MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 03 Mar 2019 14:26

LOL

the nose cone actually survived being shot the hell out and then free falling to mother earth.

I salyut mother russia.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Mar 2019 14:34

1) chetak ji..ROE remains till the govt officially declares a war..else there will be total chaos. I think i read in the blog by Kaiser tufail that in one of their meetings the ROE were discussed ..what if we shoot a missile and IAF plane falls in indian territory...and it was decided its not acceptable 2) Both sides will try to break into each others AD ..SEAD is exactly that... all targets dont necessairly fall in max range of munitiions... more so for PAF which has much less depth.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 03 Mar 2019 14:49

Karan M wrote:
Prasad wrote: To add, paf f16s do not have drfm. Robot mentioned in that fmf page on the pengalin site.
They did acquire DRFM jammers later.
https://www.harris.com/sites/default/fi ... asheet.pdf

Does the IAF have something similar? isnt the EL8222 pod on WC Abhi's Mig 21 similar to ALQ211 DRFM on the PAF F-16s. DRFM is critical to improve survivability of the Aircraft platform to radar guided weapons such as AIM120C and SD10.

Schmidt · Post by **Schmidt** » 03 Mar 2019 15:20

tandav wrote:I do not believe anything PAF/Pakistan says, their denial means nothing they have no credibility. I have been scouring the internet for F-16 wreckage in the hopes of finding some evidence that sticks, this I have not found as yet. I am very inclined to believe IAF but hard evidence/wreckage and Abhi's gun camera footage all fell into Pakistan, this is very dissatisfying. I am unhappy that inspite of IAF full alert and a juicy 24 aircraft package opportunity we did not swat down 5-6 PAF planes in this particular engagement and bury the PAF forever, that's the kind of dominance I expected the IAF to have. Jingo is never happy.

The serial number found on the wreckage in one of the pics released by the Pakis was traced back to a second hand F16 bought from RJAF by Pakistan

Isn't that proof enough ?

ankitash · Post by **ankitash** » 03 Mar 2019 15:42

Some folks found a stock image of Waseem-ud-Din. There is speculation that the young guy behind him is his son. If some rich rakshak can buy the stock image it'll be easy to see the badge

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-air-f ... 11797.html
Air Force Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din along with Turkey Air Force (TAF) officials cuts cake during ceremony on the arrival of first batch of three F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) Aircraft held at PAF Base Shahbaz

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Mar 2019 15:45

"11 Sqn - One Team , One Mission"
23 June 2015
What is the badge on 4th pilot ?

24 February 2015 ·
No 9 Sqn Griffns(1997) At Sargodha Base

23 January 2015
Twin seater F-16

20 October 2017 ·
No.11 Sqn group photo with ACM Tanvir M. Ahmad, CAS PAF (Mar 2006-Mar 2009)

Another twin seater, with paki president in back

14 April 2018 ·
14 April 2018 ·
Twin Seater F-16D from No.5 Squadron 'Falcons' of PAF

PM Nawaz Sharif in a group photo with Defence Minister, Air Chief and officers of PAF during visit to Mushaf Base.
"F-16 fighter jets belonging to Squadron 9 ."

7. Twin seater PAF F-16B dropping a GBU-10 (2000 lb/near-1000 kg) laser-guided bomb

This F-16B (Serial# 82602, Griffin) was severely damaged by bomb debris during live bombing, it had to make emergency landing at night and was stopped only by runway barriers.
Today it's operational flying again after being locally reworked, refitted and repaired

Another F-16 from Sherdil

Griffin No. ( Squadron, names of pilots visible in back

Another twin seater from Arrows

What's this Tree and Swords logo ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 15:46

Mig-21 Kills till Date

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 15:52

Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Mar 2019 15:58

^^^ Austin saar, I am at the point that I would be happier if we had shot down a JF-17. It’s been maddening.

The Blunder has become the biggest winner over this din of lies and fog. It is being given its first kill in gora publications and its maker’s stock price had shot up.

