Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2020 04:09

Nice article IR!! I hope it becomes the gold standard when people want to look up stuff.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Raman » 19 May 2020 04:10

IR - wonderful article!

One small typo - HUMS stands for Health and Usage Monitoring System.

(Forum ate my previous reply(?!))

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 May 2020 04:46

Indranil wrote:They are still very old school. We will let the product speak for itself. I know a few people in ADA are trying to fight for more marketing/disinformation. But right now it is falling on deaf ears. ADA is a lad full of brilliant scientist and engineers.

IR while you know best, based on what i have heard from some junior folks in DRDO is that they have a mindset of not getting into media things. The reason is that these are muddy waters, lot of things happening behind scenes and people dont want to take position and then find themselves out of favor with an administration

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 13:07

Kartik wrote:
Indranil wrote:No. Those are ferry ranges. But, we made a typographic error in reporting there. It was supposed to be 2750 kms.

The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.


This outdated mentality at ADA/HAL had better change fast. In some ways they're stuck in a time warp. the PSU mentality of not being worried about marketing due to a captive customer won't work with exports one bit.

Thanks for the clarification IR. I find this part of spec very mysterious and it is perfectly okay to be classified if it helps IAF. The Wiki figure for ferry range is 3200 km, and it gives reference to a Flight Global's archived site that mentions 1750 km. It is true that Bangalore-Jaisalmer distance is close to 2100 km, but direct air to air distance is 1710 km! This would not be same as actual flight path, but that info is not available. Also, 1750 mi is 2816 km and 1750 nmi is 3240 km, closer to Wiki value!

Just saying, too many coincidences! Would it be possible to edit the typo in your (and Nilesh's) DDR article as perhaps there are now the go to sites for proper information?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 19 May 2020 13:22

If ADA cannot do it, then volunteers should chip in. ADA can release data points from time to time and volunteers can take it forward.The biggest lesson from the LCA program is the openness of the development process. This allows followers of the LCA to counter hit jobs using technical points.

When a reporter who was part of the hitjob, gets repeatably gets countered, then he looses his credibility.

The advent of SM has made it difficult to sustain a hit job narrative. With the political class now being accessible on SM platforms, it reaches their ear quite easily.

It is very important that groups in SM be educated of the achievements we have made on our programs so far. MSM cannot always fool the crowd then.
Last edited by nam on 19 May 2020 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 13:24

Indranil wrote:
basant wrote:Thanks for the wonderful rebuttal IR. I am confused about ferry range mentioned in the article and the one in 2019. The latter gives ferry range as 1750km while the former, in context of endurance, mentions 2800km. Can you clarify please?

Edit: To me it looks like comparison of internal fuel only vs w/ external fuel.

No. Those are ferry ranges. But, we made a typographic error in reporting there. It was supposed to be 2750 kms.

The ferry range of LCA is around that much. ADA and HAL don't care to find brochure numbers. That's the problem. If it were SAAB, they would have a flight out to see on a good day and find out how long they can keep it in the air under the most favorable conditions. I am not blaming SAAB here. I am blaming HAL/ADA. They don't need to fight the LMs of the world in global competitions to export Tejas. They don't find the need to do these kind of number generations. Those who suggest such things are looked down at.



Rakesh please edit the ferry range of Tejas mk1 to 2800km instead of 1750km on page 1.

Indranil has mentioned the typo error .

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby csaurabh » 19 May 2020 16:11

Need to have dedicated media people and marketing department to dispel import lobby's propaganda and promote own products.. It is not some hobby or extra curricular activity that can be handed out to jr. scientists.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 18:30

sankum wrote:Rakesh please edit the ferry range of Tejas mk1 to 2800km instead of 1750km on page 1.

Indranil has mentioned the typo error .

