Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Eric Leiderman
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 28 Apr 2019 10:36

When will we get info on the other two targets hit, I have a feeling that there was a strategic signal sent to our neighbour, which would be diluted if publised

ramana
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Apr 2019 11:43

Sameer Joshi article mentions them.

Balakot being in Pak is getting more attemtion.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Apr 2019 12:15

I wondered if the "3 targets" meant the 3 different targets at the hilltop: the trainees' dorm (hundreds of terrorists), the "instructors" goat-buggering center, and the magazine from where sympathetic detonations launched RPGs/ATGMs into the forest below, blasting out trees. The last was the one that "nearly took the doors" off the villagers' houses far away.
But the duration of the raid (over 10 minutes, maybe over 15 minutes) makes that unlikely: the spread in distance between targets had to be large, given transonic speed of the raiders and simultaneous crossing of the Yellow Sea (to maximize surprise). (As ramana and Eric imply) What was so devastating and interesting that neither India nor TSP mentioned it?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 28 Apr 2019 20:40

Meanwhile, Pakistani airspace is still closed (until
May 15th): https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/upload/N ... 459-19.TXT

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Sid » 28 Apr 2019 20:51

khan wrote:Meanwhile, Pakistani airspace is still closed (until
May 15th): https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/upload/N ... 459-19.TXT


They fear an Atlantique type incident, where IAF waited month after Kargil for any open opportunity. IAF is looking for a equalizer, and they know it. Hence the airspace is closed.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Apr 2019 23:34

Air space closing may be to facilitiate flight of nukes out of Pakistan, accompanied by Jarnails. They can see the writing on the wall - in Balochistan. While we have been like deer-in-headlights about Kashmir LOC, the real way has been heating up in west and south Balochistan.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 29 Apr 2019 00:08

UlanBatori wrote:Air space closing may be to facilitiate flight of nukes out of Pakistan, accompanied by Jarnails.


Yak herder that is a myth, if you follow google earth. Those flight may be to part a part of their arsenal to Saudi's / quid pro quo of 2Billion they got from the masters however they do maintain a rapidly growing stockpile with all the churning sites and storage sites still active and hot.

They will never part away with only life saving injection they have , till they die (natural causes off course)

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 29 Apr 2019 00:32

we need a small numbers of armed drones, mainly for JK, we have air superiority in JK, you find a bunch of infiltrators (the drone can be up for 24 hours), no need to wait, alert troops, ferry them, set an ambush (you have to guess where they will be in an hour time, time needed for good guys to scramble) and then kill with added risk. All of that is needed when a drone spots them (how an unarmed drone finds them now), preferably an armed one (or a armed one is moved there) and you take them down from air.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 29 Apr 2019 00:45

UlanBatori wrote:Air space closing may be to facilitiate flight of nukes out of Pakistan, accompanied by Jarnails. They can see the writing on the wall - in Balochistan. While we have been like deer-in-headlights about Kashmir LOC, the real way has been heating up in west and south Balochistan.


LOL - the NOTAM is the same as before, the only difference being they are opening access to non-Indian carriers to fly from Karachi onwards to transit even if flight is originating in the motherland. Nothing to browbeat about.

Btw, Ghafoora has called a presser tomorrow afternoon.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Apr 2019 02:13

krishna_krishna wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Air space closing may be to facilitiate flight of nukes out of Pakistan, accompanied by Jarnails.

Yak herder that is a myth,...however they do maintain a rapidly growing stockpile with all the churning sites and storage sites still active and hot.
They will never part away with only life saving injection they have , till they die (natural causes off course)


To paraphrase Ronald "Ray-Gun" Reagan (R.I.P.):"There u go again!" (dhoti-shivering). We don't report based on myths. We report based on the unerring logic of reliable reports collated across sources, not by announcements from interested parties. Boldly published with detailed references in the open literature, subject to peer, beer and boor review (PB2R). If you can rebut the logic of those (or if a mushroom cloud rises... :eek: ) we will be happy to admit our error. Until then, the most "nuclear" of Pakistan's weapons is the poo from someone given a Barium milk-shake for tummy X-rays. "Nuclear Waste".

