MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2019 02:09

Austin wrote:


Ministry of Defence
Press Statement
Posted On: 05 MAR 2019 8:16PM by PIB Delhi

In the morning of 27 Feb 19, our Air Defence system was on full alert. Build up of PAF aircraft on their side of LoC was noticed in time and additional aircraft were scrambled to tackle the adversary. In their attempt to attack our ground targets, PAF aircraft were engaged effectively. From IAF side, Mirage-2000, Su-30 and MiG-21 Bison aircraft were involved in the engagement. PAF aircraft were forced to withdraw in a hurry, which is also evident from large missed distances of the weapons dropped by them. During combat, use of F-16 by PAF and multiple launches of AMRAAM were conclusively observed. Prompt and correct tactical action by Su-30 aircraft, in response to AMRAAM launch, defeated the missile. Parts of the missile fell in area East of Rajouri in J&K, injuring a civilian on ground. Detailed report in this regard has already been released by IAF. All the Su-30 aircraft engaged in combat landed back safely. False claim by Pakistan of shooting down a Su-30, appears to be a cover up for loss of its own aircraft..



So it was a big air battle with PAF strike and fighters and IAF fighter aircraft. Quite big melee.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 06 Mar 2019 02:12

If there ever was a dissimilar modern combat in real life, this was it.

There was 6 types in the air, potentially two AWACS.

Large front attack, surge, LGB, Standoff PGM, CCM, BVR, ECM, may be ground fire as well, you name it. It was there. :D

Khan has been so far carrying out one sided fights.

Probably the first modern air battle on 21 century with all the buzz words thrown in..
Last edited by nam on 06 Mar 2019 02:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2019 02:32

Not to mention the ancient Pakiness of beating the helpless pilots to death. Their own.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 06 Mar 2019 02:35

Big air battle, with a tremendous fog of war I am sure. BVR shots being taken when the airspace was not closed to Civilian aircraft just shows how irresponsible the Jihadi Air Farce is. Were there any civil aircraft in the air, in the vicinity at the time?

I 'feel' (based on nothing), that the IAF ROE would have been to station aircraft in the way of the attacking force and turn on their fire control radars and lock on to the attackers, rather than shooting at them. Our goal has been to deter any Pakistani counter strike, and not escalate the matter. This is evident by the 'non military strike' verbiage.

Only when it became clear that missiles and other weapons were launched that the clearance to shoot back would have come, and at that time, the Mig 21 was the closest, perhaps in WVR. And when it became clear that a missile had been launched, it fired its own R73.

Next time these guys come close to the border like this, I am sure they will get a few long range BVR shots up their noses.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2019 02:46

If multiple AMRAAMs missed IAF fighters - and one R-73 could not be evaded by Paki top-of-the-line 2-seater ECM/ Laser designator djinn fighter flown by Wing Cdr.. and their pilots got beaten to death by POK residents.. no wonder the PAF is quiet. I would think the Air Commode or AVM responsible for that mission has been "promoted" to Permanent Latrine Orderly (PLO) at Sargodha.
The Herrows didn't even hang around to keep watch over their fallen comrades, they were in such a hurry to vamoose!!! A couple of close passes would have scattered the lynch mobs. But nooooo...
What exactly was their Mission Plan I wonder: 2-seater F-16 shines the laser on the Brigade HQ, 20 others release LGBs. But didn't they think of the possibility that they MIGHT have to provide cover for said F-16? In American football, this is like entire Offensive Line standing around picking their noses or scratching their asses, while the 300lb Defensive Back breaks through and absolutely wipes out the Quarterback. Nice going!!!!

Please consider what UBCN reported: Paki AMRAAMs, AIMs etc are programmed to go bonkers once East of the LOC.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 06 Mar 2019 02:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Mar 2019 02:48

^^we have a lot of new members.
1. would be good to have forum guidelines
2. some welcome mail, having gone through those stages long back i can relate to it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shameek » 06 Mar 2019 02:51

There is a HUD video on YouTube of 2 US F-14's in a 'dogfight' against Libyan MiG 23s sometime in the 80s. Its a 2 on 2 scenario over open ocean and yet everything is confusing to common people like us and before you know it things are over.

