Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 05 Sep 2019 18:23

3-4 Months in Indian babudom speak means 12 months and above (depending on the supply and availability of free chai, biskoot and samosa).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 20:28

ArjunPandit wrote:may be this is a very naaive question..but why do we need to even haggle for the price...all said and done money remains with GOI..assuming that the suppliers are not over charging HAL..


So we can delay acquisition and demand imports.

The aircraft procurement wing of MoD needs to be keelhauled. Not just overhauled.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 20:32

ArjunPandit wrote:may be this is a very naaive question..but why do we need to even haggle for the price...all said and done money remains with GOI..assuming that the suppliers are not over charging HAL..


The money is considered as having been deducted from the IAF's Capex budget. The IAF will obviously fight tooth and nail to reduce any single procurements impact, because they are not given any money "back" because the indigenous program is over-priced.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 20:34

srin wrote:
ramana wrote:
......


That's not the worst part. This is:
One source claimed: “The Gripen, which has features similar to LCA, was costing less than Rs 300 crore per plane and that HAL must become competitive and be able to offer similar price".


“Why would anybody pay Rs 450 crore for Tejas if they can buy Gripens for cheaper,” the source argued, ...


If the only justification for Tejas is cost and not our strategic autonomy, I'm really disappointed. I hope that this so-called "source" is really some strategic think tank idiot, and not someone in the MoD or the forces.


I think that source will benefit in the end.

The counter to him is the 450 crores stays in India.
Moron.
There is a group in the IAF that likes the Gripen for its MFD display!!!

And they have the power to co-design the layout for the Mk1A and the MWF but no they like to buy Gripen for the display.

Sadly we need a bunch of them to retire and become op-ed writers.

KaranM the money for the Tejas will be adjusted.
So lets not put up strawman arguments.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 20:38

Ramana, the Indian system does not do these adjustments. They are obsessed with the DPP and sadly, the Modi led GOI has been quite tightfisted with services over welfaronomics. All the money is going for this welfare program, that one and now there is an economic slowdown. The AFs needs vs its committed budget has a significant disparity. One can point out that these needs existed due to highway loot during UPA era, but current situation is also what it is. And hence the look towards cost effective buys. There is very little chance of the MMRCA being ordered quick either.

Even those emergency buys are coming out of the budget, not as separate as was done in years past. Like it or not, there is definitely an element of desperation in capex juggling by the forces. Its not as if GOI is saying buy the Tejas and we will adjust the money back elsewhere. It doesn't work like that.

The MK1A has sensor fusion and a lot of fancy capabilities with the display. SPORT takes that and adds a wide angle display. Fingers crossed if they can pull it off.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 21:15

Hindu link on Tejas pricing and DPP reform

83 Tejas LCA pricing issue resolved: Defence Ministry official
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 340242.ece

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 05 Sep 2019 21:28

Why is LCA costing high. I would assume two most important reasons - 1) Recover invested amount by HAL etc 2) Separate (and duplicate, bur for the right reason) manufacturing/assembly line at the private player (they are baking that cost in the 83 LCA)

For 1, didn't GOI/IAF pay HAL in the past. Even if the amount is from HAL own fund (they were putting some 1500 cr for the new assembly line), GOI should right that check back to them or take 1500 less in dividend payment (or pay 1500 and take 1500 extra in div payment). If private players are changing extra, see if cost can be made lower with promise of future order of LCA follow up (govt can assure them contract). Easier way, pay through tax credits, all of these can be credited back (maybe govt can give credit for new defense manufacturing (not assembly from parts source from foreign player). It could as well be that foreign players are trying to make money by jacking price, like Jags engines.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2103
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 05 Sep 2019 22:16

the source needs to be declared a traitor and denounced/shamed publicly. Why does he use anonymity? Why would anyone buy the GRIPEN (any version) when the Tejas is here?

Like Ramana stated - the money stays - here, builds an industry, boosts economy, builds local skills, allows future development.

Most of all the "source" needs a lesson on economy. If the multiplier is say 7, then

a) buying the Gripen at 300 crores - boosts the Swedish economy and allows them to control Indian usage of the plane during war
b) buying the LCA at 450 crores - boost the Indian economy and allows India to mate the aircraft with western, eastern, Mongolian, .....any weapon system under the sun at no additional cost. Also allows serial development allowing easier inventory control and availability for higher fleet availability in times of war.

