Dileep. much appreciated!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 21 Jan 2020 14:38

Dileep wrote:As per my understanding, the production goes as follows:

1. The front, mid and rear jigs are used to create the three major subassemblies. There are six sets of such jigs.
2. They are joined together with the wings and landing gear on the designated bay on the hangar floor. There is no jig for that. I am not sure how many such bays are there in the hangar. But that is not a problem I think.
3. 'Equipping' happens then. People go into the structure and assemble the LRUs, cables, pipes, actuators etc. There are a set of raised platforms to give access to the entire aircraft.


Thats my understanding too. For fuselage assembly they must have some basic jig to hold the the sub assy in correct position while its riveted together. Wings typically dont need jigs for attachement with fuselage. We do not have rolling line where each station has fixed work package.

The next step is where the equipping happens at the sub-assy level at the supplier location itself. So the finaly equipping step time reduces drastically. It also makes the MRO neater as one could simply replace entire module to reduce downtime for operational jets. I think this is already under consideration for MWF. When we are there we would have caught up with the current global practice more or less. I am very sanguine about the MWF from the production technology perspective. Its a very much needed step before moving to AMCA which is going to need further enhanced accuracy in manufacturing processes and tolerances to maintain its stealth.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 21 Jan 2020 16:39

Thakur_B wrote:Euro fighter documentary I saw a while back stated 60 microns for panels. In one of the factories built on a bog, lunar cycles would move the ground by millimeters, so the jigs they were using were hovercraft style floating on a layer of air.


while on the subject of tolerances.,

Building the F-22
https://www.flightglobal.com/building-the-f-22/11042.article?adredir=1

Simpson says that a good weld requires "very exacting machining tolerances at the joints." The thickness of the structure, which must carry the engine, as well as tail, loads, adds to the difficulty of the task. Results so far have been excellent, he says, with the welding process proving to be "very repeatable". In production F-22s, the complete booms will be welded, eliminating the present mechanical joints.

Dimensional control is critical on the F-22 - and not just to maintain tight tolerances on the external lines to minimise radar cross-section. "We have cut the margin for fit-up to the lowest possible level. We cannot afford any slop in the joints, as this affects fatigue life," Simpson says. "We are looking for a perfect fit, with minimum shimming. A better fit means less stress, less wear and tear, for a higher fatigue life and lower weight," he adds.

Traditional fabricated-aluminum bulkheads, frames and racks have been eliminated and replaced by single-piece machined components. Five-axis machining of bulkheads results in major weight savings in the mid- and forward fuselage, while holding tolerances three times tighter than those achieved in the Lockheed Martin F-16.
Last edited by Rakesh on 21 Jan 2020 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do not post entire articles due to copyright laws

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SidSoma » 21 Jan 2020 20:21

Traditional fabricated-aluminum bulkheads, frames and racks have been eliminated and replaced by single-piece machined components. Five-axis machining of bulkheads results in major weight savings in the mid- and forward fuselage, while holding tolerances three times tighter than those achieved in the Lockheed Martin F-16.


Well absolute tolerance levels are muddling. Flatness tolerances of 0.025mm for aluminium/steel plates are achievable even with a modest grinding machine for lengths upto one meter by one meter (Personally have seen something like this) So I am not sure why single piece machining is highlighted for these tolerances, may be because of the larger lengths. Almost Any thing that can be done quickly in 5 axis machine can be done slowly in a 3 axis one with the same kind of tolerances. I have seen aero engine parts with much tighter tolerances (<0.010mm) these are regularly made in India for various orgs

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 21 Jan 2020 20:37

SidSoma wrote:
Traditional fabricated-aluminum bulkheads, frames and racks have been eliminated and replaced by single-piece machined components. Five-axis machining of bulkheads results in major weight savings in the mid- and forward fuselage, while holding tolerances three times tighter than those achieved in the Lockheed Martin F-16.


Well absolute tolerance levels are muddling. Flatness tolerances of 0.025mm for aluminium/steel plates are achievable even with a modest grinding machine for lengths upto one meter by one meter (Personally have seen something like this) So I am not sure why single piece machining is highlighted for these tolerances, may be because of the larger lengths. Almost Any thing that can be done quickly in 5 axis machine can be done slowly in a 3 axis one with the same kind of tolerances. I have seen aero engine parts with much tighter tolerances (<0.010mm) these are regularly made in India for various orgs

Its just the tendency to show-off by cherry picking numbers. :D As I said previously there are perhaps millions of tolerances in an entire aircraft of dozens of types. And not everything sounds as glorious as 0.025. Would you believe if I tell you some parts in Jet engines can be approved with say 10mm of deviation from the intended shape on primary aero surface...??

