MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

[JTull]

You don't expect those Western "experts" to admit that the pride of their air forces was shot down by a "Russian junk" being flown by an SDRE would you?

I went through the US news sources - they are not reporting the F16 shoot down. Its tough love. But part of it is how we handled the news cycle. But no western media has written about it. Perhaps after the evidence of 120C they should.

They will grudgingly admit it when they realise that LM is unlikely to win the orders after this fiasco.

OTOH, this will have far reaching implications for PAF and their policy of acquiring older airframes.

[Khalsa]

Newbie question.. Does the Kopyo radar go in the Mig 21 Nose Cone or is carried on a pod?

Nose cone Sir.

[Austin]

Do the Bisons carry any BVR anymore, since the R-77s have reportedly turned out to be duds and MKI now are seen only with R-27s?

They carry the R-77 and R-73

This is from Aero India 2019 , Walk Past the Bison by Sandeep Unnithan

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 9127708672

[Austin]

From the book 50 years of Mig-21 with the IAF

My Life with the Mig-21 , Air Commodore SS Tyagi has the distinction of flying the max number of sorties and logging the maximum number of flying hours with the Mig-21 in IAF , Tyagi Flew total number of 4003:45 hrs in 6316 sorties

[Austin]

Sorry about the bad scan quality its a quick click will try and get the Bison Program as well which is quite detailed in that book

[Khalsa]

SDRE from the deepest and darkest of South India in Chennai flying an outdated relic from the 1960s sent a russkie AAM up the tight arsed tail pipe of a scion of one of Pakiland’s most TFTA of warrior families. Think about that!

Navjot Sidhu should think a little, perhaps this man caused Pakistan to decide not to prosecute war. If he did lock on to that F 16 and fire, he may have demonstrated what a formidable battle Pakistan was facing starting with the lowly MiG 21. Otherwise it would be Panjab that could have faced Pakistani tanks.

I am amazed at your ability to derive pleasure of comparing skin tones and religion and state.
Never has any son of Punjab in the army, air force or navy ever fought for Punjab. Their hand salutes the flag, not the state.
Stop showing how deep the divisions of race may actually lie in our home.

My father was in the army and he served and put his best into it with keralites, assamese and all and never did once did he show his Punjabiyaat to them.

Now .... second point and the most important point. Understand this point very carefully because this where many of the hate crimes against an entire society begin.

Neither was Beant Singh (who assasinated Indira Gandhi) a sole rep for Sikhs and Punjab.
Nor is Sidhu. He can hug Bajwa all he wants... hell I am happy to tear up his passport in case the other side gives him a new one. Good riddance.
SIdhu has been a downright idiot IMHO from the day he left cricket because when he was playing we did not have to hear his stupidity.
Then Hindustan made him god of comedy. The guy has IQ below my german shephard.

But you dare not ever class the rest of any society by the doings of a single man.

We are BRFites here,
Vidya
Vinamrata
Veerta


Follow the motto at all times.

[Singha]

34km ceiling
Even 25km is 75000feet only the foxhounds foxbats sr71 play in such areas

Respect to the old war dog machine and Marshal Tyagi

[ks_sachin]

Navjot Sidhu should think a little, perhaps this man caused Pakistan to decide not to prosecute war. If he did lock on to that F 16 and fire, he may have demonstrated what a formidable battle Pakistan was facing starting with the lowly MiG 21. Otherwise it would be Panjab that could have faced Pakistani tanks.

I am amazed at your ability to derive pleasure of comparing skin tones and religion and state.

....

Follow the motto at all times.

Amen...

[Austin]

Photo of Mig-21 BISON with ELTA 8222 external Jamming Pod, It is not know if Wing Com Varthaman's Bison carried the External Jamming Pod on this Intercept Mission or the effectiveness of EL 8222 Jammers against AMRAAM C-5 class missile.



More details on this from a FB Page I came across

https://www.facebook.com/shatrujeet009/ ... 533660550/

[Austin]

Does EL 8222 have ability to jam modern AMRAAM C-5 class missile , I suppose AMRAAM will have LOJ feature built in ......is this a DRFM type jammer

Karan ?

[Austin]

Radar imagery confirms 4 buildings in Jaish madrasa were hit, says official

[manjgu]

8222 is a DRFm jammer ...though not sure if it can jam 120c type and under what conditions.

