Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

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nam
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 04 May 2019 13:33

Kashi wrote:
SSridhar wrote:It knows that 'powers that be' would intervene before it becomes too bad for itself. But, that would be enough to achieve its 'goals' and also claim to the Pakistani abduls that India was defeated yet again.


This is exactly the narrative they are going to town with. The question is how does GoI plan to game this?


All we have to do it give disproportionate response on the LoC for every PA act. What story they spin for their mango abduls is not our concern.

It is not easy to break a punching bag. So we use it, as it should it be. For punching.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 04 May 2019 14:04

nam wrote:It is not easy to break a punching bag. So we use it, as it should it be. For punching.


That metaphorical punching bag is the myth of invincibility that the fauj has built among an equally delusional population. Repeatedly punching that bag should not include letting them off the hook time and again.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 04 May 2019 15:25

Kashi wrote:
nam wrote:It is not easy to break a punching bag. So we use it, as it should it be. For punching.


That metaphorical punching bag is the myth of invincibility that the fauj has built among an equally delusional population. Repeatedly punching that bag should not include letting them off the hook time and again.


The thing is as we become a powerful nation, we need our own bush wars. For that we need a bush and that bush is PA. Wars allow tech development. Otherwise we will become another China.

We don't want to solve the Pak problem, but need to manage it.. by literally beating the bush.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 May 2019 01:56

Wing Commander Abhinandan discharged from hospital, here's the video clipping:

https://twitter.com/MajorPoonia/status/ ... 12481?s=19

Welcome back Fighter
Wg Cdr Abhinandan Varthaman has been discharged from hospital,declared fit to resume duties.
Buddy,Best Wishes,Fly high and fly with same passion and fighting spirit..Cheers
Jai Hind @IAF_MCC https://t.co/kTzHJacRkO

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Haridas » 05 May 2019 05:09

nachiket wrote:Perhaps OT, but this whole episode made me wish that we still had some Foxbats flying which could have been sent in just to cause sonic booms over Isloo and Pindi both during the Balakot strikes and afterwards when the airspace was shut down. Would have caused all kinds of chaos and confusion and probably given Ghafoor a heart attack.

Foxbat is beyond AIM120 reach?

Boom over Pindi was when PAF was impotent wrt Foxbat.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sarang » 05 May 2019 10:15

s

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 05 May 2019 11:39

Haridas wrote:
nachiket wrote:Perhaps OT, but this whole episode made me wish that we still had some Foxbats flying which could have been sent in just to cause sonic booms over Isloo and Pindi both during the Balakot strikes and afterwards when the airspace was shut down. Would have caused all kinds of chaos and confusion and probably given Ghafoor a heart attack.

Foxbat is beyond AIM120 reach?

Boom over Pindi was when PAF was impotent wrt Foxbat.


This pilot scored both the first US F-16 Kill and the first kill for the AIM-120 AMRAAM

At approximately three nautical miles, at fifteen degrees nose high and fifteen degrees right bank North locked up the MiG-25 and fired an AMRAAM, which guided to impact and totally destroyed the Russian built Foxbat

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 05 May 2019 16:13

A mig25 is not immune to aams but if flown at the right tactical profile is very difficult to acquire and lock

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 05 May 2019 21:08

I don't know how many of you've read this interview of Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji who's an ex-Mig-25 pilot and seems to have quite a lot of flying on it.

https://hushkit.net/2018/12/12/loneliness-at-mach-3-interview-with-a-mig-25-foxbat-pilot/

Do read.

In fact, do read other interviews of pilots from various nations about the fighters they've flown and flown against. And their impression.

There is on my an ex-IAF Mig-27 pilot as well:

https://hushkit.net/2018/08/15/flying-and-fighting-in-the-mig-27-interview-with-a-mig-pilot/

The reason I'm linking these interviews is because it gives you an perspective which 99.9% of us cannot get. Simply because we don't have access to someone from IAF who's flown these fighters. Also, on discussion forums, we tend to be quite black & white about fighters and their capabilities. Something which I put down to lack of 360 degree information about the system. And because we don't know how these planes have actually behaved in operational scenarios.

For example, almost all of us have impression about Mig-25 from western sources. And these sources tend to be biased or look at a system from their perspective. Not from the nation who made them or the pilots who flew them.