MOD needs to send IAF top brass for a lesson in economics - make sure to take the "source" along.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:19

ramana wrote:Hindu link on Tejas pricing and DPP reform

83 Tejas LCA pricing issue resolved: Defence Ministry official
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 340242.ece

Precisely the point. How many days since the Tejas 83 order was first mooted? And yet, here we are. And the MOD is still stating it will be done soon. The Akash orders, placed now, after ~2 years of delay. The DPP, being rewritten still. Arudhra/Ashwini type systems yet to be ordered despite clearing trials.. the system is so broken, its not even funny anymore. Only + is that at least its moving, MII is a priority (hence Tejas, Akash etc) and the emergency procurement system is allowing for WWR build up.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:25

"The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given the initial clearance for the 83 LCA-Mk1A aircraft in November 2016 and the IAF issued the Request For Proposal (RFP) in December 2017. However, negotiations have been stuck due to the steep price quoted by the HAL which, the IAF had said, was more than the price of a Su-30MKI."


3 years, for the MOD to order domestic aircraft from a domestic manufacturer, and zero accountability from anyone in the system in terms of speeding up the order. If I am a private vendor who has to supply to the program, can anyone imagine how irritating the delay, and the limited order set is? The Modi Govt, which magically finds money for this farmer, that sop right around election time, but cannot "increase" the IAFs Capex OR negotiate with the IAF to pick up a few more LCA squadrons, irrespective of the Mk1A's 60% LRU count benefiting domestic industry. And yet, we have $Bn's for imports.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 22:36

Sorry private players cant work on future promises. Ther airframes are not changing so give the order so they can plan their manufacturing.
Sitting in Delhi and thinking you can get it like a calatolg order is the problem.

If the price for the planes is settled why are the MoD fooling around with the support price?
That is a Operational and Maintenance (O&M) program and should be decoupled from the weapon system contract.
Here I blame the procurement folks.

"Pricing of LCA, which was under discussion with the costing committee, was finalised two days back in a meeting by the secretary of Defence Production. Now discussion for the pricing of support package is on. That also should be finalised in a month or two. So we should be in a position to sign the contract for the aircraft in the next 3-4 months," Chandra said.


Now Tejas is a new plane. How will the support demand have fidelity in this stage.
Support package of Su-30MKI and Rafale is feasible as they are mature planes and have seen qty production and seen service.

The mfg knows what level of spares is needed and can quote a price for that.

Do we have same insight into Tejas wear and tear?
Especially Mk1A?
Its better to have the production contraact signed and the support contract on three year basis to develop fidelity.

I suspect the MoD had people who want to delay this contract as long as possible.
They are using the DPP to delay and not expedite the program.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2103
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 05 Sep 2019 22:43

The Mk1A order is being held hostage to the Rafale order it seems. Once the additional Rafales are ordered, the order for MK1As will also be released. Seems like some personnel are acting as enemies of the state.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 22:44

KaranM,
I think if you increase IAF capex it will go to buy Gripen.


Parrikar understood this very well.

Folks like Ravi Rikhye bemoan the defence budget as % of GDP is not at 2.5%.

All that will do is pipeline imports.*

I will assure you if IAF wants to buy Indian, NaMo will find the money.

The billions for imports are because IAF had no Plan B.

One day the full story of the Rafale contract negotiated by UPA will come out.


*
What have forces done with the Rs 300 crores discretionary funds?
Except Navy both have rushed to buy from abroad.

Did Army allocate 50 crores for Kevlar helmets or BPJs or more Dhanush?
Did IAF push for Astra to be speed-ed up?
Mind you this was after Nowshera stand off.
Did they ask for Helina to equip the armed helicopters?

Big NO.

Will IAF order Su-30MKI as price is cheaper than HAL's Tejas Mk1A?
No they want Gripen because it has good display.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:47

Fair enough. I hadn't though of it as you did. But if that is indeed the case, then domestic orders need to be pushed for completion fast. Even those are delayed. Just look at this 3 year (!) round robin over Tejas Mk1A and the Akash. Bizarre.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7526
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 05 Sep 2019 23:07

Which Gripen? What 300 crores? The source needs to educate himself. It is not that difficult to Google!

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7310
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 05 Sep 2019 23:55

ramana wrote:Sorry private players cant work on future promises. Ther airframes are not changing so give the order so they can plan their manufacturing.
Sitting in Delhi and thinking you can get it like a calatolg order is the problem.