We must make an effort to expose the lies on this sh1t plane. The F-16 is a known quantity and we know we can shoot it down but in the end the Falcon’s reputation has little effect on India save for MMRCA II where it had little chance anyways. Not so with the JF-17 which forms the PAF’s future backbone and will be competing directly with the Tejas on the world’s market.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 16:03

No pilot knows which fighter he will face in combat up there , Neither Winco knew he would face the F-16 or F-16 knew he would end up in duel with Bison. There were MKI , 2000/29UPG in air but as fate would be it was the Bison that met with F-16 and not JF-17 or Mirages

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 16:04

Austin wrote:Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/ec ... 24025.html

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

So Bison and 27 UPG have ODL Data link ?

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 03 Mar 2019 16:13

jamwal wrote:

What's this Tree and Swords logo ?

It's the official KSA logo

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 03 Mar 2019 16:30

I think the above is an F 15 and not an F 16, thus the logo

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Mar 2019 16:56

jamwal wrote:https://scontent.fdel8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5D1F7779
What's this Tree and Swords logo ?

Saudi Air Force.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Mar 2019 17:15

15. PAF Air Marshall Waseem in one of the pictures accepting Second Batch of F-16 C/D Block 52
http://paf.gov.pk/2nd_batch_F-16_block52.html

https://tribune.com.pk/story/10719/paf- ... ing-in-us/

Eight Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilots, each experienced in the F-16A/B, completed flying training on block 52 F-16 C/D model aircraft at the international F-16 training unit at Tucson, Arizona.
According to PAF Spokesman, they will be honoured at a graduation ceremony at the Pima Air and Space Museum, USA on Tuesday (today).
These eight PAF pilots undertook seven months of training in Tucson that included a fighter conversion course on the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification so that they can return home and impart similar training to other pilots.
These pilots are now ready to handle the new block 52 F-16 C/D technology after training with the Arizona Air National Guards in USA.
Keynote speakers at the graduation ceremony will include Air Marshal Waseem Ud Din, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Admin), Pakistan Air Force and Brig Gen Lyn D Sherlock, the Director of regional affairs, Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for International Affairs.
The new Block 52 planes purchased by PAF, are truly multi-role fighters and are far more advanced than the F-16 A/B currently on the inventory of the PAF. These will allow PAF pilots to conduct operations at night and also greatly enhance their use of precision munitions.

https://www.162wing.ang.af.mil/News/Art ... -training/

U.S., Pakistan relations bolstered by F-16 training
By Maj. Gabe Johnson, 162nd Fighter Wing Public Affairs / Published May 04, 2010

As a vital partner for U.S. forces in Southwest Asia, Pakistan's air force will soon upgrade its 30-year-old fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons. The pilots charged with flying more capable fighters are ready to handle the new technology after training with the Arizona Air National Guard.

Eight Pakistan Air Force pilots, each experienced in the F-16A/B, recently learned to fly the newer C/D model aircraft at the 162nd Fighter Wing, the international F-16 training unit at Tucson International Airport. They were honored at a graduation ceremony here May 4.

They are the first from their country to train in the United States since 1983 when the last class of Pakistani pilots trained at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz.

"This graduation is historic for U.S.-Pakistan relations," said Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif, a 12-year F-16A pilot. "For Pakistan, our air force is gaining capabilities that it has needed for the last decade; capabilities that are critical to ongoing operations in Pakistan's war on terror."

The new planes purchased by the Pakistani government, block 52 versions of the multi-role fighter, are far more advanced than the older A-model versions and will allow pilots to conduct operations at night and greatly enhance their use of precision munitions.

The first four of the 18 total purchased are scheduled for delivery June 26 to Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan. The rest will be delivered on a staggered schedule throughout this year. In addition, their existing fleet will undergo a mid-life update in 2011 designed to upgrade cockpits and avionics to match the F-16C/D.

