Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

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vera_k
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby vera_k » 25 Apr 2019 23:22

IAF wants more “technological asymmetry” to be able to “penetrate the enemy airspace at will”


For this to happen as a matter of course, I'll say more deep rooted changes need to happen. There's not much incentive to otherwise spend on defense R&D given massive unmet social sector needs.

A couple of possibilities -

a. Start trying out all of the home grown products using a convenient punching bag. If not Pakistan, then the taliban in Afghanistan. Failing which -
b. DRDO, HAL and local vendors should be required to develop and market for export.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2019 00:01

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:Please discuss.

Its good that the IAF has given a critical de-brief of the mission, including the fact that had the Crystal Maze PGMs been released, we would have got the BDA real-time. https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia/five-of-six-designated-targets-were-hit-in-balakot-iaf-review/ar-BBWgliX?ocid=spartanntp

......


According to sources, the operation had planned to use six Israeli Spice 2000 Penetrator type PGM (precision-guided munition) to hit the targets, and five of them had hit the designated mean point of impact (DMPI) on the buildings in the Balakot complex.

One PGM, sources said, did not leave the Mirage 2000 aircraft because it is a 35-year old legacy aircraft and there was drift in the inertial navigation system. It meant that there was a mismatch between the location seen by the PGM and the aircraft at the point of the delivery of the PGM, which led to it not being fired from the aircraft.

Moreover, the IAF had also carried the Crystal Maze AGM 142 munition along with the Spice 2000 to hit the target. The Crystal Maze PGM could not, however, be fired because of heavy cloud cover which did not allow pilots to have a line of sight over the target area.
....

With its backward data linkage, Crystal Maze would have provided a video image of the target being hit which would have helped IAF quell doubts raised in the international media about the effectiveness of its air strike.

“In hindsight, we achieved our aim, hitting five of the six DMPI. Only one was unused. But considering the nature of the propaganda war that needed to be won, we could have used a weapon which would have flattened the target and we could have also sent a platform that gets us clear images or video of the destruction,” sources said.

The IAF has Spice 2000 penetrator type PGM, and not Spice 2000 Mark 84, in its inventory which can be fired from a stand-off distance — in this case, from the Indian side of the Line of Control. One of the rules of engagement stipulated for the operation was not to cross the LoC, although some Mirage 2000 aircraft, which were trying to fire Crystal Maze, did cross over to the other side to get a better line of sight on the target.


There is so much excellent data in this new report that it boggles the mind.

The key is the restraint showed by IAF in not firing the Crystal Maze as brutus fulmen or useless thunderbolt like the FizzileYa fired the AMGhafoor* out of range and missed.
Second was the non-release of the sixth SPICE 2K, due to target confirmation. Again shows the pilot control over their weapons.
The biggest to me is the IAF confirming the Israeli penetrator in their inventory. This is the right weapon to hit such concrete block houses. The MK84 would have made a big bang that's all. It would not have done anything. Besides the Mark 84 is a US bomb and not sold to India. Due to the lower packing fraction of the Israeli penetrator it has ~25% greater penetration than the BLU-109. In fact US is itself switching to this type of lower packing fraction

And now to political message. Hitting Balakot with 5 SPICE2Ks shows there were plenty of of them available with India. And that scared the military attaches from three countries who went to see the BDA and the NOTAM was declared and KSA nooks were evacuated.
That's the biggest gain from this attack on Balakot.
TSP cannot threaten Indian cities with mass casualty nook attack. The threat since Zia ul Haq (wolverine) made in 1986 is over.
All they have are the chotus/ping pong balls as George kaka derisively called after Chagai test.


*Bakis cant call it RAM

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 26 Apr 2019 00:09

So is the present story that the Indian planes (except for the line-of-sight weapon carriers) did NOT cross the LOC? Takes the joy out of imagining the F-16 pajama-shivering over Abbotabad while IAF planes whizzed by them and back. :((

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby rags » 26 Apr 2019 00:20

abhik wrote:
Looking ahead and taking the lessons from the Balakot strike, IAF wants more “technological asymmetry” to be able to “penetrate the enemy airspace at will”, according to the report. It will be looking at better air defence capabilities. The induction of new platforms such as the Russian made S-400 surface to air anti-aircraft missile systems will fill part of the gap

Request for F-35 coming in 3.. 2.. :wink:


There is some major NATO equal ally bill coming up in US Congress. Decks being cleared for the lightening?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 26 Apr 2019 00:42

One new threat we've seen emerge in our other yard is the network of fishing and smuggling vessels that transports terrorist teams and provides logistical/intel support for ISI-run Islamist groups across the Palk Strait. Surely they have an extensive land-based support and comms network in the region as well.