If the price for the planes is settled why are the MoD fooling around with the support price?
That is a Operational and Maintenance (O&M) program and should be decoupled from the weapon system contract.
Here I blame the procurement folks as they

I suspect the MoD had people who want to delay this contract as long as possible.
They are using the DPP to delay and not expedite the program.

Ramana,
unfortunately toppest of babus think private industry needs to be patient and not expect orders and payment like buying a 120 pages notebook in a stationary shop. Long and short of it. We can rage and rage (and I heard it live, so..) but unless it comes from above, it cannot and will not change sir.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2019 00:13

You paint a contrary picture.
In your picture its the babus who delay payments.
In others pictures its the IAF that worries about price which keeps going up due to delays in contract funding.
And both will point to the DPP which by their own admission was written in 2016!
and is slated for revisions.

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 292
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ManuJ » 06 Sep 2019 00:23

If GOI is serious about promoting domestic military industry, why can't it offer the services a subsidy for buying swadesi?
All products designed and made in India 30% off :)
This will satisfy the services' concerns on capex and will give them more bang for the buck.
It won't have much of a financial impact on GOI since the money stays in the country and returns to its coffers one way or the other.
Is GOI obliged to offer foreign firms a level-playing field when even Indian private industry doesn't get it?

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 06 Sep 2019 00:39

The reason why establishment (or the BJP to be more precise) is not pushing hard and fast for LCA could be that they have to override DPP, and may be wary that down the line, when congress pasand party comes to power, they will open that case and with a compliant Judiciary put them in jail. Else nothing is stopping it from a committed person from pushing it through. This is not even rocket science at this point in time. We are 12 sq short of 42 (29% down), will be another 8 down soon (6 mig 21 bis and 2 Mig 27) another 15%, we will be 45% down in strength from authorized strength in 5 years (this authorized itself is outdated and should be revised up, but a matter for another day). Even the best generous buying of foreign aircraft (114 -150 MMCRA or Rafale or SU30MKI or some combination) will only at best fill half of the need. We are left with some 10-12 sq (200 to 240) planes short that can only be filled by LCA mk 1/a/2/MWF etc. Just get on with it.
Mig 21 was pushed down IAF throat by the politicians (they had preferred 'other' western aircrafts, all of them since retired). SU30MKI was also a similar choice (pushed down by politician on a reluctant IAF). Both turned out to be great buys (though HAL blew a major chance by not agreeing to go all the way on ToT, maybe Russians reneged on their agreement). I think, Modi should take a polictical decision and order (not ask) IAF to take some 120-200 LCA and order HAL to charge only so much (the extra money they are asking, they can just .....). This is the only way left out now.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4192
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 06 Sep 2019 01:25

Support contract is mandatory if we don’t want to see hanger queens. We have heard it often enough complaints from end users about domestic products “low” serviceability rates. The broken system doesn’t allow for timely procurement of spares. End users don’t necessarily budget adequately for support. It doesn’t factor in lead-times required for manufacturer. Not to forget the red-tape in placing orders.

At the end of the day, with the support package included, each LCA Mk1A will inch closer to the original quoted price of Rs450 crore. Multi-year PBL with guarantees of 75% serviceability rates ain’t cheap. R&D costs associated with “ISC” (i.e. end user customization) ain’t cheap either. Scaling up of the entire LCA production and support ecosystem ain’t cheap either.

ramana wrote:Sorry private players cant work on future promises. Ther airframes are not changing so give the order so they can plan their manufacturing.
Sitting in Delhi and thinking you can get it like a calatolg order is the problem.

If the price for the planes is settled why are the MoD fooling around with the support price?
That is a Operational and Maintenance (O&M) program and should be decoupled from the weapon system contract.
Here I blame the procurement folks.

"Pricing of LCA, which was under discussion with the costing committee, was finalised two days back in a meeting by the secretary of Defence Production. Now discussion for the pricing of support package is on. That also should be finalised in a month or two. So we should be in a position to sign the contract for the aircraft in the next 3-4 months," Chandra said.


Now Tejas is a new plane. How will the support demand have fidelity in this stage.
Support package of Su-30MKI and Rafale is feasible as they are mature planes and have seen qty production and seen service.

The mfg knows what level of spares is needed and can quote a price for that.

Do we have same insight into Tejas wear and tear?
Especially Mk1A?
Its better to have the production contraact signed and the support contract on three year basis to develop fidelity.

