MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4109
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JayS » 02 Mar 2019 23:49

If the picture is taken at face value, it looks like Pakis might have sent their junk Mirages in large number from the south side of the map, A group of F16 on CAP also turned to merge with them, giving an impression they might enter Indian Airspace from there, and trying to lure Indian CAP fighters towards the south. They expected this would give a precious few minutes, (couple of minutes would have been enough to just cross the LoC, hurl the bombs and run away, our Bdg HQ seems to be rather close to LoC there) towards Nowshera. For F16 (red) was the main strike package. But two of our MiGs still were there and they took them head on. Rest of the puki jets were just as diversion. IAF is supposed to have similarly fooled PAF, but perhaps with much larger scale to hide 12 M2K strike package.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5095
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby jamwal » 02 Mar 2019 23:49

This F-16 was shot over Jammu division near Rajauri (?) area, so not Kashmir. Edit: Title should be MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in J&K or Jammu.
Last edited by jamwal on 02 Mar 2019 23:59, edited 2 times in total.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10902
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Mar 2019 23:53

Rajouri still J&K . We only have Pathankot Awantipura Srinagar/Budgam to defend the area. Planes taking from Leh will have serious reduction in payload.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishirishi » 02 Mar 2019 23:58

nam wrote:I wonder why PAF did not carry out a standoff attack? Why go for LGB strike, when one of their RAAD thing can carry stand off.

Since there were Mirage in the package, I am thinking they were with stand off weapons and potentially their own target set.


Becase it was all about demonstrating the ability to attack to the Pakistani public. PAF had no interest in the target. They could have used a cruise missile or what ever.

Actually they have done very well on the PR front. They bombed India and even got an IAF Pilot trophy.

But after loosing an F-16 to a Bison, their AF must be shaken to the core. They even used the AIM-120. It was 4 F-16 v 2 Bison and the score is 1-1. That too in a situation where they had an advantage to pick time and place.

Had it been me in PAF (god help the Pakistanis) I would have dropped a load of tomatos and made sure it was filmed by the Jehadi friends on the ground. The news would have been sensational and traveled world wide. Made a Joke of India and also show the humor side of Pakistan.

khan
BRFite
Posts: 520
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby khan » 03 Mar 2019 00:01

Rishirishi wrote:
nam wrote:I wonder why PAF did not carry out a standoff attack? Why go for LGB strike, when one of their RAAD thing can carry stand off.

Since there were Mirage in the package, I am thinking they were with stand off weapons and potentially their own target set.


Becase it was all about demonstrating the ability to attack to the Pakistani public. PAF had no interest in the target. They could have used a cruise missile or what ever.

Actually they have done very well on the PR front. They bombed India and even got an IAF Pilot trophy.

But after loosing an F-16 to a Bison, their AF must be shaken to the core. They even used the AIM-120. It was 4 F-16 v 2 Bison and the score is 1-1. That too in a situation where they had an advantage to pick time and place.

Had it been me in PAF (god help the Pakistanis) I would have dropped a load of tomatos and made sure it was filmed by the Jehadi friends on the ground. The news would have been sensational and traveled world wide. Made a Joke of India and also show the humor side of Pakistan.

It will be even worse for them it it turns out that the MiG-21 was taken out by ground fire or an engine flame-out. The real score will be 1-0 in Indians favor.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10902
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Mar 2019 00:04

You are forgetting one thing, it was not just public pressure but jihadi pressure the PAF had to act. They hadsufferred real causualties and Barelvis are seething.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2045
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby John » 03 Mar 2019 00:09

Aditya_V wrote:You are forgetting one thing, it was not just public pressure but jihadi pressure the PAF had to act. They hadsufferred real causualties and Barelvis are seething.

It's very likely Azhar was seriously inj or killed and moved to Karachi and Pak FM is using dialysis as a cover story ( how convenient). Likely month or two from now they will claim he passed away.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 00:25

Manish_P wrote:
Austin wrote:From the book 50 years of Mig-21 with the IAF
My Life with the Mig-21 , Air Commodore SS Tyagi
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing this interview.

