MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 05 Mar 2019 09:25

A pukeworthy attempt by xxx to reconstruct the events leading to the WingCo’s capture and subsequent release. Mostly based on paki propaganda. IAF & Wing Co. should sue their asses!

..............

Edited by KM

Anish - if its that bad, dont post it, why give them oxygen.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Mar 2019 09:28

I think focus on squadron 19, not the garbled name of the pilot.

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F ... 019%20sqn/

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Mar 2019 09:41

Thanks for the interesting bits from the article. F-16 getting pasted is going to impact the 2000+ exported F-16s replacements.

Rakesh wrote: And then the article quotes then Defence Secretary James Mattis about the US Indo-Pacific Command keeping watch from Hollywood to Bollywood. I am not making that bit up, go read the article. Yes, the Americans are ensuring that India's Hindi film industry will survive any attack from China or any other enemy. That Saving Bollywood promise will go a long way in cementing ties between our two nations. That Shah Rukh Khan and Hrithik Roshan will survive an attack makes me so much happier!

That explains why 'Mad Dog' Mattis was fired by Trump

- Looks like he was interested in saving Bollywood male leads only!

Seriously, if people think NY Times is objective, then I have a Red fort in Bangalore, Kerala to sell. It will go and collect a cheque from lockheed martin. They have a multi-billion dollar arm industry to defend. And cannot lose it to Russia or China (or India).

This is just a start, I expect all and sundry to gaslight IAF's version as days go by.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2019 10:20

unlike the later model F16s which grew heavier all over (mutli role bomber also), these F16 ADF are where the initial concept was around block15-20- a very agile and formidable dogfighter with a graceful fuselage and the best bubble canopy. now with upgraded radar and amraam, they have bvr capability also.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2019 10:28

squadron patch of 51 sq srinagar posted by rahul singh on twitter

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 05 Mar 2019 10:54

Najunamar wrote:Also, who was the wingmate of the killed PAF pilot? There are rumors he may have been a trainee from Jordan and the Jordan king is pressuring Pakis to stay mum on the subject..

That makes absolutely no sense.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 05 Mar 2019 11:36

Mihir wrote:
tandav wrote:
This is by far the most convincing video evidence that I have seen which supports the assertion that were atleast 2 parachutes and IAF claims were correct. However to my untrained eye I could not even see single parachute in this video. One person exclaims that only one parachute and only others mention that there are 2 maybe even 3. Is it possible to for someone to really dig in an with some serious image processing and digout how many parachutes are there. In a week or so things will be more clear
Where do you guys see two parachutes? I can only see one. It has been more-or-less established that this video is of Wing Commander Abhinandan's downing.

I could not identify even one parachute in this clip (however I am going by the verbal exchange which has some merit). The observers initially say 1 and then other person says 2 and then just before the clip ends one person says 3. It is possible that the observers were mistaken in identifying more than 1 parachute. Let us wait for more confirmation

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Mar 2019 12:17

I could not even see one..

Then I realised I did not have my magnifying glasses on.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2019 12:44

Seems folks at f16.net don’t believe paf f-16 is down instead they think mki was also shot by f-16

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2019 13:04

Austin wrote:Seems folks at f16.net don’t believe paf f-16 is down instead they think mki was also shot by f-16

What else does one expect from F-16 fanboys?

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 05 Mar 2019 13:07

ramana wrote:
IndraD wrote:Pakistan subjected Wing Commander Abhinandan to loud music & bright lights to break him
https://theprint.in/defence/pakistan-su ... im/201098/
also pic appears on SM where he seems to have been subjected to narco test
Sufi music from Nus RAT Fat eh Ali Khan?

No sir Tauba Tauba video in non-stop loop. Poor guys developed a tummy ache by continuously laughing.

ryogi · Post by **ryogi** » 05 Mar 2019 13:17

A personal anecdote:

Father was a Mig-21 Jockey, had back issues so was shifted into Pechoras. I was 15 and life goal was to be a F(P) too. One day visited a co-located Bis (not Bison, mind) Sqn 'somewhere in the western sector'. Had breakfast, hung out in the crew room. Along with the usual Playboy Bunnies, pride of place was given to a massive (almost wall-covering) poster of the F-16. I remember asking about it, and the reply was 'we study it-that's the enemy'. That was around 1992.

Tells me that for 25 years, our MiG-21 boys have had these Nibba Solahs in their sights. They have been studying, analysing, gaming them, and have no fear of these much-vaunted machines. The boys knew that solah inside-out, almost as well as their own aircraft.

