MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 04 Mar 2019 09:09

The NYT article is an out and out sales job. Indian military old, desperately in need of modern combat aircraft but bad politicians want populism instead of arms purchases.

India is slipping away in more ways than one.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Mar 2019 09:13

SaiK wrote:Pratikji, there is also yet another video about Paki pilot being beaten to death thinking he was an Indian ( oh pakis ). So, perhaps he could be the one (weapons afsar) who actually we are thinking escaped getting killed from Abhhinandan's kill. [no actual video shown, but just a report]

Where is this other video

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Mar 2019 09:18

bkswarti wrote:I dont know why people get so angry if they read an anti-India article. I honestly feel like the article makes some good points. We need to invest more in procurement of state of the art technology and our army, air force and navy are all lacking hugely when it comes to modern technology.

We should take criticism in stride and recognize we have a lot of issues and room to improve.

We need 45 Squadrons or 800 fighter planes to handle a Pak - Chin offensive at the same time. We have ~520 currently; of those 520, 160 are Mig-21 and Mig 27. So that leaves a deficit of 440 aircrafts!!! We only have 28 Tejas and 36 Rafales ordered. How're we ever going to get there.

BKswarti,
The article is BS.
1. Contemptuous reference to WingCo Abhinandan, pilot came back bruised and battered. Really?
2. Zero references to his actions which were to shoot down a F-16. Why?
3. Complete cooked up references to 10 days of intense war ammo etc. No clue of what that 10I means, that its a 2016 era figure and we have moved on, and it refers to extremely high consumption rates.
4. Learn to understand the difference between propaganda and constructive criticism.
5. Its a freaking sales job. Buy American.

disha · Post by **disha** » 04 Mar 2019 09:25

bkswarti wrote:I dont know why people get so angry if they read an anti-India article. I honestly feel like the article makes some good points. We need to invest more in procurement of state of the art technology and our army, air force and navy are all lacking hugely when it comes to modern technology.

BK'ji., the article is garbage. It is okay if you as a trainee come and ask with all humility on how we are investing and procuring state of the art technology and improving ourselves, I am sure everybody will help you find that.

Garbage in is garbage out. I hope you know that maxim. Given that posting garbage brings down the quality of threads. If you want to discuss garbage, and some time it is fun to do so I admit, one has to just go to the bakistani def'n'dumb forum.

We should take criticism in stride and recognize we have a lot of issues and room to improve.

How do you think IAF could take a platform designed in 50's and developed capability to paste F-16? Through constant identification of issues and improvement.

Regarding your query

We need 45 Squadrons or 800 fighter planes to handle a Pak - Chin offensive at the same time.... We only have 28 Tejas and 36 Rafales ordered. How're we ever going to get there.

It turns out that the chances of Pak+Chin offensive at the same time is getting further remote and about the squadron numbers, we will get there - eventually.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 04 Mar 2019 09:25

Y I Patel wrote:The NYT article is an out and out sales job. Indian military old, desperately in need of modern combat aircraft but bad politicians want populism instead of arms purchases.

India is slipping away in more ways than one.

most reporters focused on India region are either pakis or wanna be pakis. ignore such BS farticles

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 04 Mar 2019 09:27

Ardeshir wrote:Glad to know that we can always rely on the NYT to write an anti-India article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/worl ... china.html
After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its ‘Vintage’ Military

India’s armed forces are in alarming shape.

If intense warfare broke out tomorrow, India could supply its troops with only 10 days of ammunition, according to government estimates. And 68 percent of the army’s equipment is so old, it is officially considered “vintage.”

“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.

Excellent, we want more money to buy more arms. Can we get ToT also please.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Mar 2019 09:28

Y I Patel wrote:The NYT article is an out and out sales job. Indian military old, desperately in need of modern combat aircraft but bad politicians want populism instead of arms purchases.

India is slipping away in more ways than one.

