Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby putnanja » 01 Jun 2020 18:45

HAL engineer from Mysuru who flew into hearts of IAF with his matchless dedication to Tejas

Just days before his retirement, Yogi had received a commendation letter from the Indian Air Force at Air Force Station Sulur, when the second squadron of Tejas Flying Bullets was inducted.
...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kvraghav » 01 Jun 2020 18:50

Image
Is this the angle or the bird really looks this stunning. the sleekness and fit and finish is very good.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 01 Jun 2020 22:26

^^^
FOC look good :twisted:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Yagnasri » 01 Jun 2020 23:11

8

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Sravan » 01 Jun 2020 23:42



3rd LCA production line started


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jun 2020 04:27

kvraghav wrote:Image
Is this the angle or the bird really looks this stunning. the sleekness and fit and finish is very good.


Looks beautiful! It does seem that the FOC fit and finish is even better than IOC jets.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jun 2020 04:28



A sight that will warm every Tejas fanboy's heart. :D

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 02 Jun 2020 04:34

ashishvikas wrote:3rd #LCA #Tejas line for 18 @IAF_MCC trainers.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 62112?s=20

https://epaper.mailtoday.in/m5/2695826/ ... 0#page/9/1

Image


Third line for Tejas..?? Thats unexpected. The plan was to continue with existing 2 lines which have 16/yr capacity, to deliver the 16 FOC MK1 by March 2021, followed by the 18 Trainers batch for over 2 yrs, followed by the Mk1A batch. And side by side the Pvt Tier 1 to bolster

https://twitter.com/nileshjrane/status/ ... 85409?s=19


https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 18498?s=19
Line #3 is a dedicated trainer assembly line- total 18 trainers planned - 4 IOC-4 FOC- 10 Mk1A


Great news! Doesn't say where the new line will be set up though. Maybe someone should ask Sandeep on Twitter.

There is no major difference between the Tejas trainer and single seaters except for the forward fuselage. So, a third line could be used to deliver Tejas single seaters as well, once the trainers are delivered.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 02 Jun 2020 05:08

Karthik sir dil maange more only 8 birds there would love to have a pic with 16

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 06:14

Rafale or LCA: Where would a punter put his money on?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/1977891/
01 June 2020

By Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri - The author is an IAF veteran. Views expressed are personal.

As the Indian skies prepare for the reception of the Rafale, it already has had the taste of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) joining its fleet in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) version. The Indian Air Force (IAF) now has two Squadron of the LCA, one in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and one in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) versions and would soon have two squadrons of Rafale on its strength. Aviation purist would flinch at this statement, naming both the aircraft in the same breath, and rightly so, the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability, but where the smart man would bet his money is on the homegrown LCA.

The last indigenous fighter designed and built in India has been the HF Marut, an excellent piece of aerodynamics, let down by incompatible engines which were borrowed from the Gnat. The homegrown fighter has since, taken a step back, without adequate firm orders and a general feeling of inferiority by the military and the masses. Accentuated by the governments’ apathy towards R&D in the field, the LCA project took its own sweet time to fructify.

The LCA first emerged in its IOC avatar and lacked the requisite trimmings of a combat-ready fighter, whereas almost simultaneously the first MMRCA deal was being negotiated, the home lad was always looked down upon and considered inferior to its foreign adversaries. The failure of the first Rafale deal to fructify, gave the industry a small glimmer of a window to showcase its wares, coupled with this came the government’s policy of supporting the Indigenous military hardware to the maximum possible. The LCA now started being showcased, not only in India but also abroad, it was more to say that “I have arrived” rather than “ Buy Me”. People had just about started believing in the “Make in India” concept and were now ready to hold the hand of the fledgeling defence production industry.

What the IOC version lacked was made up to a large extent by the FOC version. The “g” limits have been increased to 8 g, the angle of attack limits have been enhanced to 24, new weapons have been integrated including the Beyond Visual Range ones, the Air to Air refuelling the capability has been added, the Pilot Vehicle Interfaces have been enhanced, to name a few, to finally give the LCA its teeth to hold its own in the fighter world.

Our defence production industries have started to emerge in the world market, albeit in a limited way, more and more crucial parts for major global production houses, are being supplied from India, a step which would have missed the eyes of many onlookers. An industry, which a couple of decades earlier had almost nothing to offer, now manufactures and exports equipment ranging from Laser optics to aircraft fuselage shells, from infrared trackers to software for situational awareness domain, the list is growing day by day. The main focus now would be to continue this steady progress and attain self-sufficiency. Easier said than done, the path is long and arduous, the proverbial child born, has to be nurtured through infancy to ensure it grows to compete against the world.