++1000 for that. Mach 2.45 and 78000 feet (>100,000 feet possible) in the hands of a super-pilot. This is what I suspected: it is far faster than an F-16. F-16 has superb handling at high angle of attack (not as good as Su-27/30 by a long way..) but for sheer speed the MiG21 is superior.
Take that up ur "afterburners", Pakis!
We just showed what happens when ONE Indian pilot goes up in a MiG-21 against TWO Paki pilots: same rank, mind u. Only the One returns alive and victorious.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2371
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 03 Mar 2019 00:37

If we take the image as closer to what happened, my theory there were 3 pronged attack, however the ones with Mirage were probably tracked and locked on by Su30 and Mirage. So crossing LoC would mean smashing head on to a BVR.

The northern one might have found gaps, given the range limitation of Bison's radar and went for it.

Still cannot wrap around choosing a LGB attack. They could always lie to their mango abdul while using a stand off weapon. They must be having some A2G for standoff attacks.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 00:51

Is it possible to put SPICE packages on MiG-21s I wonder. Imagine: ability to zoom to high altitude, high-Mach and lob the SPICE from say, 70,000 feet and Mach 2+. Glide range may be all the way to Peshawar and Quetta.

500 platforms capable of doing that all along the LOC/IB. Any time, any day or night. 1000kgs high explosive through your roof. Safer to be in Ayesha's shed than inside Mansion.

Bart S
BRFite
Posts: 1829
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bart S » 03 Mar 2019 01:08

Even if a Mig 21 can carry 1000kg bombs, lugging around that payload would probably neutralize the performance features that you are talking about.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 01:22

1470 km range with 2 K-13A missiles and 800 liters fuel. So if ur mission is simply to zoom to max altitude (AB optional except to climb fast) you need much less fuel and no missiles. Drag of SPICE may be an issue, but why climb supersonic? Get up there to the rarefied air, accelerate to max speed, lob the SPICE, turn around and glide back on minimum power and land. Jaish-e-goat-lovers HQ goes Kaboom!!!!

Added later: 2 K-13 missiles only add up to 180kg, so very little fuel can be carried if SPICE is carried. Max takeoff weight is considerably higher, so maybe fuel load can be better.

If 100 MiGs take off simultaneously from airfields all over the LOC, and 45 are carrying SPICE, I don't see how PA can defend. It's curtains for the PA and their terrorists. This is Modiji's "Scaled Up" Pilot Project IMO. The Mirage-2000s can stick to the LGBs where they specialize. Those are for Sargodha and Peshawar and Karachi Harbor and downtown Islamabad.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 01:29, edited 3 times in total.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 01:25

My bad! MiG 21 has long record of combat in Vietnam. 85 lost, 244 kills, much better than 1:1 against F-4 Phantom which was the top air superiority platform b4 F-16/F-14/F-15 generation IIRC. These were desperate times for the NVAF, with pilots having short lifetimes and shorter training opportunity and education.
IAF has had a long "peacetime" to practise, and superbly educated and trained pilots.

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krish.pf » 03 Mar 2019 01:31

nam wrote:Still cannot wrap around choosing a LGB attack.

They probably thought using a long range stand off weapon would be a further escalation to the ammo dump they targeted in the brigade HQ. If long range weapons get employed what next? Cruise missiles and ballistic missiles with conventional payloads? Its like opening a pandora's box.

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krish.pf » 03 Mar 2019 02:17

Talking about the Bison, the Russians offered an engine upgrade(a modified RD-33 IIRC) too, but the IAF didn't opt for it because the Bisons were supposed to be on air for not for very long. The first bisons we got were in 2001. In 2006, IAF requested to extend the life of the Bisons to another 1500 hours or so but it was made clear that Bisons were cleared to for only another additional 1000 hours. Its 2019 now, 13 years later. So it is kinda flying for less hours per year, every year.
To lose to such a, pushed to the extreme limits of its airframe life, aircraft... and that too a F-16, PAF is one of a kind.

