Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

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Anujan
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Apparently quite a few were fired and the search is on to find more of them.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms
Pakistan F-16 pilots fired 4-5 AMRAAMs at Indian planes from 40-50 km

Indian troops on the ground are carrying out an extensive search of probable areas where the debris of the AMRAAMs could have fallen
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

ANI
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@ANI
3h3 hours ago
More
Visa duration for Pakistani citizens has been reduced to three months from five years, reports ARY News quoting US Embassy spokesperson.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 281705.cms
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

Anujan wrote:Apparently quite a few were fired and the search is on to find more of them.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms
Pakistan F-16 pilots fired 4-5 AMRAAMs at Indian planes from 40-50 km

Indian troops on the ground are carrying out an extensive search of probable areas where the debris of the AMRAAMs could have fallen
If firing 4-5 AMRAAM they could not take out a single MKI then it shows good on EW/Kintetic manouvering of MKI and not so good on ECCM of AMRAAM.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Iyersan »

Aditya_V wrote:Given the PAF behaved on Feb 27 breakign RoE's, I think we should either Hit the PA again. The PAF declared war.
My sentiments sir. They declared war and our armed forces accepted that the PAF had the intent to hit our military installation and we are STILL NOT doing anything and Modi is only talking in every rally that he will enter and hit but no ground action
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Dileep »

AMRAAM's seeker is sensitive to ECM from covering aircraft (stable, focused jamming). ANY radar seeker is vulnerable to blinding by high energy beam. There is no countermeasure, other than to scare the covering aircraft and force it lose focus.

The AI seminar on Netra did talk about ECM capability. Just saying.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by sudhan »

Singha wrote:ANI
Verified account
@ANI
3h3 hours ago
More
Visa duration for Pakistani citizens has been reduced to three months from five years, reports ARY News quoting US Embassy spokesperson.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 281705.cms
3 months max for journalists. No extenstions possible.

No more 10 year visitor visas for pakis. Also via fees jacked up sharply.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by alexis »

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 12431.html

FWIW...Is it same location mentioned by the print?
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

These are phishing expeditions looking for IAF to put more info. or in the name of non military strikes have we actually hit the PA?
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by ashthor »

twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1103119788287684608

The IAF has never said it used 2000lb bombs! This report heavily relies
on the assumption. If fidayeen in shacks & tents were the target, the IAF
would have used 500lb Fuel Air Explosive bombs which would kill personnel
with little damage to structures

more in the link
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

Image

this image shows that there has been a hit and damage can be seen at the bottom corner of the mail building and entry points can be seen at multiple points on the other buildings. But its really unfortunate to see many media outlets posting low res images to simply show that the buildings are standing. What was the target buildings or terrorists?
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

alexis wrote:https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 12431.html

FWIW...Is it same location mentioned by the print?
this lady owner of moneycontrol is rabidly anti modi on international media and forums.

take her reportage with a bucketful of salt.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Folks we need read reports/statements carefully before coming to conclusions. While the details are hazy but when one uses a report as the basis to draw a conclusion one must be true to the data in the report.

Lets look at the TOI report as an example
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 278310.cms
Use of F-16s, AMRAAM conclusively observed: IAF
"Our air defence system was on full alert. Buildup of PAF aircraft on their (Pakistan) side of the LoC was noticed in time and additional aircraft were scrambled to tackle the adversary," the IAF statement said.

"Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to the AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile. Parts of the missile fell in the area east of Rajouri in Jammu & Kashmir, injuring a civilian on the ground," the statement said.

The IAF said PAF's attempt to attack Indian ground targets saw the intruding fighters being engaged effectively. From the IAF, Mirage-2000 + , Su-30 and MiG-21 Bison aircraft were involved and the PAF aircraft were forced to withdraw in a hurry, evident from large missed distances of weapons dropped by them .
While a lot of details are missing what is being stated via the report is a follows.
1. Buildup on PAF aircrafts on the baki side of LOC was noticed.
2. IAF scrambled additional aircraft to tackle them.
3. PAF attempted to attack Indian ground targets.
4. Intruding fighters where engaged effectively.
5. PAF aircrafts were forces to withdraw in a hurry.
6. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to the AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile.
7. Parts of the missile fell in the area east of Rajouri in Jammu & Kashmir.

There is no details on the following
1. Did ALL of the PAF aircraft enter the Indian side of the LOC or did some hang back?
2. Were the AMRAAM launched by the PAF intruders or from PAF aircrafts still on the baki side of the LOC.
3. The actual area where the engagement occurred.
4. Did Wg Cdr Abhi chase the F-16 across the LOC?

What we can be *deduce* from what has been release above with a fair degree to certainty.
1. The engagements took place between LOC and Rajouri.
2. Wg Cdr Abhi *might* have crossed the LOC BUT the engagement started on the Indian side.

I had previously read Many Pubby's tweet that the engagement was around "Nowshera" so I did a google search. Found earlier reports that are *indicative* of this thought it is not part of the official release by IAF.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... IrOBI.html
‘Over in 90 seconds’: Officers detail India, Pakistan air duel along border
The dogfight between Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, flying a Russian made MiG-21 and a Pakistan Air Force US made F-16 over the skies of the Nowshera in Rajouri District of Jammu Province on Wednesday lasted just 90 seconds, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said on condition of anonymity.