This situation had so many more variables and our pilots showed us the value of relentless training and how it pays off when you need it the most.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 06 Mar 2019 03:01

All Pak claims are from tweeter jokers and media cronies in Pak. No offical word. The two pilots claimed to have shot 2 jets seem to be F16 pilots!

IAF has been on record that F16 was shot down.

Has anyone seen PAF offical claim? Not hearsay or media claims.


I have a feeling PAF does not want to make a public claim of 2 jets.I think the claim took a life of it's own in Pak circle after Ghafoor's tweet..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2019 03:31

Check Yawn...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Atmavik » 06 Mar 2019 04:03

UlanBatori wrote:Check Yawn...


Yak hearder sahib, i usually check Yawn when visiting pak ish tan. what is new in there ??

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 06 Mar 2019 06:38

SidSoma wrote:Why no SAMs fired. Were the PAF engaged by air artillery. How many craft were detected and what types ?

How many platforms shot these missiles. How many missiles were fired. Any other missiles fired ?

Why do you want to know all these details?

SidSoma wrote:The Mi-17 was shot down from the Su-30 and it was a classical case of fratricide. The Western air commander was 'Kicked' out due to Mi-17 and other tactical errors.

Do you have a source for this? No, baki propaganda don't count.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 06 Mar 2019 06:44

All Rant points noted. Moving on.

Well this much is fairly certain. PAF has thrown its best BVR at our Su-30 (as usual cheap shot) and come out dud. Which means that the air battle will move to a WVR space. Would the F-16 chance a WVR battle with an SU-30 (which also can carry the R-73), very unlikely. This is undeniable proof that we hold all the aces and should smash the hopes of PAF.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2019 06:45

After the NYT article... ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7699&p=2330867#p2330867

...comes this gem. See below...Boeing and Lockheed Martin are really piling on the pressure :lol:

India’s Dogfight Loss Could Be a Win for U.S. Weapons-Makers
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/05/in ... -pakistan/

The MiG-21 was not so lucky. Images of the wreckage quickly emerged on social media, as did the remnants of a U.S.-made AIM-120 air-to-air missile that India said was possibly used to shoot it down.

Thank you for admitting that PAF F-16s were actually used in combat :lol:

In addition to the immediate cash value for whichever company wins the work, India’s fighter replacement also offers Boeing and Lockheed the opportunity to extend the production of legacy systems that are reaching the end of their service lives.

What can one say to the above? :lol:

“It is hard to sell a front-line fighter to a country that isn’t threatened,” said Loren Thompson, an analyst with the Lexington Institute. “Boeing and Lockheed Martin both have a better chance of selling now because suddenly India feels threatened.”

Feel Threatened = Buy American Fighters

“The dogfight with Pakistan has moved fighter modernization higher on Mr. Modi’s list of priorities,” said Thompson, calling the incident an “embarrassment.” Thompson’s think tank receives funding from a range of firms including Lockheed and Boeing.

Did Boeing and Lockheed write the article? :mrgreen:

“One would hope that this would lead to an attack of common sense and good government,” Aboulafia said but cautioned that an acceleration of the effort is far from guaranteed. “The track record is nothing short of awful.”

Common Sense & Good Governance = Buy American Fighters
No Sense & Bad Governance = Any Other Fighter

India will be pressed to modernize its military overall, as its Chinese neighbor continues to develop advanced capabilities, Thompson said.

That train is never late! :P

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2019 06:46

SidSoma wrote:All Rant points noted. Moving on.

Thank You for no longer ranting.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 06 Mar 2019 07:56

Zynda wrote:
nam wrote:
I am not sure RWR can detect launches. It can detect radar lock from the FCR and when the BVR seeker locks on the target.

The FCR can probably detect the BVR homing in.

Thanks, thats what I meant when I wrote "launches"...can detect aircraft FCR & missile seeker locks.


An IR missile queued by an HMD/IRST will give no warnings on an RWR. Even a MAPAD will not register.

HAL Rudra has MAW-300.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2019 07:57

Atmavik wrote:Yak hearder sahib, i usually check Yawn when visiting pak ish tan. what is new in there ??

Urdu section. Not "new", but "recent".

