Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

basant · Post by **basant** » 12 Jul 2020 14:08

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Nice pictures. What’s the munition under the outer pylons?

2xR-77 (and GSh-23 cannon under fuselage).

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 12 Jul 2020 15:45

basant wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
Nice pictures. What’s the munition under the outer pylons?
2xR-77 (and GSh-23 cannon under fuselage).

there you go folks. Told you an eagle eyed one poster could pick up Gasha from a distance.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Jul 2020 16:02

All along on BRF, the outer wing pylons were rated for CCM, and when has R-77 been integrated with Tejas? Was it meant to be R-73

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Jul 2020 16:54

In both pics, there seem to be canards near the nose. Looks like they both are R-73s. What am I missing ?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 12 Jul 2020 17:03

R-73 makes sense. Many thanks.

basant · Post by **basant** » 12 Jul 2020 19:39

srin wrote:In both pics, there seem to be canards near the nose. Looks like they both are R-73s. What am I missing ?

It was a typo that'll nevertheless embarrass me for a long time.

titash · Post by **titash** » 13 Jul 2020 02:10

srin wrote:In both pics, there seem to be canards near the nose. Looks like they both are R-73s. What am I missing ?

I think the leading edge flap/slats are extended appearing as a separate control surface in the ventral photograph.

Those are R-73 and GSh-23 cannon. The golden color appears to be from the Lightening pylon with no pod attached.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 13 Jul 2020 11:04

Till now we have only seen the SU-30MKI and the Mirage-2000 land on highways. Both these aircraft are big & expensive and produced in limited quantities in our country (it'll be a big loss if any of them suffer bird hits/FOD damage during highway landing) and both have long range with/without air refueling. So why bother deploying them from highways?? It makes better sense to have the LCA deployable from highways, because it has the opposite qualities of the aforementioned two aircraft. Some of the new roads being built in the Ladakh and northeast should definitely have small stretches for operating the LCA. It also makes sense to harden some over bridges on these routes -- so that they can double up as hardened air shelters. During a conflict when runways have been bombed out, an LCA taking off from a highway with it's special 'Zoom climb mode', can quickly turn tables IMHO.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 13 Jul 2020 18:07

M_Joshi wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Maverick_bha ... 2813731840

From the position of the pod, is it reasonable to conclude that this a/c executed a counter-clockwise sortie starting from Leh, heading south-westerly towards Demchok, then along the LAC till Karakoram pass, then back to Leh?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 15 Jul 2020 21:39

If 2 months of Lockdown at the Tejas production facility were not enough to derail the schedule of the production of the FOC configured Tejas Mk1, poor mngement of the Tejas supply chain hs come as an additional headache for HAL wch is in charge of the production of the Tejas Mk1
+
is now also facing issues with the first two FOC configured aircraft which already has been assembled. The IAF is facing some Quality issues and but majorly teething issues with the new FOC configured Tejas Mk1 which are equipped with new equipment due to which delivery
+
of further aircraft has been put on hold till these technical issues are resolved along with supply chain issues which due to pandemic has affected the supply chain mostly coming from the MSME sector which is severely affected due to shortage of manpower. HAL claims
+
it has enough components to assemble 5 more Tejas Mk1, it will still require to identify and see alternatives to a few of the supply vendors if they are not able to resume supply of components soon. some imported parts and equipment which were stuck due to International
+
lockdown will resume soon as International partners have resumed work. the teething issues were expected as the aircraft are new and are way different when it comes to onboard equipment than the 16 IOC configured Tejas Mk1 which were manufactured earlier and HAL is confident
+
it will be resolved to the satisfaction of the end-user (IAF) soon but time lost will not be recovered in the process which will make it very difficult for HAL to deliver 8 Tejas Mk1 for FY 2020-21 as per original delivery schedule.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 65344?s=19

basant · Post by **basant** » 15 Jul 2020 21:55

^^^
Finally, some updates on FOCs! Thank you.

See this pic from Twitter

I think it is SP18 that has finally flown. Probably the first pic?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2020 22:25

basant wrote:^^^
Finally, some updates on FOCs! Thank you.

See this pic from Twitter

I think it is SP18 that has finally flown. Probably the first pic?