I'm glad that in the end it was a Mig-21 that took down the pride of the PAF. I can just imagine the whoops of joy that must have been ringing out in AF messes all over the country.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Mar 2019 13:53

twitter

Taiwan Air Force calls out yet another Pak media/ISI lie: part of #AMRAAM missile displayed by India from F-16 shot down by #IAF MIG-21 “did not come from us”.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2019 15:43

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa's Press Briefing , Confirms loss of F-16 aircraft and AMRAAM fired and Sucessful Hit at Targets

ryogi · Post by **ryogi** » 05 Mar 2019 16:12

This is a vlogger, Amrikki, 'aviation enthusiast' that is pretty sure that the Pakis are lying. Comment section is interesting.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvv2tzGYNfk[/youtube]

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2019 16:48

Another dead give away that it was indeed F16 down was while everyone was posing with the Mig 21 fuselage, The parts of the aircraft were loaded on Pakistani Army trucks. That's cause when US comes for quarterly inspection a Paki statement of losses will not be enough, debris will have to shown otherwise Pakis can smuggle an aircraft to China like they did earlier. If it was mirage or JF 17 such an urgency to recover debris would not have been there

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 05 Mar 2019 16:56

fixed

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 05 Mar 2019 16:56

ryogi wrote:This is a vlogger, Amrikki, 'aviation enthusiast' that is pretty sure that the Pakis are lying. Comment section is interesting.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvv2tzGYNfk[/youtube]

Fixed link.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 05 Mar 2019 17:09

in comment section many Pks are panting that it was JF17 and not F16...

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Mar 2019 18:19

Who's lying? Americans. About what happened in Syria-Iraq.
I wonder when India is going start serial production of Su-24 - Need about 100 to counter the 5000 F-35s that are going to be sold worldwide.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 Mar 2019 18:37

UlanBatori wrote:Who's lying? Americans. About what happened in Syria-Iraq.
I wonder when India is going start serial production of Su-24 - Need about 100 to counter the 5000 F-35s that are going to be sold worldwide.

Su-24?

Ramnath · Post by **Ramnath** » 05 Mar 2019 19:19

First time poster, so please excuse unintentional transgressions.

I listen to NPR news during the morning commute and today they had news about arrests made in Pakistan. As part of this segment, they said "India and Pakistan have shot each other's military jets". Previously, this used to be "claimed to have shot down each other's jets". While all that matters for us Indians is what is the IAF/GoI position, it felt good to see NPR reporting 'evolve'. NPR at least maintains a veneer of responsible reporting and I think they choose their wording carefully.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2019 19:23

JTull wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Who's lying? Americans. About what happened in Syria-Iraq.
I wonder when India is going start serial production of Su-24 - Need about 100 to counter the 5000 F-35s that are going to be sold worldwide.
Su-24?

He meant that sarcastically

UB, let us go easy on Pinglish and sarcasm. Thanks.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 05 Mar 2019 19:56

Ok, as a hypothetical exercise, can AMRAAMS be fired from JF-17? A jet that uses a Chinese radar? And if that is the case, we should push Americans to allow mating AMRAAMS to EL-2052. After all, it is an israeli radar. Surely America can do that for a long time ally if it can do it for a pseudo enemy like China. I believe this is where we should be nailing them, to push America to sanction and ground the entire Paki fleet.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Mar 2019 20:17

No. The Pakis and the Chinese will have to hack into the missile system’s software and interface it with the Chinese radar. Easier said than done.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Mar 2019 20:44

That American ? with the Liar Liar ugly mug needs to be told off, which is what I suggested to teetar warriors. The Su-24 suggestion will get his goatee. Sorry that some of our BRF Tech jeeniuses have neither the Net-Centric-Warfare (teetar) sense nor the sense of humor to see that. Rakesh I am sure will understand the value of the suggestion?

Seriously:

Su-24 is I think faster than F-35 Navy version, can carry more payload, has a swing-wing, is "nuclear-capable", can do ground attack/low-level role, and I am sure fire BVR missiles. Plus (Brarji read & weep

): " first of the USSR's aircraft to carry an integrated digital navigation/attack system" (IOW, "net-centric warfare") Plus the immense bonus: it is actually shown to work. It did the bulk of the "work" in Syria killing the ISIS -MUCH more than F-35/22/15/16/B-52 all did together. Yes, I think Indian planners need to think a bit beyond all the glitz, based on the realities. In 1965 it was the Gnat and Hunter that won the day and prevented IAF from being destroyed, defeating the "vastly superior" Sabres. In 1971 it was Hunters and Su-7s and MiG-21s (and Gnats?) plus some HF-24s, all hugely dissed by "our" media and experts. Against F-104 Starfighters as well as B-58s, and other high-line "western" craft.

In 1999 it was the old Mirage 2000s (also 1970s vintage) that proved able to blast the Pakis off the ridges using LGBs (modified in India IIRC?), where other "ground-attack" specialists such as Jaguar, as well as the top-of-the line Russians such as Su-27 were not of great use. Since PAF sat on their thumbs there was not much call for the MiG-21s to take out the F-16s.