I have made the correction. Thanks Sankum.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 19 May 2020 18:45

ashishvikas wrote:Removing Some Media Fallacies About The Capabilities of The LCA Tejas Fighter

By Indranil Roy

http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/05/1 ... s-fighter/


Great Job Indranil. Thank You!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby dinesha » 19 May 2020 21:11

Vishnu Som interview with Air Force Chief
https://www.ndtv.com/video/exclusive/nd ... ome-videos
Talks about LCA, AMCA at around 10:10
also on TV tonight at 10:00 PM

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:17

Tejas Mk1, SP-17

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 19 May 2020 21:18

Bloody Hell! Who took this photo?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:19

Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 21:32

Rakesh wrote:Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:37

This is weird. I can't find the link now. And you are correct it is KH-2017 and not LA-5017.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 21:53

Rakesh wrote:This is weird. I can't find the link now. And you are correct it is KH-2017 and not LA-5017.

:(
I hope HD version would be uploaded soon. It looks stunning! The canopy looks more optimized, I guess may be there is just a little bit of nose drop too. I thought it might be a trainer, but of course it isn't. Hat's off to whoever made it.

And thanks for uploading it sir!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mollick.R » 19 May 2020 22:44

basant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Found it on twitter sir. I believe it is just an art work. Let me find the link again.

It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.


Sir(s), able to locate the source/artist of this wonderful creation................

BY NishithV © 2018 - 2020 NishithV

https://www.deviantart.com/nishithv/art/Tejas-3d-763796883

Open the link , click on expand button & there is a HD version 1920x800px (PNG fie format) 2.28 MB size is available to download.
Last edited by Mollick.R on 19 May 2020 22:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 22:46

You are amazing! I got the picture from a Tweet. You found the real diamond. HD quality too :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 19 May 2020 23:14

Mollick.R wrote:
basant wrote:It is wonderful piece of art I think. Some details are missing (low resolution?), esp in the tail (such as # of perforations). But there are many little features that are present, such as letters on evelons. The most interesting part is its tail number. It's KH-2017 (LSP-7) against LA-5017/21.


Sir(s), able to locate the source/artist of this wonderful creation................

BY NishithV © 2018 - 2020 NishithV

https://www.deviantart.com/nishithv/art/Tejas-3d-763796883

Open the link , click on expand button & there is a HD version 1920x800px (PNG fie format) 2.28 MB size is available to download.

No sir please and thanks for the gem! I loved the Mig-29K pic too!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 20 May 2020 06:28

Indranil Good job.

Arjun pandit et al., No need to refute popular press stories as it's a mud fight. Besides with MAD in charge no need to waste in frivolous activity of countering lies.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 20 May 2020 16:26

From HVT, a cryptic message:

Source: https://twitter.com/nishthavaan/status/ ... 2267516929
Smiles
@nishthavaan
@hvtiaf sir, is ferry range of Tejas Mk1 much less than that of Gripen C/D? It seems like it is about half (1750 km vs 3200 km). Please reply only if it isn't classified. Would Mk-1A have higher range?


Reply: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1262907015816523782
Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to @nishthavaan
They're have the same engine and same weight. Only brochures are different.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby raghuk » 20 May 2020 17:00

It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 20 May 2020 17:53

Clever sharp reply. Gets those questioning to think for themselves a bit more ;) That’s really the way to get through to people these days with short attention spans. Catchy Sound bites!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 20 May 2020 20:44

srai wrote:Clever sharp reply. Gets those questioning to think for themselves a bit more ;) That’s really the way to get through to people these days with short attention spans. Catchy Sound bites!

Correct me if I am wrong, this is the first time that someone/some agency connected with Tejas indicated that its range is close to Gripen's. Even ADA brochure on its website makes no mention of a basic parameter like ferry range! HVT tweeted earlier in a response that endurance and range is 'huge', whatever number that it was meant to represent. :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 May 2020 23:13

unfortunately public is drunk on H'wood movies and rest on brochures...there are only a few who dont pay attention to them..some happen to be here

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 20 May 2020 23:22

raghuk wrote:It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures


So let's blame them for doing a good job on marketing rather than improving on it ourselves, right?