I suspect the MoD had people who want to delay this contract as long as possible.
They are using the DPP to delay and not expedite the program.

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1977
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Picklu » 06 Sep 2019 01:37

My take is the systemic checks and balance essentially pits MoD, IAF and DRDO/HAL/OFB against each other and causes enormous delay. This is not unique in procurement of arms but all aspects of Indian governance face this issue. Just check the amount of court cases pending and it is the same, inordinate delay in each case is the common symptom because everyone is trying to cover his own a$$.

While such c&B are necessary, a timeframe should be defined to complete each step. Agile Sprint Timeboxing is a new buzzword but if you remember, in all our childhood we had a fixed time (a year or later a semester) with a fixed syllabus; none could ask extra duration because they didn't finish the syllabus on time.

My take is that right now DPP does not specify the timeframes to ensure all steps are covered. Sorry to use a non-indic terminology but "speakDo whatever now or forever hold your silence" seems to be a good principle to legally codify here.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53006
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2019 03:59

srai, Totally agree that PBL costs quite a bit.
All I am saying is to nail down the O&M at the beginning of the program is hard as the contractor has no history of the performance, wear and tear and will over quote. So better option is to have three year support contract and from then on quote using actuals. And if the Production contract price is acceptable release it and then go on with the O&M. its not like HAL is an adversarial merchant out to swindle the govt despite popular perception.

Picklu. I suspect the whole DPP is used to delay and deny the services what they need to show the efficacy of each signature.
They will write memoirs of who they saved 1 rupees and wasted ten years.

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1977
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Picklu » 06 Sep 2019 05:44

srai can expound on it but I think his concern is that without a codified PBL, IAF + MoD combo won't release budget on time for support and will raise 100s of questions and notations on file etc etc. That will bring down the up-time of the Tejas squadrons and the same would be utilized by import lobby to go for foreign procurement. There is already a precedence of this type i.e. APFSDS shells for Arjun. Hence, can't say I do not have the same apprehension. I am not saying all IAF+MoD are traitors but given the systemic "each one at other's throat" dynamic, a few corrupt finds easy way to put a spanner in the overall flow and the foreign import appears as least "cost" option (here "cost" is not finance cost but includes all downsides)

About DPP, this is the attempt to codify defense procurement in a single document and hence obviously any and every loophole in this document is being utilized to delay procurement of desi equipment. However the strategy is not new and similar things have been used - sometimes a mail from supposedly the then German Amby to stop local manufacturing of HDW submarines or sometimes an unsigned one page letter of the OFB director to block local manufacturing of Israeli systems. Again, this is not restricted to only weapons - Train 18 facing the same issue. So, it is not like things will suddenly start moving if DPP is removed; the crooks would just find some other loophole.

Hence my suggestion is not to throw away the entire DPP (we have made considerable progress to codify the process, throwing it all away now means starting from scratch which will again take another decade to reach even the current stage of DPP *) but to introduce a time bound step which if followed procedurally would give the approving authorities immunity from legal trouble. At that point of time, IAF+MoD can actually be prosecuted for not maintaining the timeline as procedural lapse.

Based on my experience of bureaucrats, they passionately hate anything where they have to take decisions in a time bound manner.

* Current DPP is AFAIK version 2 : we have already gone through one major and many minor revisions

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 423
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 06 Sep 2019 22:11

$7 B order for 83 LCA fighters by year-end

The IAF expects HAL to deliver 16 LCA Mk 1A fighters every year. HAL's MS Velpari announced that an elaborate ecosystem had been established for the timely manufacture of the LCA. "HAL will only be the integrator. Not one of the 5,000 components for the fighter aircraft will me machined at HAL," he declared. "The wings will be made by L&T, front fuselage by Dynamatic Technolologies, the middle section by VEM and the rear section by Alpha Design," Velpari said

The unit price is reported to have been negotiated around $40 Million.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=62 ... ence-deals

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2723
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Sep 2019 23:02

I will hold celebrations till i see the order being signed....

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 159
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vidur » 06 Sep 2019 23:29

ashishvikas wrote:$7 B order for 83 LCA fighters by year-end

The IAF expects HAL to deliver 16 LCA Mk 1A fighters every year. HAL's MS Velpari announced that an elaborate ecosystem had been established for the timely manufacture of the LCA. "HAL will only be the integrator. Not one of the 5,000 components for the fighter aircraft will me machined at HAL," he declared. "The wings will be made by L&T, front fuselage by Dynamatic Technolologies, the middle section by VEM and the rear section by Alpha Design," Velpari said

The unit price is reported to have been negotiated around $40 Million.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=62 ... ence-deals


Karan, I hope you are pleased with the information flow now. DG Acquisition and Def Secy have been very clear.