Now we see what happens when a $5M MiG-21 on verge of being junked, takes on an $80M (begged I know) F-16 in one-on-one, extended dogfight.
As Boby Dylan crooned:

How many (wins) does to it take 'fore he (IAF/GOI) sees
that too many wins have been won (and ignored)?

Even the MiG-21: there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the basic aerodynamic design. The moving-cone intake is sheer brilliance. Sure they need new metal (fatigue limits must be close), new fasteners (maybe all composite wings and carbon-carbon nose cone for stealth?) Just cleaning up the wing fasteners may add a good amount to range and speed, and reduce specific fuel consumption. Some leading edge devices are needed to bring down the landing speed: the clean triangular delta with sharp edges is pretty 1960s, I think modern wing design can do better. Maybe a slight diameter growth to accommodate higher-bypass engine? Thrust reverser on bypass flow? Thrust vectoring on main nozzle?

This should be LCA-2, complimentary to the lower-speed, augmented-stability, highly- maneuverable Mach 1.6 version. Call it TejasWin 2019. A Mach 2.6 MiG Biss to remind Bakis of 2019. Build 2000. Maybe make them UAVs, but how do you train a control system to have the smarts and instinctive reactions of a WCdr Abhi?

Meanwhile, build 250 Su-24BIS at $10M per unit. Use the swing-wing for very short/ rough field takeoff and landing. You can be sure that F-35 is coming to India's neighborhood. ESP after this HUGE H&D hit on both PAF and LMAS.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Mar 2019 21:12

The other lesson from this whole tamasha is that at the end of the day these planes are platforms for missiles or smart munitions. UCAVs with SPICES would do just as well or better, and if a few get shot down in terroristan there is nothing to weep about. The return strikes from TSPAF can be met by swarms of missiles from high-altitude UCAVs with 1 or 2 controlling aircraft, and even those can have their controllers sitting on (preferably well under) the ground. What is alarming to see is India's still total dependence on Brave Soldiers winning by utter Heroism Beyond The Call Of Duty etc. There is not even discussion on that.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2019 21:15

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1567576

In the morning of 27 Feb 19, our Air Defence system was on full alert. Build up of PAF aircraft on their side of LoC was noticed in time and additional aircraft were scrambled to tackle the adversary. In their attempt to attack our ground targets, PAF aircraft were engaged effectively. From IAF side, Mirage-2000, Su-30 and MiG-21 Bison aircraft were involved in the engagement. PAF aircraft were forced to withdraw in a hurry, which is also evident from large missed distances of the weapons dropped by them. During combat, use of F-16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile. Parts of the missile fell in area East of Rajouri in J&K, injuring a civilian on ground. Detailed report in this regard has already been released by IAF. All the Su-30 aircraft engaged in combat landed back safely. False claim by Pakistan of shooting down a Su-30, appears to be a cover up for loss of its own aircraft..

Clearly we were following ROE and Pakis did not follow any rules. Time we should ambush some of their aircraft. Looking at the Multiple launches, it looks like more than 2 launches.

As a rule we should know especially the Pakistani military do not play by the rules

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 05 Mar 2019 21:30

MKI Defeating AIM 120-C5’s per press release is also very significant achievement .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2019 21:32

Yes but MKI not firing R-77 R-27 at multiple bogies respecting ROE is also significant.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Mar 2019 21:53

1) AMRAAM was a known commodity for the IAF..they would have planned for it .. Isrealis also use the same Missile. So i am sure we would have catered for it. I dont know how true but I read , defeating electronically ( thru jammers) a AMRAAM or any missile also depends on seperation of the two a/c. Also read that jammers work better on smaller aircrafts... so a 8222 jammer works better on a Mirage as compared to Su 30. But good to learn that they defeated 2) the missile launches are detected by AWACS also?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Mar 2019 22:01

someone was complaining about absence of MAWS in IAF ...if we didnt have MAWS how did Su's detect and defeat AMRAAM? pl clarify...thoda technical subject hai. or the 8222 jammers also act as maws??

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Mar 2019 22:04

AMRAAM/ARH missile launches can be detected by RWR...MANPADS can detect both IR & Radar guided missiles. They are more useful to detect passive missile launches like IR/IIR guided missile.

