Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 28 Jun 2020 12:11

Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 16:55

srai wrote:Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:

To travel fast, for whatever reasons. To bug out after firing weapons, quicker to deploy/transport and have higher speed even if it isn't supercruise. Also it shows that the a/c definitely would have more power that would definitely result in better WVR capability. It could pump in more power to the radar and EW too.

It's an optimisation problem and IAF selected whatever model it wanted. But remember that 1st model was based on the original spec!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jun 2020 18:15

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 20224?s=20 ----> HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end.

~via LiveFist

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2020 18:49

Another six months? Why? Effect of the pandemic?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 18:50


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 18:52

SSridhar wrote:Another six months? Why? Effect of the pandemic?

Pandemic can be for delay in deliveries running into months. Can't imagine the same for ordering!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 28 Jun 2020 19:11

  1. Production was an issue year or two back
  2. 1st FOC delivered in 12 months
  3. Yet to get clearance for 8 trainers
  4. For current order: 8-10 a/c per year
  5. Target is 16 a/c per year and 2nd line is set up
  6. Can reach 16-20 with 83 order
  7. Expected order in Aug, but due to COVID-19 Finance Min may take 2-3 months more (hopefully Dec)
  8. LCA (single engine) was not for Navy. It was to prove technologies
  9. So looking for TEDBF and ADA started work
  10. Expect 6-7 years only as it is an iteration (as happened in ALH)
  11. LCA Mk.2,TEDBF,AMCA: 3-4 years for prototype, 3-4 year to prove out
  12. AMCA: Production through a new company (special vehicle b/w HAL, DRDO and private partner)
  13. AMCA first prototype by 2026/7 (it contradicts above statement)
  14. MRCA: CAS was catagorical that 114 a/c won't be junked. RFI, RFQ and making SQR will be more difficult than that of MMRCA
  15. Desine engine: 110KN, getting into it. It will be new one based on Kaveri and a foreign OEM, lead by GRTE

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 19:50

https://twitter.com/TonboImaging/status/1261180365160370177
two issues: defaulting on payments owed to tonbo and mass cancellation of contracts


"With mass cancellations of key defence procurements, @PMO
india's call for #AatmaNirbharBharat isn't quite starting in the govt corridors. Here's our urgent plea and open letter to @narendramodi
@HMOIndia @DefenceMinIndia @SpokespersonMoD @NorthernComd_IA @makeinindia @minmsme"



Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 28 Jun 2020 21:49

This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?
Last edited by Barath on 28 Jun 2020 22:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby prasan » 28 Jun 2020 21:49



HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end. :(( :(( :((

~via LiveFist

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 3383220224

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 28 Jun 2020 21:57

srai wrote:Barath,

What’s the point of getting to the combat area if you can’t carry anything :wink:


Helps you get to the scene of the crash faster, as the old chopper joke has it. :wink:

As basanth said, it can have some utility even without external weapons (exit the area, come in to use guns, especially cas/coin, recon,..internal weapons for 5th gen ).. but that wasn't the point of the comment anyway

Supersonic is actually pretty rare and relatively short lived, with the old story about the Concorde having more time supersonic than all the world's air forces (don't recall if that statement predated sr-71 publicity). Supercruise has been around for several decades but has not always been specified over that period . Subsonic is usually best for range. The current tejas can do with longer legs..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Jun 2020 22:19

prasan wrote:
HAL chairman is expecting the order of 83 Tejas Mk1A to be placed by December end. :(( :(( :((

~via LiveFist

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 3383220224


What crap! This should have been part of the COVID-19 stimulus. An order for 200 LCA Tejas Mk1A to be delivered in 3 years. It appears Tejas is being setup to fail. Might as well give the Chinese all of Ladakh and spend money on health care and education.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 28 Jun 2020 22:59

order of 20,000 Tejas. Sorry you are not patriotic enough (I have more zeros than you)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 28 Jun 2020 23:15

Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 23:22

Barath wrote:This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?


