Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
dkhare
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 03:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 19 Mar 2020 21:33

I don't know if this was posted before but Sameer Joshi (@joe_sameer) just posted a video of the Tejas performing an inflight refueling. Pretty smooth approach to the drogue - that FCS setting for IFR doing its thing.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1240650137900175360

Commentators in the thread wonder if it's a Jaguar due to the cockpit frame / HUD. I think the retractable probe of the Jaguar looks very different. The Tejas does have a frame around its HUD.

dkhare
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 03:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dkhare » 19 Mar 2020 22:08

New pictures from HAL via Vayu Aerospace on Mk1 FOC SP-21.

You can see the HUD frame in this one:

Image

Image

naird
BRFite
Posts: 275
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 19:41

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby naird » 19 Mar 2020 22:45

Build finish looks top notch !! Loving the pics

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54175
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2020 00:01

The cynical part of me says someone wanted to front-load the Tejas order with spares and maintenance to raise the price to be higher than imports. And did achieve that. But sense prevailed via dove.

Anyway as long as this order goes through and keeps the line humming I have no qualms.

Dileep can the gap be filled with Naval LCA?
It doesn't have the pul etc. Added structure and canards with new engines.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:06


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:07

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 71557?s=20 ---> UPDATED WEAPON OPTIONS.

After integration issues with Israeli Python-5, IAF looks to equip Tejas with ASRAAM.

Image

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 00:09

There is no HP on the Mk1/Mk1A where that SPJ pod is shown.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:10

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 59168?s=20 ---> Initial testing phase has shown that Uttam AESA radar has a far better MTBF rate than Israeli Elta 2052 AESA radar.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:14

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 68480?s=20 ---> When looking at this pic, a thought struck me - IAF is going through HUGE transformation in terms of fighter compatible with in flight refuelling:

* 123 LCA
* 70 MiG-29UPG
* 60 M2K-5 MK.2
* 60+Jags
* 272 MKI

And for all that just 6 tankers? Surely the lowest fighter/tanker ratio in the world.

Image

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 97792?s=20 ---> That’s almost 600 fighters for 6 tankers (100:1). Even the IAF’s much longed for new generation tanker contest (won twice by Airbus) will only bring this down to 50:1 (if IL-78s remain), is that even enough to keep squadron pilots current on in flight refuelling?

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 01793?s=20 ---> Oh and don’t forget the 11 C-130J-30 the IAF have with AAR probes. It doesn’t seem like the IAF has any plans to have more than 6-12 tankers for the foreseeable future but they’ll be adding 100s more fighters in the not too distant future, all in flight refuelling capable.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 74752?s=20 ----> The 3 Netra and 3 Phalcon also have in flight refuelling capability. This is a VAST fleet that to be served by just 6-12 tankers. Cannot see how it’s possible to keep all flight crew current in it.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 03104?s=20 ----> The IAF is always talking about “force multipliers”, tankers enhance the capability of fighters by a factor of 60-100% in some cases. Similarly true of AWACS. Support systems is an area Indian Mil are woefully inadequate in almost every area

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8061
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 20 Mar 2020 00:18

dkhare wrote:I don't know if this was posted before but Sameer Joshi (@joe_sameer) just posted a video of the Tejas performing an inflight refueling. Pretty smooth approach to the drogue - that FCS setting for IFR doing its thing.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1240650137900175360

Commentators in the thread wonder if it's a Jaguar due to the cockpit frame / HUD. I think the retractable probe of the Jaguar looks very different. The Tejas does have a frame around its HUD.