Also the upgrade program was dirt cheap too for 125 aircrafts! some $700 million odd at that time.

Also the tumansky R-25-300 on the Bison variant, has a extreme afterburner mode which is cleared for 3 minutes under 4000m altitude. It delivers 9900kgf of thrust compared to the normal afterburner thrust of 7,000kgf. Very very useful for interception, and MAYBE during dogfights as well.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 03:40

When I look at pics of IAF MiGs, what strikes me is that no one seems to care about keeping the exterior (at least) looking clean and polished etc. Cockpit side looks grimy like an Indian Railways First Class comparment!! Isn't this the sort of thing that commanders insist on, like cleaning a rifle after every time it is fired etc? If they don't clean, how do they minimize transonic drag? How do they see cracks?

I posted on how the Soviets squeezed a captured intact (but obviously not working any more) Sidewinder from the musharraf of a Chinese/NVA plane over Vietnam, and used it to develop the K-13. They called it like getting a university course on missile design free. Then they IMPROVED on that, and US had to race to upgrade the Sidewinder to match that.
Now WHY is it so ****** hard for Indians to do things like that (if it is... just asking). Way back in the pre-ArjunPandit Epoch (PAPE) there was an area of the NAL or some other lab that we yaks were allowed to vijit, where the section was blocked off with floor-to-high-ceiling heavy blue curtains. Of course we peeked, there was a tall, erect mijjile there. Someone whispered that it was a Soviet.

I hope that was used well. But for the life of me I cannot figure out how the neat RD9-F axial turbomachine engine sat out in the lobby of the EyeEyeTea aero goatshed for ages, with only dust to mark its otherwise shiny green surfaces - almost as shiny as the Kaveri sitting in the glass case at GTRE. What prevented India from mass-producig similar injuns I cannot understand. But I know, OT. Just a thought for the yaks of today.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 03:43, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18051
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 03:42

SaiK wrote:Abhinandan’s last radio message said he had locked on to Pak F-16
TNN | Mar 3, 2019, 01.14 AM IST
NEW DELHI: “R-73 selected,” was the last radio transmission of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman from his MiG-21 “Bison” fighter jet. He then let loose the Vympel R-73 air-to-air missile at the Pakistani F-16 fighter in his cross-hairs before he himself was shot down.

The high-altitude dogfight between supersonic Indian and Pakistani fighters, after the latter breached Indian airspace west of Rajouri in Sunderbani area just after 10 am on February 27, transfixed the nation after Varthaman ended up in Pakistan’s custody after parachuting down in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

A day after the IAF air strikes at the Balakot terror facility in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa region, Pakistan sought to retaliate by deploying F-16s, JF-17s and Mirage-5 attack jets in “a large strike package” to target Indian military installations across the LoC, ranging from the brigade headquarters at Bhimber Gali to an ammunition dump at Narian.

Varthaman was among the six MiG-21 pilots who scrambled from Srinagar, apart from Sukhoi-30MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s being deployed from other airbases, to intercept the Pakistani fighters. “We knew they would react after our Balakot strikes, but did not expect them to retaliate so soon,” said an officer.

The rival fighters were soon chasing each other in the ensuing dogfight, with the entire air battle lasting for around 15 minutes from beginning to finish. Varthaman in his MiG-21, which has a design vintage of the 1960s, managed to “lock on” to a much more modern Pakistani F-16. At such close-quarters, the short-ranger R-73 missile is preferred over the longer range RVV-AE medium-range air-to-air missiles also carried by MiG-21s.


“The R-73 is better in such a melee. This is probably the first time a Russian-origin MiG-21 has shot down an American F-16 anywhere in the world,” said another officer. Pakistan, of course, went blue in the face to deny it had deployed F-16s in the air intrusion, leave alone having lost one of the planes.

But IAF radars picked up “electronic signatures” of the F-16s. To clinch the case, Indian forces later recovered parts of an AIM-120C advanced medium-range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM), which is only carried by F-16s in Pakistan’s combat fleet, from east of Rajouri in J&K.