More likely to be LSP-8, KH-2018.

basant · Post by **basant** » 15 Jul 2020 22:37

^^^
LSP-8 flew with gun?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jul 2020 00:19

ashishvikas wrote:If 2 months of Lockdown at the Tejas production facility were not enough to derail the schedule of the production of the FOC configured Tejas Mk1, poor mngement of the Tejas supply chain hs come as an additional headache for HAL wch is in charge of the production of the Tejas Mk1
+
is now also facing issues with the first two FOC configured aircraft which already has been assembled. The IAF is facing some Quality issues and but majorly teething issues with the new FOC configured Tejas Mk1 which are equipped with new equipment due to which delivery
+
of further aircraft has been put on hold till these technical issues are resolved along with supply chain issues which due to pandemic has affected the supply chain mostly coming from the MSME sector which is severely affected due to shortage of manpower. HAL claims
+
it has enough components to assemble 5 more Tejas Mk1, it will still require to identify and see alternatives to a few of the supply vendors if they are not able to resume supply of components soon. some imported parts and equipment which were stuck due to International
+
lockdown will resume soon as International partners have resumed work. the teething issues were expected as the aircraft are new and are way different when it comes to onboard equipment than the 16 IOC configured Tejas Mk1 which were manufactured earlier and HAL is confident
+
it will be resolved to the satisfaction of the end-user (IAF) soon but time lost will not be recovered in the process which will make it very difficult for HAL to deliver 8 Tejas Mk1 for FY 2020-21 as per original delivery schedule.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 65344?s=19

Where is the source for this? Please post sourced information only.

basant · Post by **basant** » 16 Jul 2020 00:47

^^^
https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 4980665344

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jul 2020 02:40

Question is what is his source? A twitter opinion thread is different from one claiming inside knowledge.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 16 Jul 2020 02:42

This handle is the proxy for idrw IIRC, how i remember is they copied "vymaniki" handle

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2020 05:30

KaranM, Should ask him no? The member posted the source from Twitter.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 16 Jul 2020 06:13

ashishvikas wrote: it will be resolved to the satisfaction of the end-user (IAF) soon but time lost will not be recovered in the process which will make it very difficult for HAL to deliver 8 Tejas Mk1 for FY 2020-21 as per original delivery schedule.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 65344?s=19

Pure Bakwaas. What is the source for this huzoor? This looks like a pure lifafa piece.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 16 Jul 2020 14:27

Jay/KaranM/ramana/Suryag - I Acknowledge, wouldn't post anything from twitter handler Aerodynamic111.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jul 2020 17:03

FYI, all 83 of MK1A are for the IAF Sq service. Not for TACDE or any other purpose.

18 per Sq and 15% as reserves.

It seems 18 per Sq is the norm now for IAF and if you consider varying % of reserves depending on situation, aircraft type, types of reserves (war attrition, write off etc) and so on, numbers like 83, 36, 126, 114, 63 etc can be explained.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jul 2020 17:09

suryag wrote:This handle is the proxy for idrw IIRC, how i remember is they copied "vymaniki" handle

That person copy pastes stuff from IDRW verbatim, as a revenge for IDRW's alleged copying his article long time back (his words). If you Google this text, it probably will lead to an IDRW article (which itself might have been lifted from elsewhere). All such tweets should be taken with a pinch of salt.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 16 Jul 2020 17:40

Jay wrote:
ashishvikas wrote: it will be resolved to the satisfaction of the end-user (IAF) soon but time lost will not be recovered in the process which will make it very difficult for HAL to deliver 8 Tejas Mk1 for FY 2020-21 as per original delivery schedule.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 65344?s=19
Pure Bakwaas. What is the source for this huzoor? This looks like a pure lifafa piece.

100% lifted from IDRW:
http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-production-sl ... ng-issues/

Anyway it would not surprise me if this was true. We haven’t seen SP-17/18 handed over even though they flew months back.

There were similar issues for the first IOC jets from Line 2 if we can think back so it’s to be expected and this should also highlight the problem with creating so many different tranches with low numbers in each tranche. They stabilised IOC then after just 16 had to switch to FOC and then they’ll have to switch to MK1A after a further 16. All other OEMs plan tranches in the 100s of airframes.