I have said that both earlier in the year and recently that this project is on track and that conspiracy theories of sabotage are misplaced. In the event, I again see conspiracy theories from some. I ask all of us :

Don't we think there are enough such things in the media and from our adversaries. Perhaps we could have more positivity and a more balanced and well researched view here ?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 07 Sep 2019 00:08

Vidur wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:$7 B order for 83 LCA fighters by year-end

The IAF expects HAL to deliver 16 LCA Mk 1A fighters every year. HAL's MS Velpari announced that an elaborate ecosystem had been established for the timely manufacture of the LCA. "HAL will only be the integrator. Not one of the 5,000 components for the fighter aircraft will me machined at HAL," he declared. "The wings will be made by L&T, front fuselage by Dynamatic Technolologies, the middle section by VEM and the rear section by Alpha Design," Velpari said

The unit price is reported to have been negotiated around $40 Million.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=62 ... ence-deals


Karan, I hope you are pleased with the information flow now. DG Acquisition and Def Secy have been very clear.

What would make me happy is, every single program publicly known has a page on MoD website with all the milestones in the acquisition (and development in some of the RnD programs like LCA) shown as boxes of a flow chart, becoming green one by one as the program gets through each of the milestones. And the pages updated every month at the least.

Possible..??

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2723
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Sep 2019 00:12

^^anyone remembers the days when 2 flights of LSP would bring joys on the purva janm of this thread? ...

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4363
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Sep 2019 01:58

srai wrote:Don’t be surprised when the “support package” addition brings the final acquisition closer to the original quoted price :twisted:


it won't. Support Package should not cost more than 50% of the total unit acquisition cost. I would expect the deal to be priced around $5 billion or a shad more, if the $40 million unit price figure holds true.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4363
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 07 Sep 2019 02:12

Another article that claims that the deal price will be Rs 45,000 crore for 73 Tejas Mk1As + 10 Mk1 trainers. I'll believe the deal price when the contract is finally signed. Best part is that more than 65% of the money spent will remain in India. Will create a whole lot of jobs and work for HAL, its private suppliers and build the eco-system that will pave the way for the Tejas Mk2/MWF in production.

HAL to receive Rs 45,000 crore orders for 83 LCA fighters

"The cost committee of the Defence Ministry has determined the cost of the 83 LCA Mark 1A aircraft around Rs 45,000 crore and the Indian Air Force is now expected to place orders for these planes in the next few weeks," senior defence sources told ANI.

The LCAs have been designed an developed completely by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Earlier this year, DRDO chief G Satheesh Reddy had presented the Final Operational Clearance (IOC) certificate for the LCA to the IAF and the Defence Ministry at the Aero-India.

Sources said it would be the first-of-its-kind order for any Indian firm and would give major boost for the indigenous defence industry. More than 65 per cent funds of the Rs 45,000 crore order would remain within the country and help in creating jobs in both private and public sectors.

The Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry over two years ago was Rs 50,000 crore but the price determined by the ministry's cost committee was reduced to around Rs 45,000 crore.

The first LCA Mark 1A aircraft is likely to be produced by 2023 once the HAL is done with the supply of the initial 40 planes in the Initial Operational Clearance and Final Operational Clearance standards which have already taken part and proven themselves in the IAF operational exercises such as the Exercise Gagan Shakti.

LCA Mark 1A is the advanced version of Tejas aircraft.

As per the requirements presented by the IAF, the first LCA Mark 1A plane would be supplied in 36 months from the signing of the contract. The new LCA Mark 1A plane will have advanced avionics and radars than the initial 40 LCAs being supplied to the Air Force.

The HAL has so far supplied 16 LCAs to the service which has based them at Sulur in Tamil Nadu under 45 Squadron.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4192
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 05:36

The Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry over two years ago was Rs 50,000 crore but the price determined by the ministry's cost committee was reduced to around Rs 45,000 crore.


So they wasted 2-years just to reduce the price by Rs 5,000 crore [from Rs 50,000 crore to Rs 45,000 crore] :roll:

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2366
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 07 Sep 2019 08:26

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1170137621332283392?s=21


LCA Mk-1A; "Wings will be made by L&T, front fuselage by Dynamatic Technolologies, the middle section by VEM & rear section by Alpha Design" @SPsAviation

A new age of collaborative working, away from traditional mindsets. Will improve efficiency in productivity.