These videos are from 2018. They are from Tejas.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:23

Some very relevant tweets for the Tejas Mk1.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 92832?s=20 ---> IAF seems to have lost sight of the fact that the Tejas is a MiG-21 replacement but I guess they’ve backed themselves into this position by refusing to induct LCA earlier and then converting some MiG-21 squadrons to Su-30-MKI squadrons, are also blind to reality that LCA can replace MiG-27s and even Jags.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 87489?s=20 ---> Hilariously enough it seems IAF is happier to keep flying these flying coffins and hold out for their silver bullets (MWF/MMRCA) than to induct the LCA MK1/1A in large scale orders (120++) they could’ve inducted LCA almost a decade back but kept creating hurdles to this.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 49184?s=20 ---> Frankly IAF could order 20+20+140 (IOC+FOC+MK1A) and replace all obsolete MiG-21 (and a few MiG-27) squadrons but they are the epitome of letting perfect be the enemy of good enough. They want bigger and better i.e. MK2/MWF hence low orders for MK1/A.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 55648?s=20 ---> Production rates follow orders. 20+ is possible but it’s 16 because of the projected orders. You have to ask the IAF why they aren’t ordering more- they can’t use the excuse of low production rates to justify these measly orders as that is entirely their fault.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 97857?s=20 ---> Currently it’s around 12/year. Will be 16/year shortly and can be ramped go to 20+/year if they are given large enough orders.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 88576?s=20 ----> If IAF had any sense they would increase this 83 to 99 and simultaneously order another 16 Mk1 FOC. That way they negate any risk of the LCA line standing still between MK1/1A and 1A/MWF switches and also give them 2 additional SQNs that they desperately need.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8471
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 20 Mar 2020 00:25

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1240600051447201793?s=20 ---> Oh and don’t forget the 11 C-130J-30 the IAF have with AAR probes. It doesn’t seem like the IAF has any plans to have more than 6-12 tankers for the foreseeable future but they’ll be adding 100s more fighters in the not too distant future, all in flight refuelling capable.

Those C-130J's should have been KC-130J's. A big opportunity lost.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:26

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 01378?s=20 ---> With Air Commodore KA Muthanna (Retd) - Chief of Test Flying, HAL - during the shoot of a new edition of @tarmaktalking. Almost 60 years now, he became the 'youngest' grinning face Indian Test Pilot to undertake the first flight of a fighter - Tejas SP-21. Some achievement that!

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:28

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 44355?s=20 ----> DARE's MAYAVI EW Suite developed especially for Tejas. Few components from this suite like Tarang 2 RWR is used in the Su-30MKI too. EW suite includes an RWR, MAW and an LWR system, Infrared & Ultraviolet missile warning sensors, SPJ, chaff and flares dispenser, an ECM suite N a TRD.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:35

Look at that build quality. WOW! Very impressive. Good job! This is SP-16, IOC variant.

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 96128?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk1 has the best combo of lowest frontal radar cross section & longest Astra BVR missile combo in the IAF. No 1 air defence fighter, ideal for forward air bases. It can also employ precision LGBs, SPICE, etc. Goes a step further with AESA radar.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 00:37

Gurus, true?

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 52257?s=20 ---> Radome diameter determines the diameter of radar. Tejas Mk1 has a higher radome (nose cone base diameter) than Rafale. That means in every upgrade it can get a larger size AESA radar (eyes of the fighter, crucial for BVR missile fight) than Rafale.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 00:41

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/status/1240226201689444355?s=20 ----> DARE's MAYAVI EW Suite developed especially for Tejas. Few components from this suite like Tarang 2 RWR is used in the Su-30MKI too. EW suite includes an RWR, MAW and an LWR system, Infrared & Ultraviolet missile warning sensors, SPJ, chaff and flares dispenser, an ECM suite N a TRD.

BTW, this is for the Mk2, even though the model they have used in the pic looks like an Mk1. Very impressive nonetheless. With it's AESA radar, small size and relatively low RCS, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and Derby-ER plus this comprehensive protection suite the Mk2 will be a beast in air-to-air. Better than anything the IAF has save the Rafale. Add the DASH-ASRAAM/R-73 combo and its is excellent in WVR too.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3071
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2020 01:11

Rakesh wrote:Gurus, true?