“IAF fighters managed to thwart the attempt by Pakistani fighters to target Indian military installations through laser-guided bombs. The bombs fell in compounds of Indian Army formations, without causing any significant damage, due to IAF’s swift response,” said another officer.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 238027.cms

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 03:46

So IAF forced PAF to break off and run w/o waiting for the LGB to follow the spot to the target? IA may have to rebuild their base pakistans, hain? :rotfl:

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 03:51

Guys, I STILL CANNOT understand how Terroristsn was forced to hand back the Wing Cdr in 2 dins. Note fate of the poor businessman sitting sentenced to death in Paki jail, etc. All the high-sounding stuff about Jiin-e-Va Convention is so much Berkeley-Stanford. PAKIS? Geneva Convention? :rotfl:

To me, as posted b4, that is the most startling change in GOI: Modi had no hesitation putting the decision of 1.3 billion Indians solidly behind the Or Else demand, just for ONE SOLDIER.

Made Dimran shake like a Belly Dancer in heat as he declared to his "Parliament" of terrorists:
Mmmmmmooodddiii eeeejjj tttthinking offff uuuuujjjing mmmmmijjjjilej!!


I hope all netas learn from that - and the swift capitulation of the enemy. Truly historic and unprecedented. May it lead to the dawn of a new age.

Real mark of a civilized SuperPower.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 03:53, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2371
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 03 Mar 2019 03:53

Something my CT is telling me, they did not have time to properly lase the target. I don't know if it is possible, wonder if the f16 went down with a active lgb..fundamentally blowing up in to pieces on impact.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 03:55

namji, LGB requires pilot to hold plane in the area so that the laser can keep the spot focused on target. If you turn around in the same general area, that's OK (this is the big advance: in the past you had to point towards it/keep target in your scope rectangle etc). If you scoot on full Zone 5 a/b, no way. Laser spot becomes bigger than Murdike.

Found that from Googleswara; difference between LGB and SPICE. SPICE is GPS iirc.
This is the diff. between IAF and PAF. WCDr Abhi kept the lock on his prey though his Missile Warning was blaring.
The Pakis ran as soon as they saw the IAF. Q.E.D.
And the thing is (hilarious if it wasn't so tragic), both Pakis got beaten to death BY THEIR OWN PPL!!!

sudarshan
BRFite
Posts: 1899
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudarshan » 03 Mar 2019 04:18

Rishi_Tri wrote:
chetak wrote:


Is it really needed to post pics? Description should do. Wg Cdr Abhinandan shall be high on Zihadhis hit list now including his family.


Please delete those pics. You are painting targets on those people. For heaven's sake not on BRF of all places!

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3968
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Mar 2019 04:23

Khalsa wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Navjot Sidhu should think a little, perhaps this man caused Pakistan to decide not to prosecute war. If he did lock on to that F 16 and fire, he may have demonstrated what a formidable battle Pakistan was facing starting with the lowly MiG 21. Otherwise it would be Panjab that could have faced Pakistani tanks.

I am amazed at your ability....

I hope this did not refer to me. My comment was on Navjot Sidhu's love for Niazi. Note I did not include Singh in his name. That says it all.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18051
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 04:24

I'll delete the pics but just to point out, its all over the internet. Including Def Mins meeting with him today, had his family pics included.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18051
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 04:28

abhik wrote:Do the Bisons carry any BVR anymore, since the R-77s have reportedly turned out to be duds and MKI now are seen only with R-27s?


Dont assume that we never purchased any more newer model, fixed, R-77s.

During tests in Russia, why test if its not being procured?