The recent SL attacks are a sign that this new front is likely to be activated. We can expect many subconventional attacks in Southern India by locally embedded Islamist networks, giving Pakistan a degree of plausible deniability. Whether it will give Pakistan any degree of immunity from Balakot-type reprisals is yet to be determined.

To monitor and target the relevant vessels and comms traffic, we need a current-generation counterpart of the Centra Spike system used in the 1980s-90s by US SOCOM & DEA against the Colombian drug trafficking networks. I wonder if any of our naval or coast guard aircraft are currently outfitted for this kind of electronic surveillance work.

http://www.specwarnet.net/americas/isa.htm

Also in 1989, ISA was rumoured to have taken part in the hunt for the richest drug trafficker in the world, Pablo Escobar, operating under the code-name Centra Spike. An investigation by journalist Mark Bowden (author of Blackhawk Down) revealed that in 1989, the Colombian government asked for US help in tracking down Escobar. A top-secret "Army electronic surveillance team," was sent to aid the Colombians in August of 1989, as a part of Operation Heavy Shadow.

Centra Spike was known to operate under several cover names, including Torn Victor, Cemetery Wind, Capacity Gear and Robin Court, and closely matched ISA's description. Stationed in the fifth floor of the American embassy, and operating from specially outfitted Beechcraft 300 and 350 aircraft, Centra Spike tracked Escobar around the country.

Its skills "perfected during missions over El Salvador," Centra Spike honed in on Escobar's cellular phone calls and relayed the information back to Colombian police forces. Unfortunately, the police were either heavily corrupted or unwilling to arrest Escobar, and the intelligence went to waste. When Escobar surrendered in 1991, Centra Spike was pulled out, only to return a year later, when Escobar escaped from his comfortable prison.

Deployed together with a small Delta Force contingent, Centra Spike flew over Colombia in their airplanes and continued to track Escobar. The Beechcrafts were made to appear normal from the outside, save for a wingspan six inches longer. This extra length concealed the main eavesdropping antennas, while others could be lowered from the belly while in flight.

Once inside, Centra Spike agents would plug in laptops into the airplane's power and could simultaneously track four frequencies. This time, the manhunt for Escobar was being led by Col. Hugo Martinez, who did not intend to let Escobar get away, and who operated with ruthless efficiency, aided by Centra Spike's intelligence.


During the operation, a rivalry developed between Centra Spike, and a CIA intelligence unit named Majestic Eagle. Both were doing the same thing in Colombia, except Centra Spike was doing a better job, at a much lower cost. When the CIA took credit for Centra Spike's work, the Army became furious and a competition was arranged between the two units. Tracking dummy targets over Medellin, Centra Spike managed to pinpoint their locations within 200 meters, while Majestic Eagle came no closer than four miles. It was settled, and Majestic Eagle withdrew from the operation. Centra Spike was withdrawn in 1993 for a temporary assignment in Somalia to aid US special forces there, but resumed the hunt later in the year. By November 1993, the noose was tightening around Escobar, and Centra Spike managed to track him down to a suburb of Medellin called Los Olivos. On December 2, 1993, with help from Centra Spike and a mobile Colombian surveillance team, Escobar's hideout was pinpointed, and Colombian police moved in. Escobar was shot as he was trying to escape from the roof of his house. The manhunt was over.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2019 00:51

----EDITED because of incorrect understanding on my part ----

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby saip » 26 Apr 2019 01:16

Now I am eagerly waiting for spin to be put on by that clown ISPR spokesperson.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 26 Apr 2019 01:18

But considering the nature of the propaganda war that needed to be won, we could have used a weapon which would have flattened the target and we could have also sent a platform that gets us clear images or video of the destruction,” sources said.


Vindication.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby souravB » 26 Apr 2019 01:43

rags wrote:
abhik wrote:Request for F-35 coming in 3.. 2.. :wink:


There is some major NATO equal ally bill coming up in US Congress. Decks being cleared for the lightening?

How can IAF buy F-35 with S-400 operational. There has already been a discussion on it
viewtopic.php?p=2342180#p2342180

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2019 02:07

Karan Saar, here is one for you :)

Exclusive: Why Air Force Has Not Shown Video Proof Of Balakot Strike
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusi ... 00-2028332

Balakot airstrike: The Indian Air Force (IAF) planned to use the Crystal Maze missile in conjunction with SPICE 2000 penetrator bombs that Mirage 2000 jets dropped.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2019 02:10

Post-Balakot, Pakistan scrambled jets from 8 bases. Was 10 minutes late: IAF report
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... uIfNK.html

The assessment has revealed several positives, but because “no battle plan ever survives the first contact with the enemy”, there were also deviations from the plan, and some outright negatives too.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2019 03:35

KaranM, Does Crystal Maze have bunker penetration capability?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2019 03:37

Also unfortunate choice of Vintage to describe the M2K. The upgrade cost is about same as new buy cost.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 06:30

ramana wrote:KaranM, Does Crystal Maze have bunker penetration capability?