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 52257?s=20 ---> Radome diameter determines the diameter of radar. Tejas Mk1 has a higher radome (nose cone base diameter) than Rafale. That means in every upgrade it can get a larger size AESA radar (eyes of the fighter, crucial for BVR missile fight) than Rafale.


Well I used to think the same, however it is not black & white.

How good a radar is determined by the power on-board. If you don't have enough power, you won't find a "large" AESA been used. No point having a 1200 TRM radar, with 2-3KW onboard power. That is why Uttam has only 750 TRM, despite LCA's large radome.

Another point is the TRM spacing. Smaller the spacing, higher the operating frequency, better the resolution. So you want to make the antenna ..smaller :D

Not to mention, future GaN Antenna, which will have even less TRM, hence smaller...!

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8471
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 20 Mar 2020 01:28

Power and size is one dimension. Thermal management is another. A larger radar requires more cooling and that needs to be provisioned. There are many things that limit sensor performance including how well the sensor is designed and the overall efficiency and the GaAs devices used. Radome size is just one of them but you can have throttled radar performance even within a fairly decent sized radar housing if you don't have provisions for ECS upgrades or choose not to do that (i.e. keep it SWaPC neutral).

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2226
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 20 Mar 2020 03:21

Yeh dil maange more!! Need to order another 20 Mk1s ASAP. Money is no problem since IAF drags out HAL’s payments for years anyway.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5033
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2020 03:41

With the first Mk1A supposed to be rolled off the assembly line in 2022-23, there is no point in ordering any more Mk1s. There is no assembly line that is idle as of now. All the focus must be on delivering the Mk1A in the defined schedule and finishing all 73 single seat Mk1A deliveries BEFORE 2029.

As you can see below, there is no gap in the schedule to accommodate more Mk1 orders. All it will do it slide the Mk1A deliveries to the right

2019-2020 -- 2 FOC single seaters (SP-21 and SP-22)
2020-2021 -- 14 FOC Single seaters (SP-23 onwards to SP-36)
2021-2022 -- 8 FOC trainers + 8 FOC trainers from the Mk1A batch
2023-2024 -- 14 Mk1A + 2 FOC trainers
2024-2025 -- 16 Mk1A
2025-2026 -- 16 Mk1A
2026-2027 -- 16 Mk1A
2027-2028 -- 11 Mk1A + 5 MWF (hopefully)

The only way the schedule can be contracted further is by increasing production to 20 Tejas Mk1As per year.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8061
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 20 Mar 2020 03:43

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1240600051447201793?s=20 ---> Oh and don’t forget the 11 C-130J-30 the IAF have with AAR probes. It doesn’t seem like the IAF has any plans to have more than 6-12 tankers for the foreseeable future but they’ll be adding 100s more fighters in the not too distant future, all in flight refuelling capable.

Those C-130J's should have been KC-130J's. A big opportunity lost.

Image

Upgrade the engines on the HS748 and turn them into mini tankers.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5033
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2020 03:44

Teaser for a Tarmak video on the first flight of SP-21


JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2734
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 20 Mar 2020 03:50

Seems SP-21, will be renumbered to 17.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/status/1239945898920005632?s=20
Are they numbered out of sequence? Logically this batch of fighters should have started at LA-5017, right? Unless the trainers are supposed to fill in the gaps, but usually two-seaters get a different alphabet identifier (KH-KT, Cx-U, JS-JT etc).


https://twitter.com/shubawas2/status/1240705391454875648?s=20
It is infact now LA 5017 :-)

Suggestion implemented

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5033
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2020 04:14

Wow! Never seen a suggestion like that implemented so fast! nice job by Angad Singh to point it out.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4222
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Mar 2020 04:30

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1240598936693268480?s=20 ---> When looking at this pic, a thought struck me - IAF is going through HUGE transformation in terms of fighter compatible with in flight refuelling:

* 123 LCA
* 70 MiG-29UPG
* 60 M2K-5 MK.2
* 60+Jags
* 272 MKI

And for all that just 6 tankers? Surely the lowest fighter/tanker ratio in the world.