Image

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6880
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Anujan » 03 Mar 2019 04:40

UlanBatori wrote:Guys, I STILL CANNOT understand how Terroristsn was forced to hand back the Wing Cdr in 2 dins. Note fate of the poor businessman sitting sentenced to death in Paki jail, etc. All the high-sounding stuff about Jiin-e-Va Convention is so much Berkeley-Stanford. PAKIS? Geneva Convention? :rotfl:


It might be a mijjile threat. Or more practically, I am not sure Dimran was confident Bajwa will follow his orders. Bajwa was not confident Air Chief Nanha Muj will follow his orders. Air Chief Nanha Muj was not confident his base commander will follow orders .... all the way down to the Jihadi Fistula guarding the Wg Cmdr. They had admitted WgCmdr was in custody. Nobody was sure he would be treated well, because they have no faith in their chain of command. Dimran is looking over his shoulder checking for a coup attempt, all the way down to the captain who is not sure if any one of his Jihadi Fistulas are going to go Jeeeeehaaaaaarrrrrddddd!!!! on him (Like Salman Taseer and his bodyguard).

The best option for them was to let the Wg Cmdr go as soon as possible.

This is the second time PAF was humiliated (last time was when OBL was given his 72). Both times, the TFTAs pointed fingers on PAF and made PAF look bad.

I think PAF chief should demand that TFTAs need to give PAF all the locations of Jihadi training camps so PAF knows what to guard and when. Otherwise when SDREs showed up with a strike package, all of PAF was rushing to Bhawalpur and Muridke leaving their musharraf unguarded, not knowing all the Mujs were gathered there.

YashG
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 71
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby YashG » 03 Mar 2019 05:09

Of the 20 Aircrafts that took part in the PAF attack - 8 F16; 8 Mirage 3 & 5 & 4 JF17 - Only 4 were JF-17. If JF17 is PAF's second best ac, why not create package with more of them? Why rely on Mirage 3 & 5 ( which are truly vintage - Only PAF & Egypt AF uses these anymore) ?
JF-17 should be better than Mirages 3 & 5 in any department. Either PAF still doesnt have full confidence on JF17 or there was some operational reason that I do not know.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 6317234177 this tweet shows a package of M5, JF17 ( 4 each originating from same area) - So scrambling ACs from different bases may not hold true. Instead of 4-4 split, all 8 could have been JF17.

On the night of Indian attack, JF17 was shown as scrambling in a video. As it ascended it kept on flaring - as if running with its tail between its legs.

Why wouldnt you create a package with your best ACs? if you have the time and luxury to choose unless you know performance wise JF17 doesnt outdo Mirages by a big margin.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3968
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Mar 2019 05:48

Why were we in such a hurry to return the pilot?: Sherry Rehman
https://dailytimes.com.pk/360165/why-we ... ry-rehman/

What's Urdu for 'because Modi was using Bajwa's cojones as castanets"?

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 484
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Haridas » 03 Mar 2019 05:55

ramana wrote:Haridas has a theroy and will let him post it.

Twitter ate my original post of 2 days ago. Belated post of my visualization

24 PAF aircraft attack beaten by 8. It was an act of war and PAF was beaten.

In the fog of war the 24 ship attack formation comprised:
8x F-16
4x JF-17
4x Mirage-3/5
8x J-7 (Chinese copy of Mig 21)

IMHO following is my visualization:
1. IAF defense comprised SU30MKI in high altitude mini-AWAC mode with data-link with ground controllers and other fighters such that other fighters have radar in no-transmit mode. Just like many COPE INDIA excercise with USAF.

2. After crossing LOC 3xF16 were engaged by two Mig21 Bisons. W/Cdr Abhinandan vectored to its target based on real time datalink feed. Target was jumped and IR seeking close combat missile R73 was locked and fired (recall that radar or radar lock has no role in this missile type). All the while not RF emitting anything. So F16's RWR (Radar warming receiver) did not squawk. F16 wingman might have warned the pigeon under attack. R73 has very high Pk (probability of kill) across wide bore sight angles. PAF F16 intruder shot down in flames,

3. Wing Co's aircraft likely had either
A) a engine failure (at high altitude engine may stall due to missile plume interference). Resulting in shallow glide, flying over enemy ground air defense gunfire.
B ) pigeon wingman fired AA missile might have damaged Bison.