The 90 seconds will perhaps go down in the history of aircraft encounters.

In the 90 seconds, the Pakistani fighter fired two US AMRAAM missiles and an aging MiG-21 shot down a fourth generation F-16 fighter — a feat that will go into the history books considering the asymmetry between the two fighters. Soon after, the MiG, piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was shot down.
....
On Wednesday, the incoming pack of 12 Pakistani fighters, comprising US-made F-16, French-made Mirages and JF-17 fighters made in Pakistan were detected by an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWAC) hovering inside India. Pakistan was responding to air strikes on a Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camp in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

Immediately, fighters from Avantipora, Srinagar and other airfields were scrambled. The MiG-21 being the closest, approached the PAF fighters, a senior official in the security establishment who did not want to be named said. From a distance, the entire dogfight was picked up the AWAC and also other Indian fighters.

The MiG-21 locked on to the F-16 when it was flying at about 15000ft and the F-16 at about 9000 ft. The MiG-21 started diving to get a better shot at the F-16. The F-16 took evasive measures. It went into a steep climb,” a second senior official in the security establishment said and added that “the F-16 climbed to about 26000 ft.

By this time the MiG-21’s pilot had skillfully manoeuvred his aircraft behind the PAF fighter, positioning itself at a sixty-degree angle for maximum impact. It fired a Russian made Vympel R-73 (NATO name AA-11 Archer) missile hitting the F-16. Even as R-73 missile was closing into its target, the wingman of the F-16 now in the crosshairs moved in. He fired his weapon and hit the MiG-21. “No radio call from the MiG -21 was received,” the official said.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Austin, EL/M 8222?
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

2. Were the AMRAAM launched by the PAF intruders or from PAF aircrafts still on the baki side of the LOC.

Todays articles that speak of upto 5 amraams say fired from 40-50km

Look at the map and do the math

These can only have been fired from top cover f16 hanging back fast and high behind the loc over pok or pakistan proper
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

SaiK wrote:Austin, EL/M 8222?
That seems to be the standard jammer fleet wide
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by VikramA »

I find it funny that the narrative from earlier where IAF "missed" hitting the target by about 200mtr by the likes of Ajay Sukla is shifting to " some damages" were done but building is still intact.its like our country men have difficulty believing that our own armed forces can achieve something.these people seem to be grasping at straws to conclude that the airstrikes failed
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Australia has invested in a small troop of growlers

We need some 50 su30 growlers organized in smaller units of 10/sq . The space and power ans loiter time is there
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Pankaj it is the word Multiple which the press as 4-5 as opposed to 2-3 launches
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

A new term Balakotised. ..Bobbitised
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

reminder to those pondering the air battle - first time two sides have fought with awacs. this is a grand game of chess. think of the aircraft as chess pieces: roughly - pawns = a2g or a2a; horse = medium a2a; bishop/hathi = heavy a2a; castle/mantri = tanker; queen = awacs; king = ground command centre buried deep within a mountain

the king/queen manage the air battle and move all the other pieces around and in and out of the active area. if you can break in past the defence with pawn/horse/hathi - you try to knock out the mantri and rani - that leaves your opponent short legged and blind and you can pick them off at will. this is what happened to the iraqis - who otherwise fought bravely as pawn and horse in isolation - and died.

the paf would have tried to keep the Su30's away from the battle so it makes sense that they fired hail-mary (aoa!) amraams in the general direction of the su30's hoping to distract them long enough to let the lone horse charge through and hit something - but that failed. our pawn was able to strike back fast and take down their horse. another horse then got our pawn before it could be covered.

the paf attack was a desperate cavalry charge and a mission fail - that is as good as a kill and shows that our rani was doing her job well that morning
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by nandakumar »

chetak wrote:
alexis wrote:https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 12431.html

FWIW...Is it same location mentioned by the print?
this lady owner of moneycontrol is rabidly anti modi on international media and forums.

take her reportage with a bucketful of salt.
Moneycontrol is indirectly owned by RIL.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by ManuJ »

I am trying to understand why IAF didn't raze those buildings to the ground - what did they gain by letting that infrastructure survive?
And didn't GOI anticipate the Paki denials and the media frenzy?
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

perhaps some MEA mandarin forced to use smaller munitions for "optics" and "minimum apologetic non-military damage" :)

I would have used a barrage of brahmos missiles at 12 noon.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

GAURAV C SAWANT
Verified account
@gauravcsawant
28m28 minutes ago

12 pages of high resolution images (a/c+satellite images) submitted to Govt by #IAF. Hard proof of strikes at #Balakot. Spice 2000: penetrate & explode-small external damage, massive impact post impact. @ShivAroor gets inside details on @IndiaToday. Top focus #IndiaFirst 7.25 pm
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

https://muraselon.com/en/2019/01/syrian ... pice-bomb/

pics of a downed spice device in syria. a old mk83 bomb was attached to pair of wings. pics of the PCB also.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by ranneel »

News coming in that Pakistan airspace will be partially shut till 7 March
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by sudhan »

PAF doing some emergency purchases of air to air munition. Chinese PL-15 ( Chinese take on meteor)

From teeter. Could be misinformation too..