HAL will take care of any issues, their internal QC picked this up and not the customer so the system worked as it is meant to. They are halting hand overs not production so they can keep up production. Thanks to COVID production targets will slip, if they can get 10 out this FY it will be a hugely successful year. 2 already made so 8 more in 8 months should be doable.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Jul 2020 20:49

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ember.html
Ready In All Respects, $5.2 Billion Order For 83 LCAs By December

A long awaited $5.2 billion contract for 83 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk.1A jets is ready in all respects and is likely to be awarded to HAL in or before December this year. Livefist can confirm that completed paperwork is now awaiting a final clearance from India’s Finance Ministry before contract signature with manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Clearance to manufacture 18 LCA Mk.1 FOC trainer aircraft to expand numbers and keep the production line warm before the Mk.1A comes online is also under final review before expected clearance. The 83 Mk.1A jets will be higher performance jets both in terms of performance, weapons and avionics capability as well as crucial maintainability. Livefist had this detailed report on what goes into the LCA Mk.1A, the jet regarded by the IAF as the ‘true’ Tejas.

1. Contract negotiated. Final financial clearance awaited.
2. Tejas Mk.1A ~62 million a pop.
3. 18 LCA trainer order under review to keep the production line warm for Mk.1A.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 16 Jul 2020 21:23

pankajs wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ember.html
Ready In All Respects, $5.2 Billion Order For 83 LCAs By December
A long awaited $5.2 billion contract for 83 indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mk.1A jets is ready in all respects and is likely to be awarded to HAL in or before December this year. Livefist can confirm that completed paperwork is now awaiting a final clearance from India’s Finance Ministry before contract signature with manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Clearance to manufacture 18 LCA Mk.1 FOC trainer aircraft to expand numbers and keep the production line warm before the Mk.1A comes online is also under final review before expected clearance. The 83 Mk.1A jets will be higher performance jets both in terms of performance, weapons and avionics capability as well as crucial maintainability. Livefist had this detailed report on what goes into the LCA Mk.1A, the jet regarded by the IAF as the ‘true’ Tejas.
1. Contract negotiated. Final financial clearance awaited.
2. Tejas Mk.1A ~62 million a pop.
3. 18 LCA trainer order under review to keep the production line warm for Mk.1A.

4 years to fix a price between departments in the same government!

Anyway let’s hope this deadline is adhered to, this means there’s a strong chance the first MK1A will be coming in 2023

If they ordered additional trainers this would be great news and would address the production gap IAF has now ensured by their delays in ordering but for this very reason I have less than 10% hope that is becomes a reality. This is far too logical and getting commitments out of the indian services for indian equipment is harder than getting blood out of a stone but would be happy to be proven wrong.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jul 2020 21:26

I have said this before - the clearance merely indicates there is no money. Lets give a rest to all the claims of incompetence, this, that. The IAF wants proven platforms asap so they have prioritized the Rafale and S-400 (both in service w/their respective countries) and additional MiG-29s, Su-30s but the Tejas will arrive as soon as some room appears in the Capex.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 Jul 2020 22:11

December is too close to March. And we'll be looking at the economy after 2/3rds of the COVID-damaged financial year. There is a very real chance of actual signing getting pushed into the next financial year.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 16 Jul 2020 23:17

Tejas 16 mk1 IOC+ 16 mk1 FOC + 18 mk1 FOC trainers+ 83 mk1a = 133 nos will form 7 operational squadrons. @19 fighter/ sq. All 83 mk1a should be single seater.
2023-24 to 2026-27 mk1a over 4 years @ 20/year.

basant · Post by **basant** » 16 Jul 2020 23:43

Does 18 trainers mean that eventually we are going to see 9 squadrons? I hope so!!

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 16 Jul 2020 23:49

7 sq tallies with IAF initial requirement of max 7 Tejas mk 1 sq. 14 trainers + 4 attrition reserve.
Each sq will have 16 to 17 single seater + 2 to 3 trainers for total of 19 fighters.
83 mk1a will form 5 sq with 16 single seater each + 2 mk1 FOC trainers.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 17 Jul 2020 00:02

sankum wrote:Tejas 16 mk1 IOC+ 16 mk1 FOC + 18 mk1 FOC trainers+ 83 mk1a = 133 nos will form 7 operational squadrons. @19 fighter/ sq. All 83 mk1a should be single seater.
2023-24 to 2026-27 mk1a over 4 years @ 20/year.

I think 83 Mk1A is actually 73 Mk1A + 10 FOC Trainers...
In the original 40 Mk1 orders, there are originally 4 IOC and 4 FOC Trainers and all of them will now be FOC... So, 8 FOC Trainers here...

What we have is 16 IOC + 16 FOC + 73 Mk1A + 18 FOC Trainers...
That will be 6 squadrons (16 Single seaters + 3 Trainers per squadron) with 9 extra single seaters...