The interview with Mig-25 pilots is a case in point - IMO, this is about the only source which talks about how the aircraft flew and behaved. And while it highlights operational challenges, it speaks well about the aircraft. Now, this is not the impression you get after reading western (mainly US) sources.

For example, no one will say this about Mig-25 apart from those who've actually flown the bird for decades:

“A 20-ton aircraft that carries 20 tons of fuel, flies in the stratosphere, cruises at Mach 2.5 in minimum afterburner and exceeds Mach 3.0 with ease when required, what can one say ? It was an awesome aeroplane. The fact that the ventral fuel tank was one MiG-23 (equivalent in fuel) under the belly, speaks for itself.”


Looking at the two-seat Mig-25 trainer, this would've never come to our mind, at-least, not mine. Do look-up the Mig-25 trainer image to understand what the pilot is saying:

The two-seater (or Trainer version) was unique. It is the only aircraft I know (other than the Tiger Moth, I guess) where the trainee sits in the rear seat. The design, to my mind, was an aeronautical engineering masterpiece. To put it rather simplistically, the camera block was removed from a single-seater and a cockpit created in that space. The canopy, although the same as the other cockpit, appeared ‘flushed’ with the nose of the fuselage, as viewed from the rear cockpit. Thus the trainee felt he was sitting in a single-seater when in the trainer. The transition to going ‘solo’ was a piece of cake


And this bit of Soviet design excellence:

Her systems and auto-pilot were coupled to provide an optimised “Little m=1” (remember the formula for maximum range ?). So, as the fuel depleted she would keep climbing (cruise climb) and a mission commenced at (say) 19.5 kms altitude would terminate around 22 kms with no change of throttle position. The climb was so gradual over the period of time and distance that it did not affect the photography.”


And finally, on intercepting a Mig-25:

“Certainly we were detectable by radar, provided you were expecting us. The Foxbat operated covertly, seen just as a blip on the radar amongst other flying aircraft, but one blip would suddenly disappear. In normal ground radar settings the Foxbat generally operates at the highest fringes of the radar lobe, with the ingress and egress (through the radar lobe) often allowing one or two blips for the radar controller to perceive. Low transition times (because of the high speed) did not provide adequate reaction time to scramble fighters; and other than a pure head-on interception with look-up / shoot-up capability (from, say, 40,000 ft), the Foxbat could survive any fighter interception.


Do read the interviews for more details.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 May 2019 00:38

there was a good article on how one foxbat was modified in india to photograph a solar eclipse.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 06 May 2019 09:44

Haridas wrote:
nachiket wrote:Perhaps OT, but this whole episode made me wish that we still had some Foxbats flying which could have been sent in just to cause sonic booms over Isloo and Pindi both during the Balakot strikes and afterwards when the airspace was shut down. Would have caused all kinds of chaos and confusion and probably given Ghafoor a heart attack.

Foxbat is beyond AIM120 reach?

Boom over Pindi was when PAF was impotent wrt Foxbat.

What kind of AEW and radar support did the US and it's allies have over Iraqi airspace to be able to shoot down that foxbat? Does TSP enjoy that kind of overwhelming sensor superiority over the IAF?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 May 2019 11:06

rohitvats wrote:I don't know how many of you've read this interview of Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji who's an ex-Mig-25 pilot and seems to have quite a lot of flying on it.

https://hushkit.net/2018/12/12/loneliness-at-mach-3-interview-with-a-mig-25-foxbat-pilot/



Interesting quote from this article

A bullock cart, we would joke. She was heavy but responsive. Because of the weight there was a lot of inertia, requiring anticipation. To the ab-initio the aircraft would wallow on approach, if pilot anticipation and control input were not timely. She was steady as a rock during the climb and its stated mission profile. The two-seater was aerobatic and we did rolls, barrel rolls and rolls-off-the-top. The loop was prohibited because there was apparently inadequate elevator available to pull her through the manoeuvre. Ground handling was outstanding.