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Mar 2019 07:59

Gee! Posts seem to disappear from this thread faster than F-16 wreckage from POK... :rotfl: (no complaints..)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby shaun » 06 Mar 2019 08:17

We can mount pressure internationally on porkis from another angle , if established that those AAMRAMs had potential risk to our civilian flights .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2019 08:27

Big question
How did the Su-30 MKIs defend against several AMRAAM missiles fired by PAF in Rajouri?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2019 08:55

ramana wrote:Big question
How did the Su-30 MKIs defend against several AMRAAM missiles fired by PAF in Rajouri?



a question, best not answered on a public forum?? :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2019 08:57

^^ the limitations of BVR missiles against receding supersonic targets are well known. effective range at best of around 20km.
the Mangla dam F16s were about 20-30km away from the SU30 formation.

I imagine the awacs detected the launches and warned the Su30 to turn away and deploy ECM. the amraams ran out of energy and fizzled out. (I thought they had a self destruct fuse,,,,so the warhead section would vanish but the tail section would be intact as it fell on ground)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prashanth_R » 06 Mar 2019 09:04

As BR gurus predicted ISI started lynched pilot game

http://idrw.org/a-fathers-tale-lynched- ... ore-195109

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2019 09:04

her is a epic HUD camera footage of a Rafale in WVR with a F22, probably in red flag. remember the F22 is flying clean with those mighty engines, no need to cart any real AAMs and has 2D TVC. Rafale has no TVC and would be carrying a dummy Mica with seeker but inert warhead and a ACMI pod on other pylon.

it is able to defeat the f22 in this round multiple times



watch with sound, the pilot is breathing heavily from high G turns. few times he uses the side sticks so hard, the automatic system alerts him "release stick" . you can see the outline of his OSF IRST systems below the HUD.

from comments:

LudicFallacies
4 years ago (edited)
0:10 to 0:30 and 0:37 to 0:43 he has radar lock on that F-22 with moments of MICA seeker tracking. At 0:13 and 0:42 the MICA seeker head even locks!

0:50

FOX TWO!

He had a good 5 seconds of seeker head lock for fox two prior to the 0:50 MICA launch and prior he had at least three moments of off bore slingshots he could have taken.

2:39 the Rafale breaks off.

I'm amazed at how many times the Rafale locked onto the F-22.

The thing is we don't know how many times the F-22 had a lock on the Rafale! For certain the F-22 would have had Fox Three before this turned into a dogfight. I really wonder though if F-22 even got Fox Two looking at those merges and AOA. Rafale was in a much better position numerous times during that engagement and was the superior pilot.

INCREDIBLE!

SALUTE Armée de l'Air!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 06 Mar 2019 09:12

In 1966, Israel got its hands on a MiG-21, with major benefits for itself and the US Air Force.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ughnut.pdf

On Aug. 16, 1966, Iraqi Air Force Capt. Munir Radfa defected to Israel in a MiG-21 jet fighter. The MiG-21 was, at the time, a state-of-the-art Soviet aircraft and the pride of Russia’s aircraft industry. The defection, orchestrated by the Israeli government, soon gave both Israel and the United States access to intelligence from a front-line Soviet fighter that the two nations would face in battle in the coming years.


While its armament was adequate for an interceptor, US analysts found the Fishbed’s gunsight deficient.“The tracking index drifts off the bottom of the windscreen when track-ing targets in excess of three Gs,” reads a declassified report from the Defense Intelligence Agency. Typical of delta-wing aircraft, the airspeed bleed-off during high-G turns was excessive. This speed-bleed decreased the MiG’s turn radius, however, and the G force could be sustained at slower speeds than comparable US fighters.Obviously, in a turning fight, this gave the Fishbed a tactical advantage.The DIA assessment identified several major aerodynamic limitations in the MiG-21. These included:
    Exceptionally heavy pitch force required above 685 mph.
    Severe buffeting below 15,000 feet when approaching 685 mph or a .98 indicated Mach number.
    Exceptionally slow engine accelera-tion from idle to full military power.Poor directional stability in tur-bulence.