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2019 03:05

srin wrote:Some additions:
- Radars: THD-1955 replacements, more aerostat based surveillance radars, VHF (anti-stealth) radars.


I think we have some leeway for THD-1955 replacement as the radars were upgraded a few years back.

- SAMs: ABM (radar + missile) cover for more cities. Also, where does LRSAM/MRSAM fit in ? Is it even on ?


XRSAM = BMD project (DRDO)
LRSAM = S-400 (5 squadrons, 10 batteries)
MRSAM = Barak-8 (DRDO/IAI, 9 squadrons, 18 batteries, ordered)

- Lots of anti-radiation missiles.


NGARM is in development, but we do have a decent inventory of HAROP and even Harpy (if the problems with the batch were fixed)

Negative additions (as in - don't procure):
- Armed drones that we wanted to get from US: Don't see the scope for these in either Op Balakot or the subsequent engagements.


Under a project under discussion, most of our existing drones are to be armed.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Apr 2019 11:29

Hindustan Times Verified account @htTweets

Pakistan says ready to take Indian journalists to Balakot
http://bit.ly/2PBOomr

11:32 AM - 29 Apr 2019









Image






Two Indian origin Pakistan journos already have started @dhume



Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 30 Apr 2019 16:02

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/300419/drdo-missile-was-the-1st-choice-not-spice-2000.html
Officials from the National Security Agency, Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), the three serving chiefs of the Indian forces, DRDO scientists and other stakeholders met the following day in a high-level security meeting in which it was decided in principle that the Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW), developed indigenously by DRDO, be used in retaliation.

DRDO scientists began working on assembling the SAAW to the mother aircraft, the French-origin Mirage 2000 jets that were used in the Balakot attack, according to the IAF. The weapon was specially made to hit the target with a high level of accuracy.

A few days before the operation, the DRDO’s SAAW was dropped and instead the Spice-2000 manufactured by the Israeli defence technology company Rafael, was used.

“Scientists at DRDO over two weeks began assembling the SAAW. The smart guide bomb that was assembled was relatively smaller (in size) when compared to the Israeli Spice-2000, if used it has the capability of escaping the enemy’s radar. With high accuracy, it has been developed with an equal class of up to 1000 kg. However, SAAW was replaced by Spice-2000,” said an insider.


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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 30 Apr 2019 19:38

Half baked article !!! Why was it dropped ?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Apr 2019 20:38

Likely, it wasnt dropped but used for other targets.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 30 Apr 2019 21:23

It isn't integrated with even the Jaguar at the moment. They wanted to do the Mirages?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Apr 2019 22:14

I wish they had used them en masse. But just love the fact we considered our own stuff and at short notice the work began to make it ready.
Reminds me of a certain Guru Dronacharya's and Dileeps scenario posted ages ago, when DRDO guys are brought in to field-deploy lab stuff ASAP for that operational "edge". Also, if SAAW was considered, then its likely very near operational capability (and hopefully, orders unless brochuritis strikes IAF AHQ again).

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Apr 2019 22:27

We are definitely building our own capabilities, deploying our systems and in turn, user confidence.

Some examples I remember:
*Indra-2 in IAF exercises pleasantly surprising then CAS, our first indigenous radar
*Tarang RWR on Bison outperforming F-16 systems/giving us an edge in Cope India -2
*3D-CAR on trials in Parakram in 2001, proving itself by detecting Pak low RCS UAV incursions
*Samyukta being called out as a state of the art system which changed Signals capabilities by an ex Head Signals
*NPOL USHUS being used to track & "defeat" a LA class nuke sub in exercise with USN
*HAL getting a letter of appreciation from IA field unit for ALH performance
*Swathi WLR being used to defeat PA arty & ensuring they were suppressed
*DRDL head Prahlad getting Akash ordered by taking down a UAV when its tow target malfunctioned, IAF team had to acknowledge performance
*IAF conducting multiple test fires of Akash against the most difficult targets and missile worked fine
*CAS Arup Raha being so delighted by the Tejas that he went "off script" and took over the test demo flight completely
*Netra used in Balakot ops

I am sure there are many many more, but then our domestic establishment doesn't even track this sort of stuff with any seriousness or understand the importance of having all this known and recognized.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2019 23:24

Karan M wrote:I wish they had used them en masse. But just love the fact we considered our own stuff and at short notice the work began to make it ready.
Reminds me of a certain Guru Dronacharya's and Dileeps scenario posted ages ago, when DRDO guys are brought in to field-deploy lab stuff ASAP for that operational "edge". Also, if SAAW was considered, then its likely very near operational capability (and hopefully, orders unless brochuritis strikes IAF AHQ again).