The JF-17 also never completes a loop, does it also suffer from similar restrictions although a much lighter aircraft.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi » 07 May 2019 10:03

Denel H4 SoW debris south of Mirpur city near Jhelum (diff from the one reported in Bhimber)

https://twitter.com/mubeen500/status/11 ... 96768?s=20

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 07 May 2019 10:33

Haridas wrote:Foxbat is beyond AIM120 reach?

Boom over Pindi was when PAF was impotent wrt Foxbat.

Saar pakis could not react in time to intercept the M2k's which fly much lower and slower than the Foxbats. By the time F-16's are in position to take a shot the Foxbat would already be on its way back at high speed. Only thing to worry about would be if any of their new SAMs are capable of shooting down a high flying target like that.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2019 11:25

Rishi wrote:Denel H4 SoW debris south of Mirpur city near Jhelum (diff from the one reported in Bhimber)

https://twitter.com/mubeen500/status/11 ... 96768?s=20


So all the mirage H4(Pakis used to call this as Raad) failed, it was the LGB's launched by F-16 strike package which came close to the Brigade HQ. Contrast this with Balakot, now wonder PAF closed thier Aerospace for a month.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 07 May 2019 11:38

Even factoring in that, immediately post Balakot strike, they had a lot more patrols up in the air (even AWACS) and their ground based radars would also be kept on for a longer time, they would need huge loads of luck for any hope of an intercept.

Even today they don't have even fraction of capabilities which the US forces had during the gulf war

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi » 07 May 2019 12:01

Aditya_V wrote:
Rishi wrote:Denel H4 SoW debris south of Mirpur city near Jhelum (diff from the one reported in Bhimber)

https://twitter.com/mubeen500/status/11 ... 96768?s=20


So all the mirage H4(Pakis used to call this as Raad) failed, it was the LGB's launched by F-16 strike package which came close to the Brigade HQ. Contrast this with Balakot, now wonder PAF closed thier Aerospace for a month.


Its not clear. Those are the boosters of the glide bombs. Not the bombs themselves. No youtube vids on how thede work so can't say they failed

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 07 May 2019 12:40

Its part of the Denel Raptor II

http://www.deneldynamics.co.za/products/missiles/stand-off-weapons/raptor-ii

The IAF claimed 11 of these missed the targets by a large margin, it was the F-16 LGB's which came close

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 07 May 2019 18:10

Cain Marko wrote:
Haridas wrote:Foxbat is beyond AIM120 reach? Boom over Pindi was when PAF was impotent wrt Foxbat.


What kind of AEW and radar support did the US and it's allies have over Iraqi airspace to be able to shoot down that foxbat? Does TSP enjoy that kind of overwhelming sensor superiority over the IAF?


Iraqi Air Force was using Mig-25 as a standard interceptor. Not a high altitude reconnaissance plane. Therein lies the difference. As the article linked by me says, only way to shoot down a Mig-25 flying at 75,000+ feet was a front-on approach, with the enemy fighter at 40,000 feet with good look-up and shoot-up capability.

Technically, nothing is impossible. PAF would've to set-up an ambush with multiple planes and alert radar operators. Not to forget, requisite amount of time. They simply didn't have enough reaction time.

Don't forget, the Russians did manage to lock-on to a SR-71 using Mig-31 Foxhound. It required very careful planning and positioning of I think 04 Mig-31 at appropriate height and time. Apart from ground radars, Mig-31 itself had a powerful radar. Not to mention the massive, AA-9 'AMOS' missile.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 07 May 2019 22:04

Aditya_V wrote:
Rishi wrote:Denel H4 SoW debris south of Mirpur city near Jhelum (diff from the one reported in Bhimber)

https://twitter.com/mubeen500/status/11 ... 96768?s=20


So all the mirage H4(Pakis used to call this as Raad) failed, it was the LGB's launched by F-16 strike package which came close to the Brigade HQ. Contrast this with Balakot, now wonder PAF closed thier Aerospace for a month.


Can we show these two places on a map?

And approximate launch point?

Gagan you are the whiz for such Google maps.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 08 May 2019 04:41

A question to the gurus here.

How many of the IAF Mirages can launch the MICA?
How many PAF f-16 can launch the AIM 120c-5? is it only the C and D versions?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 May 2019 05:30

Rishirishi wrote:A question to the gurus here.