Image

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 97792?s=20 ---> That’s almost 600 fighters for 6 tankers (100:1). Even the IAF’s much longed for new generation tanker contest (won twice by Airbus) will only bring this down to 50:1 (if IL-78s remain), is that even enough to keep squadron pilots current on in flight refuelling?

Not too long ago iaf had a much larger fleet and almost zero tankers. Most of the fleet had shorter legs to boot. Now almost half the fleet is made up of ultra long ranged MKI. these can also do buddy refueling.

So I don't think there is too much need for rnd. They must have thought of this.... Although the c130s were indeed a missed opportunity.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 04:35

Cain Marko wrote: They must have thought of this....

They did. They were trying to buy 6 more tankers remember? That deal went nowhere.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5033
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2020 04:42

Nothing new mentioned in the article, but posting it nevertheless.

Image

India's lastest LCA standard gets airborne

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the first flight of the Light Combat Aircraft (also known as Tejas) Mk1 in its Final Operational Configuration (FOC) on March 17. The aircraft was flown by HAL’s chief of fixed-wing test flying, Air Commodore (Retd) K.A. Muthanna. The aircraft lifted from HAL Airport at Bengaluru just after noon and was airborne for around 40 minutes. Low-speed taxi trials had begun on March 10.

FOC represents the final iteration of the baseline LCA Mk1, most noticeably adding a fixed refueling probe on the starboard side of the forward fuselage, which raises endurance to more than eight hours. From a combat viewpoint the main changes are that the FOC aircraft has a gun in the form of the Russian-designed GSh-23 twin-barrel 23mm cannon, and Rafael Derby beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles.

HAL received the go-ahead for series production of the FOC variant in February 2019, and will now produce a further 15 aircraft to equip a second LCA Mk1 squadron within the Indian Air Force. Currently, No. 45 “Flying Daggers” Squadron operates 16 earlier LCA Mk1s in the Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) from Sulur Air Force Station in Tamil Nadu. Its aircraft are due to be upgraded to FOC standard at some point. No. 18 “Flying Bullets” Squadron is expected to be the second LCA unit, also to be based at Sulur.

Series production of LCA Mk1s is to cover 40 aircraft for the IAF, comprising 16 each of the IOC and FOC standards, and eight two-seaters for training. They follow two technology demonstrators (TD), five prototypes (PV), two prototypes of a naval version (NP), and eight limited series production (LSP) aircraft that have been engaged in trials.

HAL and the Tejas team are now awaiting the contract to begin work on building 10 more trainers and 83 LCA Mk1A aircraft, an interim variant to be procured pending full development of the LCA Mk2. The Mk1A has an e-scan radar, external jammer pods, and numerous avionics and aerodynamic improvements. The definitive Mk2—also known as the Medium Weight Fighter—features a more powerful General Electric F414 engine and internal electronic protection suite, among many other advances.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4222
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Mar 2020 04:55

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: They must have thought of this....

They did. They were trying to buy 6 more tankers remember? That deal went nowhere.

Yeah but there hardly seems much urgency about it. The mrca and rafale purchases seemed higher priority.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5033
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2020 04:55

From FlightGlobal. Need to confirm the 2 years spares support from HAL bit. And CNC nod and contract signature won't take a year, so an obvious error there. He's right about the 14 IOC fighters delivered to No.45 squadron. Even in the last teaser video from Tarmak, I could spot an IOC SP jet next to SP-21 (now SP-17). Can tell by the fact that it doesn't have the refueling probe. Both SP-15 and SP-16 have been at HAL for a while now. My guess is, somehow helping with testing and certification activities, else no reason why they're not with No.45 squadron.

Deal for 83 Tejas fighters passes bureaucratic hurdle

By Mike Rajkumar|19 March 2020

New Delhi will acquire 83 Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Tejas Mk-1A light fighters for the air force at an estimated cost of $5.3 billion, pending cabinet approval.