Bison crash debris show extensive number of similar sized holes consistent with ground fire damage.

4. IAF welcome party must have fired upon intruders many medium/short range missiles that would have produced enemy loss. It thus appears enemy only made shallow diversionary ingress with one or two F16 trying making a dash on interior Indian Army targets.

The sneakers hounded by SU-30MKI/Mirage-2000 will make any F16 pilot fear for his life. That could explain sneakers failing to deliver accurately LGB bombs. However it does not explain the hounding IAF interceptors not drawing blood from its close combat or medium-range or BVR missiles.

I must say that in an intrusion over a wide area it is hard to immediately engage intruder for a small set of defender aircrafts.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3431
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 03 Mar 2019 06:10

sanjaykumar wrote:I hope this did not refer to me. My comment was on Navjot Sidhu's love for Niazi. Note I did not include Singh in his name. That says it all.


Just to point out. Navjot (Singh) Sidhu's wife's name is also Navjot Sidhu.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7100
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby disha » 03 Mar 2019 06:17

UlanBatori wrote:And the thing is (hilarious if it wasn't so tragic), both Pakis got beaten to death BY THEIR OWN PPL!!!


It could be that Bakis from PAF got beaten to death by villagers *because* they got bomb'ed!

Think about it,

1. PAF created a strike package. They wanted to use LGB because they can bomb while the target is lased.
2. The dual seater was lasing the target while other F-16s released the LGB.
3. They were caught with their pants down by the interceptors and they turned tail. The dual seater F16 B actually was a high value target. It would have the LDP/ECCM etc.
4. As they turned tail, any and all munitions had to be let go by the strike PAF and some of it landed on their own side.
5. The villagers thought that they were being bomb'ed and decided to beat them to death.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 06:30

Failure of LGBs proves that intruders turned tail and fled at high speed. Probably IAF under orders not to fire on planes that have not launched missiles and are on other side of LOC. I am not at all convinced how the Mig21 got hit. Did the pilot say anything public so far? IMO best bet is still our original hypothesis: hit by debris from missile that hit the F-16 straight ahead. Remember he was probably supersonic by then. Lucky he wasn't killed outright.

One point in the "Indian" account above does not make any sense. Say an Indian pilot stationed in/near J&K in 2019 lands by parachute. Sees shalwar-clad natives advancing. They don't look very friendly. One shouts Pakistan Zindabad! They start throwing stones. What does said pilot assume from this? That he is in POK? :rotfl:
Of course that he is in the Kashmir Valley, duh! Or Godhra, Gujarat, but that's a bit far.
So that part of the story is BS. Not that it matters. I think he is lucky to have landed where he did: the natives had no intention to kill him. Unlike what they did to their own earlier.

SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1762
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SriKumar » 03 Mar 2019 06:31

Anujan wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Guys, I STILL CANNOT understand how Terroristsn was forced to hand back the Wing Cdr in 2 dins. Note fate of the poor businessman sitting sentenced to death in Paki jail, etc. All the high-sounding stuff about Jiin-e-Va Convention is so much Berkeley-Stanford. PAKIS? Geneva Convention?


It might be a mijjile threat. Or more practically, I am not sure Dimran was confident Bajwa will follow his orders. Bajwa was not confident Air Chief Nanha Muj will follow his orders. Air Chief Nanha Muj was not confident his base commander will follow orders .... all the way down to the Jihadi Fistula guarding the Wg Cmdr. They had admitted WgCmdr was in custody. Nobody was sure he would be treated well, because they have no faith in their chain of command.
I thought it might have been Modi's threat to respond that would have ..err....facilitated quick decision. PAkistanis understand NO OTHER language, and Modi knows this quite well (and said so on TV). But your theory may have some merit.

This is a good time to remember Sqn Leader Ahuja, who was shot down in the Kargil airwar while he provided cover for Lt. NAchiketa. From sources, I've heard that he was killed by Pakistani/jihadi forces after landing alive (not sure how true this is but this is what I heard from chaiwalas near hawaii jahaj children's park). Others who remember the Atlantique shoot-down where 20+ Pakistani pilots (some trainee pilots) were killed.....I've always considered that as IAF's revenge on Sqn Leader Ahuja's killing. And PAF would have learnt this lesson well.