Right after Balakot I saw a news report from Hyderabad about indigenous weapon capability and nothing more after that.

SAAW has a 100 kg Penetration warhead of which explosive is 20%.
So 20 kg blast if it goes through. Which it won't as the Balakot walls are quite thick.

The reason SPICE 2K penetrator model was used is the Balakot target was a former armory or blockhouse built during 1980s.

I have been saying since the first day after the hit.

SAAW would have bounced off the walls.
So its nonsense for that scientist to do bokwas and create a grouse that his design was not used.
His saying this actually undermines the SAAW use case.

SAAW will take out normal sangar/field fortifications/bunkers.
So try to integrate SAAW with IA/IAF helicopters to be below the threshold.

BTW DRDO guys were asked before Balakot and the right ordnance was tasked.
IAF does know how to select and use the right ordnance for defeating targets.

Now for my grouse.

DRDO has not looked at hard target defeat systematically.

The HSLD 250 and 450 were developed as replacement bombs for the 1000 Lb MC WWII vintage British bomb and a smaller one.
Both have cast steel case and are good for general targets but not aircraft hangers.
And the 450 HSLD design was found lacking and they had to develop a 500 kg GP bomb with tungsten pellets.
Whats going on?
The IAF has had the SPICE 2k kit since the early 2015s.
Obviously there needs to be a 2000 lb class bomb with DRDO.
Yet the DRDO 2000 lb GP bomb is more for blast than for PCB.
There is a Russian 2000 lb bomb. Is this a copy of that?
DRDO needs to work fast and come up with local design penetrator to put the PA nuke bunkers at risk.
The threat has been there since 1986 after Brasstacks.
What has been done?
And the fuzes they developed for HSLD bombs were prone to misfire and take out the aircraft.
So don't do bokwas.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 00:49

Disagree completely with the thesis that is driven by some scientist leak etc, its just a usual speculative MOD insider leak & the capabilities of the SAAW vs SPICE 2000 drove the decision based on the seeker capability, not penetration.

The trainee accomodation was the main target. It doesn't appear to be an armory at all.
See:
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/hell- ... d607efb854

Image

One can however clearly see the result of the attack on the estimated trainee accommodation north of the main hall (Refer Target 1), where the building has been destroyed with deep ingestion marks and a lot of loose soil unearthed, the classic tell tale signs of a penetrator warhead entering the ground and making a mould of earth around it.

IMHO, the choice of the munition was not driven by the need to penetrate some hard target (i.e. armory) but plain & simple collateral damage avoidance + the fact that we had SPICE's originally procured for this purpose (hard target destruction) & they were available ONLY in this capability with us (penetrator version, we never purchased the Mk84 one) & only that they and Crystal Maze were sophisticated enough to cause the pinpoint low CEP destruction.


Why only SPICE 2000 and Crystal Maze, because they both have automated image recognition seekers and in case of CM, even fly-in capability.
You can program them to go to the target & then pick and choose the targets. This is very important for following points.

One, we were launching from far away. There was no certainty that we could guide the bombs in.

Second, the SPICE 2000s were the backup (fire & forget) to the main munition for the task. The Crystal Maze which would be guided in & hit exactly the targets needed.

Third, as the Crystal Maze had issues (cloud cover, line of sight), the backup SPICE attack was executed (or it was meant to be in parallel to the CM strike). And these fire & forget missiles again ID'ed the right targets.

Fourth, why not SAAW?