It is noteworthy that by the time the US became heavily engaged in the Vietnam War, the Soviet spon-sors and North Vietnamese Air Force commanders very effectively planned around the Fishbed’s limitations. They never committed their fighters unless there was a good chance of success and subsequent escape. In fact, in 80 percent of the North Vietnamese Air Force kills, the victims were unaware they were under attack.As USAF’s “Red Baron” study of aerial warfare in Vietnam determined, before the US obtained effective radar coverage of North Vietnam, the winner of an air engagement usually initiated the combat from a position of nearly unbeatable advantage.


Typically, DIA found, the Fishbeds were “vectored into the rear hemi-sphere for a high-speed, single-pass attack,” generally from a cross-course intercept.For example, when US fighters were bombing targets north of Hanoi, such as the Paul Doumer Bridge, en-emy MiG-21s would be vectored by ground control intercept radar from Chinese airspace to a position behind the Phantoms.

As the F-4s pulled up from their target, the MiGs would launch Atoll missiles and zoom back to political sanctuary in China. Air forces called these attacks “blow-throughs.”

At high altitude the Fishbed’s small size made it very difficult to visu-ally acquire or keep in sight while maneuvering. In a frontal or trailing attack, its slight silhouette also made it difficult to acquire on radar.


Despite being heavier, both the F-105D and F-4 were found basically superior to the MiG-21. Maintaining a high airspeed and avoiding turning engagements was the key to US success, although the F-4 was also aerodynami-cally superior in a vertical contest.

The Have Doughnut tests showed the F-4 had the capability “to control an engagement below 15,000 feet by ex-ploiting the MiG-21 airspeed limitation and airspeed bleed-off characteristic at high G.” In a visual encounter, the recommendation was to get behind the MiG and operate “in the vertical” during air combat maneuvering.


This is what was tried by Abhinandana's victim, the F16 first dove down, and then shot up. No escaping the off-bore sight capability of the R73. In an AWACS controlled environment, if the radar beam from the Mig21 can be narrowed, or alternatively, if the AWACS can generate a Fire Control Solution for the missile on the Mig, this can still be a very competitive airplane.

I am also wondering, how many of the issues identified here in the original 1966 Mig21 have been fixed in the bis and then the Bison.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2019 09:16

i last played the falcon 4.0 game about 20 years ago. Falcons from south korea fighting over Noko and DMZ.
I never managed to get lock on a single Mig21, let alone shoot one down. they would merge and be gone in a flash, very small and slippery. assuming the physics of that famous game were correct, ACM against these small agile fighters is not easy.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby brar_w » 06 Mar 2019 09:22

Singha wrote:her is a epic HUD camera footage of a Rafale in WVR with a F22!..


What was the scenario they were up against during this BFM? Context matters as this is a training exercise and likely not red flag . In exercises instructor and aggressor pilots routinely defeat the F-22 in a one vs one or two vs one with a T-38 but that is usually when they have things going in their favor as they are trying to provide a stressfull environment to the other side for maximum training value. The same scenarios and missions are conducted in other BFM training as this isn't supposed to be the Olympic games of dogfighting but a rehearsal for the real thing where you go up against an enemy with varying degrees of tactical advantage and disadvantage.

The Rafale pilots are notorious for leaking HUD and gun can image and if one went by and that one would think no F-22 or FXX ever got it better of a French pilot EVER because no similar videos exist of those encounters. There is some HUD image of T-38s killing F-22 and once upon a time there was a video as well but not sure whether it is still out there.

Interesting stuff. One old top gun pilot who retired from the USN in the late 90s once told me that the best USN or USAF averaged around .600 in one vs one BFM b/w the 18 and 16. Think about that for a second to realize how unpredictable WVR combat really is.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 06 Mar 2019 09:39

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumansky_R-25

The Tumansky R-25 was designed as a replacement for Tumansky R-13 in MiG-21 fighters. R-25 is a two-spool axial-flow turbojet featuring a new compressor with increased overall pressure ratio and airflow, variable two-stage afterburner, and greater use of titanium.

The R-25 jet engine's specialty was the addition of a second fuel pump in the afterburning stage. Activating the ЧР (rus. "чрезвычайный режим" - emergency mode) booster feature allows the engine to develop 96.8 kilonewtons (21,800 lbf) of thrust under 4,000 metres (13,000 ft) of altitude. The limit of operation is 1 minute for dogfight practice and 3 minutes for an actual wartime emergency, as further use causes the engine to overheat and potentially explode. Use of CSR requires engine take-out inspection upon landing and every minute of its use counts as one full hour of engine runtime on the logbook.