Exactly.
"Why This MiG-21 Vs. F-16 Dogfight Heats Up A $15 Billion Fighter Contest" in Investor's Business Daily.
https://www.investors.com/news/mig-21-p ... ocurement/

But the NYT headline:
"After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its ‘Vintage’ Military"
a. India shot down an F-16; Pakistan shot down a Mig21 -- this is at worst a tie. The implicit assumption of the headline is that India did not shoot down an F-16.
b.

While the challenges faced by the India’s armed forces are no secret, its loss of a plane last week to a country whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter of the funding was still telling.

This is nuts. One could equally well say about such when the Taliban kill a US soldier -- a rag-tag group of about 10,000 maximum, able to take on the wealthiest and most technologically-advanced nation on earth that spends $600-$700 billion per year on its military of about 1.3 million people; or the inability of the US to defeat the Taliban, if you want a broader view. Surely it is very telling!

disha · Post by **disha** » 04 Mar 2019 09:38

Ardeshir wrote:Glad to know that we can always rely on the NYT to write an anti-India article.

After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its ‘Vintage’ Military

Sometimes it helps to know about the author. Several of the authors are paid by the piece and to a particular editorial slant. Yup that is a reality, since they do need "fillers" in their sections and for that they need content.

The author details:

Maria Abi-Habib is a South Asia correspondent, based in Delhi. Before joining The New York Times Times in 2017, she was a roving Middle East correspondent for The Wall Street Journal.

In 2012, she was a finalist for the Daniel Pearl Award for an investigation into atrocities at Kabul’s main military hospital, which led to a Congressional probe into two senior American generals leading NATO’s military efforts in Afghanistan. The investigation resulted in the resignation of a three-star U.S. general and sweeping reforms at the hospital. She has also documented the flow of former Guantánamo Bay detainees to the battlefields of Syria, the grooming of child soldiers by Islamic State and U.S. efforts to counter Hezbollah.

Ms. Abi-Habib began her journalism career in 2007, covering the Persian Gulf from Dubai, where she also contributed to coverage revealing high-level corruption across several companies linked to senior Emirati officials.

A graduate of Concordia University in Montreal, she grew up shuttling between the suburbs of Washington, D.C., and her father’s ancestral village in the mountains of Beirut.

In other words, she does not know anything about "Dogfight" and the differences between Mig-21 and F-16.

I bet she does not know that it was Obama in 2014 who supplied 500 AIM missiles to Bakistan

https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/read- ... 452791.htm

The deal was later upgraded to Pakistan acquiring five hundred medium-range air missiles, AIM-120C-5 AMRAAMs, among other weapons from the US defence industry. These air missiles can only be carried in F-16 fighter jets.

F-16 getting pasted is never going to go down well with US. It was Patton tanks once and now F-16.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Mar 2019 09:59

^^^ They captured a pilot and had pictures of a down MiG-21 so without either from the downed F-16 it was always going to be an uphill battle with the West and the rest.

But who gives a flying phuck what they think anyways?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Mar 2019 10:26

I dont know what kind of sadomasochism has India continue to sponsor turds like this Habib, cancel her permit, chuck her out. We should have declared NYT and its sponsors, persona non grata long time back.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 04 Mar 2019 10:57

disha wrote:
bkswarti wrote:I dont know why people get so angry if they read an anti-India article. I honestly feel like the article makes some good points. We need to invest more in procurement of state of the art technology and our army, air force and navy are all lacking hugely when it comes to modern technology.
BK'ji., the article is garbage. It is okay if you as a trainee come and ask with all humility on how we are investing and procuring state of the art technology and improving ourselves, I am sure everybody will help you find that.

It turns out that the chances of Pak+Chin offensive at the same time is getting further remote and about the squadron numbers, we will get there - eventually.

I used to be a BR bhakt back before the complete revamp of the site. But alas, bashing the NYT article has turned to bashing people who want to point out some good points the article makes. Yes, the articles headlines and their version of the events is biased. Hell, I know NYT has a very anti-india bias when it comes to Pak/Kashmir issues, but we must not dismiss everything just because we see NYT as a firangi news source. Our desi news source isn't any less biased.