It's an India specific variant of the Popeye II IMHO, and penetrating warheads are available for the Popeye.

Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye_(missile) An inertial guidance system pilots the missile towards the target; for terminal homing the pilot can control the missile directly via an INS and data link, aiming via either a television or imaging infrared seeker depending on the missile model. It is not necessary for the launching aircraft to direct the missile—control can be passed to another platform while the firing aircraft escapes the area. There are two choices of warhead for the export versions, a 340 kg (750 lb) blast/fragmentation or 360 kg (800 lb) penetrator.

Popeye II or Popeye Lite (also known as Have Lite)—this is a reduced size (shortened to 424 cm/167 in) and weight version (weight is now 1125 kg/2500 lb) of the Popeye to give light aircraft such as the F-16I Sufa a precision standoff strike capability.[4]



Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2019 07:16

Thanks.
So M2K Crystal Maze was more like a back up and not that capable as the SPICE 2K with respect to hardened target like a block house. The 360 kg penetrator warhead could be good for aircraft hangers etc.
SPICE 2K weighs <3 times that.
I note the SPICE guidance is developed from this

Can some one did up every reference on Balakot.
When was it created?
Why was it created?
When did JeM get to Balakot?
Things of that nature.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 07:49

IMHO, Crystal Maze as it is a fly-in missile would give us BDA (bomb damage assessment) and also allow us to hit targets of opportunity that presented themselves.

So, it complements the fire and forget Spice which had fixed coordinates pre-loaded into its system.

The Su-30s also have a rough and ready Popeye equivalent and Spice sort of system. Its the KH-59 ME and KAB-500/1500 series of bombs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-59
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-GBU.html

Won't be one to one, and the Israeli ones are likely more flexible etc, but the Russian EO units will also be devastating.
We also ordered LGB versions recently.
https://www.oneindia.com/india/india-bu ... 15703.html
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... rikes.html

Russian Aircraft Using Wide Range of Guided Weapons In Syria
(Source: Tass-Defense; published October 28, 2015)
MOSCOW --- The Russian Air Force has being employing a wide spectrum of precision-guided munitions in Syria as part of the operation against the Islamic State (IS) terrorist group banned in Russia, Konstantin Sivkov, Ph.D., writes in the Military Industrial Courier weekly.

"The Kh-29 (NATO reporting name: AS-14 Kedge) and Kh-25 (AS-10 Karen) air-to-surface missiles - both laser- and television-guided ones - have been repeatedly used during the hostilities mostly by Sukhoi Su-34 (NATO reporting name: Fullback) [bombers] and Su-25 (Frogfoot) [attack aircraft]," Sivkov says in his article.

The Kh-29 missile has been employed in Syria to deal with hardened targets featuring a concrete protection of up to 1.5 m thick. The weapon’s effective casualty zone may account for 10-15 m. The Kh-25 with a lower yield has been used for taking out targets sitting in densely populated residential areas. Both precision-guided munitions have been employed to avoid civilian casualties.

In addition, there has been a limited use of the KAB-500L laser beam riding and KAB-500Kr television/electro-optical guided bombs in the operation against IS. The bombs feature high accuracy, but their formidable yield prevents their use against targets in urbanized terrain. Therefore, various KAB-500 versions are reserved for high-value terrorist targets situated at a distance from building where noncombatants can be.

Another key advantage offered by the laser-guided PGMs as well as the electro-optical PGMs relying on the scene matching area correlation technology is their ability to destroy targets of opportunity without preliminary reconnaissance. The Kh-25 is a multipurpose semi-active homing air-to-surface missile. The Kh-25ML version mounts a laser homing head and the Kh-25MTP an electro-optical one. The Kh-25 is designed to eliminate pinpoint targets both on the battlefield and behind the enemy’s lines. Its maximum range is 10 km, speed 870 m/s and warhead weight 86 kg.