The sooner HAL/ADA and all other DRDO labs get rid of this attitude of lackluster marketing, the better. A product's image is built by how it is marketed. DRDO and all PSUs tend to be hopeless at this. Some of the brochures that are prepared are like stuck in a different era itself.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SidSoma » 20 May 2020 23:41

Kartik wrote:
raghuk wrote:It's the same with many foreign helicopters and systems too. They are excellent and unbeatable in brochures


So let's blame them for doing a good job on marketing rather than improving on it ourselves, right?

The sooner HAL/ADA and all other DRDO labs get rid of this attitude of lackluster marketing, the better. A product's image is built by how it is marketed. DRDO and all PSUs tend to be hopeless at this. Some of the brochures that are prepared are like stuck in a different era itself.


I totally agree with you. I see this as the shortsightedness of the Indian system (govt, babus, HAL mgmt). Tejas has always been seen as something for the Indian forces, even with ATAGS, Dhruv, Arjun and all our missiles + radars. They have all been created with only one force in mind and without any thought to market/sell any where else. Hence only conservative, SDRE numbers are released to public. I mean on the other hand we have JF-17 block 3 being touted as a counter to Rafale F3. I see this as an extension of the Indian mentality.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Larry Walker » 21 May 2020 01:48

It's like putting the cart before the horse. Weapons need to be evaluated by professional experts who have indepth understanding and insight. If the claim is that some glossy brochure sways them then I don't know what to say about these purported experts. What I suspect is that no matter how hard we try to believe otherwise, but these experts don't have their hearts in the right place and their loyalties are not aligned with nations best interests. They do the hanky-panky on their own accord and temptations. And then they conveniently use these shiny brochures to convince us aam janta on honesty of their decision.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Larry Walker » 21 May 2020 01:57

Example is any new products or black-projects of the USA. When they are evaluated, there are no competing glossy brochures to influence, the stakeholders and experts evaluate these against requirements already agreed. Glossy brochures are printed much later to circulate in arms fairs and to be send to aviation magazines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 21 May 2020 02:34

Larry Walker wrote:It's like putting the cart before the horse. Weapons need to be evaluated by professional experts who have indepth understanding and insight. If the claim is that some glossy brochure sways them then I don't know what to say about these purported experts. What I suspect is that no matter how hard we try to believe otherwise, but these experts don't have their hearts in the right place and their loyalties are not aligned with nations best interests. They do the hanky-panky on their own accord and temptations. And then they conveniently use these shiny brochures to convince us aam janta on honesty of their decision.


Brochure specs are what drives a certain image of a type. And MOST people, even so called experts, go by those brochure specs till they actually get to evaluate it which is wayyy down the chain of analysis. It is the reason why Gripen C/D is so highly extolled, whereas a Tejas Mk1 that is 90-95% as capable as it, gets targeted with all sorts of lies about range, payload, maintenance issues, not meeting requirements, etc.

Saab constantly and I mean constantly harps on and on about it's features (which the Tejas has as well) and low operating costs. Do you ever hear DRDO talking about low operating costs? Or how many man-hours of maintenance per sortie? I'm sure it's comparable if not better than Gripen, yet there is next to ZERO effort made to market it to the public and build up an image of a product that is world class.

Because Saab has to sell it's products mostly on the export market, they need a positive perception of their products. DRDO and PSUs have a captive customer who is now going to be come even more of a captive customer with the new decree to buy indigenous as much as possible. So why even bother to spend the effort right? The Armed Forces will have to come to them anyway. But will exports work with this lackluster marketing?


Is it the job of people like Indranil, HVT and others to dispel myths about the Tejas? To educate the masses and put a positive spin? What about those who are actually building the product and then offering golis telling that other nations are interested in their products when the results don't show that? Are those people that naive that they don't know what perception of a product means?