This further shortens the already limited cycle time of Soviet made engines between industrial-level overhauls and adds great cost, but the extreme thrust of CSR allowed the MiG-21bis to reach a better than 1:1 thrust-to-weight ratio for dogfight and theoretically outclimb the F-16.

The R-25 engine was used on the MiG-21bis and the Sukhoi Su-15bis. A total of 3,200 R-25 were built between 1971 and 1975. The R-25 engine was also built under license by HAL in India for its fleet of MiG-21bis.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 06 Mar 2019 09:57

SidSoma wrote:All Rant points noted. Moving on.

Not so fast. You made a specific and tall claim about the Mi-17 incident at Budgam. Do you have a source for it? If not, retract it.

This is a serious forum and shoot and scoot is not permitted. Especially when it comes to the current situation.

Mods, request you to delete the Mi-17 part of his post if he does not have any source. There are still enough people lurking and reading this forum, and we should not have baki propaganda posted as unchallenged.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bharadwaj » 06 Mar 2019 10:15

After reading the IAF release from yesterday lets just say I am no longer that averse anymore to the choice of certain equipment on the tejas mk1a. Ok I will shut up now before i get banned.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2019 10:54

All this fine and dandy by Pak 's have changed the ROE .see even 27 Feb we warned them about crossing LOC rather than shooting . Pakis don t follow rules

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sum » 06 Mar 2019 11:06

There will be payback one of these days for all those AAMRAMs fired. Any TSPAF aircraft which comes anywhere close to the border will be made a example

Just like how there was payback in the downing of Atlantique when it got close to the border for our fighters/Helos being brought down during Kargil

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2019 11:24

brar sahib no need to get upset :)
all I was saying was the kind of clean fuselage, mighty engines and LO that give the f22 great advantages in a bvr high and fast engagement (its preferred domain) are muchly nullified in a close in WVR against a tricky opponent like the rafale who also features HMS and off-boresight AAMs.
same point was made by ACM Tyagi in the Mig21 article that Austin shared......he was able to manage the M2K/Mig29 which were on paper far superior by getting in close and staying close. even then I was a bit underwhelmed at the f22s show in that video unless he had one engine off to stack the deck against himself (I doubt!)

given that ROEs for BVR combat with civilian traffic flying around are restrictive, the arena of "top gun" type action with sustained WVR is very much there and even the mighty F-solah ADF has been humbled - supposed to be the best dogfighter in usaf along with the bigmouth block40.

while the f22 has no real worries, I wonder how the JSF will fare in such contests with a "near peer adversary" with 4++ gen a/c and HOBS aam?
its going to be exported all around the world and later given as baksheesh to pliable regimes.
:twisted: "manouverability is irrelevant" ? (in the words of a famous JSF manager) ... let us say bigly AWACS on both sides are scanning and a hostile hot peace patrol without bvr roe suddenly turns violent! eg japan vs plaaf or greece vs turkey or norway vs russia.

greek vs turkey seem to have have dozens of "friendly" 1vs1 gun camera fights over the aegean sea islands f16vsf16 or m2kvsf16.

JSF may be perfect for the way usaf fights and its vast support ecosystem (incl the best EW libraries and e-orbat sniffing) . i wonder if the 2nd rung like uk/italy/japan can provide the same ecosystem and avoid getting into tough corners...granted they can always count on some usaf support if they get into a fight.... but the 3rd rung like TSP/gulfies/turkey certainly do not have that ecosystem.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 06 Mar 2019 12:36

arshyam wrote:
SidSoma wrote:All Rant points noted. Moving on.

Not so fast. You made a specific and tall claim about the Mi-17 incident at Budgam. Do you have a source for it? If not, retract it.

This is a serious forum and shoot and scoot is not permitted. Especially when it comes to the current situation.

Mods, request you to delete the Mi-17 part of his post if he does not have any source. There are still enough people lurking and reading this forum, and we should not have baki propaganda posted as unchallenged.