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6880
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Anujan » 03 Mar 2019 06:37

Add to that Capt Saurabh Kalia. He was definitely tortured. His father said as much. AFAIK, the family protested that goi should do something about it.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11687
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2019 06:45

deleted, OT
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Mar 2019 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7100
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby disha » 03 Mar 2019 06:47

Haridas wrote:
24 PAF aircraft attack beaten by 8. It was an act of war and PAF was beaten.

In the fog of war the 24 ship attack formation comprised:
8x F-16
4x JF-17
4x Mirage-3/5
8x J-7 (Chinese copy of Mig 21)


IAF defended *extremely well*, won the battle and in the process created history. The above strike package is huge.

Just to point out, there was civilian air traffic (Delhi -> Jammu) and (Delhi -> Srinagar) that complicated everything.

Also IAF was surprised because they would have expected a evening/night or very early morning air raid. Perfidious Bakis decided to attack at a time when civilian air crafts were around.

I do not think the IAF interceptors would have risked releasing any BVRs and hence decided to merge.

Further, even though the strike package comprised of 24 fighters from PAF, only 8 were high value targets. The F-16s. If F-16s were allowed to penetrate deeper, they would have damaged more.

The two Mig 21 Bisons engaged the 3-4 F-16s and wasted one of them at the loss of one.

4 - Sukhoi's and 2 - Mirage 2k from IAF had to content with the remaining 20 PAFs, viz 4 F-16's, 4 JF17, 4 Mirage 3/5 and 8 J-7. This strike package was near Jammu. And none of bandits could cross deep. They were bounced back from the LOC itself.

[^Part of the reading from nam's post on page 3 of this thread (image with perfidious bakis strike package).

hgupta
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 20 Oct 2018 14:17

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby hgupta » 03 Mar 2019 06:52



Not good for GoI because we need to protect the Indian prisoners in Pakistan from further retaliation. GoI would have a massive PR problem if an Indian prisoner was killed in retaliation for the killed Baki prisoner. After all Pakistan released Wing Co Abhinandan Varthaman relatively unharmed aside from his initial injuries.

SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1762
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SriKumar » 03 Mar 2019 06:59

hgupta- google Sarabjit Singh and see how he was killed 6 years ago. (O/T).
Pakistanis will understand the constraints very well. They too have them.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18051
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 07:12

Austin wrote:Does EL 8222 have ability to jam modern AMRAAM C-5 class missile , I suppose AMRAAM will have LOJ feature built in ......is this a DRFM type jammer

Karan ?


Band coverage yes (X, Ku), techniques (classified for sure) but will employ deception, specific techniques not noise for HOJ to work...but basic issue is this, antenna are forward and aft so flank attacks by BVR missiles would still work and that's why BVR combat is all about position, position! And why internal SPJs wih 360 coverage are so prized.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 759
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 03 Mar 2019 07:20

Haridas wrote: However it does not explain the hounding IAF interceptors not drawing blood from its close combat or medium-range or BVR missiles.

I must say that in an intrusion over a wide area it is hard to immediately engage intruder for a small set of defender aircrafts


Haridasji as Disha posted above, I read it somewhere else too there was civilian airlines in the air at that time and to unleash BVR where civilian airlines fly who do not respond to IFF is suicide. So clearly porkis choose a day time when they can hide behind civvies but still got ass whipped.

The other thing I want to post is China has program to convert Mig-19's to unmanned aircraft, Iraqi's did convert their Mig-21 in 90's too. I cannot find but I saw a picture where there was plan with IAI Israel to convert Mig-21's to unmanned aircraft but later on that project got nixed . This to me should be seriously pursued.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ashishvikas, Ashokk, Kakarat, kumarn, Rajesh_MR, Rakesh, vivek_ahuja and 67 guests