How many of the IAF Mirages can launch the MICA?
How many PAF f-16 can launch the AIM 120c-5? is it only the C and D versions?

All the upgraded Mirage 2000s can launch the MICA.

All the upgraded PAF F-16s can launch the AIM-120C-5.

And the 18 Block 50/52s by default will also fire the AIM-120C-5 as well.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 May 2019 05:34

Unfortunately the M2k upgrade is running slow and we only have a handful of them. How many of the older F-16's did they upgrade? I remember 36 being the number but I'm not sure.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 May 2019 05:48

They upgraded all of them.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Prem » 08 May 2019 11:37

Air Force looks at buying advanced 'bunker buster' version of Spice-2000 bombs
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ai ... 508111148/

- Air Force looks at buying advanced 'bunker buster' version of Spice-2000 bombs. ... "The IAF is now planning to acquire the bunker buster or the building destroyer version with Mark 84 warhead which can decimate targeted buildings," government sources told ANI.


Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudhan » 08 May 2019 13:36

From Francesca Marino

Balakot camp: Pakistan’s and Its Deception Games

BALAKOT: MORE DETAILS REVEALED

Lots of info from her Sources. Her inputs from her sources align with Smt. Sitharaman's statement that the guided tour of Balakot by Ghafool did not include the Mujahid hostel..

Do read

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 May 2019 18:38


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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 08 May 2019 19:12

Rakesh wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:A question to the gurus here.

How many of the IAF Mirages can launch the MICA?
How many PAF f-16 can launch the AIM 120c-5? is it only the C and D versions?

All the upgraded Mirage 2000s can launch the MICA.

All the upgraded PAF F-16s can launch the AIM-120C-5.

And the 18 Block 50/52s by default will also fire the AIM-120C-5 as well.


If the IAF claims that F16D when down thats 17 Block 50/52 now left

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 08 May 2019 20:32

sudhan wrote:From Francesca Marino

Balakot camp: Pakistan’s and Its Deception Games...

Do read


Very good. And of course, no one in this forum really doubted the strikes or their success. But nice to see confirmation from a non-Indian source. The latter for whatever reason, seem to question or doubt the incident.

One can only be disappointed at the figures of 130-170 terrorists eliminated. Is there any source which indicates that the number is much higher? Because there is reason to believe it was higher!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudhan » 08 May 2019 20:39

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
sudhan wrote:From Francesca Marino

Balakot camp: Pakistan’s and Its Deception Games...

Do read


Very good. And of course, no one in this forum really doubted the strikes or their success. But nice to see confirmation from a non-Indian source. The latter for whatever reason, seem to question or doubt the incident.

One can only be disappointed at the figures of 130-170 terrorists eliminated. Is there any source which indicates that the number is much higher? Because there is reason to believe it was higher!


No other reliable source of info in the public domain (afaik). As per her sources 11 trainers have been dispatched, that is definitely valuable.

Hope her source stays safe..

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 08 May 2019 20:43

twitter

Italian journalist Francesca Marino pieces together an investigative account of #IAF’s #Balacot strike, says 130-170 #JaisheMohammed terrorists & several Pak army trainers were killed in the strike on Feb 26. Read! ⁦@OfficialDGISPR⁩



BALAKOT: MORE DETAILS REVEALED

BALAKOT: MORE DETAILS REVEALED


07-May-2019

Despite Pakistan’s efforts to deceive the world on the Indian airstrikes on the Jaish-e-Muhammad camp, small details of what happened in Balakot in the wee hours of February 26 and thereafter have kept trickling in from my source. This article is an attempt to piece together all the informations I gathered and to fill the gaps into what it has become the jigsaw puzzle of the Balakot strike.