To get the present LCA to a comparable combat-capable platform would still need some work. The FOC has enhanced the potency of the platform, the AAR capability has ensured the LCA can now loiter longer and reach further, the BVR means, it can shoot without seeing. Increased ‘g’ limits and enhanced AoA limits make it more manoeuvrable. The LCA Mk1A would have an indigenous AESA radar with better PVIs. The AESA, developed indigenously, would propel the industry a fair amount of distance into the contemporary. Following the Mk1A is the LCA Mk2, a heavier, medium weight, powered by the more powerful single-engine and supporting canards to provide a high degree of manoeuvrability. This is where we are looking to break even against the modern-day Rafale. The date may not be in the immediate future but with the requisite support from all quarters, the defence production industries may pull out the proverbial rabbit from the hat. Once that’s done India would be self-sufficient.

The Rafale as of now looks a good bet because it comes off the shelf and made to order, however, it burns a major hole in the pocket and worse, if the nation once again takes to maximum reliance in defence imports, it would take us another few decades to have our own credible industry. It is imperative that the push offered by the military and the government be maintained to ensure that Indian products reach global standards.

By the time the LCA project is completed with the culmination of the Mk2, it is expected that the AMCA project would get a new vigour of life to propel itself as a true blue fifth-generation fighter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 07:14

^^^

...

Aviation purist would flinch at this statement, naming both the aircraft in the same breath, and rightly so, the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability, but where the smart man would bet his money is on the homegrown LCA.

...


LCA will forever be seen as “limited” due to its small size.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SaiK » 02 Jun 2020 07:35




Terrific! must send shudders from Hindu Kush through Tibet and all the way to Beijing via Chengdu!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vamsee » 02 Jun 2020 07:49

What Holds Back Indian Military Aviation Development – Historic Perspective By a Retired Surgeon

=======

Our own Shiv garu wrote it. The above touches the same points Shiv garu made in this BRF thread long back in 2012 (Must read thread for new BRFites) :-) ==> Link


--Vamsee

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Jun 2020 09:26

Rakesh wrote:Rafale or LCA: Where would a punter put his money on?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/1977891/
01 June 2020

By Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri - The author is an IAF veteran. Views expressed are personal.

Statements like this without context " the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability," seriously rile me.

Apples should be compared to apples.

An article that adds little to the debate...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2020 12:56

The last indigenous fighter designed and built in India has been the HF Marut, an excellent piece of aerodynamics, let down by incompatible engines which were borrowed from the Gnat.


I cannot get tired to mentioning that the biggest contribution towards the growth of Indian aerospace industry will be the decision to use F404 engine.

It is most modern engine in IAF arsenal even today, although it has been flying in Indian skies for close to 20 years now!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Jun 2020 13:39

Larry Walker wrote:xxxxx

Dude delete this post.
I was commenting on his ability to write an article.
Not his professional competence as an Air Force vet.
There are a lot of officers who I have great respect for in terms of the commitment and what they have achieved in the uniform but don't necessarily agree with on aspects of indigenisation or tech development. That does not that make them "xxx", "xxx" xxx".
They have formed a view based on their experiences with OFB and DRDO!!!!
When you lose a coursemate because his tank barrel blew up or because his ac crashed due to some manufacturing defect objectivity is a casualty.....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 02 Jun 2020 13:47

^ +1. Abusive statements are not acceptable. There are many IAF officials who have supported indigenization at great effort, lets keep that in mind.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Larry Walker » 02 Jun 2020 13:56

Ok, sorry, I think I became a little too emotional, but somewhere somehow we have to weed out all the desh-drohis linked to national security and defence procurement and make them pay for what they have done in terms of severely undermining the security and integrity of this nation just to make quick bucks and get foreign jaunts. They are no less that JaiChand and MirJafars who opened the gates from within.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Khalsa » 02 Jun 2020 14:04

Vamsee wrote:What Holds Back Indian Military Aviation Development – Historic Perspective By a Retired Surgeon
=======
Our own Shiv garu wrote it. The above touches the same points Shiv garu made in this BRF thread long back in 2012 (Must read thread for new BRFites) :-) ==> Link

--Vamsee


I have seen it in action many times myself and have heard of this being applied everywhere in the world in the western economies.
During spring time when its the time to plant tomatoes, Supermarkets drop the price of tomatoes of the said vegetable below the price of seedlings for 6 weeks. By doing this they ensure they have guaranteed customers for 46 weeks.

This is not a gora vs brown thing. Its a commercial thing.