The Kh-29 is a guided air-to-surface missile. Its Kh-29L variant carries a laser homer and the Kh-29T version is equipped with a TV one. The type can be employed against surface hard targets, including concrete runways and shelters. The Kh-29T has a range of 12 km and the Kh-29L’s range equals 10 km. Their warheads weigh 320 kg. The KAB-500 is a precision-guided bomb designed for dealing with pinpoint stationary surface targets, including concrete shelters. The KAB-500L has semi-active laser guidance and the KAB-500Kr uses TV guidance. The bomb can be fitted out with either the high-explosive or high-explosive/penetrator warheads weighing 380 kg.


Su-30 firing a Kh-29. Note the Litening. We may have managed to combine the KH-29 guidance with cue-ing from the Litening, adding up to a formidable capability.

https://scontent-ort2-1.cdninstagram.co ... tagram.com

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2019 08:07

nobody is going around selling manned or unmanned ELO delivery platforms.
weapons are in control with present lot and more new types nearing IOC from domestic efforts like garuda family, saaw, helina etc.

what we lack is a ELO delivery platform and powerful escort jamming capability for non-ELO strike forces. the escort jamming situation is easily rectified if we throw money and resources at it, elta even has a cots solution but its better we make our own.

we need to step up efforts for the ghatak UCAV even if it initially has to fly with a imported engine. a modest payloads of 2 missiles or 4 gliding bombs could be enough to start with, but it must be ELO and preferably subsonic with a deeply managed thermal, acoustic and RF signature. a long range is preferable than get into complexities of a2a unmanned refueling. think of it as a modernized unmanned F117.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 26 Apr 2019 08:10

There are 2 kinds of BDAs: one for IAF/GoI and one for media/public.
Winning the propaganda war for Op Balakot required the second kind - big visible bangs and more important, terrorist body parts scattered around. While the Crystal Maze would have provided I guess TV visuals, it wouldn't have helped the ISPR proxies, the so-called "OSINT" and their mouthpieces, the MSM, who'd have said that there was no one living there.

So, I'm not sure if Crystal Maze really would have helped.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 08:26

What I am pointing out is that if IAF relaxes ROEs a bit, it has far more than just the Mirages to deal such kind of blows. Around 245 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s to be precise, and even the 120 odd Bisons have the KAB-500 Kr integrated.
Ironically, our Jaguars which are our focused strike aircraft have the most limited PGM set currently, with only LGBs integrated, though they do also have the Sensor Fuzed Weapons we got from Textron.

Also shows why the DRDO glide bombs will be such a boost for the IAF once ready, with 100/30km strike capability (Laser &/or INS-GPS guidance) and then there is the SAAW, again with a 100km range. We could launch a small flotilla of them from over a 100km away.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Apr 2019 08:47

very contradictory to the capability of crystal maze - point being, it failed on its "all weather" capability then. Going forward, I would (on the pilot seat) be able to fire on GPS/GAGAN high-precision coordinates with INS (or fusion) w/ being on LOS mode. It ain't always a visual aspect if I have to accept, it is an "all weather" weapon.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 26 Apr 2019 08:56

Jaguars will be integrated with the SAAW soon. So there is that capability that will come online. I suppose other pgms will be integrated too. However with the LCA progressing I'd assume the IAF using them for strike role going forward.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2019 10:03

SaiK wrote:very contradictory to the capability of crystal maze - point being, it failed on its "all weather" capability then. Going forward, I would (on the pilot seat) be able to fire on GPS/GAGAN high-precision coordinates with INS (or fusion) w/ being on LOS mode. It ain't always a visual aspect if I have to accept, it is an "all weather" weapon.


popeye family has INS/GPS and TV guidance. I am sure it can hit in gps mode but no tv uplink then and no chance of hitting agile targets that pilot can retarget in the last few minutes. they must have kept a TV link to go after vehicular assets like missile TELARs that might receive a warning of incoming strike and move, so GPS co-ords fed in at launch time will not work.

the harops too have some TV link - there is video of them diving onto a Pantsyr battery which is firing at other targets.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Apr 2019 11:48

Question is why would the IAF use mirage when the mki could have probly done the job as well? Or possibly better since I think the latter would have been more survivable?

1. Better low level flight characteristics?
2. Better weapons? Although as Karan points out there is plenty of Russian kit that could have done the job.
3. Better ecm? Doubtful considering that these were probly noon upgrade m2k.
4. Way to show French kit so as to get support for more rafale?
5. Lower RCS? doubtful with efts.
6. less collateral damage?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Apr 2019 11:59

The IAF used non upgraded M 2000, the only real advantage they could have had over SU 30 was lower RCS. But I think the IAF kept the MIg 29's, SU 30 and M 2000 ready for a major PAF black lash and for A2A, the PAF did come relativity strongly the next day.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 12:41

The IAF used the Mirage 2000 not the Su-30 MKI because the former had SPICE & Crystal Maze capability, the Su-30s didn't.