99% of the aam junta cannot tell whether a certain claim made in a brochure is true or not. And then from among those 99% arise those who build up a narrative of a failed project, a project that doesn't meet IAF's needs and so on. Even today on FB, I saw some 2-3 Indian idiots pontificating that spending $5.3 billion on Tejas Mk1A is a waste and that IAF should buy Gripen instead. I cannot tell you how irritated I was to read that, but can I blame those idiots for not having spent too much time reading up and finding the true details? IMO, the blame for this is the image created by the lifafa journalists compounded by the complete lack of marketing and that blame lies only on the doorstep of DRDO and PSUs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 21 May 2020 02:53

I'll give another example- the combat range figure of the Tejas versus the advertised range of the Saab Gripen C/D. As HVT said, similar engine, similar weight, similar fuel, so the truth should be obvious right? Yet, Saab gains a positive image by clever marketing whereas our numbers are probably 100% accurate and shorn of any polish volish or fine print to explain all the assumptions made to get to such a figure.

Saab knows fully well that they'll have to provide the real numbers IF and WHEN a real evaluation occurs. But what do you gain by doing that with generic marketing material that most of us consume? For that, they'll put out fancy numbers without revealing any details of what those figures mean or how they arrived at them. Just like the mileage assumptions that auto makers have to put in the fine print- drive straight without braking, on a completely even road at 50 kmph and no higher.

JF-17 fans actually believed that the JF-17's combat range was 2200 km because it was shown as the range at some Air show by the Chinese designers. And around that time, the Tejas website mentioned it's combat range to be 350 km with no mention of Ferry Range. I've tried arguing physics with so many posters on other forums asking them how 2 fighters with nearly identical weight, internal fuel and engine SFC can have diametrically opposite range figures.

Turns out the "range" that the Chinese were referring to was actually Ferry Range and not Combat Range, which was obvious to me but not to the 99% of Pakis who basically have no logic nor real understanding of the product. This is only now dawning upon those idiots after seeing new brochures that show it as the Ferry Range.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SidSoma » 21 May 2020 03:42

Kartik wrote:I'll give another example- the combat range figure of the Tejas versus the advertised range of the Saab Gripen C/D. As HVT said, similar engine, similar weight, similar fuel, so the truth should be obvious right? Yet, Saab gains a positive image by clever marketing whereas our numbers are probably 100% accurate and shorn of any polish volish or fine print to explain all the assumptions made to get to such a figure.

Saab knows fully well that they'll have to provide the real numbers IF and WHEN a real evaluation occurs. But what do you gain by doing that with generic marketing material that most of us consume? For that, they'll put out fancy numbers without revealing any details of what those figures mean or how they arrived at them. Just like the mileage assumptions that auto makers have to put in the fine print- drive straight without braking, on a completely even road at 50 kmph and no higher.

JF-17 fans actually believed that the JF-17's combat range was 2200 km because it was shown as the range at some Air show by the Chinese designers. And around that time, the Tejas website mentioned it's combat range to be 350 km with no mention of Ferry Range. I've tried arguing physics with so many posters on other forums asking them how 2 fighters with nearly identical weight, internal fuel and engine SFC can have diametrically opposite range figures.

Turns out the "range" that the Chinese were referring to was actually Ferry Range and not Combat Range, which was obvious to me but not to the 99% of Pakis who basically have no logic nor real understanding of the product. This is only now dawning upon those idiots after seeing new brochures that show it as the Ferry Range.


Added to this the underreporting of capabilities such as Max Payload. Why would you do that ??

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prithwiraj » 21 May 2020 04:38

Unlike commercial manufacturer no one within HAL will take the risk of garnishing data for the fear of so called corruption charges and CAG findings pointing out data fudging etc. For internal audiences. All the HAL leadership must be super defensive to protect their pension and post retirement benefits and not take the risk of being labeled as someone who was “caught”. Anyway they have done enough sacrifices by choosing to stay in a PSU instead of joining private sector in monetary terms. It is just from personal perspective not worth the risk and there is no incentive. There are enough vultures out there looking to pounce

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 24 May 2020 13:09

Big Day for Indian Air Force - On Wednesday, 27 May 2020, the Second Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Squadron- No. 18 Squadron, Flying Bullets will be inducted into the Indian Air Force.