Its time to plant our own seedlings and persist. People will drop the price of engine, other tech and airframe to ensure the indigenous child is still born.

Yes I grow my own tomatoes in abundance and freeze enough to last me throughout the winter too for my tarka etc.
I buy only for the Rafale salad.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 02 Jun 2020 16:11

If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.

ashishvikas wrote:LCA Tejas configuration - Max range 2000Km

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 91200?s=20

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby veejey » 02 Jun 2020 16:21

Don't know when this happened. It definately makes one proud about indigenous product.

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/126 ... 38528?s=19

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_P » 02 Jun 2020 16:36

W-o-W :shock:

Just keeps proving itself everytime it is asked to.

Our little bird is destined to be a falcon slayer

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 02 Jun 2020 16:40

Karan M wrote:^ +1. Abusive statements are not acceptable. There are many IAF officials who have supported indigenization at great effort, lets keep that in mind.

Even if they have not it is not any reason to call them names...Once bitten.....
There is still a generation of offers who have had to bear the brunt of the OFB...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 02 Jun 2020 16:50

Which is why I said abusive statements are not acceptable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_P » 02 Jun 2020 17:10

Rakesh wrote:Rafale or LCA: Where would a punter put his money on?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/1977891/
01 June 2020

By Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri - The author is an IAF veteran. Views expressed are personal.


Rakesh ji, Hope you will excuse this off-topic post from me but the title of your post was too much of co-incidence for me. Recently or so a business acquaintance of mine who does a lot of betting on cricket, told me that a punter (bookie) known to him had very recently actually accepted bets on the next IAF vs PAF 'match'. And i kid you not - this acquaintance has actually put a long term bet on a IAF kill of a PAF bird before 2024 at not too high odds. I think with the LOC hotting up and if COVID continues to keep sports events in limbo the satta market might actually start accepting bets on things like Tejas vs Thunder, first kill by? - Sukhoi, Rafale, MiG etc :lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 17:15

veejey wrote:Don't know when this happened. It definately makes one proud about indigenous product.

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/126 ... 38528?s=19

Gp Capt MJA Vinod(retd)
@MjaVinod
·
2h
Let me tell you as a pilot
Measure of performance of an aeroplane is my yardstick
We have annual weapon delivery competition in the #IAF
In the first ever competition that #Tejas participated in, it bagged trophy in most of the disciplines

I rest my case
#MMRCA #FGFA

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 17:24

Kartik wrote: There is no major difference between the Tejas trainer and single seaters except for the forward fuselage. So, a third line could be used to deliver Tejas single seaters as well, once the trainers are delivered.


I think HAL is thinking ahead for the 3rd line to continue as a trainer production especially if the SPORT variant gets orders. Easily a potential of 40-80 units from the IAF/IN I would think (if money available) for Operational Flying Training Units.

The other would be limited production orders for NLCA. Potential orders of 8-16 units there as well from the IN.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby veejey » 02 Jun 2020 19:03

srai wrote:
Kartik wrote: There is no major difference between the Tejas trainer and single seaters except for the forward fuselage. So, a third line could be used to deliver Tejas single seaters as well, once the trainers are delivered.


I think HAL is thinking ahead for the 3rd line to continue as a trainer production especially if the SPORT variant gets orders. Easily a potential of 40-80 units from the IAF/IN I would think (if money available) for Operational Flying Training Units.

The other would be limited production orders for NLCA. Potential orders of 8-16 units there as well from the IN.


Apart from that Tejas can be an attractive proposition for exports to friendly countries. This can be achieved only when requirement of IAF is fulfilled. 3rd line can certainly address that.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby darshan » 02 Jun 2020 19:28

One can't export what one can't procure. It flies on American engine. Even India doesn't know that there will be enough supply of engines given many milestones that India needs to achieve that US doesn't prefer.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 19:55

^^^
License production of F-404/414 needs to be pursued given few hundred units requirement over the next two decades.

And also an export license agreement for imported parts/engines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 20:50

Gyan wrote:If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.

I remember IR once saying something similar with regards to the bolded part. I have to find that post, which is like finding a needle in a haystack. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but if IR sees this...perhaps he can state it again.

Once thing is certain ----> there is more space for the Mk1A beyond the 123 Tejas (40 Mk1s which will be converted into Mk1A + 83 Mk1As on order). That realization will dawn once the Mk1A flies. If someone can write up an opinion piece - providing data to back it up - I will add it on the first page.

A production run of 200 Tejas Mk1A (in total) will make it a successful program for India. Minus the 123 order and you are left with 77 aircraft or around 4 units. It is definitely doable. Additional Mk1As will come, the only sticking point is how many.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 20:57

ks_sachin wrote:Statements like this without context " the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability," seriously rile me.

Apples should be compared to apples.

An article that adds little to the debate...

The Wing Commander makes a good case for additional Tejas orders, where in the latter part of the same sentence above he states, ".... but where the smart man would bet his money is on the homegrown LCA."

He makes the point of Rafale vs Tejas, to counter the argument that additional phoren MMRCA are needed in triple digits because the IAF does not want to adopt Tejas in large numbers. The bulk of the fleet will be Tejas, with silver bullets like the Rafale. There is no money for 114 phoren fighters. That is not going to happen.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 02 Jun 2020 21:06

I don't think we will go very much ahead of 83 LCA MK1A (or I am hoping we don't). It will take some 5-6 years for 83 LCA MK1A. I hope MWF (LCA mk2) is ready by then and the 114 MMCRA circus is put in dustbin for good. Else any delay, MMCRA becomes a reality and it eats up both MK1A and MK2 numbers, maybe kill MK2 for good.
To balance out and IAF have tech edge, more Rafale has to be ordered, maybe another 36?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 21:15

^^^
MWF (and MMRCA 2.0) will take more than 6 years to develop/procure and build up numbers. These are targets that will likely be much more closer to 2030 (or post 2030) than 2025.

In the meantime, India should plan for a good decade of LCA Mk1/A production run to bridge any gaps and delays. That would mean around 10-12 squadrons of Tejas by 2030.

With 13 squadrons of “heavy” Su-30MKI and 10-12 squadrons of “light” Tejas Mk1/A all set by 2030, the subsequent 2030-2040 period will all be about replacing 12 squadrons of “medium” category combat aircraft.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 21:27

HAL will soon have three Tejas lines, the Tejas Mk2 will not get inducted in IAF service within 5 - 6 years, all the MiG-21 Bisons will have retired by then and MMRCA will not be anywhere close to completion (assuming the contest gets underway) in that time frame. Another 36 Rafales will likely come, but the squadron strength will still be low.

If the IAF wants to wait for unobtanium (i.e. 114 MMRCA), then how dire is the squadron strength situation? You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 02 Jun 2020 21:38

Rakesh wrote: You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.

Sadly this is the likeliest outcome, unless the thinking is transformed

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 22:11

Fanne, read below....

https://twitter.com/ninadkulkarni2/stat ... 62757?s=20 ---> Do you think the current leadership is still thinking about MMRCA?

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 22625?s=20 ---> It seems like the CDS is against it, but IAF leadership who have had MMRCA in their future force structure plans for over 20 years need more convincing it seems. Let LCA be operationalised and MK1A deliver and reality will then bite.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 52802?s=20 ---> Indeed true. So let’s hope that MMRCA 2.0 is just a hedge in case LCA MK.2 is delayed. However by accounting for MMRCA 2.0 in future force structure inherently limits the commitments and projections that can be given for LCA Mk2s.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 30528?s=20 ---> This is the paradox of the situation. CAS speaks of inducting MMRCA 2.0 but other than a RFI there’s been ZERO progress on this front in the last 5 years - NONE. Given we know how exhaustive these deals are, it seems asinine to suggest this could be viable before MWF.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 62240?s=20 ---> I think it will continue for maybe another 3-4 years. By that time, Rafales will be delivered and Mk1A will be in production. Then MMRCA 2.0 will be silently forgotten like that short lived “single engine fighter” (Gripen vs F16) idea a few years back.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 09600?s=20 ---> “Perfection is the enemy of good enough.” For all of IAF’s history they have been importing mature foreign products and thus have not had the inclination to be a “builders air force” to work with industry. They expected a mature and fully developed platform from Day 1.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2020 22:17

^^^
If India had a defense export outlook, it would be mass producing LCA MK.1/A for the IAF ... and when something better comes along from the domestic pipeline, Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).

But sadly India still thinks like a number one arms importer by limiting domestic orders in piecemeal manner without understanding MIC requires sustained spending to feed the ecosystem. Orders of 36 import for Rafale should be viewed differently than 40 units of indigenous LCA. It’s no way to fund and establish indigenous efforts.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 22:21

srai wrote:...Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).

Like how Pakistan gets F-16s via "baksheesh" from Jordan with blessings from Unkil?

And also like how Pakistan upgrades her early model F-16s from Turkey, again with blessing from Unkil?

But because it is F-16....it is phoren (American) and so it is good :lol: We SDREs must never aim to think like this.


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