The KH-59MEs & KAB-1500Krs are likely far more destructive, without the kind of fusing the SPICE has, that it digs deep then blows up, with a limited explosive charge & destruction via over pressure.

Russians would probably be shocked at the thought of not using explosives. :lol:

Their BDA would have been the mountaintop melted rivers of stone after dumping a few hundred tons of explosives on it.

Going forward, the IAF is adding SPICE to the Su-30s as well.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 26 Apr 2019 13:04

I might as well put this shite here because we'll hear soon enough in the aviation mags.

Apparently on twitter, Alan Warnes -- a self-proclaimed leading columnist and former editor of Air Forces Monthly and PAF shrill-- had met with the Paki AM Mujahadeen Khan and said the Pakis had "confirmed" the SU-MKI kill.

Not linking. You can search for Warnes on TW if so inclined. We attacked him but is a bad look.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 26 Apr 2019 13:11

What’s the point cholaji I heard through my sources that PAF had actually knocked down our phalcon do you believe this ?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 13:17

chola wrote:I might as well put this shite here because we'll hear soon enough in the aviation mags.

Apparently on twitter, Alan Warnes -- a self-proclaimed leading columnist and former editor of Air Forces Monthly and PAF shrill-- had met with the Paki AM Mujahadeen Khan and said the Pakis had "confirmed" the SU-MKI kill.

Not linking. You can search for Warnes on TW if so inclined. We attacked him but is a bad look.


Warned is an AFM flunkey who was already persona non grata with the IAF since 2001 because he tried to run a pro PAF campaign.

So dont worry.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 26 Apr 2019 13:31

@Suryag @Karan

Saars, I posted this onlee because AFM is still widely read in the global mil community and so has some impact unlike someone's Paki uncle's friend from the PAF.

Yes, I know that Warnes is a whore for the Pakis. Not worried since it is no surprise. But still I thought it is important to prepare people. That said, I'll delete the post if you think it inappropriate.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 14:26

This is old news... it was out several weeks back on twitter (?) - somebody had posted it already.

Nobody serious in the global mil community of any import believes all the stuff in these flunkey magazines.. what matter is *real* capability, not the chest beating the Pakistanis do.

The IAFs inability to understand PR or wage PR campaigns is a problem no doubt, but we have to focus on the bigger picture, which is actual warfighting capability.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 15:10

So, the key takeaways from the Balakot/Feb27th campaign.

IAF positives

- IAF officers led from the front, command crews. This is a big deal even for the western AF who are more and more used to their senior guys flying desks.

- The pilots strike training was excellent, they flew exactly as they were meant to, with zero deviations, with munitions they had only simulated and delivered them exactly as they were meant to. Compare & contrast to Paki use of H4 Raptors and AMRAAMs.

- On Feb 27th, A2A pilots showed equal elan, avoiding multiple AMRAAM launches without panic & continuing to stay in the fight against much higher odds. The PAF in contrast *refused* to take on the IAF strike package headed to Balakot.

- IAF fighter pilots are aggressive, have zero qualms in going for the kill and are the decider. A MiG-21 pilot taking on, let alone shooting down a F-16 would be unheard of, yet WingCo Abhinandan did exactly that. This pysche reflects the IAF pilots skills, self confidence and morale.

- Netra used in wartime mission to lead the opening strike, an incredible vote of confidence for a local made system.

- Quality of intel was excellent, allowing the IAF to make a strike in 3 hrs if similar quality is available in the future

- IAF Spice integration & Crystal Maze worked out at wartime. Only 1 fighter had INS drift, a 35 yr old legacy aircraft means a non upgraded Mirage. Again, a non issue more or less, because the Mirages are being upgraded and the FOC config retains the Crystal Maze and SPICE integration

IAF: Things to improve

-The key thing here is to have HAL and Dassault speed up the Mirage 2000 upgrade, the slow rate of upgrade is literally unacceptable. The MiG-29 Upg is much further along.

-IAF AWACS numbers are an issue. This will particularly be a challenge if IAF takes the fight deep into Pakistan.

- IAF needs more aircraft on QRA, the delay in building hangers etc due to the budget limitations needs to be fixed.

-IAF wants tech asymmetry for A2A and cites AMRAAMs as an issue. Also notes S-400 and Rafales will help. Eitherways, this is a good time to push the GOI to move forward on the Su-30 upgrade, whichever Govt comes in and add new generation missiles to it, and also push the Astra NG project.