At one end we have Pakis on TV claiming that either SU-30 or M2000 was shot down due to BVR action from JF 17.The Mi-17 was shot down from the Su-30 and it was a classical case of fratricide. The Western air commander was 'Kicked' out due to Mi-17 and other tactical errors. That PAF is aided in their mission to defended PAK holy land by "Farishtey" from Jannat.



Kindly pardon Sir,

I am posting my entire statement that Mi-17 was a propaganda of PAK media. Not official. My only intention of the post was to lament the characteristic avoiding of propaganda by Indian gov, IAF and the media.

Just like one lie produces a 1000 lies. One rant produces a 1000 rants. Sigh.No more.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Vikas » 06 Mar 2019 12:46

Isn't there a claim that USA would know when and where any F-16 was flown and where all did it go (& kaboom in recent case ) and blah blah. So they should already know if Pakis has milao F-16 ka naam in the mitti as usual.
I doubt if they would need physical inventory audit to find it out.

Aditya_V
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Mar 2019 12:58

Some of the propaganda goes over the top.

1) US would by now definately know F-16's and AMRAAM's have been used

2) They would also know through Paki sources that a F-16 went down.

They are going to do Zilch about it. It we can convince them to state through some public document that some AMRAAM's were used and F-16 when down as part of routine quarterly inspections- that would be a dpilomatic coupe.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 06 Mar 2019 13:22

Aditya_V wrote:Some of the propaganda goes over the top.
They are going to do Zilch about it. It we can convince them to state through some public document that some AMRAAM's were used and F-16 when down as part of routine quarterly inspections- that would be a dpilomatic coupe.
..very well said.. I made a similar point some time back. It will be a HUGEEEEEE diplomatic coupe... Billions of USD are involved plus H&D plus taliban talks factor.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 06 Mar 2019 13:23

the AMRAAM wreackage with serial no is there ..how long does it take to verify that? AMRAAM is integrated on the F 16 onleee.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2019 13:35

Lets not get worked out on Non Issue like AMRAAM was used offensively or defensively by PAF because there is some document that says you can use it only in defensively or against Peaceful Talib.

Its a non-issue because PAF will claim IAF attacked them and F-16 was forced to use AMRAAM defensively , There is no way to prove any weapons were used in defensive or offensive way and no one is going to take PAF to court for that.

Pentagon has deep relationship with Pakistan and they have said that many times on record and they want to use Pakistan and its armed forces as an offset against India. Thats been the case since 60 years.

Let not be naive here and know why F-16 and AMRAAM and other weapons were sold in first place against Non Existent Taliban Airforce

If any thing Pentagon will be worried how IAF managed to spoof the AMRAAMS and will try to get info from PAF and IAF in due course of time to fix issues with AMRAAM.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 06 Mar 2019 14:28

Austin wrote:If any thing Pentagon will be worried how IAF managed to spoof the AMRAAMS and will try to get info from PAF and IAF in due course of time to fix issues with AMRAAM.


PAF used AIM-120-C5, Khan has already moved to AIM-120 C7 and further AIM-120D is in testing (yeah right). So I don't think Khan will bother too much either. Khan has had first hand experience of eating mud from the Mig-21. They will be nodding their heads in the corner saying "I told you so Paki. If we got our a$$ handed out to us, what did you expect!!". So all in all no one in the know are raising any eyebrows.

Pentagon has deep relationship with Pakistan and they have said that many times on record and they want to use Pakistan and its armed forces as an offset against India. Thats been the case since 60 years.


What can be expected is Khan pays up for SigINT on Bars. I am sure they'd be interested in that. Watch out for any big payments to Pak :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 06 Mar 2019 14:52

whatever beatings pak gets, khan will use that to seek good behaviour along durand line.

but per the article i found today in TOI, enrollment and arming of tribal levies and lashkars has started in NWFP to use in the post-trumpian afpak in concert with the taliban. they will want a quick victory over the afghan national govt. F16s in mufti might also be used at night where none can verify. the taliban might yet gets its own AF, using the same resources given to fight the taliban!
they already have their artillery as ex-PA.
and intel as ISI.

after a gap of 17 years post-911 , TSP is salivating at the thought of taking control of afghanistan again.


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