The Squadron was earlier resurrected in April 2020, at Sulur, Tamil Nadu.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 90912?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 24 May 2020 21:44

Kartik wrote:
Because Saab has to sell it's products mostly on the export market, they need a positive perception of their products. DRDO and PSUs have a captive customer who is now going to be come even more of a captive customer with the new decree to buy indigenous as much as possible. So why even bother to spend the effort right? The Armed Forces will have to come to them anyway. But will exports work with this lackluster marketing?


HAL needs a private competitor.
Tejas can follow sea harrier model of manufacturing. The sea harrier variant was manufactured by Hawker sidley\Bae and AV-8B harrier variant by Mcdonal Douglas.
HAL can cater to IAF\IN and private guys adept at marketing and sales can focus on exports.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 May 2020 22:00

ashishvikas wrote:Big Day for Indian Air Force - On Wednesday, 27 May 2020, the Second Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Squadron- No. 18 Squadron, Flying Bullets will be inducted into the Indian Air Force.

The Squadron was earlier resurrected in April 2020, at Sulur, Tamil Nadu.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 90912?s=19

Amazing news! Do we know when in April 2020 the squadron was raised. Need to update page 1. Also any info on who the Squadron CO is?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 24 May 2020 22:43

:eek: Its Nirmaljit Sekhon’s squadron

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 May 2020 22:49

Indeed it is fanne. A great day for the IAF.

I found this on twitter...so will go with this date....

https://twitter.com/Leopard212/status/1 ... 94498?s=20 ---> Second Light Combat Aircraft TEJAS Squadron; No. 18 SQUADRON, Flying Bullets (Param Vir Chakra Sqn) - The Only Bravest Of The Brave Fighter Flying Unit of Indian Air Force will be the Second LCA TEJAS Squadron of the IAF. Was to be resurrected on 1 April 2020 (Old Air Force Day).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 25 May 2020 11:14

Here is twitter link with pics of La 5001 to La 5016 of No. 45 Flying Daggers

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/status/1264538162447224832

What is HAL's plan

1) manufacture 15 FOC single seaters in 2020-21

2) Manufacture 18 2 seat trainers in 2021-22

3) From Fy 2022-23 move to 73 MK1A single seat manufacturing.

I hope there is some Naval variants also going get produced.

wig
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby wig » 25 May 2020 17:13

Squadron of IAF’s sole PVC recipient Nirmaljit Sekhon to take to the skies again
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... gain-89771

Squadron of IAF’s sole PVC recipient Nirmaljit Sekhon to take to the skies again
The outfit, No. 18 Squadron, also known as ‘Flying Bullets’, has been resurrected at the Salur Air Force Station in Tamil Nadu on the indigenously made Tejas light combat aircraft and is being inducted into the Air Force on May 26

excerpts
The squadron was initially formed on the nimble Gnat fighter aircraft. It first saw action during the 1971 Indo-Pak war and operated out of Srinagar with the task of defending the Kashmir Valley. Sekhon, then just 28 and hailing from Ludhiana, was part of the deployment. On December 14, 1971, Sekhon, along with another officer, scrambled to counter an attack by Pakistan aircraft and shot three enemy Sabre jets in aerial combat. His own aircraft was hit and he went down. For his actions, he was decorated with the highest gallantry award.

After the war, the Gnats were replaced with HAL Ajeet in 1975. In May 1989, when the squadron was at Hindon, it received the MiG-27 and its role changed from air defence to ground attack. It then moved to Kalaikunda in the North-East, where it was awarded the President’s Standards in 2015 before flying into the sunset.


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