First seeker mode. ALL SAAW images show an opaque nose. This means a RF (MMW seeker). The MMW seeker can seek out radio contrast targets. However, once it reaches the general location (based on its internal FOG/MEMS INS), there is a risk that many MMW may hit the larger radio contrast target. If you see the targets Target 1 (Mujahid Hostel) is surrounded by buildings (2 storey Mosque), Training Shed, Madrassa Hall (the big target which was initially assumed to be the target etc). If you want to avoid this, you have to program the seeker for the specific radar profile. Where are you going to get these specific radio contrast details at short notice? Much easier to get optical pics (humint/optical sats).
There is the chance the SAAW will finally appear with an optical seeker. But at any rate the EO seeker has *not* been seen on any test articles.

Non seeker mode: You can alternatively use the SAAW based on GPS/INS coordinates alone. Now, the problem here is again the Mirage integration at short notice. 12x Mirages have upgraded INS sets to set your SAAW off well. The others don't. Now do you want your upgraded Mirages to act as SAAW strikers or handle the A2A escort and EW role? Clearly the latter. So again, challenges. In contrast, the SPICE 2000 and Crystal Maze were already integrated on the Mirage 2000s. The Crystal Maze gets around the INS issue by being flown into the targets. SPICE 2000 also gets off this issue by reaching the general area and doing automatic image recognition. Only that they didn't anticipate the drift would be so much, that a SPICE 2000 wouldn't even be fired.

Would the SAAW have worked?

Of course it would have. It would have *devastated* every target it hit (assuming no weapons failure etc). Problem though is getting surety that the bunch of SAAW you released hit ONLY the specific targets you want and would be accurate getting the INS fix from the non upgraded Mirages (the preferred bomb trucks).

This is not a problem at an AFB during war. A shower of SAAWS can be launched to hit closely packed infrastructure based on fixed GPS/INS coordinates from Su-30s and DARIN-2 Jaguars all of which have the latest SIGMA-95N INS/GPS.

Fifth, So, yes, the IAF chose the right munition for the task and it was driven by the need for precise ID & lock on after launch (SPICE) and limited by what it had (Penetrator version of SPICE 2000), which they then fused to get into the ground and cause maximum casualties via overpressure.

Image

Sixth, coming to the target defeat program, there are actually a *range* of weapons being developed for the IAF, each with different mission profiles and target sets.

These include HSLD, GP and now a bunch of PGM kits mated to those bombs. These are being driven not merely by indigenization imperatives, but by what *IAF has asked*. DRDO can't just magically get up and tell the AF what it needs, whether nuke bunkers etc.
If IAF wants DRDO to drop SAAW and focus on optically guided LOAL Spice 2000, they will have to do that. Fuzing from ARDE was a failure in the first set, but that is always a risk with our test infrastructure limitations. We can't simulate everything on the ground.

Right now, the focus is on fixing the gaps in inventory caused by aging designs at OFB which are either not being mass manufactured well or simply don't do the job well. IAF has asked for *basic stocks* of dumb bombs to be fixed first & foremost, that's the GP, OFAB replacement, HSLD type bombs. Stage 2 is the PGM program.

So basically there is no bokwaas or anything from the DRDO scientist (which, where?) here, just some speculation from MOD sources. IMHO, you have misread the target set to be an armory. The main target was where all the trainees were. It was just a standard building and SAAW was a perfect fit for it.

And the fact remains that a SAAW may be the weapon of choice next time. Or even dumb bombs or a KAB type munition.
Reason being the IAF now admits their conservative "avoid casualties at all cost" policy did not result in a propaganda win.

The target was anyhow isolated. They may have used more standard munitions for a bigger bang and completely wiped the hill top clean.

ramana wrote:Right after Balakot I saw a news report from Hyderabad about indigenous weapon capability and nothing more after that.

SAAW has a 100 kg Penetration warhead of which explosive is 20%.
So 20 kg blast if it goes through. Which it won't as the Balakot walls are quite thick.

The reason SPICE 2K penetrator model was used is the Balakot target was a former armory or blockhouse built during 1980s.

I have been saying since the first day after the hit.

SAAW would have bounced off the walls.
So its nonsense for that scientist to do bokwas and create a grouse that his design was not used.
His saying this actually undermines the SAAW use case.