[A_Gupta]

https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/c ... 4-results/
Cope India: when India’s Russian jets achieved a surprising 9:1 kill ratio against U.S. F-15s

[Manish_P]

From the book 50 years of Mig-21 with the IAF

My Life with the Mig-21 , Air Commodore SS Tyagi has the distinction of flying the max number of sorties and logging the maximum number of flying hours with the Mig-21 in IAF , Tyagi Flew total number of 4003:45 hrs in 6316 sorties

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing this interview.

[habal]

If somebody wanted a neutral source for f16 pilots crash

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019030210 ... t-lynched/

[Rahul M]

Shoddy article, claims 2 Indian jets downed.

[habal]

proof reading error, didn't see that. There was absolutely no need for them to have inserted that ispr rubbish.

[Austin]

Mig-21 Bison



https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 3159533568

[arun]

X Posted from the Terroristan thread.

US seeks information on potential misuse of F-16 by Pakistan.

While the exact details of the restrictions were discussed in a closed-door session, and thus remains classified, Miller then broadly outlined some of the restrictions, which he said were over a "dozen new and unprecedented elements" of the security plan for Pakistan.

Miller then told lawmakers that the security provisions also include semi-annual inventories of all F-16 aircraft equipment and munitions, including related technical data, and more frequent inventories for other systems. (It is official - Terroristan air force chief, the base commander at Chaklala and other fields that F-16's operate from and the pilots flying them have to bend in line holding the vaseleine jar atleast two times every year )

"There is a two-man rule, so to speak, for access to this equipment and restricted areas, and F-16 flights outside of Pakistan or participation in exercises and operations with third nations must be approved in advance by the United States government ," the then top State Department official said, according to the transcripts of the hearing.

A more extensive excerpt from Statement of John Hillen, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Political Military Affairs, U.S. Department of State to the Committee on International Relations of the US House of Representatives dating to 20 July 2006.

It will be interesting to see if the “Semiannual inventories of all F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions” by the US will show an F16 and AMRAAM missing from the inventory and this information actually makes it to the public domain despite non disclosure stipulations thereby confirming that India downed an F16:

The Administration very carefully considered the potential risk of diversion of United States technology and equipment, and we are taking appropriate steps to minimize those risks. Furthermore, the Government of Pakistan, including the Pakistan Air Force, has been extremely cooperative in responding to our concerns on the security of aircraft and technology.

I think we will discuss this in detail in the closed session further, but I would like to note a few things. First of all, the security plan greatly exceeds United States Air Force standards for our own security of these weapon systems. I know all the Members have great respect for the way in which our Air Force protects its security, but I would also like to highlight nearly a dozen new and unprecedented elements of the security plan for Pakistan.

We, of course, have had a U.S. Government security site survey of their bases and facilities. We have put into the deal that they must comply with the approved security plans for their F–16 related bases and facilities before we will release any systems in the sale. We will have a U.S. presence to monitor compliance with the security plan requirements. A very enhanced end-use monitoring program. Semiannual inventories of all F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions, including related technical data. More frequent inventories for other systems. There are separate and distinct and restricted areas for the F–16 aircraft equipment and munitions. And no mixing with third-country origin aircraft equipment and munitions, and all of this will be monitored. Routine access to F–16 aircraft and munitions is in restricted areas and limited to Pakistan Air Force personnel that are preapproved for such. There is a two-man rule, so to speak, for access to this equipment and restricted areas. And F–16 flights outside of Pakistan and participation in exercises and operations with third nations must be approved in advance by the United States Government. The maintenance is limited to remove and replace line replaceable units and shop replaceable units. And Pakistani Air Force personnel must perform the maintenance. No Pakistan contractors, industry, or third-country nationals. We have also mandated that the F–16 maintenance and parts storage must be in dedicated facilities. Also part of the overall surveillance plan.

From here:

PROPOSED SALE OF F–16 AIRCRAFT AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS OF PAKISTAN. HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

[Austin]

The current shoot down by Bison of F-16 by WVR missile once again proves the point we need MAWS on all the aircraft.