1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rsatchi » 28 Jun 2020 23:25

abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 23:30

I sometimes feel that current government is letting the process flow its normal path to understand what is going on and who the players are. They learnt it from the rafale deal as once the initial deal was announced, there was an intense pressure and noise of corruption and scrutiny from the court. (no doubt instigated by other parties and foreign funded NGOs). They also derailed Train-18. I am hoping that current standoff with China will result in a big shift and accelerate local production - but before that can happen, the process-pipeline and needs to be cleaned up

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 28 Jun 2020 23:44

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


Honestly I don't think he is really "trying" - get the impression that this was never a focus area. CV19 was the perfect opportunity to place orders for indigenous weapons, but all we got was some more lines added to the useless policy paper (DPP).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby schinnas » 29 Jun 2020 00:01

pandyan wrote:
Barath wrote:This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?


1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern


The pattern is that due to COVID related finance squeeze, all capital acquisitions have been put on hold. Covid would set back defense procurement plans by a year atleast.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 00:20

fanne wrote:order of 20,000 Tejas. Sorry you are not patriotic enough (I have more zeros than you)


Don’t be ridiculous. How much is going to be spent on foreign arms as opposed to setting up aerospace industry, commercial electronics/avionics? Vast employment and knowledge base and skill are created. If you can’t see that, then I pity you.

An order for 200 MK1A would bring down future unit cost of Mk2 and attract foreign sales like the Gripen.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 29 Jun 2020 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 00:28

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


The current government has been in power for over 6 years now. Cleaning up acquisitions should not have taken more than 3-4 years. We’re past that time frame and repeating the same mistakes. The RM should’ve had photo ops at HAL, L&T shipyards, and ordinance factories handing over checks of billions of dollars for new weapon systems. This is not the first time RM Rajnath Singh has done this. Earlier conscreating the Rafale in France - how embarrassing when they haven’t arrived yet!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 29 Jun 2020 06:16

Since it’s so time consuming to confirm orders (even indigenous ones), larger quantities need to be negotiated and signed for. 40 units or 80 units are not sufficient. Order 10-years worth of production at one go.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 29 Jun 2020 07:07

Anyone know what ADA has been working on for the continued incremental updates/upgrades on LCA MK.1 FOC (beyond the baseline qualification)?

New weapon integration?
Aerodynamic refinements?
etc ...

Is there a roadmap?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 29 Jun 2020 07:52

schinnas wrote:
pandyan wrote:
1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern


The pattern is that due to COVID related finance squeeze, all capital acquisitions have been put on hold. Covid would set back defense procurement plans by a year atleast.


From the article:

These payments should have been cleared by March end. These are for products delivered in October

Ie the pain is due significantly to the delayed payments for past deliveries, in addition to en masse cancellation.

Payments not made ~8 months after delivery ..

On atmanirbhar, the talk is different from the walk if it allows Indian capabilities to be lost due to bankruptcy

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 29 Jun 2020 09:38

Source: HVT.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 09:56

srai wrote:Since it’s so time consuming to confirm orders (even indigenous ones), larger quantities need to be negotiated and signed for. 40 units or 80 units are not sufficient. Order 10-years worth of production at one go.


I agree.

If both the Mk1A can come in at $40 million in numbers and Mk2 at $50 million, then 200 Mk1A would be $8 billion + $2 billion for infrastructure development. Then 400 Mk2 would be $20 billion. For $30 billion by 2030 is not unreasonable. It will be a huge boost to not just capability, but a vast industrial base which will attract the best and brightest in the country.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Jun 2020 10:18

India is the only country where a large number of people in General Public, MOD, Babu dom, media with access to foreign gravy train and interested Politicans all except production without orders, why would HAL and a million suppliers set up production, hire talent etc, invest CAPEX etc. without a more or less guaranteed return.

We expect other people to be charitable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby TushS » 29 Jun 2020 12:25

Image

Beautiful image. I see no cockpit visibility problem in Tejas.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Armuan » 29 Jun 2020 21:13

Mort Walker wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


The current government has been in power for over 6 years now. Cleaning up acquisitions should not have taken more than 3-4 years. We’re past that time frame and repeating the same mistakes. The RM should’ve had photo ops at HAL, L&T shipyards, and ordinance factories handing over checks of billions of dollars for new weapon systems. This is not the first time RM Rajnath Singh has done this. Earlier conscreating the Rafale in France - how embarrassing when they haven’t arrived yet!


+1
After Parikar-ji, I don't see anyone championing the cause for indegenization. Now that the border issue has flared with a real possibility of war, let's see how we respond towards encouraging domestic cos without short changing them (despicable).