Perhaps MKI were carrying Russian SAP-518 jamming pods on the wingtips which helped them defeat AMRAAM (pure speculation on my part onlee...). Karan can throw much clearer light on this. Anyways, DARE is developing an indigenous jamming pod solution which should offer better performance & integration with Dhruti RWR & enhancing further the EW capabilities of MKI.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 05 Mar 2019 22:04

UlanBatori wrote: Even the MiG-21: there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the basic aerodynamic design. The moving-cone intake is sheer brilliance. Sure they need new metal (fatigue limits must be close), new fasteners (maybe all composite wings and carbon-carbon nose cone for stealth?) Just cleaning up the wing fasteners may add a good amount to range and speed, and reduce specific fuel consumption. Some leading edge devices are needed to bring down the landing speed: the clean triangular delta with sharp edges is pretty 1960s, I think modern wing design can do better. Maybe a slight diameter growth to accommodate higher-bypass engine? Thrust reverser on bypass flow? Thrust vectoring on main nozzle?

This should be LCA-2, complimentary to the lower-speed, augmented-stability, highly- maneuverable Mach 1.6 version. Call it TejasWin 2019. A Mach 2.6 MiG Biss to remind Bakis of 2019. Build 2000. Maybe make them UAVs, but how do you train a control system to have the smarts and instinctive reactions of a WCdr Abhi?

This sounds like a great idea! From what you have said, the mig-21 design is built for speed and interception. Earlier posts have discussed how its difficult to have SAMs covering a large border like India's. If we have a pure interceptor UAV designed from the mig-21, it could even be faster (when you remove the cockpit, use composites where possible, etc) and used to rapidly ferry missiles to the location of intruding aircraft. It would be a big brahmos with wing and used as a missile carrier to bring the AAMs rapidly in range. Would stealth really matter in such a role? I'm sure it could also be used to make fast bombing runs...

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Mar 2019 22:15

Aditya_V wrote:Yes but MKI not firing R-77 R-27 at multiple bogies respecting ROE is also significant.

I was toeing the ROE line a few pages upthread but this new information is a little confusing. If an amraam is fired at you, should the roe not be to let the bars do its work and kill a few vipers. Or were the crew too busy with counter measures and the porkis escaped by the time they defeated the missile? The mki has proven itself vs the solah over and over in exercises with the yanks and the Singaporeans... Perhaps its time to unshackle the roe and let them do their job. This is also where the tejas with its low rcs is needed at the borders asap. The only time the solahs would have realized anything is wrong is when their rwrs lit up and they had a salvo of derbys up their rear end. I am not trying to second guess the IAF tactics but a golden opportunity to dent the paf seems to have been missed.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Mar 2019 22:16

Zynda wrote:AMRAAM/ARH missile launches can be detected by RWR

I am not sure RWR can detect launches. It can detect radar lock from the FCR and when the BVR seeker locks on the target.

The FCR can probably detect the BVR homing in.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Mar 2019 22:21

The AVM's presentation (on "National Defence" (ughh!)) said that MiG-21 has a very small frontal area, and hence is v. difficult to detect visually. (Mattered in Vietnam for F-4 vs. Mig-21) I assume that RCS is also small? Going to Carbon-carbon or some such nose cone may also help, though I read some jingos discussing radar thingies installed inside the nose cone (I wouldn't know). But yes, get away from the cockpit size constraints and you could have much better performance.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Mar 2019 22:24

Bharadwaj wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Yes but MKI not firing R-77 R-27 at multiple bogies respecting ROE is also significant.
I was toeing the ROE line a few pages upthread but this new information is a little confusing. If an amraam is fired at you, should the roe not be to let the bars do its work and kill a few vipers. Or were the crew too busy with counter measures and the porkis escaped by the time they defeated the missile? The mki has proven itself vs the solah over and over in exercises with the yanks and the Singaporeans... Perhaps its time to unshackle the roe and let them do their job.

Could be that the Ayf Sola Mard-e-shaheens turned to a wonderful Paki military practice of precise downhill skiing,immediately after the botched Su30 attack and the fastest one to give them chase were the Bisons led by Wing Commander Varthaman.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Mar 2019 22:26

nam wrote:
Zynda wrote:AMRAAM/ARH missile launches can be detected by RWR
I am not sure RWR can detect launches. It can detect radar lock from the FCR and when the BVR seeker locks on the target.

The FCR can probably detect the BVR homing in.

Thanks, thats what I meant when I wrote "launches"...can detect aircraft FCR & missile seeker locks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2019 22:27

UlanBatori wrote:The AVM's presentation (on "National Defence" (ughh!)) said that MiG-21 has a very small frontal area, and hence is v. difficult to detect visually. (Mattered in Vietnam for F-4 vs. Mig-21) I assume that RCS is also small? Going to Carbon-carbon or some such nose cone may also help, though I read some jingos discussing radar thingies installed inside the nose cone (I wouldn't know). But yes, get away from the cockpit size constraints and you could have much better performance.

The Mig-21 has a frontal RCS of 1m2 and with Bison they have applied RAM on the surface to make its reduce its RCS further.

Considering Mig-21 dont carry higher number of payload on external pylon their RCS wont get impacted significantly compared to other 4th Gen types which has multiple pylon and payloads to carry