Welcome steps.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1226
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 07 Sep 2019 11:03

srai wrote:
The Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry over two years ago was Rs 50,000 crore but the price determined by the ministry's cost committee was reduced to around Rs 45,000 crore.


So they wasted 2-years just to reduce the price by Rs 5,000 crore [from Rs 50,000 crore to Rs 45,000 crore] :roll:


Time wastage is continuing. Contract signing is still 3-4 months away. Thereafter there will be additional paperwork for permission for starting production & release of funds for production.

Till first funds start flowing, HAL cannot start issuing orders to sub vendors

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4192
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 11:25

Cybaru wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1170137621332283392?s=21


LCA Mk-1A; "Wings will be made by L&T, front fuselage by Dynamatic Technolologies, the middle section by VEM & rear section by Alpha Design" @SPsAviation

A new age of collaborative working, away from traditional mindsets. Will improve efficiency in productivity.

Welcome steps.

It already started with LCA Mk1 SP-16 Wings from L&T. Next 16 FOC lot will progressively incorporate subassemblies from private production partners.
Image

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 159
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vidur » 07 Sep 2019 13:25

srai wrote:
The Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry over two years ago was Rs 50,000 crore but the price determined by the ministry's cost committee was reduced to around Rs 45,000 crore.


So they wasted 2-years just to reduce the price by Rs 5,000 crore [from Rs 50,000 crore to Rs 45,000 crore] :roll:


Incorrect. AON benchmark and approval was 50,000. Price quoted by HAL was much higher. Hence the delay. Kindly check this thread carefully.

Disappointing that it is hard to get cut through biases and mindsets.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2366
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 07 Sep 2019 14:38

Vidur Jee, any chance they can get more than 83 order? Will the line remain empty till MWF comes into play?

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2399
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2019 14:47

More than MWF, there will be production gap between FOC & MK1A. If FOC starts arriving in Nov/Dec, then hopefully in 1.5 years the sqd will be delivered. i.e. mid 2021.

If MK1A starts 3 years from now, i.e. Oct 2022, there will be a gap of more than a year between FOC & MK1A.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4192
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 16:15

Vidur wrote:
srai wrote:
So they wasted 2-years just to reduce the price by Rs 5,000 crore [from Rs 50,000 crore to Rs 45,000 crore] :roll:


Incorrect. AON benchmark and approval was 50,000. Price quoted by HAL was much higher. Hence the delay. Kindly check this thread carefully.

Disappointing that it is hard to get cut through biases and mindsets.

That quote is from a news article. You can read it for yourself.

HAL to receive Rs 45,000 crore orders for 83 LCA fighters

Now they are going to look at support package.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... le29340242.

Trudging along ...

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 159
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vidur » 07 Sep 2019 16:36

srai wrote:
Vidur wrote:
Incorrect. AON benchmark and approval was 50,000. Price quoted by HAL was much higher. Hence the delay. Kindly check this thread carefully.

Disappointing that it is hard to get cut through biases and mindsets.

That quote is from a news article. You can read it for yourself.

HAL to receive Rs 45,000 crore orders for 83 LCA fighters

Now they are going to look at support package.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... le29340242.

Trudging along ...


What part of the following is not clear to you -''50,000 crs is AON benchmark and sanction, Price quoted by HAL was much higher''.

Surely it is clear that HAL price was greater than 50,000 crores ? It was then brought down to 45,000 crores after intervention by MOD. Everyone on this forum knows this very well.

No further comment from me

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3694
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 07 Sep 2019 16:43

Cybaru wrote:Vidur Jee, any chance they can get more than 83 order? Will the line remain empty till MWF comes into play?


Assuming the best case scenario of 16 planes produced a year (HAL promised this by 2020) then the order would take over five years to finish. But knowing HAL and the GOI approach to realizing contracts, I would tack on another 3-5 years on top of that. Besides which we have not finalize the MK1A.

Desi-style means line will build FOC and MK1A at around 6 -10 a year for a decade until the MWF in 2029 so the line will be "busy" until then.

The "gap" will only happen under extreme optimism where HAL will be chugging out 16 planes a year and fulfilling its order in quick time.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aditya_V, Ashok Sarraff, Bart S, saip and 61 guests