In preparation for the June delivery, the eight pilots and their families will have spent 10 months in the United States navigating the upgrade training pipeline.

They spent two and half months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas, and seven months in flight training at Tucson International Airport. Since the C/D-models used for training in Tucson are block 25 F-16s, they will next undergo two weeks of additional block 52 instruction before returning to Pakistan.

"Even though they're flying block 25s here, they will still be able to operate their block 52s back home. When they leave here they will get training from Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas, on the differences," said Lt. Col. Kelly Parkinson, 195th Fighter Squadron commander. "The two blocks fly the same; it's essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference."

The bulk of their flight training in Tucson included a transition course from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification.

"We're training these eight pilots so they can return home and be instructors themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s," said Colonel Parkinson, a 22-year fighter pilot.

"I think the training here is very well organized and tailored to our needs, also the standards here are very high," said Latif. "This is going to make a big difference because we do not have the capability to make precision engagements at night with A-models. Everybody understands that collateral damage is a big factor and the sensors on the C-model will help us carry out precision engagement and close air support."

With so much to learn, the students flew a rigorous schedule of five flights per week. The average student tempo is closer to three per week.

"The radar, datalink and other avionics help create the big picture of what is going on around you. There's lots of information to process in the C-model, so you have to prioritize all of the input you are getting," said Squadron Leader Yasir Malik. "But these instructors know what they are doing and they are good teachers."

Maj. Windy Hendrick, a flight commander and 13-year F-16 pilot, has instructed students from all over the world. She said she and her fellow instructors learned a great deal about their Pakistani counterparts.

"They are all experienced pilots with 500 to 1,800 fighter hours in the F-16, and the majority of that time is combat hours in the fight against extremists," she said. "They are very humble and don't talk about their experience, but the more we learn about them and all they've done it makes us proud to be their instructors."

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Mar 2019 17:54

On a glance, this 5 pilot from left looks a lot like missing pakistani F-16 pilot. Is there anyone who sees a similarity ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2019 17:56

I suggest people spend some cycles on what is one of the few open src books on figher combat out there,
By robert shaw

http://falcon.blu3wolf.com/Docs/Fighter ... vering.pdf

Its not just instinct and guts but a lot of practice and thinking for each situation. One must train for years dor everything in courses like these to be become second nature

Also watch the 45min film sponsored by boeing on operation red flag. It traces the experiences of john stratton a 3rd generation pilot driving a f15c

What one gets from it is humility, and its not just about 1 vs 1 sword fighting but system vs system, teamwork and strategy toward end goals that matter
He gets thrashed by aggressor f16 on his first outing
Great air to air footage(imax) and great footage inside the E3 sentry that will explain to you how modern large force air battles are conducted. Red flag is the largest in practice.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2019 18:26

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Mar 2019 18:27

^^^ absolutely essential viewing (singha's post)
its a massive 3D chess game played out in the air with many many constraints
any number of outcomes are possible - under the circumstances, we did very well

the bison was probably taken out by a top cover F16 and not the one being chased, and i think ROE would have played a deciding factor in this case - after all this was a war like situation and not actually a war situation

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Mar 2019 19:03

Don't know if this is the right place to ask. Are we investigating if the MI17 was downed by a TSP missile? Did not find any updates on that.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Mar 2019 19:32

Austin wrote:
Austin wrote:Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke
https://www.businesstoday.in/current/ec ... 24025.html

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

So Bison and 27 UPG have ODL Data link ?

No, they don't. Read it again. There was a datalink between the Flankers that was used to pass information.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Mar 2019 20:26

Question for KM and other gurus, what is the current state of data links between the different fighters in IAF fleet and also other assets like AWACS and ground assets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 20:44

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote: https://www.businesstoday.in/current/ec ... 24025.html

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

So Bison and 27 UPG have ODL Data link ?
No, they don't. Read it again. There was a datalink between the Flankers that was used to pass information.