SAAW will take out normal sangar/field fortifications/bunkers.
So try to integrate SAAW with IA/IAF helicopters to be below the threshold.

BTW DRDO guys were asked before Balakot and the right ordnance was tasked.
IAF does know how to select and use the right ordnance for defeating targets.

Now for my grouse.

DRDO has not looked at hard target defeat systematically.

The HSLD 250 and 450 were developed as replacement bombs for the 1000 Lb MC WWII vintage British bomb and a smaller one.
Both have cast steel case and are good for general targets but not aircraft hangers.
And the 450 HSLD design was found lacking and they had to develop a 500 kg GP bomb with tungsten pellets.
Whats going on?
The IAF has had the SPICE 2k kit since the early 2015s.
Obviously there needs to be a 2000 lb class bomb with DRDO.
Yet the DRDO 2000 lb GP bomb is more for blast than for PCB.
There is a Russian 2000 lb bomb. Is this a copy of that?
DRDO needs to work fast and come up with local design penetrator to put the PA nuke bunkers at risk.
The threat has been there since 1986 after Brasstacks.
What has been done?
And the fuzes they developed for HSLD bombs were prone to misfire and take out the aircraft.
So don't do bokwas.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby V_Raman » 01 May 2019 01:03

Interesting. Maybe India wanted to give plausible deniability for TSP to save face. That is why SPICE was used.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 01:12

It was driven by 3 things.

First, desire to not cross the border (as far as possible, to avoid provoking all out war) & also cause minimal civilian casualties, be precise etc. So choice of Crystal Maze (Popeye 2) and SPICE 2000 for precision building specific hits.
Second, choice of weapons at hand. SPICE 2000 warhead w/IAF is penetrator version, again with overpressure etc can cause casualties, mimimal shrapnel outside the building. In contrast, KAB-500/1500 Kr (EO versions) are devastating once launched. They will literally wipe the building off of the ground.
Third, aircraft integration. The Mirage 2000s (AFAIK) both upgraded & non, both have Crystal Maze & SPICE capability.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 02:03

SAAW CAD image - see shaping for optical seeker.

Image

The engineering drawing matches actual test bed articles

Image

Confirmation of seeker

Image

Warhead - can clearly penetrate any thick wall.
Image

Seeker closeup. Either indicates RF seeker OR current SAAW trials are purely INS/GPS based (very impressive then to have high accuracy)
Image

See # of SAAWs per airframe (Jaguar)

Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 02:14

So, a non upgrade Mirage 2000 with SAAWs could field upto 16x SAAWs assuming 2x outer pylons with 1x CCM, 1x EW pod, and centerline pylon having a fuel tank. There would be a carrier pylon on the two inboard ones on each wing, and carrying up to 16x SAAWs. The issue then comes of stores separation, flutter tests, CFD work for drag etc with such a heavy payload. Right on eve of a strike? And then there is the INS-GPS issue with SAAW likely (same as SPICE) having better navigation coordinates due to SATCOM than the onboard mid-80's (but still quite accurate) INS on the Mirage 2000 H/TH. Some seven years back, https://www.geospatialworld.net/news/dr ... ss-module/

This is the reason why if say 12x Mirage 2000s of which 4, 8 were strikers, had released SAAWs, a shower of 32-64x SAAWs would have literally wiped off each of those buildings off of the map. But for that to happen, you'd need 8x Mirage 2000s qualified for the task, and such a large quantity of bombs. If you are using a handful of bombs, better go for the ones with automatic target recognition and LOAL modes.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 02:32

Apart from SAAW which are the other 2 options the IAF had (ignoring cost).

From the Su-30 MKI. KAB-500 Kr (KAB 1500Kr would be way overkill) to replace the SPICE2000 & the KH-59ME to replace the Crystal Maze/Popeye 2.

Both limited to daylight operation. No IIR seekers. Only CCD, daylight optics.

I leave it to you guys to dig up the specific details and see how devastating these systems are... forget collateral damage, if one misses. It'll take out a big chunk out of whatever it hits.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 01 May 2019 03:11

Karan M wrote:I leave it to you guys to dig up the specific details and see how devastating these systems are... forget collateral damage, if one misses. It'll take out a big chunk out of whatever it hits.