There is Samtel and may be a few others who have done well. How were they able to do this? Is there a decent unified mechanism that enables this, or is it different for the three services?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jun 2020 21:24

You can drag and drop the picture below for a large size to read the text....

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 50338?s=20 ----> More than 15 private companies are already manufacturing and involved in the various LRUs of Tejas MK1. This number is going to increase further in Mk1A. I hope that the government gets its orders done, production rate shouldn't be an issue here.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2020 00:31

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:

Under his watch we have spent 4 years negotiating a contract for the LCH (still not signed btw). Tejas Mk1A orders still six months out. We are going in reverse on the small arms front (INSAS to be replaced by foreign rifles screwdrivered in India). We inducted very small numbers of a totally new and expensive aircraft type with no follow up. Aerial refueler shortage is not even being spoken of. No sign of more AWACS. No sign of more Astra orders. Local suppliers having problems with unpaid dues and order cancellations. We have more than enough reasons to be pessimistic. The only truly good era during his term was when we had a capable Defense minister in Parrikar ji which ended too soon.

And despite all this his government has been better than nearly all previous ones on the defence front. Shows just how low a bar every successive Indian govt. has placed over the last 70+ years.

Anyway I'll stop before I have to ban myself for politicizing the thread. Sometimes it is hard to stop the angst from flowing out. :oops:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 30 Jun 2020 01:14

Modi's government did a lot to address shortage problems, but if remove Parrikar, there isn't much to show except purchases made perhaps for 'other' reasons, many times perhaps to keep other countries happy (or so it looks that way). This is when the economy was in great shape compared to what was available for other PMs. UPA was terrible. But earlier Vajpayee's NDA was good too. Even better was PV's reign during the toughest time when India was fighting bankruptcy. On so many fronts related to security, the government did a great job. While NaMo's time saw even Nepal slipping out to China, PV's time had Israel back to India's allies that too with the support of Yassar Arafat! Money was never short for the atomic device development and he almost exploded the device. Initial payments for Sukhois were made by him just before elections, remember that Bofors blew Congress government in 80s! His handling of Punjab and J&K was remarkable and unprecedented and he kept the defense ministry to himself for most part.

Before anyone could say OT, let me quote his expectation for LCA itself -- "While the first flight of TD1 was supposed to take place in the second half of 1996, The second Technology Demonstrator (TD2) was scheduled to follow nine months later in January 1997. Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao in his speech in roll out ceremony had said that warplane would be inducted into the air force by the year 2003 two years before the scheduled date of 2005. Many in the audience were seen rolling their eyes hearing PM’s statement of early inductions of airplane then scheduled. "

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Theeran » 30 Jun 2020 01:30

Deleted. Pointless post.
Last edited by Theeran on 30 Jun 2020 05:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2020 02:39

Rakesh wrote:You can drag and drop the picture below for a large size to read the text....

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 50338?s=20 ----> More than 15 private companies are already manufacturing and involved in the various LRUs of Tejas MK1. This number is going to increase further in Mk1A. I hope that the government gets its orders done, production rate shouldn't be an issue here.

Image


Can some one compile the list of the 134 LRUs from the 49 foreign suppliers please?

Please add risk column and space for comments.
Risk could be political, business what not.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jun 2020 08:14

All this empty talk without orders and priority in payments, the whole system from MOD babus , Politicans and entire commission system bears responsibility.

In many ways our country has not changed from 1962 and the Chinese have assessed this.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 08:28

i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby bharathp » 30 Jun 2020 08:54

vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?

could be the cost to
1)buy a Veto vote
2) continue to supply for su 30 mki
3) akula class submarine and
4) MTCR club access

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 30 Jun 2020 09:39

This also shows why 50% of LCA spend is in FX going to foreign entities. Just like Arjun, majority of the sub systems are foreign, however design is ours. In many ways it is not the worst thing, we are putting the best sub systems where required, but also many of the sub systems have nothing better than we cannot make it (or have not tried). Some of these systems by themselves add nothing, e.g. -actuators - It does not make LCA any better or worse, a similar performing actuator can do just fine, only we do not make it.
Things like, engine, radar, EW etc. are the one that perhaps you want the best, if you had money and someone is willing to sell.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 09:41

vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 10:55

arvin wrote:
vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Please do not change the narrative on the LCA....


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