Also, The number of squadrons required comes from IAF's demands, from their assessment; not my desires. As unlikely you may think a combined Pak - chin offensive may be; it honestly only just means a Chin offensive. Chinis will either convince the Pakis to join or the pakis will join seeing their opportunity without any thought. So, it is definitely a scenario we must prepare for.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2019 11:08

Damn why cant the Americans just take a physical inventory of those F-16's and make it honestly publically available.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2019 11:09

there are plenty of local articles pointing out the need for fleet revamp incl shiv aroors latest on tejas. saurabh jha has been on it for years.

we dont need to refer NYT for that.

we all know which regimes turned a indifferent eye to IAFs fleet needs. and to an extent iaf top brass also at fault for not taking an early interest to drive tejas project.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2019 11:10

Aditya_V wrote:Damn why cant the Americans just take a physical inventory of those F-16's and make it honestly publically available.

Paks could also produce the named pilot. though that would not disprove that someone else was in there.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2019 11:32

In few weeks , months time PAF will put up a news of F-16 loss in a Crash , That would account for their loss .....It would be too much of a H&D issue for PAF to admit any of its Fighter loss to IAF much less their Tip of the Spear , F-16

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2019 11:32

IAF decoy fighters distracted Pakistan air patrols

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 239372.cms

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Mar 2019 11:34

Austin wrote:In few weeks , months time PAF will put up a news of F-16 loss in a Crash , That would account for their loss .....It would be too much of a H&D issue for PAF to admit any of its Fighter loss to IAF much less their Tip of the Spear , F-16

Do F-16s have flight data recorders, and is the US likely to ask for the flight data recorder for any crash?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2019 11:44

It wont matter of FDR exisit or not , From what I know in peace time ops fighter do carry FDR or similar device but even the FDR can get destroyed or not found.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Mar 2019 12:09

Aditya_V wrote:Damn why cant the Americans just take a physical inventory of those F-16's and make it honestly publically available.

it would be in the US interest to deny that such an encounter ever took place.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2019 12:11

I know just expressing my frustration, how since the parachutes and debris landing a few km west of the LOC has saved the PAF from being exposed to the truth.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2019 12:47

I just hope that jokers in the opposition buy garbage like that nyt article and force the GOI to make some emergency purchases. my feeling is that 2022 is when things will come to a head, latest. For the IAF at current projections, we are looking at 32 sqds including 2 rafale, 1 MKI, 1 M29. if they still operate some bisons at that time, say 34 sqds. I think some more quick purchases could help. Ideally an extra Tejas mk1 plus assorted m2ks. I'd like to see that number go to 39.5. Perhaps an extra Awacs also. The s400 will certainly help along with more Akash sqds.

For Navy, I'd like to see those extra choppers from US stocks to be purchased asap. Along with other helos and perhaps a few minesweepers from any extra inventory.

These are intermediate and emergency purchases over and above planned long term investments.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Mar 2019 13:09

Cain Marko wrote:I just hope that jokers in the opposition buy garbage like that nyt article and force the GOI to make some emergency purchases. my feeling is that 2022 is when things will come to a head, latest. For the IAF at current projections, we are looking at 32 sqds including 2 rafale, 1 MKI, 1 M29. if they still operate some bisons at that time, say 34 sqds. I think some more quick purchases could help. Ideally an extra Tejas mk1 plus assorted m2ks. I'd like to see that number go to 39.5. Perhaps an extra Awacs also. The s400 will certainly help along with more Akash sqds.

For Navy, I'd like to see those extra choppers from US stocks to be purchased asap. Along with other helos and perhaps a few minesweepers from any extra inventory.