Perhaps the lesson to be learnt is not to worry about collateral damage. The pakis certainly didn't. They went straight for an IA Bgd. HQ with all they'd got although they did not manage to hit anything. Copius amounts of damage in and around the structures in balakot would have made the later optics battle unnecessary.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 03:14

Agree completely!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 01 May 2019 03:26

I'm actually wondering what exactly their plan was if one of the bombs had hit an IA target and caused casualties. If the Pulwama attack can lead to an IAF strike inside KPK, a PAF bomb falling on Indian soldiers would immediately lead to an all out war. What were these geniuses going to do then? Yet another example of tactical brilliance by the PA jarnails trying to start a war when ordinary abduls can't even afford tomatoes.

On the other hand if the IAF is asked to carry out strikes as a retaliation in the future, they can use this precedent set by the pakis themselves to bomb the shit out of PA targets close to the LoC and kill uniformed jihadis instead of bothering to go in deep and take risks to kill the non-uniformed ones. Because they already know what the paki response is going to be. Nothing to be gained by holding back then.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 03:30

I do not think the Pak gernails had any intention of striking the IA's Bde HQ. They knew they would be detected before they crossed and intercepted right after they crossed. Their goal was to draw out IAF fighters into Pakistani airspace. Thus the reason for their erroneous claim that they shot down an IAF Su-30MKI. The PAF had to reclaim lost honor.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 01 May 2019 03:31

Rakesh wrote:I do not think the Pak gernails had any intention of striking the IA's Bde HQ. They knew they would be detected before they crossed and intercepted right after they crossed. Their goal was to draw out IAF fighters into Pakistan airspace. Thus the reason for their erroneous claim that they shot down an IAF Su-30MKI. The PAF had to reclaim lost honor.

Rakesh, the IA itself claimed one bomb fell very close to a Bgd. HQ.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 May 2019 03:39

Saar, I know. But their main goal was to draw out IAF fighters. Taking out a Bde HQ would have been icing on the cake.

Striking an IA Bde HQ legitimizes that Pakistan indeed did host JeM Camps at Balakot. What was the point of a retaliation strike if - as per their own admission - the IAF only struck trees? Balakot hurt their H&D and the PAF's even more. The PAF protects their airspace zealously or so they tell their populace. When their chaddi was pulled down by the IAF, they had no other option but to conduct a strike and draw IAF fighters into Pakistani airspace. Tit-for-Tat. Question of their manhood after all.

IAF did strike. So PAF has to do strike as well.

Similar past history with them.

India did five nuclear tests, so Pakistan will do six :)

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 May 2019 03:53

IA said that one bomb fell very close to the Bdge HQ.
Not claim.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 May 2019 03:58

KaranM Take a look at this article published 30 April 2019 from Hyderabad.

viewtopic.php?p=2348098#p2348098

SAAW to be ready in 2020.

Y I Patel
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 01 May 2019 04:51

Babaji posted a beautiful picture of a snow-covered mountain range and accompanied it with an ode where he describes Kashmir as "mere desh ka dipt lalat". That is Mahakavi Tulsidas level vocab right there - he called Kashmir the luminous forehead of his country. The poem goes on to state that the atrocities perpetrated on Kashmir will be avenged, and ...

"The bells of Sharada's Temple will ring again"

:shock:

I would dearly love to know where that beautiful picture was taken...

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 10:45

ramana wrote:KaranM Take a look at this article published 30 April 2019 from Hyderabad.

viewtopic.php?p=2348098#p2348098

SAAW to be ready in 2020.


Two things,

First, if this article us correct, this is very big news. Because, BDA assessment means optical seeker and datalink back to launch aircraft. Could also explain why IAF wanted this vs Spice and that DRDO does have seeker equipped test articles available. Also means, DRDO has made huge strides in automated target recognition via optical seekers in which they were supposed to be at low TRL! This was supposedly the only thing lacking in the Indian subsystem arsenal. There is even an analysis by an ex head ADE, which makes this claim, and I was wondering how up to date was the information within.