Fighting across Kashmir POK a hilly terrain area means your Big SAM wont be of much useful due to Terrain Masking and any SAM would have to be LOS ones like Akash that would at best defend Air Field or key army installation around 20 km Radius assuming there land has no hill terrain

Most of our fighter dogfight will end in merge then use of IIR/IR WVR range missile along with thousands of MANPADS is a greater threat.

If we dont have MAWS then the pilot would rarely know he is under attack much less things like vector and the direction the IR missile is approaching at it , All he does is do some blind hard manouvering with flares thrown randomly.

Far greater threat to our choppers and other types.

I could be wrong but neither the Mirage Upgrade or Mig-29 upgrade carries MAWS , BArring Tejas Mk2 I dont see MAWS on any type today.

Not sure why the IAF cant take this as priority and incorporate MAWS fleet wide on all fighters , transport fleet and helicopters. MANPADS and IR WVR missile are greater threat than any SAM or BVR missile.

[Philip]

Tx.Austin on that fascinating account of the MIG-21 by Air Cmde.Tyagi. In it he also mentions that the MIG-29 is the best combat fighter in the world adding to the words of AM Masand on the same .B.Karnad in one of his blogs had more on that.

The most telling point he made was that even the upgraded MIG which just pasted an F- 16 was " one-tenth" the cost of contemporary fighters.This is the point I've been emphasising for years which the IAF, rather profligate at times, must recognise and acquire the most cost-effective birds in large number as they say " quantity has a quality of its own".The hundreds of MIG-21s we possessed was a major factor in the IAF winning the air war un '71 against Pak.As stats have shown, over 60% of our wartime losses were due to ground fire.We must have at least a 2:1 numerical superiority ratio against Pak as we have the PLAAF to also deal with.

In the current context, beefing up the IAF with large numbers at reasonable cost is only possible with more MIG- 29s to UPG std., plus new MIG-35s which would be a little more expensive than the 29UPGs, but hugely more capable.

[Zynda]

I think BEL manufactured MAWS for Mi-17-V5 contract was signed around 2013 & integration should be WIP. Here is the excerpt from DRDO book the same.

EW Self-Protection suite, developed and integrated on Mi-17 helicopter is an integrated Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) with BDL-CMDS. RWR can intercept and identify airborne and ground-based acquisition, target tracking and missile guidance
radars in the 1-18 GHz frequency band. Missile approach warning system is a UV- based passive warner system for protecting aircraft against heat- seeking missiles by providing warning to the air crew. CMDS, an airborne defensive system, provides self-protection by passive ECM against radar,
radar-guided and IR seeking, air-and ground-launched missiles and radar-guided anti-aircraft missiles.

Protection is achieved by deceiving the missiles through the dispersal of chaff and/or flare. The systems were individually flight-evaluated for verification of their respective functional parameters and also evaluated in the integrated mode. After trials, the system has been recommended for the entire fleet of
Mi-17 helicopters.

But yes, lack of MAWS for other air borne platforms is concerning.

[UlanBatori]

Isn't it true that MiG21 on full afterburner is faster than F-16 on full afterburner? The spike inlet sure looks like it can slow down a Mach 2 inflow without major shocks. The wings are full delta wings. Much of the bad press that the MiG-21 gets, is due to the fact that it has high landing speed because it is designed for supersonic flight.

IMO this is the first combat mission where a MiG-21's capabilities were really exercised. In Vietnam it was mostly MiG-19s. Iraq's 21s if any were flown by quasi-Pakis. Real Russian/ Warsaw Pact pilots never got into shooting wars with US/NATO planes over Europe.

With its combat speed, it is not ideal for close-range post-stall maneuvers and gun-fights. But combat with modern BVR/ all-aspect ratio missiles? With Mach 2 punch? I think India has done well to not scrap these. Some mods to improve low-speed handling and reduce landing speed may be in order.

But right now, in Paki-combat, where the Paki invariably turns tail and tries to flee, the Pakis are going to get very literally buggered.

Over East Pak, I think IAF was basically asked to not waste time and fuel engaging Sabres which were anyway going to run out of fuel and runways shortly. In the West in '71 I am not aware of many MiG-21 dogfights, I have the feeling it was used as fighter-bomber. May be wrong.