-Other low hanging fruit are the Tejas Mk1A orders, SDRs, and EW (accelerate the new RWR and lightweight SPJs for the Su-30s to enable more coverage for strike missions).

- SDR issue is the simplest example of pointless delay.

- BDA being done by Crystal Maze is an amazing example of how rapidly the IAF has moved up the tech. ladder, but at the same time depending on a friendly country for BDA images is not acceptable. Clearly we didn't have enough sats available for round the clock coverage and repositioning one would have meant a loss of sat available life (fuel etc). We need more investments here.

- Additional EW aids like Comjam & ELINT aircraft (IAF business jet plan) needs to be refocused to include jamming of A2A radars as well. This can have disproportionate dividends in a conflict.

- Indian Army AD needs to drastically improve. Its a real issue that the PAF PGMs were able to come close to important formation HQs without being intercepted, the Akash order/deliveries for IA, MRSAM orders need to be accelerate.

- PGMs are the future. Irrespective of how good the Litening & dumb bomb accuracy is, if you use airpower and wish to avoid the propaganda of airframe losses, you need to have a heavy inventory of PGMs. Stuff for the IAF to think about, as it has tended to prioritize airframe numbers & run after *all procurements* like the C-295 instead of focusing first & foremost on the combat heavy elements.

What've learnt about the PAF

- Psyche, the PAF was forced to respond with a haphazard plan on Feb 27th, they have to be seen to respond to the IAF asap. Internal political pressures plus public perception.

- Were able to coordinate a large force strike reasonably well, but let down badly due to risk avoidance of fighter crew, poor BVR tactics and equipment limitations.

- F-16 remains their one stop shop for A2A and strike. The only aircraft thanks to AMRAAM able to face off against IAF jets. Also, explains why despite larger numbers, were not used effectively to close to the IAF planes in merge, because the PAF is simply unwilling to lose these aircraft.

- PAF F-16s were unable to deter the IAF Su-30s despite having larger numbers in play, firing first. This shows the quality of the IAF crew but also the wartime fit of the F-16s could not block the Su-30 WCS. Somewhere, the Russians and all the IAF/DRDO guys who worked on the Su-30 were vindicated. Note, the IAF specifications for the Su-30 WCS were demanding enough that it took till 2012 for the final version to see service.

- PAF's elite picked for a strike, were unable to take down the IAF's squadron standard aircrew despite overwhelming numbers. This is a resounding vote of confidence for the investment in IAF training methodology.

- The much vaunted JF-17s were a complete joke due to their inability to take on even 2 Mirage 2000s despite outnumbering them 4:1 and even more. The PAF didn't even bother deploying the JF-17 against the Su-30.

-JF-17 radars were not up to the task. Refusal of PAF to deploy PRC ZDK-03 over land & order of more Erieyes confirms this issue.

- PAF's haphazard modernization of different fighter classes with different munition types didn't pay off. The F-16 LGBs and Mirage 3/5 Raptors were both man-in-loop systems and hence couldn't be guided in as PAF fighters broke off attacks too quickly

- PAF's BVR & otherwise training has lacunae and is built around risk avoidance. Launching multiple BVR from RMax and expecting success

-They simply wouldn't close in to score kills despite outnumbering the IAF significantly. The IAF took on multiple PAF bogies despite being outnumbered. The PAF on Feb 26th, refused to.

- Implies PAF will now revert to GPS guided bombs from F-16 and JF-17 in the future. We need to invest in GPS jammers. This *is* going to be the PAF response henceforth.

-PAFs investment in Erieyes and own C3I enables it to do more with less. We need to take anti access systems against AEW&C into account, beyond the Meteor. Having Meteor on Rafales, Mirages and RVV-BD on Su-30s (apart from S-400) can be a real dampener for the PAF.

-PAF will seek more and more with China, irrespective of the JF-17 and ZDK-03 flop show. They have no other options, lacking domestic capability. Also expect orders to Turkey, Europe for EW aids and as 2nd line of supply. We need to take this into account.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 26 Apr 2019 17:29

ramana wrote:Also unfortunate choice of Vintage to describe the M2K. The upgrade cost is about same as new buy cost.