These are intermediate and emergency purchases over and above planned long term investments.

this is the fastest way to drive up prices and invite slimy snakes to profit.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2019 13:18

^Whats they point in letting the damn mod sit on files for decades? Like that doesn't drive up costs? Just look at what happened with the Jag engine fiasco.

At least this way the forces get what is needed. Especially when the new mandate of non military strikes needs to be enforced.

More importantly, if you notice, most of the above purchases are already priced...eg Hal has offered to build mkis at current prices, rafale had a clause for follow on orders, Tejas is local and m29 smts are not expensive to begin with. Yeah, additional mirages might cost a bit but then there are ways to go around them.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Mar 2019 14:03

Only speculation as of now. No definite proof:
1. Downed F-16 was a twin seater with 1 Paki and 1 Saudi/Jordanian pilot.
2. 1 pilot who was reportedly lynched was probably the foreigner one. Paki died in crash.
3. Fits in with reports of 3 parachute sightings & some rumours

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2019 14:19

paks have no need for saudi or jordanian pilots to fly combat missions though some may come on exchange visits.
i dont think their home countries would authorize them.

jordan sold their f-16 to pak and turkey upgraded them on the way.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2019 14:19

WHy would Jordan/Saudi pilots fly for the PAF, I find this part hard to believe?

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Mar 2019 14:20

here is the 2 parachute video, both are from same plane I believe.
around 0:14, you can see both parachutes in 1 frame

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Mar 2019 14:43

There were two parachutes from the plane.
Reportedly, one pilot was found alive and lynched by Paki civilians. Why'd it happen unless he couldn't speak Urdu, Punjabi or any local language or seemed Pakistani ?
Early reports also said that one pilot was killed in crash while other was on run.
Pakis are also hiding something.

There were strong rumours of some Saudi planes in Paksitan after incident. Does any one have reliable data of flighs landing and flying out of Pakistan of this time period ?

Even I don't know why Arabs will fly paki planes when it's the other way around.
One CT is that the downed F-16 was not meant to cross LoC and foreign pilot was on for combat experience or a joyride. The two seater one could be for target painting, intelligence gathering or some other non-combat role.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2019 14:52

habal wrote:here is the 2 parachute video, both are from same plane I believe.
around 0:14, you can see both parachutes in 1 frame

Interesting video this. The people in it clearly are shouting about 2 parachutes. Now there is audio and video confirmation of the downed f16. So far the most convincing unofficial piece of evidence imho.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Mar 2019 14:54

Cain Marko wrote:^Whats they point in letting the damn mod sit on files for decades? Like that doesn't drive up costs? Just look at what happened with the Jag engine fiasco.

At least this way the forces get what is needed. Especially when the new mandate of non military strikes needs to be enforced.

More importantly, if you notice, most of the above purchases are already priced...eg Hal has offered to build mkis at current prices, rafale had a clause for follow on orders, Tejas is local and m29 smts are not expensive to begin with. Yeah, additional mirages might cost a bit but then there are ways to go around them.

MoD baboo(n)s and the politicos are being paid off to delay critical purchases.

Do you really think that many goras out there including the hans as well as the pakis are happy with India's change of stance?? They are aghast as well as devastated.

A docile India is very much preferred, both for investment, as well as, for subversion.

Ever wonder why BPJs procurement for the IA and other security forces was kept pending for so many long years??

twitter

Because large swathes of the international media have a congenital, reflexive bias against India which is overtaking Western economies, one by one, despite being colonised & economically devastated for nearly 2 centuries. Envy & racism form a toxic mix

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Mar 2019 15:04

bkswarti wrote:I used to be a BR bhakt back before the complete revamp of the site. But alas, bashing the NYT article has turned to bashing people who want to point out some good points the article makes. Yes, the articles headlines and their version of the events is biased. Hell, I know NYT has a very anti-india bias when it comes to Pak/Kashmir issues, but we must not dismiss everything just because we see NYT as a firangi news source. Our desi news source isn't any less biased.