So yes, it is a great demonstration, but I say it was "to be expected". Are there any COUNTER-examples - Paki planes (not SAMs) actually shooting down Indian MiG-21s?

Point of this post: I think Indians 200+ remaining MiG-21s completely outnumber and overwhelm the Paki's remaining 40 39 F-16s, let alone their JF-117s and dog-carts.

Supersonic. BVR AAM equipped. Indian-piloted. Translation: Deadly to Pakis. And to cheens, BTW

[nam]

We train regularly with Singapore F16. So IAF would know when and where to hit.

WC got the first shot and was downed by another F16.

PAF will not be confident that in a merge with IAF jets, F16 can survive. So cannot commit it to attrition warfare.

With BVR, it is then down to the tactics, with the target having pretty good chance of escaping.

PAF cannot now rely on USAF/IsAF style "air dominance" fight.

[nam]

Yeah with Mig21's speed, it is probably a good candidate for chase and shoot. Something which Mig25/Mig31 is made for.

[UlanBatori]

There seems to be a lot of doubt n exactly what caused WCdr Abhi's plane to crash. Hope he provides gyan on that (probably he won't). WAS it an AAM or SAM? I stick with the UBCN version which is that debris from the exploding F-16 ahead, hit a wing. As the old song goes:

Just a song b4 I "go", a lesson 2 b learned:
Traveling twice the speed of sound, it's EZ 2 get burned!

[Singha]

can the Tejas dual rack the WVR missiles on its 2nd pylons and one on 3rd pylon for a total of max 6? .. but usually 4 can be taken.
the innermost pylon can be drop tank or Astra/Derby as needed.

Su30MKM and Rafale use optical sensor with the rafale having costlier IIR sensor vs UV sensor on saab.
The EF goes in another direction with missile type Ka band mini radars.

not able to gather info if F16 and F15 have MAWS.

the F22 - AN/AAR-56 and JSN AN/AAQ-37 use IIR


MAW 300 from Saab Avitronics===> Malaysia SU30MKM has it

Missile-approach warning function (MAW-300)
Passive ultra-violet (UV) based sensors, which operates in the solar-blind UV spectrum.
Neural-net classifiers using both temporal and accurate spatial information as well as compensation of own platform movement, ensures low false-alarm rates.
Reaction time optimised by keeping missile time to impact constant, irrespective of range to ensure enhanced flare countermeasures effectiveness.
Inhibits warning against diverging missiles.
Direction accuracy suitable for cueing DIRCM and dispensing of countermeasures decoys in correct direction.
Spatial coverage of 110° conical per sensor limits unprotected "hole" below platform and allows good sensor overlap.
Spatial coverage of 360° AZ with 4 sensors. Full spherical coverage can be achieved with six sensors.
Provision to add up to eight sensors to ensure hemispherical or full spherical coverage.
Multi-threat capability allows tracking of multiple targets simultaneously.
Near 100 % probability of warning.
Compact, light-weight, low-power, no-cooling, skin-mounted sensors.

EF has this as part of its DASS suite
To track missiles launched at the typhoon, the DASS incorporates three Missile Approach Warners (MAW), one each in the both wing roots and one in the tail to provide a full 360° azimuth coverage around the aircraft.[23][24] In 1991, GEC-Plessey Avionics received the order to develop the missile approach warner derived from their PVS2000 MAW and utilises an active, millimeter-wave Ka-band (32–38 GHz) pulse-doppler radar for detection.[21][25] Since the units are active they are able to detect not only radar guided ordnance but also passive weapons such as infra red guided short range missiles.[26] They can detect multiple missiles launched towards the aircraft in all weather conditions and even after the rocket motor’s burnout phase. Once a missile is detected it will identified according to whether radar or IR guided and its location displayed on the MFDs. The MAW can automatically activate the chaff/flare dispensers as required.