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 17 Jul 2020 00:31

noob pooch:

What will be the status of the MK1/1A lines post delivery of the 123+ aircraft? Specifically, is there a plan to introduce SPORT by 2027, or secure foreign orders (too optimistic) by then to keep the line going o?. IMO, it would be a gross under-utilization of resources, seeing how LM et al are trying to keep the Falcon lines active.

noob pooch 2:

Will Tejas MK1 airframes be suitable for a loyal wingman type a/c, or would it be unwise given the powerplant is going to be foreign for the foreseeable future, or other reasons?

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 17 Jul 2020 00:35

But where is Mk1A? No working aircraft yet? What is rationale for any contract if there is no flying aircraft?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 17 Jul 2020 00:38

LakshmanPST wrote:
sankum wrote:Tejas 16 mk1 IOC+ 16 mk1 FOC + 18 mk1 FOC trainers+ 83 mk1a = 133 nos will form 7 operational squadrons. @19 fighter/ sq. All 83 mk1a should be single seater.
2023-24 to 2026-27 mk1a over 4 years @ 20/year.
I think 83 Mk1A is actually 73 Mk1A + 10 FOC Trainers...
In the original 40 Mk1 orders, there are originally 4 IOC and 4 FOC Trainers and all of them will now be FOC... So, 8 FOC Trainers here...

What we have is 16 IOC + 16 FOC + 73 Mk1A + 18 FOC Trainers...
That will be 6 squadrons (16 Single seaters + 3 Trainers per squadron) with 9 extra single seaters...

Let clarity emerge.

Livefist article states that 8 Trainer FOC order is expanded to 18 so that manufacturing line is not idle + 83 mk1a.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2020 00:55

V_Raman wrote:But where is Mk1A? No working aircraft yet? What is rationale for any contract if there is no flying aircraft?

First flight of Mk1A is due by next year or the latest by 2022.

First deliveries of Mk1A will happen only in 2023, assuming a contract is signed in Dec 2020. It takes three years for delivery and that is the industry standard.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jul 2020 01:36

Frankly I don't understand why HAL needs to wait for MoD to sign the order and delay the delivery.

They could easily get a loan from a PSU, under written by MoD, pay off suppliers to start making the LRU. When the MoD order comes, pay back the money to the bank.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2020 02:25

https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/12 ... 27712?s=20 ---->

Tejas LCA MK.1A cockpit. Okay, so:

• 1 x Litening Pod
• 1 x GSh-23 (possibly)
• 2 x Paveway 2
• 2 x Astra
• 1 x EW pod (Elisra's EW Pod under-development)
• 2 x CCMs on dual-rack pylon though not ASRAAMs, seems R-73Es
(Rakesh's note: CCMs on dual rack pylon are on right)

Follow up tweet to the tweet above....

https://twitter.com/MI6GB/status/128381 ... 91969?s=20 --->

In this config:-
1) Litening 3 Pod: 208 kg
2) 2x GBU-12 Paveway 2: 460 kg
3) 2xAstra: 308 kg
4) 2xR73E: 210 kg
5) Elisra EW pod: ~200 kg
6) GSH-23: 50 kg

Nearly 1.5 tons of weapons/targeting/EW payload.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Jul 2020 02:29

nam wrote:Frankly I don't understand why HAL needs to wait for MoD to sign the order and delay the delivery.

They could easily get a loan from a PSU, under written by MoD, pay off suppliers to start making the LRU. When the MoD order comes, pay back the money to the bank.

If only people were that sane. It takes years for cost negotiations between two government departments

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... opter.html

With crucial — and sticky — price negotiations complete

A pooch out of genuine curiosity. Let us assume HAL overcharges IAF. Where exactly does the "extra" money go? Dividend back to the government? Then why this chai-biskoot on whether HAL profit margin should be 5% or 10%?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jul 2020 02:35

nam wrote:Frankly I don't understand why HAL needs to wait for MoD to sign the order and delay the delivery.

They could easily get a loan from a PSU, under written by MoD, pay off suppliers to start making the LRU. When the MoD order comes, pay back the money to the bank.

They need direction from the MoDP. Hope this happens as part of Atmanirbhar Bharat.
The suppliers can get a head start before the MoD contract is signed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2020 02:46

Rakesh wrote:Follow up tweet to the tweet above....

https://twitter.com/MI6GB/status/128381 ... 91969?s=20 --->

Some dude in the twitter thread (link below) is stating the above configuration does not account for fuel.

Gurus, please confirm.

https://twitter.com/DFI_Sancho/status/1 ... 67170?s=20