"BR bhakt" very interesting use of terms. The term bhakt is used derogatorily to refer to nationalists who support the GOI. So is it a similar case here?
Next, even though its been pointed out the NYT article is flawed. We have enough local press which is less biased and more sincere.

Also, The number of squadrons required comes from IAF's demands, from their assessment; not my desires. As unlikely you may think a combined Pak - chin offensive may be; it honestly only just means a Chin offensive. Chinis will either convince the Pakis to join or the pakis will join seeing their opportunity without any thought. So, it is definitely a scenario we must prepare for.

The IAFs 42 squadron needs are well known.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Mar 2019 15:05

Pathik wrote:There are two videos on Liveleak website of the aftermath of the two PAF jets on the ground with a pilot killed and one being spoken to by the public. Not sure if this is some propaganda but looks real as I havent seen these on Indian sites. They are on probably on page 2 or 3 on Liveleak.com now, not posting links here as it could be a potentially NSFW site.

Please post the links with a large NSFW tag, or download the videos and upload them to youtube. I hope there are no viruses.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2019 15:29

chetak wrote:[
MoD baboo(n)s and the politicos are being paid off to delay critical purchases.

Precisely why a purchase of aforementioned hardware now, when public opinion is fully in favor would be a good idea.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Mar 2019 15:39

jamwal wrote:There were two parachutes from the plane.
Reportedly, one pilot was found alive and lynched by Paki civilians. Why'd it happen unless he couldn't speak Urdu, Punjabi or any local language or seemed Pakistani ?
Early reports also said that one pilot was killed in crash while other was on run.
Pakis are also hiding something.

Pilots after ejection are generally disoriented. Moreover given the TFTA propaganda, mango abdul would think only IAF jets are shot down. This also happened after our attack on Balakot, so people in POK would believe, this is another IAF attack and since PAF is unbeatable, they are thrashing an IAF pilot.

If you have seen the video of WC Abhi's capture, the aam abdul was the first to arrive and start giving blows. He did not stop to ask. That's is why he was bloodied. It was Pak soldiers who intervened.

And i think the flying suits are similar. But then mango abdul would not have seen an IAF pilot in real life.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Mar 2019 15:51

To add to Nams point, many ejections result in injuries. What if the missile strike on his plane resulted in the pilot being incapacitated in some form. These everyday Pakistani are absolute and total idiots, and the way they operate, pack mentality etc, its very possible they lynched their own pilot.

gunnvant · Post by **gunnvant** » 04 Mar 2019 16:03

Pathik wrote:There are two videos on Liveleak website of the aftermath of the two PAF jets on the ground with a pilot killed and one being spoken to by the public. Not sure if this is some propaganda but looks real as I havent seen these on Indian sites. They are on probably on page 2 or 3 on Liveleak.com now, not posting links here as it could be a potentially NSFW site.

Can you please either upload or share links in pm?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Mar 2019 16:04

Karan M wrote:To add to Nams point, many ejections result in injuries. What if the missile strike on his plane resulted in the pilot being incapacitated in some form. These everyday Pakistani are absolute and total idiots, and the way they operate, pack mentality etc, its very possible they lynched their own pilot.

only way I can think of is, a local rumor that Indians are bombing again. They just had no reason to suspect that the downed pilot could be theirs. They never even bothered to question or find out before lynching.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2019 16:10

Per grewal sir on barkha dutt show the pak awaam are way more dangerous than their uniformed forces

He said if you fall out of cockpit its open season and you are everybodys meat down there

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Mar 2019 16:28

Come on folks!! Would aam bearded abdul think that their TFTA demi god pilots flying the djinn powered aircraft will ever have to eject? If there is a pilot, that will be yindoo from the rickety old russian jalopy onlee.

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 04 Mar 2019 16:41

I will sure look out for all paki pilots start wearing shoulder patch proclaiming "مچ چٹائی میاں پاکستان". That's "maar mat yaar, Mai Pakistani hu" in Urdu.