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SidSoma » 21 Jan 2020 21:01

JayS wrote:Its just the tendency to show-off by cherry picking numbers. :D

Typical khan marketing :)

JayS wrote: As I said previously there are perhaps millions of tolerances in an entire aircraft of dozens of types. And not everything sounds as glorious as 0.025. Would you believe if I tell you some parts in Jet engines can be approved with say 10mm of deviation from the intended shape on primary aero surface...??

This is amazing :), would not have guesses such large numbers

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 21 Jan 2020 22:04

Dileep, Thanks for the tidbits on the Tejas mfg flow in HAL.
Will try to digest and connect the dots.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vamsee » 23 Jan 2020 05:13

If you are on twitter, please RT the below tweet :-)
============================================================
Hush Kit
@Hush_Kit
If this gets to 1000 RTs I'll release a Tejas pilot interview this week (fingers crossed the pilot gets all the answers to me this week..which is why I've set the RT figure so high!)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 23 Jan 2020 07:22

someone beat me to it. Guys do the favor!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 23 Jan 2020 20:14

HAL: LCA-Tejas Trainer Aircraft Assembly Jigs with Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) Commissioned. Inaugurated the LCA trainer jigs incorporating the advanced features of Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) as per IAF’s requirement

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 73665?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 23 Jan 2020 21:41

So HAL is all dressed up to produce Trainers. How many jigs though. We have 8 trainer from 40 LCA order and another 16 IIRC from 83, total of 24 trainers). Will these Jigs supplement the existing ones or they are on their own to produce trainer. Typically 1 jig is taking 1 year to produce 1 plane.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 24 Jan 2020 00:54

fanne wrote:So HAL is all dressed up to produce Trainers. How many jigs though. We have 8 trainer from 40 LCA order and another 16 IIRC from 83, total of 24 trainers). Will these Jigs supplement the existing ones or they are on their own to produce trainer. Typically 1 jig is taking 1 year to produce 1 plane.


8 + 10 = 18 trainers in all so far.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby rohitvats » 24 Jan 2020 02:57

Time to extend production run of Tejas Mk1 by at one more squadron. Good for IAF numbers and production.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 03:01

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 8937393153 ---> All these geniuses saying MMRCA 2.0 is justified to give opportunities to the private sector don’t have a clue! $15 billion + on a foreign plane just for some assembly contracts in India? HAL is creating entire ecosystems (with private players) already, LCA/MWF/AMCA only option for future.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 24 Jan 2020 03:07

No better stimulus to the economy than pouring in an additional 10billion(LCA-assorted) + 5billion(Arjun) + 5billion(P-75I) + 3billion(IAC - 2) = 23billion with a stipulation that local manufacturing to be increased by value to 60%(the money that should stay in India)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 24 Jan 2020 04:00

ashishvikas wrote:HAL: LCA-Tejas Trainer Aircraft Assembly Jigs with Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) Commissioned. Inaugurated the LCA trainer jigs incorporating the advanced features of Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) as per IAF’s requirement

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 73665?s=19

Nice!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 24 Jan 2020 09:14

fanne wrote:So HAL is all dressed up to produce Trainers. How many jigs though. We have 8 trainer from 40 LCA order and another 16 IIRC from 83, total of 24 trainers). Will these Jigs supplement the existing ones or they are on their own to produce trainer. Typically 1 jig is taking 1 year to produce 1 plane.


This question needs to be answered with clarity, simplicity and transparency.

No need to defend HAL or impress upon anyone.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 24 Jan 2020 09:23

Thanks....and another question - It is repeatedly alleged that LCA is still 70% by value (not parts) imported? True or false. I can count many foreign things still - engine, radar, some avionics (HMS etc), actuators (?), 0/0 ejection seat....but 70%? More like 30-40%

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 24 Jan 2020 10:02

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1218517298937393153 ---> All these geniuses saying MMRCA 2.0 is justified to give opportunities to the private sector don’t have a clue! $15 billion + on a foreign plane just for some assembly contracts in India? HAL is creating entire ecosystems (with private players) already, LCA/MWF/AMCA only option for future.


Isn't the radome from Cobham too?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Jan 2020 10:20

rohitvats wrote:Time to extend production run of Tejas Mk1 by at one more squadron. Good for IAF numbers and production.


Given that all/most MK1s will be upgraded to the MK1a standard, its a very low risk option to increase MK1 orders by a few more squadrons. Commit orders to HAL so that they can increase their production capacity, rather than worry about lines remaining idle.

For this to happen, the 110 MMRCA contract must be swiftly & publicly killed. Force the issue. Either order more Tejas or make do with 6 less squadrons.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Jan 2020 10:38

How long a time period are we looking at operationalising new equipment on Mk1A, aesa radar and ew systems mostly?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 24 Jan 2020 11:24

Why would signing off process for another squadron of Mk1FOC be so easier as compared to signing off process for MK1a

We are just kicking the can down the road.
Bite the bullet and fix procurement related issues standing behind Mk1a.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 24 Jan 2020 18:42

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1218517298937393153 ---> All these geniuses saying MMRCA 2.0 is justified to give opportunities to the private sector don’t have a clue! $15 billion + on a foreign plane just for some assembly contracts in India? HAL is creating entire ecosystems (with private players) already, LCA/MWF/AMCA only option for future.


Isn't the radome from Cobham too?

Unfortunately.. No. Cobham Radome is applicable only for the 2032 based MMR. The AESA Radar will not have Cobham radome. What I heard is that Elta refused to work with Cobham radome. The radome will be Elta design, 'indigenously made' by HAL.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 18:56

Amen. Excellent news Dileep.

From the diagram in the tweet, the key phoren technologies on Tejas are;

1) Radar - Israel
2) Engine - US
3) Seat - UK

The second point is the greatest worry.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 24 Jan 2020 20:33

Radar - We will soon have Uttam
Engine- Work in progress.
Seat- What is stopping us from working on this low hanging fruit?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 20:35

Martin Baker and Zvezda are the two manufacturers that I know of, that make ejection seats. Gurus will know of others. Points 1 and 3 are not worrisome, as Point 2 is.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 24 Jan 2020 20:36

Vips wrote:Radar - We will soon have Uttam
Engine- Work in progress.
Seat- What is stopping us from working on this low hanging fruit?


probably the martin baker zero zero ejection seat ?, i thought russians had the best ones ?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 24 Jan 2020 20:43

kit wrote:
Vips wrote:Radar - We will soon have Uttam
Engine- Work in progress.
Seat- What is stopping us from working on this low hanging fruit?


probably the martin baker zero zero ejection seat ?, i thought russians had the best ones ?


I thought Martin Baker seats were chosen for Su-30MKI.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 24 Jan 2020 20:49

Dileep wrote:
JTull wrote:
Isn't the radome from Cobham too?

Unfortunately.. No. Cobham Radome is applicable only for the 2032 based MMR. The AESA Radar will not have Cobham radome. What I heard is that Elta refused to work with Cobham radome. The radome will be Elta design, 'indigenously made' by HAL.



There were reports of an indigenous "stealth" radome that facilitates certain frequencies that can be modified to suit any radar , by an IIT , wonder what happened to that !

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Jan 2020 20:56

kit wrote:
Dileep wrote:Unfortunately.. No. Cobham Radome is applicable only for the 2032 based MMR. The AESA Radar will not have Cobham radome. What I heard is that Elta refused to work with Cobham radome. The radome will be Elta design, 'indigenously made' by HAL.



There were reports of an indigenous "stealth" radome that facilitates certain frequencies that can be modified to suit any radar , by an IIT , wonder what happened to that !


The FSS radome was in works for AMCA iirc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2020 00:11

Seats are probably a low value item, I think the value derived from trying to do it ourselves is very low.

Engine on the other hand, should be our top priority...
Radar is on the way...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Jan 2020 00:20

Dileep sir, I will ask the question here and you can reply in the military aviation thread.

Any updates on the developments on the IJT? That program worries and excited me.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jan 2020 00:59

rohitvats wrote:Time to extend production run of Tejas Mk1 by at one more squadron. Good for IAF numbers and production.

I'm hugely disappointed that this did not happen at foc itself. Wtf are they playing at?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 25 Jan 2020 04:43

There is no real need for another Mk1 squadron. Sadly, the way HAL is set up to deliver the ordered numbers, even if an additional squadron is ordered now, it won't be delivered before 2023.

Here is how the delivery numbers will look like if numbers don't go beyond 16 per year :

March 2018-March 2019 - 8 Tejas Mk1 IOC single seat fighters delivered to the IAF (DONE)

March 2019-March 2020 - 4 Tejas Mk1 FOC single seat fighters to be delivered since FOC was granted only in February 2019 (ON-TRACK)
March 2020-March 2021 - 12 Tejas Mk1 FOC single seat fighters to be delivered so the second squadron is equipped
March 2021-March 2022 - 8 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers from the first 40 batch and 8 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers from the 83 Mk1A batch to be delivered. Total 16 trainers
March 2022-March 2023 - 2 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers and 14 Tejas Mk1A single seat fighters
March 2023-March 2024 - 16 Tejas Mk1A single seat fighters
March 2025-March 2026 - 16 Tejas Mk1A single seat fighters
March 2026-March 2027 - 16 Tejas Mk1A single seat fighters
March 2027-March 2028 - 11 Tejas Mk1A single seat fighters and 5 Tejas Mk2 MWF single seat fighters


HAL will be delivering Tejas Mk1A fighters in the period March 2022- March 2023, after the last 2 Tejas Mk1 FOC trainers are delivered. If you order another squadron of Mk1 fighters, all that'll happen is that it'll slide the Mk1A deliveries to the right and 14 Mk1 single seaters will be delivered.