Yes I read that part but that is 5 yr old info , does Bison and 27UPG have any datalink now ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2019 20:49

I don't understand this curiosity during a conflict?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2019 20:49

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2019 20:51

They have Al Haj Direct Comm Link to unowhere. Why do ppl want to know such things here, and why do they expect anyone to do anything other than lie unless they are idiots and traitors, hain? Ask UBCN, OTOH, u get a credible answer. Always.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 03 Mar 2019 21:15

abhik wrote:Question for KM and other gurus, what is the current state of data links between the different fighters in IAF fleet and also other assets like AWACS and ground assets.

While we are at it, why don't we just give up the position of Nuke Sub currently is too. Seriously?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 21:32

ramana , UB its a know fact that IAF is integrating ODL fleet wide , That has been repeatedly mentioned by IAF since 2011 , Since Birson and perhaps even 27 UPG came late into before ODL came in just trying to understand if Bison was aware of the threats around.

Bison did a successful task by engaging a F-16 Bogie it was the wingman for the F-16 shot that fired 2 AMRAAM one as the Bison and one at his wing man , That is the task of wing man to protect his lead , Just trying to figure out what was Bison wing man who was known to be there and too was attacked by AMRAAM was doing.

Since he successfully managed to evade AMRAAM what did the Bison wingman engaged the shot F-16 ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Mar 2019 21:33

Dilbu wrote:Don't know if this is the right place to ask. Are we investigating if the MI17 was downed by a TSP missile? Did not find any updates on that.

There are images of missile plume in the sky and a hole in the tail of Mi17. It is difficult to confirm if the hole is due to a missile impact.

However IAF has said anything about it been hit and Pak has confirmed, it has nothing to do with it.It was 150KM away from LoC and seem to have happen before PAF attack.

So there is no information. If it was hit, IAF would be boiling to take revenge and an air campaign would have launched against PAF in POK.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 21:33

Vishnu Som is reporting that

GOI sat picture of post strike exist , Spice penetrated the target and went deep before exploding.

1 Mirage 2000 had to abort the mission as the computer malfunctioned and weapons release was aborted.

The Crater shown on Pakistani TV is terroist IED training crater not the spice 2000/1000 because spice penetrates deep before exploding

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Mar 2019 21:40

Austin wrote: Bison did a successful task by engaging a F-16 Bogie it was the wingman for the F-16 shot that fired 2 AMRAAM one as the Bison and one at his wing man , That is the task of wing man to protect his lead , Just trying to figure out what was Bison wing man who was known to be there and too was attacked by AMRAAM was doing.

Since he successfully managed to evade AMRAAM what did the Bison wingman engaged the shot F-16 ?

I don't think it was the wingman. The F16 would have been tasked for A2G and after dropping the LGB would run off as soon as possible. They will not hover or return back. The wingman would be busy hitting his allocated target.

The Aim-120 must have been fired by the escort F16, who were covering the strike and flying higher.
My theory, Mig21 managed to hit it while dropping the LGB or while exiting back. Vinod Som says it was hit by Aim120, while there are other reports that it was hit by SAM?MANPADS or ground fire when it intruded in to POK.

We will know if WC Abhi is allowed to make his action public.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2019 22:11

Amazing 2 part story of 1971 iaf pow escape attempt. Barkha dutt invited wingco Grewal to her new we the people show on tiranga tv.

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/an- ... 130904.htm

Now grewal sir is a straight shooter

He said to her face that entire paki down to schoolkids are indoctrinated to hate the kuffar

He said the “paki awaam is way more dangerous to pilots than their army

once you were out the cockpit you were anybodys meat there”

—-
This would make a good film if done sensibly

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2019 22:16

Mig21 with combat radius of 150km and no refuel probe cannot do loitering cap

It can remain on ground and take off for quick intercept and use afterburner maybe 5 mins max

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 03 Mar 2019 22:18

Austin wrote:ramana , UB its a know fact that IAF is integrating ODL fleet wide , That has been repeatedly mentioned by IAF since 2011 , Since Birson and perhaps even 27 UPG came late into before ODL came in just trying to understand if Bison was aware of the threats around.