The acquisition process is moving forward following the finalisation of contractual and other issues by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), according to a government statement.

The deal still needs Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval before a formal contract can be signed off. This could take another year.

Deliveries are to begin three years after contract signature, HAL is preparing for a peak production rate of 16 aircraft per year.

The 83-aircraft buy will be broken into two components, with HAL delivering the aircraft in operational configuration. The air force will develop both the base and maintenance infrastructure.

The procurement cost of $5.3 billion covers 73 single-seat Tejas Mk1As and 10 twin-seat trainers in addition to sensors, weapons and associated equipment and spares support from HAL for a period of two years, a company official tells FlightGlobal.


The Tejas Mk-1A will feature an Elta 2052 AESA radar and MBDA’s ASRAAM, a Unified Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite, On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), Upgraded Avionics and Cobham in-flight refuelling (IFR) probe. The cockpit displays will also be upgraded and new indigenous weapons integrated.

HAL had earlier received orders for 40 Tejas aircraft. In 2006 the air force ordered 20 Tejas aircraft in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration, and in 2010 ordered 20 aircraft in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration.

Of these, 14 single-seat Tejas Mk-1s in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration have been delivered and are operational with No. 45 Sqn ‘Flying Daggers’ based out of Sulur air force base in South India.

The first Tejas in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration made its maiden flight earlier this week. Three more aircraft are to be delivered in the next few months and HAL plans to complete the order in 2021, the official says. These aircraft will be operated by No 18 Sqn ‘Flying Bullets’.


HAL has built a total of 37 Tejas aircraft so far. These comprise two Technology Demonstrators (TD-1, TD-2), six prototypes (PV1 - PV6), eight Limited Series Production aircraft (LSP1 - LSP-8), two Naval Prototypes (NP1, NP2), 16 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Tejas MK-1s and 4 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) Tejas MK-1s.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 05:07

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:They did. They were trying to buy 6 more tankers remember? That deal went nowhere.

Yeah but there hardly seems much urgency about it. The mrca and rafale purchases seemed higher priority.

MRCA procurement was started 20 years ago...

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4222
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Mar 2020 05:24

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Yeah but there hardly seems much urgency about it. The mrca and rafale purchases seemed higher priority.

MRCA procurement was started 20 years ago...

Point is.... In context of that tweet, how will 6 tankers make that much difference?

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 169
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 20 Mar 2020 07:13

Kartik wrote:
Deal for 83 Tejas fighters passes bureaucratic hurdle

The acquisition process is moving forward following the finalisation of contractual and other issues by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), according to a government statement.

The deal still needs Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval before a formal contract can be signed off. This could take another year.



It could take one more year for formal contract...??? I thought only CCS approval is the last stage...

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 10:01

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:MRCA procurement was started 20 years ago...

Point is.... In context of that tweet, how will 6 tankers make that much difference?

Replied here: viewtopic.php?p=2421955#p2421955

Would have been off-topic here.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 20 Mar 2020 10:07

LakshmanPST wrote:


It could take one more year for formal contract...??? I thought only CCS approval is the last stage...

MoD will move at its own pace regardless of other considerations like falling squadron strength and a Mig-21 fleet on its last legs etc. Expecting more from them is setting yourself up for disappointment.

In this case however the first Mk1A is not going to fly before 2022 anyway, so another year for the contract will not delay it, as long as HAL gets the money on time. There are already thousands of crores of payments from IAF to HAL which are past due. If the MoD can clear those HAL might be in good shape for the initial batch.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2020 10:46

We have to hope HAL-ADA-IAF and associated sub-assembler can deliver Mk1A in time. So used to delays that we could add +3-years as a margin of error to those announced schedules :((
Kartik wrote:With the first Mk1A supposed to be rolled off the assembly line in 2022-23, there is no point in ordering any more Mk1s. There is no assembly line that is idle as of now. All the focus must be on delivering the Mk1A in the defined schedule and finishing all 73 single seat Mk1A deliveries BEFORE 2029.