And the way to go is to push full steam ahead to get the Mk1A done and delivered. It is superior to the Mk1 and adding a few Mk1 airframes that will again need to be upgraded at a later date to Mk1A standard doesn't really make sense unless they can deliver them in parallel to the current schedule.

If at all, perhaps ordering 1 more squadron of the Mk1A as a hedge against Tejas Mk2 MWF delays would make sense. So a total of 73 single seat + 16 more single seat Tejas Mk1A fighters, for a total of 5 squadrons of Mk1A and 2 squadrons of Mk1s to be upgraded to Mk1A standard. Total 7 squadrons of Mk1A at the end of it.

If GoI, MoD and IAF push for it, and pay for the additional infrastructure at the private sector companies (jigs, tooling, hangar space, etc.) the number of Tejas fighters assembled per year could be pushed up to 20 or even 24. HAL guys have said that is possible to do, but they cannot push it unless the customer wants it done. If that happens, the timelines could be compressed further and the IAF can really bulk up fast- almost 1.5 Tejas Mk1A squadrons per year and then moving on to Mk2 MWF.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 25 Jan 2020 07:47

Kartik you have mised out on FY 2024-25. Your order will be over by 2027. 201 MWF and even if 250 AMCA are orderred around 50 SPORTS trainer wil be required in 2024 -28 timeperiod and Tejas production can be pushed upto 24/year in the said timeperiod and 8 year production of MWF @24/year upto 2036 can be ensured.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 25 Jan 2020 09:40

Indranil wrote:Dileep sir, I will ask the question here and you can reply in the military aviation thread.

Any updates on the developments on the IJT? That program worries and excited me.


Answered there. Nothing known as of now.

There is one major problem with information sharing. What being discussed in meetings, and even casual talk within the secure perimeter of buildings are covered by non-disclosure norms. What disclosed in personal chat need to be filtered based on intent. One should not get others (and oneself) into trouble you see.

What being presented in open sessions (where you participate without agreeing to confidentiality) can be openly shared. So, my post on SIATI conference was pretty detailed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 25 Jan 2020 09:46

Good judgement there!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 25 Jan 2020 09:47

Radome design is 'black art'. We had done some work on one for a satcom terminal, which did not have beam direction criticality, and that itself was terrible. We are currently proposing one for an airborne weather radar, which is orders of magnitude tougher.

It spins my head thinking about the needs of the fighter radar. You need to give it to the Cobham guys. The performance they gave for the Mk1 was phenomenal. Till RBE2 shows up, the Mk1 radar is the best we have. Bars may have the range, but Mk1 have the clarity. To give a simile, Bars will be like a 20X digital zoom, while Mk1 will be like 10X optical zoom.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 25 Jan 2020 15:13

sankum wrote:Kartik you have mised out on FY 2024-25. Your order will be over by 2027. 201 MWF and even if 250 AMCA are orderred around 50 SPORTS trainer wil be required in 2024 -28 timeperiod and Tejas production can be pushed upto 24/year in the said timeperiod and 8 year production of MWF @24/year upto 2036 can be ensured.


Sorry my bad- that means that more Tejas Mk1A fighters need to be ordered, to be built in the period between March 2027-March 2028. It in fact makes it clear that either the MWF needs to enter production earlier (assembly by March 2027 which means long lead items need to be manufactured even earlier, by 2024) or at least 16-24 more Tejas Mk1A need to be ordered. Not Tejas Mk1 fighters since that would only push the Mk1A production further behind. I would bet on 1 more squadron of the Mk1A being ordered to fill that gap. MWF cannot be rushed into production by 1 year, certainly not by HAL.

As for the LCA SPORT, I really have my doubts about the IAF being into that concept, even with the SPORT trainer being combat capable. It'll be as expensive as Mk1A single seaters and help teach young rookies the basics of AESA radars, BVRAAMs, HMDS, etc. but all of that can also be taught in a simulator for a far more affordable price. The need is for combat capable fighters and I'd much rather have those production slots taken up to build more Mk1A or MWF fighters. And unless the rate is increased to 24 per year, I don't think we'll get anywhere near these 200+ numbers at all.


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