Bison did a successful task by engaging a F-16 Bogie it was the wingman for the F-16 shot that fired 2 AMRAAM one as the Bison and one at his wing man , That is the task of wing man to protect his lead , Just trying to figure out what was Bison wing man who was known to be there and too was attacked by AMRAAM was doing.

Since he successfully managed to evade AMRAAM what did the Bison wingman engaged the shot F-16 ?

Curiosity is understandable and everybody on this forum has it, but it's IMHO no reason for anybody (even if they do know) to share classified data that might be valuable to our enemies.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Mar 2019 22:25

Even unclassified data for that matter constitutes OSINT.
Let's not discuss all this now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2019 22:35

Rakesh start bans or close thread.

Tandav, Baikul for starters.
Austin a warning.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2019 22:39

UB its a know fact

Can't speak for ramana, but in my case, NO. I can't understand System of Systems / Net-Centric Warfare gibberish even if it is poured in, diluted with Rooh Afza, into my ears. It goes straight into the pakistan.
And if I don't know, how can Jarnail Abdul Bin Kabul the second-most-knowledgeable person about Indian capabilities vis-a-vis Pak, hain?

Something may be a "known fact" in some obscure location, but collating (and remembering) facts from obscure locations is the essence of Intel-e-jantz work. Ask UBCN-WAG about that. For instance, if u trace back u may find out how we were first to realize that:
(a) MiG was downed by debris from inflating F-16, not ground phyrr or AAM.
(b) Paki mijjiles are spiked by Americans so that they turn 180 if they cross the Yellow Sea and crash.
(c) Paki mijjile Laser Designator points to the nearest pakistan instead of barracks if aimed at a military base, east of the Yellow Sea.
(d) Paki pilots were beaten to death by the Oppressed Classes of Pakistan-Oppressed-Kashmir. Indian was protected by Balwaristan National Front and taken to hospital where of course he had to be handed to PA. They (u can interpret that word) also informed India immediately, before PA could torture him.
(e) Indian "pilot" shown on TV was not Indian pilot but an actor. Imran ul Gujranwali, currently residing Opposite Railway Station, Sialkot. Cannot tell you precise House Number, sorry. Classified.

Also for instance, the face of Air Marshal Bandar Bin Sargodhi may be "known" in the Lahore zoo, but that doesn't mean that RAW (yet) knows that he is a monkey who was trained to start up F-16 engines on the ground and push the "Phyrr Kontrol Radar ON" button back and forth. THAT knowledge may affect judgments on future tactics.
Why is it so necessary to clutter up the Internet with attempts to impress everyone with your knowledge of intricate details? THAT is already also well-known, that you are deeply knowledgeable.

This game is so EZ it is EZier than training Air Marshal Bandar. I think we gave a demo of this waaaay back on the JSF dhaga w.r.t. a (very respected) postor hu shall remain unnamed. Recent efforts however have not succeeded: I think s(he) has wised up.

Sorry, but been at this a loong time. We have got dozens of Pakis (and others) to reveal intimate details about their goats, wives, mijjiles etc, in stubborn efforts to "prove their expertise", just to sit around and laugh (we had no ulterior motives other than that). Rakesh might know of these. This is Interrogation done with no physical violence, NaPentathol etc but is far more effective. But others could. Have motives. May lead to death of our jawans/pilots and others.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2019 22:54

Outta here now, Bredators pls hold off mijjiles. I have Brobojals to write (same level of Detail and Credibility) so I won't bother again anytime soon. Bromij.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2019 23:18

Austin wrote:Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

Interesting but AMRAAM missile warhead is 40 lbs. If it hit would have smashed the MiG to pieces.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 23:20

Air Marshal KK Nohwar Explains How Wg Cdr Abhinandan Shot Down PAF's F 16 Jet in Dog Fight