As you can see below, there is no gap in the schedule to accommodate more Mk1 orders. All it will do it slide the Mk1A deliveries to the right

2019-2020 -- 2 FOC single seaters (SP-21 and SP-22)
2020-2021 -- 14 FOC Single seaters (SP-23 onwards to SP-36)
2021-2022 -- 8 FOC trainers + 8 FOC trainers from the Mk1A batch
2023-2024 -- 14 Mk1A + 2 FOC trainers
2024-2025 -- 16 Mk1A
2025-2026 -- 16 Mk1A
2026-2027 -- 16 Mk1A
2027-2028 -- 11 Mk1A + 5 MWF (hopefully)

The only way the schedule can be contracted further is by increasing production to 20 Tejas Mk1As per year.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11653
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Mar 2020 11:04

If this the time line, we can never fight a war. Pakistan will more execute Terror strikes with impunity. This is just strategic stupidly on the part of Indian establishment asking to hit, I guess if children are in US who cares if India gets hit.

Defense weakness invites invasions and proper defense preparedness cannot come without Indian Defense production, 1000 years of strategic stupidity is being continued.

Imports unless like what the Soviets did in the 68-71 will never help India win a war and lead to the nation being safe. If we fail to capitalize on LCA success with heavy production as a Nation we will fail again.

Guess the people with power to do something don't realize this. A military stalemate with Pakistan is just a temporary truce begging for an attack in the future.

Pakistan intelligence agencies and terror agencies will forget 26-Feb-19 in a short while as long as it does not result in the humiliation of the Pakistan miltary will keep trying.

To deter we need proper MIC, not 2 aircraft, 8 AIrcraft a year etc.

It might sound a bit of rant but that is the plain truth. At some point this just blaming HAL/ the people producing at the aircraft should not be kept, this is a National failure if we keep going about like this and all Indians are part of such stupid decisions.

Somebody must take a call on MK1/MK1A production and get things seeded up.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 20 Mar 2020 11:08, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19145
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2020 11:04

nam wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Gurus, true?

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 52257?s=20 ---> Radome diameter determines the diameter of radar. Tejas Mk1 has a higher radome (nose cone base diameter) than Rafale. That means in every upgrade it can get a larger size AESA radar (eyes of the fighter, crucial for BVR missile fight) than Rafale.


Well I used to think the same, however it is not black & white.

How good a radar is determined by the power on-board. If you don't have enough power, you won't find a "large" AESA been used. No point having a 1200 TRM radar, with 2-3KW onboard power. That is why Uttam has only 750 TRM, despite LCA's large radome.

Another point is the TRM spacing. Smaller the spacing, higher the operating frequency, better the resolution. So you want to make the antenna ..smaller :D

Not to mention, future GaN Antenna, which will have even less TRM, hence smaller...!


A lot of what you have written above is mistaken.

Antenna size is linked to gain. A high gain antenna uses its power far more effectively than a more powerful one. If designers could, they would maximize gain. A smaller antenna with more power needs to compensate with much higher power ratings to match up to a larger one.

Next TRM size or number has nothing to do with power ratings unless you know what power ratings per TRM are. Obviously designers with more experience and access to the latest technology will have more compact TRMs often lower power, which they can pack into a radar.

Coming to resolution, higher the antenna size, smaller the beam width possible and better the resolution, frequency apart. Again, larger radars are favored over smaller ones.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8122
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Mar 2020 11:27

^^^Correct. A larger surface area will increase the effective aperture and result in more power transmitted and received. Unless there is some other limitation due to noise, using GaN TRMs will have less current draw on power supplies. Think of the antenna as a lens, the larger (diameter) the lens, the better the resolution.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8500
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2020 19:04

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 56512?s=20 ---> A great shot of Tejas captured by @tarmaktalking Video Editor, Murali during a recent shoot.

Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests