Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 03 Jun 2020 05:45

Yes i didnt want you to count that 40 for your challenge

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 05:45

:lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby shaun » 03 Jun 2020 08:40

So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jun 2020 08:50

Admiral,

In one of your posts above you asked us to starch our lungi's.

Pray tell how we do lungi dance with starched lungis. I am averse to pain!!!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 03 Jun 2020 10:00

[*]Thank you Rakesh (sir). :D

May be a blog from any of the gurus should be written explicitly showing that LCA is to be compared with non-updated version of Mirage 2000 and Jaguars. Given capability already demonstrated by Tejas, that would be a more forceful argument in favour of Tejas instead of comparing with Mig-21s, which is being utterly meek and even self-defeating.

shaun wrote:So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

:D

He actually quoted RRM Dr. Bhamre!

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jun 2020 14:25

Rakesh wrote:If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

thats over a sqdn per year..not bad..but would it make sense to give a pvt contractor too?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 03 Jun 2020 15:19

There is a real risk of a war with Pak or China in the next couple of years. 2023 is too far. We need more of FOC version now..

No point inducting Mk1A versions, when the balloon had already gone up..

We will end up with what has happened with Netra. Fabulous performance during Feb 26 strikes... but only one available for the fight.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jun 2020 15:40

nam wrote:There is a real risk of a war with Pak or China in the next couple of years. 2023 is too far. t.

There is a school of thought that given the kind of equipping of SF and the Airforce and the collaboration with some nation states we can see a takeout of Pak nuke capability in the time period you mentioned as well as retake of PoK.

Take it for what it is worth but came from the mouth of one of the most erudite General I have met.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 03 Jun 2020 17:06

ArjunPandit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

thats over a sqdn per year..not bad..but would it make sense to give a pvt contractor too?

83 units are too little to go around for another private assembly line. Order a lot more then yes. Even HAL has agreed to such a public-private venture.

As far as major components assembly (i.e. wings, fins, and fuselage), it’s already farmed out to at least 5-6 private companies. They have started delivering from SP-16. More orders I’m sure they can scaling up capacity or additional players could be brought in.

Bottom line, need volume orders. Rest will figure itself out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:08

Also, any one (or more) of the lines can be converted into a public-private venture if need be.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:13

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,

In one of your posts above you asked us to starch our lungi's.

Pray tell how we do lungi dance with starched lungis. I am averse to pain!!!

Starch only to remove the creases and wrinkles :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2020 21:22

basant wrote:
shaun wrote:So IAF have committed to procure altogether 18 squadrons of different variants of LCA as per HVT

He actually quoted RRM Dr. Bhamre!

18 squadrons of Tejas would mean 324 aircraft, assuming we adopt the 18 aircraft per squadron calculation.

1) 40 Tejas Mk1 (2 squadrons)
2) 83 Tejas Mk1A (4 squadrons)

Out of 324 aircraft (or 18 squadrons), that leaves 201 aircraft (or ~ 10 squadrons). Air Chief Marshal Bhaduria states that the IAF is looking for close to 100 Tejas Mk2s. Quote below....

IAF to acquire 450 fighter aircraft in future, says Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ria/593673

"In the next 15 years, 83 LCAs are our primary focus, after that LCA Mark 2 will come in we are looking at close to 100 of those, that makes it near 200 of LCA class," Bhadauria told ANI in an interview.

That still leaves 101 aircraft (or ~ 5 squadrons). It will be combination of Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2. The latter will definitely not meet her current deadlines. A scenario like Kartik said below will likely occur....a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2.

Kartik wrote:It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2020 23:30

Folks try to read the e-book. It's written by an IAF planning officer

https://idsa.in/book/combat-aviation-kkhera

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Roop » 04 Jun 2020 12:36

ks_sachin wrote:There is a school of thought that given the kind of equipping of SF and the Airforce and the collaboration with some nation states we can see a takeout of Pak nuke capability in the time period you mentioned as well as retake of PoK.

Take it for what it is worth but came from the mouth of one of the most erudite General I have met.


I think you are right (so I guess I am a member of that "school of thought" you spoke of 8) ). Of course, my opinion is based simply on my own assessment of international relations / tensions, plus the SF equipment buildup and training that you mentioned. I do not have any tips/hints/ishaaras from anyone in the know.

I'll just say this much: I have no idea if this will actually happen, but it would be highly irresponsible and foolish of India to not have serious contingency plans for exactly this kind of thing (in conjunction with "a few friends", of course). I would say, at minimum, The Mighty Khan (TMK) and Israel would have to be part of the plan. India could provide (a) its knowledge of the locations of Paknukes and (b) the military distractions to Pak in the east, i.e. a war to liberate PoK and GB. TMK (with its unmatched ISR and technical capabilities) and Israel (the only country in the world with actual successful experience in this kind of mission) would go about the job of actual location and destruction of the "jewels". Actually, rather than the jewels themselves, what should be first on the target list is the Paki delivery systems (F16s and various flavours of missiles).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Jun 2020 17:21

New Made-In-India Fighter Cleared For Development, First Flight In 6 Years
by Vishnu SomUpdated: June 04, 2020

The new fighter-jet will be designed to operate from the deck of India's two aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the soon to be inducted INS Vikrant.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/new-mad ... ssion=true

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby khan » 04 Jun 2020 19:12

FYI hvt_iaf twitter account is gone.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 04 Jun 2020 23:05

Again??
added later - his Twitter account is @hvtiaf. He's there on Twitter.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jun 2020 06:24

Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 05 Jun 2020 12:49

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:


:-? Yeah @hvtiaf is gone too. Not sure what's happening.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 05 Jun 2020 12:57

Rakesh wrote:A better point of reference would be how much money does China allocate for defence versus India.

If India truly aspires to be regional power, she has to increase her defence budget and invest significantly more in R&D and production of defence equipment. Whenever we hit 5T, matters little if India spends little on defence.



Quite true , by any metric india spends less on r and d as well as capital goods acquisitions. Manpower costs take away way more

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 05 Jun 2020 13:00

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, I just checked. Gone Again :(

When you see this, please check again. Weird! :?:


I think the idea is to be in control how much info he wants to let the mango people know !!... and not much ..I guess security reasons ? The ISI and its cohorts have ramped up their activities on social media

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby jaysimha » 05 Jun 2020 14:31

TEJAS FOC AIRCRAFT HANDED OVER TO THE IAF
28/05/2020
New Delhi, Wednesday, 27 May, 2020
( from IAF website for records)

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/tejas-foc-aircraft-handed-over-iaf

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Brad Goodman » 06 Jun 2020 07:08

I wish they station LCA on Andaman Islands and it keeps doing regular sorties across Malacca all the way upto cocos. We will see Chinese tremble :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Jun 2020 07:20

Indranil ji:

Any news on installing SPJ on Mk1 IOC & FOC?

I wouldn’t want to send them in battle without it

Thx in advance

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby skumar » 06 Jun 2020 07:49

Roop wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:TMK (with its unmatched ISR and technical capabilities) and Israel (the only country in the world with actual successful experience in this kind of mission) would go about the job of actual location and destruction of the "jewels". Actually, rather than the jewels themselves, what should be first on the target list is the Paki delivery systems (F16s and various flavours of missiles).


Israel defeated 6 Arab nations who were high, not professionals.

We have to depend on our own strengths and our enemies weaknesses.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 06 Jun 2020 11:10

Kakkaji wrote:Indranil ji:

Any news on installing SPJ on Mk1 IOC & FOC?

I wouldn’t want to send them in battle without it

Thx in advance

MoD said there are no plans of SPJ on Mk1. Not sure if that has changed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 06 Jun 2020 11:18

^^^
LCA Mk1A is basically a Mk1 with additional integrations. So at some point, look for Mk1 to be upgraded as well and brought up similar to Mk1A standard. Software can be upgraded, weapon qualifications can be ported over, innards can be rearranged and so on.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 06 Jun 2020 11:40

Specifically, the statement was as follows:
The Ministry replied that Integration of SPJ pod as a role equipment would essentially mean reduced weapon carrying capability, due to the SPJ pod occupying one store location. Internal EW system demanded more real estate and therefore was not feasible in Tejas Mk1 class of aircraft. Therefore, integration of EW system on light aircrafts of Tejas class would have an adverse impact on other aspect of the aircraft performance and capability.


Whereas IAF said:
... the current radar is an Elta radar but our own radar is also being developed.
....
As far as the jammer is concerned, first the radar has to be developed and then the jammer can be integrated with the radar. There are many jammers-radar available. Towed jammers and Towed Decoy jammers are available. They can be carried on the wing stores and that does not inhibit the aircraft’s performance in any way. Once we are getting a jammer with Rafale type, we could always see how it performs.


Both are sourced from PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE (2018-19) report available online.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby csaurabh » 07 Jun 2020 12:12

Manufacturing of aircrafts and launch vehicles is a complex affair involving hundreds upon hundreds of sophisticated machines for fabrication, assembly, inspection and accessories. Autoclave is just a part of the puzzle. Maybe a big part of the puzzle.

I have visited several facilities in ISRO and HAL and seen the machinery installed there. I would estimate not more than 30% of them are indigenous and the rest are imported from USA,Germany,Japan and even Russia. This is why aerospace production is hard to scale, since doing so would require substantial capex investment and support from foreign companies/countries.
One of the most impressive indigenously built machines I witnessed is a massive rotary vacuum brazing machine. This is used to braze the cooling channels around the combustion chamber of a liquid fuelled rocket engine. Essentially it is one of the things that makes cryogenic rocket possible. But for every one of such ( autoclave may be an example ), there are like 5 others which are imported.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 07 Jun 2020 13:03

^^^ I imagine even the US and Russia have tooling from many different countries. No one country makes everything. At least currently (might change in post chini virus world.)

It is also a matter of investment for which goal. If goal is the production of aircraft then it makes sense to buy the necessary tooling off the shelf and concentrate human and financial resources on the manufacturing and assembly of aircraft parts.

If the goal is complete self-reliance then maybe you need to invest the tooling as well. That would be going into a rat hole. There will always something that we don't make even tools are made by other tools.

A better way is developing a thriving and growing manufacturing ecosystem where consistent investment in growth and replacement encourages local firms to make machines that compete for those cogs in the build chain. Again, you need consistent investment decades upon decades to build up local industry.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 07 Jun 2020 13:52

It is not economically viable to built all aerospace production machines in India. Who will buy them other than HAL?

The Chini are able to produce them given every tom dick and harry OEM gave orders to Chini companies for producing parts of these machines. Not to mention aircraft OEM setting up up shops in China for the sake to getting a pie of the Chinese airline market.

We as usual want to make sure the DPSU employees are not given a reason to strike. National interest is secondary.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 07 Jun 2020 14:36

nam wrote:It is not economically viable to built all aerospace production machines in India. Who will buy them other than HAL?

The Chini are able to produce them given every tom dick and harry OEM gave orders to Chini companies for producing parts of these machines. Not to mention aircraft OEM setting up up shops in China for the sake to getting a pie of the Chinese airline market.

We as usual want to make sure the DPSU employees are not given a reason to strike. National interest is secondary.


If there are consistent contracts for indigenous aircraft then we can expand to say Tata, Adani or Mahindra as well as HAL. Or even if no private sector aerospace company arise, a growing and expanding HAL would provide increasing orders for companies. Nothing is done overnight. It takes time. The idea is consistent investment in the manufacturing ecosystem so that companies can plan and compete for contracts that they know will be coming.

Cheen makes many tools inhouse because they are forced by Western embargo (but they still get around that through the helping hands of Germans, Israelis, Japanese and Koreans.) In general they have to make due with indigenous equivalents even inferior ones. But this gives their local industry the resources to grow and get better.

We have access to Western equipment so as opposed to
Cheen we need to make a conscious effort to go local even when the initial quality can't match the Westerners. No Indian firm can instantly match products made by Western firms with decades of headstart. I've followed chini engines and I can tell you they are now on the edge of a breakthrough because they insisted on buying and installing the horrible first marks of the WS-10 on J-11s instead of just importing or doing screwdrivergiri of AL-31s.

As for Airbus and Boeing setting up shop in Cheen. Now who else has a billion plus population and one of the top three aviation markets in the world? With the US-Chini trade war, Boeing will soon lose one of the top three markets in Cheen. India will have massive leverage to make Boeing create a production eco-system in India just as they have in Cheen.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2020 15:55

somdev wrote:F35 programme for instance has a very large supplier ecosystem. The composite skin of F35s is supplied by multiple vendors (e.g. Orbital ATK). The vendors gained from a ‘Out-of-Autoclave’ innovation which came out of the MIT labs. I believe in our case the need of the hour is increase in number of Tejas produced every year to meet the drastic shortfall. Off the shelf tooling will definitely boost our production rates. In tandem, govt labs and Universities can do the R&D on such tooling. Even missile casings are made with OoA process these days. Carbon nanotube film is the latest research for aerospace composite manufacturing at fraction of cost and time, again developed by MIT again and sponsored by Airbus, Lockheed etc.^


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&start=1680#p2436884

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby csaurabh » 07 Jun 2020 18:09

chola wrote:^^^ I imagine even the US and Russia have tooling from many different countries. No one country makes everything. At least currently (might change in post chini virus world.)

It is also a matter of investment for which goal. If goal is the production of aircraft then it makes sense to buy the necessary tooling off the shelf and concentrate human and financial resources on the manufacturing and assembly of aircraft parts.

If the goal is complete self-reliance then maybe you need to invest the tooling as well. That would be going into a rat hole. There will always something that we don't make even tools are made by other tools.

A better way is developing a thriving and growing manufacturing ecosystem where consistent investment in growth and replacement encourages local firms to make machines that compete for those cogs in the build chain. Again, you need consistent investment decades upon decades to build up local industry.


Chola ji I disagree with this goal thing. If you really look at it then the 'goal' is not producing aircrafts but defending the country. Which can be done just as well by buying Rafales or whatever from other countries. In the case of space industry, the goal ( such as obtaining satellite images or communication bandwidth ) can also be achieved by buying the same from other countries.

I think we at BR are mature enough to understand (atleast by now) that these are things of national importance and prestige, and sovereignty cannot simply be bought off the shelf anytime we like with no consequence. Why not extend the same logic to the machinery, components, raw material input, software and so on?

Like you said this is not going to happen quickly notwithstanding slogans of atmanirbharta or whatever. And we don't need complete self reliance. Lets have around 60-70% self reliance instead of the current 20-30%. Great powers like France and Russia are probably at that level. What is required is a consistent push in incentives for the development of technologies and not looking down upon our 1-2 yr efforts in comparison to some 30-40 year old Western company already in the business for decades. ( I am involved in this so I see this kind of thing happening ).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby csaurabh » 07 Jun 2020 18:12

nam wrote:It is not economically viable to built all aerospace production machines in India. Who will buy them other than HAL?


This is a little hyperbolic, most aerospace production machinery (and companies) are used for other things as well. Such as automobile, ship-building, oil and gas, energy and even medical devices. It is about the development of a manufacturing ecosystem of which aerospace is just one part.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 08 Jun 2020 00:36

Good luck & godspeed, #FlyingDaggers & #FlyingBullets!

The best aircraft is the one made in own country. But don't give an inch. Because the enemy won't.

IAF Chief - "LCA is the best in its class; take my word for it"

By KAYPIUS

https://kaypius.com/2020/06/07/iaf-chie ... rd-for-it/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 08 Jun 2020 01:17

This guy keeps trying to run down desi industry whilst pretending to say the exact opposite. As if the TPs needed him to tell them not to give an inch. No wonder with his attitude he is in the pvt sector and didnt stick around to actually helm a serious program to the max.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 08 Jun 2020 01:29

The guy is extremely prejudiced against indigenous products and promoter of imports and after reading critisism of his ALH article writes about segmented folding of main rotors being developed from his sources and on footnote writes about pending 32 nos naval ALH order for IN and CG.

His views are non serious and best ignored.

Basically he is subtly marketing imports for reasons best known to him.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 08 Jun 2020 03:26

I find him pretty okay. I find myself slightly left of center in trying to portray the side of DRDO/HAL etc. He is slightly on the other side. But that is okay. I have argued with him many times, and I find him reasonable. I will say this, he knows much more than me at least. He is qualified TP!!!!

When it comes to ALH, his experience is from old naval ALH which frankly was not up to the mark for operations at sea. ALH past Mk3 is very different from the first couple of batches. Full marks should be given to IAF And IA to hand hold the project during those difficult times. IN got the raw deal, and it has every right to rebuff ALH. Kaypius and Arun P are both strong proponents of desikaran. But Naval ALH as it was fielded a few years back was simply not acceptable. I stand with them on that. By the way, Kaypius is not critical of ALH in IA/IAF service! Who can be?!

Where Kaypius and I don't see eye to eye is the new Naval ALH. He wants to have a private sector Tier-1 competitor to HAL. He sees this new tender as an opportunity to lay the seeds of that. I disagree. I also want a Tier-1 competitor to HAL, but not at the cost of a desi bird. No country does that. I want Ka-226 talks to subside too. We have the ALH and NUH which are state of the art products wand we shouldn't share any part of the pie with others. I also want HAL and GOI to look at the autonomous helicopters seriously. Many people are trying to peddle snake oil there. We must be cautious.

The world is moving towards faster helis with longer endurance and payload. Coaxial rotors with pusher props seem to be the most efficient and robust solution. HAL and India has no design knowledge there. IA/IAF/IN should formulate the requirement, and start a competition. The private sector should be given extra incentives to offset the advantage that HAL has currently.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 08 Jun 2020 03:27

Kakkaji wrote:Indranil ji:

Any news on installing SPJ on Mk1 IOC & FOC?

I wouldn’t want to send them in battle without it

Thx in advance

Why "ji" for me?

Why would IOC/FOC fighters not be installed with SPJ whenever the tech is ready and proven on Mk1A?


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