As it is well known now, the IAF strike was carried out at around 3.30 am. According to my informations, an Army unit, from their camp in Shinkiari, arrived at the location of the strike on February 26 at around 6 am, two and a half hours later. Shinkari is around 20 kms away from Balakot, and the Army unit would have taken around 35-40 minutes to reach the location from where the climb to the camp begins. Incidentally, Shinkiari is also a base of the Pakistan Army, with the Junior Leaders Academy (JLA) located there. Immediately after the Army unit arrival, the injured were taken to a Harkat-ul-Mujahideen camp, located in Shinkiari and treated by Pakistan Army doctors. Local sources say around 45 persons are still undergoing treatment in this camp, while around 20 have died during treatment due to serious injuries. Those who have recovered are still in custody of the Army and have not been discharged. Based on the different inputs that have been gathered over the last several weeks through my contact, it can now also be safely said that the impact of the strike immediately killed a large number of JeM cadres. The numbers estimated have ranged from 130-170, including those who have died during treatment. Those killed included 11 trainers, ranging from bomb makers to those imparting weapons training. Two of these trainers were from Afghanistan. To prevent news on the fatalities leaking through statements of family members of cadres, a group of JeM members also visited the families of those killed and handed over cash compensation to them. Adjacent to the Blue Pine Hotel, located on the foothill from where one starts the trek for the JeM camp, is a freshly painted signboard that indicates the presence of the Taleem-ul-Quran on the hilltop. Unlike the earlier board, all links to JeM leader and now internationally proscribed terrorist Masood Azhar has been removed. The camp area is still under the control of the Army, with a Captain rank officer of the Mujahid battalion in command. The access to the dust track leading to the camp is still restricted, even to the local police. Apart from a few children and 3-4 teachers, the camp has been cleared of any traces of it earlier being a JeM camp. Meanwhile, inhabitants of Bisian township, near the JeM camp, still discuss of some locals having noticed vehicles dumping rubble in the Kunhar River during the first night after the strike. There is also talk about the JeM leadership having assured its cadres that the group will take its revenge when the time is ripe.

Francesca Marino

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 May 2019 20:52

Aditya_V wrote:If the IAF claims that F16D when down thats 17 Block 50/52 now left

The F-16 that went down was reportedly from No.19 Sherdils Squadron, operating ex-Jordanian Air Force F-16 A/Bs.

However in the absence of any wreckage, it is impossible to determine whether it was a F-16B or a F-16D.

The IAF will know via electronic signatures. But that will be revealing your hand.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 May 2019 20:53

Varoon Shekhar wrote:......

One can only be disappointed at the figures of 130-170 terrorists eliminated. Is there any source which indicates that the number is much higher? Because there is reason to believe it was higher!


Indian sources said they had call records of over 300 cell phone number emanating from Balakot and no repeat calls from those numbers after that early morning attack. Charitable is every terrorist had 2 cell phones and that could account for the lower number.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 May 2019 20:54

Rakesh, We should claim its a F16D as it was the strike package pathfinder.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 May 2019 21:05

Ok Ramana-ji. I agree on the strike package pathfinder as well, as it was the Squadron CO that was shot down....

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 6906494976 ---> Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Commander Hyder Shahbaz Ali, the CO of PAF's 19th Squadron "Sherdils". This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched. Shahzaz was actually Shahbaz.

Image

Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby disha » 08 May 2019 21:14

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
One can only be disappointed at the figures of 130-170 terrorists eliminated. Is there any source which indicates that the number is much higher? Because there is reason to believe it was higher!


So Bakis officially now acknowledge only 130-170 from earlier ZERO & we are disappointed!

I will tell you: the number is between 390-510.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 08 May 2019 21:26

Disha, thanks that's good news. "Disappointed' because in this forum (not the Pakistani or other sites) figures of 300-700 have been mentioned. Still positive if the lower figure of the Italian reporter is closer to the correct one.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudhan » 08 May 2019 21:47

disha wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:
One can only be disappointed at the figures of 130-170 terrorists eliminated. Is there any source which indicates that the number is much higher? Because there is reason to believe it was higher!


So Bakis officially now acknowledge only 130-170 from earlier ZERO & we are disappointed!

I will tell you: the number is between 390-510.


Bakis officially acknowledge nothing, the numbers 130-170 are from Francesca Marino..

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi » 08 May 2019 22:05

Rakesh wrote:Ok Ramana-ji. I agree on the strike package pathfinder as well, as it was the Squadron CO that was shot down....

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 6906494976 ---> Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Commander Hyder Shahbaz Ali, the CO of PAF's 19th Squadron "Sherdils". This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched. Shahzaz was actually Shahbaz.


This originated from someone on BRF a few weeks ago

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 May 2019 22:06

Even Sameer Joshi indicates its this gent.


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