If this article is true, this has huge ramifications for our PGM effort and completely upends public information so far released about our PGM program.

Second, it's pretty common in even our context, to deploy in development systems provided they have demonstrated a level of maturity. Netra at Balakot was IOC, 3D CAR in Parakram, Pinaka at Kargil were all pre induction LSP/test articles.
So per se, even if SAAW is still in development for it to be used, is quite possible if it's done very well in tests and was available in requisite numbers.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 May 2019 10:46

nachiket wrote:I'm actually wondering what exactly their plan was if one of the bombs had hit an IA target and caused casualties. If the Pulwama attack can lead to an IAF strike inside KPK, a PAF bomb falling on Indian soldiers would immediately lead to an all out war. What were these geniuses going to do then? Yet another example of tactical brilliance by the PA jarnails trying to start a war when ordinary abduls can't even afford tomatoes.

On the other hand if the IAF is asked to carry out strikes as a retaliation in the future, they can use this precedent set by the pakis themselves to bomb the shit out of PA targets close to the LoC and kill uniformed jihadis instead of bothering to go in deep and take risks to kill the non-uniformed ones. Because they already know what the paki response is going to be. Nothing to be gained by holding back then.

They do not belive India has the capability or guts to go war after they have got Atami Thakt.This has been built up by our past Govt's kid gloves policy w.r.t Pakistan

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2019 11:23

IMHO the strike was a proper one. The blast radius of a large LGB is such that casualties are a given if it lands in close proximity to the target. They wanted to have it "all". Hit Brigade HQ, down an IAF fighter. At lowest risk & max standoff ranges possible.

Rakesh wrote:Saar, I know. But their main goal was to draw out IAF fighters. Taking out a Bde HQ would have been icing on the cake.

Striking an IA Bde HQ legitimizes that Pakistan indeed did host JeM Camps at Balakot. What was the point of a retaliation strike if - as per their own admission - the IAF only struck trees? Balakot hurt their H&D and the PAF's even more. The PAF protects their airspace zealously or so they tell their populace. When their chaddi was pulled down by the IAF, they had no other option but to conduct a strike and draw IAF fighters into Pakistani airspace. Tit-for-Tat. Question of their manhood after all.

IAF did strike. So PAF has to do strike as well.

Similar past history with them.

India did five nuclear tests, so Pakistan will do six :)

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 01 May 2019 17:03

The question is "what were the pakis thinking?"

They were prepared to attack our IA brigade HQ within a day of our attack .... Did they even weigh the options?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 01 May 2019 17:19

Aditya G wrote:The question is "what were the pakis thinking?"

They were prepared to attack our IA brigade HQ within a day of our attack .... Did they even weigh the options?


The whole thing was a PR stunt. They dropped the bombs in an open field, where they knew no one will be hurt. They did so in daylight to make sure.

Most facts point towards IAF doing the same thing. IAF hit the training camp in such a way, that they proved they could have hit it, but missed by intention. Point was not to destroy any infrastructure, just to drive home a point that India is calling off the nuclear bluff. India can start a war, which will humiliate the PA army, by taking some territory, without posing an existential threat to land of the pure.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 May 2019 17:23

Rishirishi wrote:
Aditya G wrote:The question is "what were the pakis thinking?"

They were prepared to attack our IA brigade HQ within a day of our attack .... Did they even weigh the options?


The whole thing was a PR stunt. They dropped the bombs in an open field, where they knew no one will be hurt. They did so in daylight to make sure.

Most facts point towards IAF doing the same thing. IAF hit the training camp in such a way, that they proved they could have hit it, but missed by intention. Point was not to destroy any infrastructure, just to drive home a point that India is calling off the nuclear bluff. India can start a war, which will humiliate the PA army, by taking some territory, without posing an existential threat to land of the pure.


What facts, Pakistan would have taken all journalists to Balakot if there was nothing to hide. You forget Pulwama, H&D is not everything, we needed to hit JEM and Handlers ISI hard so that some further attacks after Pulwama had to be stopped.

PAF rushed an operation for H&D purposes, they wanted to hit the IAF brigade HQ, they just learnt a lot PGM's dont work int he real world


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