If true, then its Time to put cheeni maal to the sword
Last edited by sudhan on 06 Mar 2019 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Abhibhushan »

Republic is showing some before/after pictures of Balakot Strike. Interesting.
Last edited by Abhibhushan on 06 Mar 2019 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
nam
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

sudhan wrote:PAF doing some emergency purchases of air to air munition. Chinese PL-15 ( Chinese take on meteor)

From teeter. Could be misinformation too..

If true, then its Time to put cheeni maal to the sword
There is no Chinese Meteor in operation. JF17 cannot guide long range AAM, because it's radar can search only for 80KM.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by hanumadu »

Singha wrote:GAURAV C SAWANT
Verified account
@gauravcsawant
28m28 minutes ago

12 pages of high resolution images (a/c+satellite images) submitted to Govt by #IAF. Hard proof of strikes at #Balakot. Spice 2000: penetrate & explode-small external damage, massive impact post impact. @ShivAroor gets inside details on @IndiaToday. Top focus #IndiaFirst 7.25 pm
Shiv Arror/India Today saying the bombs penetrated the buildings and exploded inside. Its the nature of the bombs to not destroy the building but kill the residents inside it.
The air force says 80% of the bombs hit the target. According to IAF, the high resolution images shows by IAF to govt show the holes in the building clearly.

The statement by the paki minister in their parliament that 'The madarsa exists but its as good as non existent' has to be taken in this context. It means the buildings of the madarsa still exists but everybody inside them died.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

doesnt the JF17 already come with the mighty PL-12 which is better than amraam and far better than R77 as claimed by the fanboys?
what happened to the redoubtable A-darter from denel?

does the Mirage3 and Mirage5 fleet have a radar? what AAMs do they carry?

what AAM and radar does the F7 PG carry?

the action needs to spread from kutch to kashmir to draw out all these hidden elements which are avoiding activity by letting the f-solahs and jf-17 concentrate on a narrow front. 75% of PAF tier-1 will currently be on that front and rest 25% inside bunkers.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by AdityaM »

It is not in American interests to accept that Pakistan used F16s, nor to accept that it lost one.

USA always knew that F16 would be used against India in conflict and they were complicit in the hoodwink strategy of showing a usage clause to make India feel good.

If USA accepts F16 loss and punishes pakistan for it, then consequences for USA:
- denting prospect of ongoing sales for F16, especially to India
- Headache of enforcing their punishment
- India will say that USA supplied weapons are controlled by the whims of USA and hence open for sanctions when they are required to be used, so cant trust buying mmrca fighters from USA

If USA doesnt accept F16 loss and doesnt punish pakistan for it, then consequences for USA:
- no dent in prospect of ongoing sales for F16 to other customers & maybe to india too
- India will say that USA is a close partner of Pakistan and so cant trust buying fighters from USA

In either case India can point fingers on USA but in not accepting F16 loss, USA benefits in other areas


Question:
1) How many floors of a 3 story building can Spice like bombs penetrate?
2) Considering the bomb that IAF is said to have used only causes casualty and not building demolition, then will the last floor which got penetrated only suffer bomb related casualty? and this means people on other floors survive (assuming that it is bomb shrapnel that causes damage)
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

A general note- structure being intact can actually be worse for the people inside. The blast wave and the fireball will be contained inside the building walls and not get out.
Survivors will have massive tissue damage from blast and fire.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

Guys, it does not matter if the structure survived, not survived, got painted black or pink.

The bigger picture is if Pak gives us another chance (knowing them they will), the spices will be reaching much faster. This is what we want.

And the reason could be anything.

An bomb exploded in Mumbai local, IAF could be in air within hours. No questions asked.

Now Pak will be in horror when there is an terror attack in India. No more watching our citizens getting killed like sheeps.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Dileep »

We used the Spice to show that rats won't be safe in their burrows. They can dig deeper, but can't escape.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Karthik S »

I wish we go for few dozen GBU 28s from US. MKIs can carry them. Will be useful to hit hardened nuke facilities.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

DRDO has a penetrator program. They are not difficult tech.

Along with I assume there will be major push on Meteor and SFDR. There could be more hold the line action seen on 27th in the future.

We need ramjet bvr chasing the PAF jets in to POK for 100+ KM.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Karthik S »

None of them seem to be 2000 kg +. The heaviest we seem to have is the KAB 1500. Last year 240 were ordered, not sure how many we have them in total.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by tapan »

Deleted
Last edited by tapan on 06 Mar 2019 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

We can use the 155mm dhanush gun barrels to make the long slim superhard case of a gbu28 weapon

Keep two models 1500kg for the rest and 3000kg brahmos sized for su30 centerline. Will be long but slimmer than brahmos

Onlee things is with no wings or engine range will be 10km only from high level

Need a winged glider with a rocket motor also with superhard shell
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