Praetorian DASS
1. Laser warners
2. Flare launchers (IR decoys)
3. Chaff dispensers
4. Missile warners
5. Wingtip pods for ESCM
6. Towed decoy

Rafale
The SPECTRA system consists of two infrared missile warning sensor The DDM NG delivered its first in flight images in March 2010 and will be available on the Rafale from 2012.[citation needed] DDM NG incorporates a new infrared array detector which enhances performance with regard to the range at which a missile firing will be detected (with two sensors, each equipped with a fish-eye lens, DDM NG provides a spherical field of view around the aircraft). The DDM-NG also offers improved rejection of false alarms and gives an angular localisation capability which will be compatible with the future use of Directional Infrared Counter Measures (DIRCM).[2]

State-of-the-art IR staring array technology
Long detection range
Spherical field of view
High angular accuracy compliant with DIRCM needs

[Singha]

this link has very good real world performance data on the F-16 . in every measure except BVR missile firing, its mentioned as superior to the F-15 in air to air.
and it probably has no equal in sustained hard turning...though article mentions turns should not be sustained beyond 90' before jinking off into another turn...

https://defenseissues.net/2015/12/11/f-15-vs-f-16/

including

Engagement kill chain performance

Kill chain consists of following steps:

detect
detection capability
identification capability
engage
cruise speed
maximum speed / mach on entry
altitude on entry
lock on / firing solution range
missile seeker diversity
endgame countermeasures (inbuilt, towed, disposable; jammers, decoys, chaff, flares)
defeat the missile / disengage
airframe agility
sensors coverage
mach on egress / fuel reserves on afterburner
destroy
BVR missile seeker diversity
BVR missile agility
BVR missile warhead lethality
WVR missile agility
WVR missile warhead lethality
gun lethality

[UlanBatori]

OT I know, but imagine the possibilities if the MiG-25s were revived... Mach 3.5 dash to IslooGood.
Also.. a short-term suite of 100 LCAs (low-speed, manueverability for Kashmir and Khyber/ Bolan Pass regions) and 250 MiG-21s (for high-speed with BVR) sweeping the LOC on CAP - and deep strikes from bases elsewhere.

[Singha]

perhaps the case of mistaken id was because IAF and PAF have a eeriely similar dress

green, with choice of undershirt, white wings on a black patch

and if he was injured lets say in the arm some of it could be torn or bloodied on landing.





and I guess they do not wear name patches when flying? but IAF too has muslim pilots so the f-16 pilot could not use that as a differentiator.

the locals were already primed to attack and kill having read of the balakot attack the day before. they must have thought IAF was attacking again seeing the flurry of movements. they would have watched TV all day rousing themselves into a froth.

Abhi landed in some location where the PA could reach quickly, while the F16 may have landed on some remoter location.

[jamwal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PmnLASMFjg

Must watch discussion about Mig-21 on Rajya Sabha TV

[Rishirishi]

What the Americans thought of Bisons during red flag. In the video below US col. says they will need Raptors to combat Bisons.

Watch from 8.30 min. It is a short 30 second comment but very interesting indeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DycGbEjcHTY

[nam]

I wonder why PAF did not carry out a standoff attack? Why go for LGB strike, when one of their RAAD thing can carry stand off.

Since there were Mirage in the package, I am thinking they were with stand off weapons and potentially their own target set.

[Rakesh]

Perhaps their RAAD is not all that great as they proclaim.

Supposed range of 350 km as per wiki chacha....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatf-VIII_(Ra%27ad)

[nam]

From
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 6317234177

May not be fully true... but.

[Rakesh]

No more Rona-Dhona on why MiG-21 for CAP role. Imagine Tejas in the role!

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 4776730624 ---> No time like the present to replace the IAF’s MiG-21s, but for anyone who thinks the Bison isn’t a formidable jet to go up against, consider the words of an IAF Su-30 MKI pilot I just spoke to.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 2590593024 ---> Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman at hospital in Delhi, recovering well. Seen here with Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman.

[Aditya_V]

From
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 6317234177

May not be fully true... but.

From that map it mainly looks like only the F16s, dropped the LGB. The other aircraft were just to create a diversion.

[Rakesh]

Aditya_V: Please provide quotes when referring to other posters.

[Aditya_V]

Ok. Another thing it highlights is due to geography. We don't have too many airbases in the extreme North whereas the PAF is mostly based out of Northern bases. Whereas in the southern sectors from Sirsa onwards we have numerous airbases whereas Pakis just have Rafiqui Jacocabad Bholari and Maripur. So PAF will always be able to throw more planes in the J&K area. That's why they always try and focus on Pathankot. We must find a way of like adding fighters at Gaggal airport etc to be bring more planes to the fight in J&K.