This is an interesting thought. Have u heard the story of George Washington's Axe? "The handle has been changed 20 times and the blade 40 times but it's the same Axe!"
I don't think the wing and fuselage aerodynamics of the Rafale are much better than those of the 2K - except the addition of the canards which adds a degree of freedom. The engines, avionics all may be better, the controls may now be digital/fly-by-wire. Get nice pilot seats and save weight by removing the French Air Fauj champagne-bottle holders. So why not bypass the whole Procurement ***** by simply "upgrading" the 2K into a Super-Rafale? Of course it needs engineering support from the manufacturers, and it will be a different, unadvertised design. But the possibilities are enormous. This is why I said don't get rid of the MiGs except to drop them on Paki buildings, just re-wire them into missiles or add a re-engine and some more controls and you have a fighter that can go into the 2030s easily. Maybe add high-lift devices to reduce takeoff and landing speeds. The M2K has these small strakes on the sides of the inlets, that MIGHT be grown into small canards, or they could add canards further ahead with some analysis and testing (not easy.., but there must be knowledge now from the LCA Navy version). If the Israelis back in the 1960s could scavenge a Mirage to make the first Kfir, why not?

Metal fatigue will eventually limit fuselage and wing life so another "upgrade program" could gradually replace all those panels and beams.

OT maybe but useful for the enthusiasts:
While the Mirage IIICJ proved to be extremely effective in the air-superiority role, its relatively short range of action imposed some limitations on its usefulness as a ground-attack aircraft.

Thus, in the mid-1960s, at the request of Israel, Dassault Aviation began developing (but reading on makes it clear that it was an Israeli design) the Mirage 5, a fair-weather, ground-attack version of the Mirage III. Following the suggestions made by the Israelis, advanced avionics located behind the cockpit were removed, allowing the aircraft to increase its fuel-carrying capacity while reducing maintenance costs.

By 1968, Dassault had finished production of the 50 Mirage 5Js paid for by Israel, but an arms embargo imposed upon Israel by the French government in 1967 prevented deliveries from taking place. The Israelis replied by producing an unlicensed copy of the Mirage 5, the Nesher, with technical specifications for both the airframe and the engine obtained by Israeli spies.[1] Some sources claim Israel received 50 Mirage 5s in crates from French Air Force (AdA), while the AdA took over the 50 aircraft originally intended for Israel.[2][3][4] ...Two powerplants were initially selected for trials, the General Electric J79 turbojet and the Rolls-Royce Spey turbofan. In the end, the J79 was selected, not least because it was the same engine used on the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, which the Israelis began to acquire from the United States in 1969, along with a license to produce the J79 themselves. The J79 was clearly superior to the original French Atar 09, providing a dry thrust of 49 kN (11,000 lbf) and an afterburning thrust of 83.4 kN (18,750 lbf).

In order to accommodate the new powerplant on the Mirage III's airframe, and to deliver the added cooling required by the J79, the aircraft's rear fuselage was slightly shortened and widened, its air intakes were enlarged, and a large air inlet was installed at the base of the vertical stabilizer, so as to supply the extra cooling needed for the afterburner. The engine itself was encased in a titanium heatshield.


Hmm.. so there may be truth to the rumor that in early trials, an engine broke (melted?) its mounts and ate the pilot during max a/b takeoff.
BTW, see the kfir design for canard installation. I think Rafale is an evolved Kfir.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 26 Apr 2019 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2019 17:46

the PAF got some 2800 LGB/JDAM kits from the americans. these they have kept for a real war.
for just around 70 F16 thats a lot of kit.

the list is on the web somewhere. the F-16s can use these.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51 ... 16s-02396/

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.

==>500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
==>1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs ===> these will be consumed 500 of them by the JDAM kits
===>700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster external link bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 26 Apr 2019 17:58

Folks!!! Check Google Earth. Images updated with date 2/27/19!!!

Karan M
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 18:00

They are referring to the integration of SPICE/Crystal Maze on the non upgraded Mirage 2000H/TH we purchased.

Without upgrades, they are "vintage" yet very potent still.

They have highly accurate but dated INS, which likely don't have integral GPS. Wasn't around in the 80's.

More than good enough to get you near the target, launch most weapons etc.

But when it comes to deployment of long range PGMs. after flying long distances, suffer from issues such as INS drift and hence transfer alignment (PGM co-ords and INS co-ords wont match, as PGM co-ords come from sat-fix and INS co-ords have drifted).

Additional stand by GPS strapped into aircraft won't be updating the aircraft INS.

INS alignment is done on ground before takeoff and is a time consuming, lengthy process with mech INS of that generation.

UlanBatori wrote:
ramana wrote:Also unfortunate choice of Vintage to describe the M2K. The upgrade cost is about same as new buy cost.

This is an interesting thought. Have u heard the story of George Washington's Axe? "The handle has been changed 20 times and the blade 40 times but it's the same Axe!"
I don't think the wing and fuselage aerodynamics of the Rafale are much better than those of the 2K - except the addition of the canards which adds a degree of freedom. The engines, avionics all may be better, the controls may now be digital/fly-by-wire. Get nice pilot seats and save weight by removing the French Air Fauj champagne-bottle holders. So why not bypass the whole Procurement ***** by simply "upgrading" the 2K into a Super-Rafale? Of course it needs engineering support from the manufacturers, and it will be a different, unadvertised design. But the possibilities are enormous. This is why I said don't get rid of the MiGs except to drop them on Paki buildings, just re-wire them into missiles or add a re-engine and some more controls and you have a fighter that can go into the 2030s easily. Maybe add high-lift devices to reduce takeoff and landing speeds. The M2K has these small strakes on the sides of the inlets, that MIGHT be grown into small canards, or they could add canards further ahead with some analysis and testing (not easy.., but there must be knowledge now from the LCA Navy version). If the Israelis back in the 1960s could scavenge a Mirage to make the first Kfir, why not?

Metal fatigue will eventually limit fuselage and wing life so another "upgrade program" could gradually replace all those panels and beams.

OT maybe but useful for the enthusiasts:
While the Mirage IIICJ proved to be extremely effective in the air-superiority role, its relatively short range of action imposed some limitations on its usefulness as a ground-attack aircraft.

Thus, in the mid-1960s, at the request of Israel, Dassault Aviation began developing (but reading on makes it clear that it was an Israeli design) the Mirage 5, a fair-weather, ground-attack version of the Mirage III. Following the suggestions made by the Israelis, advanced avionics located behind the cockpit were removed, allowing the aircraft to increase its fuel-carrying capacity while reducing maintenance costs.

By 1968, Dassault had finished production of the 50 Mirage 5Js paid for by Israel, but an arms embargo imposed upon Israel by the French government in 1967 prevented deliveries from taking place. The Israelis replied by producing an unlicensed copy of the Mirage 5, the Nesher, with technical specifications for both the airframe and the engine obtained by Israeli spies.[1] Some sources claim Israel received 50 Mirage 5s in crates from French Air Force (AdA), while the AdA took over the 50 aircraft originally intended for Israel.[2][3][4] ...Two powerplants were initially selected for trials, the General Electric J79 turbojet and the Rolls-Royce Spey turbofan. In the end, the J79 was selected, not least because it was the same engine used on the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, which the Israelis began to acquire from the United States in 1969, along with a license to produce the J79 themselves. The J79 was clearly superior to the original French Atar 09, providing a dry thrust of 49 kN (11,000 lbf) and an afterburning thrust of 83.4 kN (18,750 lbf).

In order to accommodate the new powerplant on the Mirage III's airframe, and to deliver the added cooling required by the J79, the aircraft's rear fuselage was slightly shortened and widened, its air intakes were enlarged, and a large air inlet was installed at the base of the vertical stabilizer, so as to supply the extra cooling needed for the afterburner. The engine itself was encased in a titanium heatshield.


Hmm.. so there may be truth to the rumor that in early trials, an engine broke (melted?) its mounts and ate the pilot during max a/b takeoff.
BTW, see the kfir design for canard installation. I think Rafale is an evolved Kfir.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 18:03

Yes, exactly. Only 500 JDAM though. These will now be dusted off and used against us. The Chinese REK (Glide bombs) with Beidou etc as well.

We need mass deployment of Akash, which can take down these kind of targets.

Pak will rely more and more on mass deployment of PRC GPS type "fire and forget" munitions to protect their assets and also cause damage from stand off distances.

For PAF standoff = standoff from both IAF A2A and A2G assets as versus conventional depiction of protection against SAMs.

Singha wrote:the PAF got some 2800 LGB/JDAM kits from the americans. these they have kept for a real war.
for just around 70 F16 thats a lot of kit.

the list is on the web somewhere. the F-16s can use these.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51 ... 16s-02396/

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.

==>500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
==>1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs ===> these will be consumed 500 of them by the JDAM kits
===>700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster external link bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse

Karan M
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Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 18:11

Dileep wrote:Folks!!! Check Google Earth. Images updated with date 2/27/19!!!


Pls provide details.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 26 Apr 2019 18:18

Details: The hill top where the strike happened on 26/2 image on Google earth is currently updated to 27/2. By the look of the shadows, the time is late morning maybe 11 am.

Some tiles in POK is updated to 10/3. Zoom in into the town of Kotli. But many other areas are still old.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 26 Apr 2019 18:24

Unfortunately, the tile where the dogfight happened are still old.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Apr 2019 18:26

Dileep wrote:Unfortunately, the tile where the dogfight happened are still old.


Do you have the cordinates where the F-16 crashed?


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