MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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UlanBatori
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2019 18:02

^
subjected to loud music
Yow! THAT is clearly torture, assuming it was Pakistani music.
They should have brought in Hasina AtimBum. Or Shrilleen. One *art from either one and he would have broken down and confessed all.
UBCN have not exactly checked the timeline, but if MIL was on SAR it took off right after (or maybe they take off immediately when there is an air engagement which is what I would do) the MiG went down. 1 minute if After, and as soon as bogeys reported if I were running the show.
So don't go by announced crash time: check the timeline. Missiles were in the air around that time. Or maybe the Pakis ran away, then deliberately targeted the SAR using a BVR. Say it was launched from 30 miles away from LOC: At Mach 2 (20 miles per minute) that takes 1.5 minutes just straight flight time.
Crash report said 10 minutes out of Srinagar. My guess is it was put into the air in readiness, and generally started moving in some assumed direction.

The other :(( I have is about ppl grudgingly coming around to the undeniable truth that Paki missiles are duds (4 launched, 3 confirmed duds so far) but accepting that Pakis targeted the MiG21 with a BVR AMRAAM while it was in a criss-crossing mixup dogfight with their own plane. Ramana has previously debunked that.
Are they really THAT stupid? Even by Paki standards?
Much more credible that they were targeting the Air Asia which repelled the missile using the Force Field of the AirMohtermas.
SO! Ppl are FORCED to accept the UBCN Truth - and they say EXCEPT FOR DEBRIS INGESTION.
If you are flying Mach 2, closing in on the Mach 1.6 Paki on afterburner and locked on, you try to get as close as possible before firing the IR-based missile. It goes straight ahead and the Pakis promptly eject. Then the missile hits and there is a huge explosion. Pieces flying at Mach 5 from the detonation, in all directions including straight at you. What are your changes of totally avoiding that?
OK, if missile is ruled out (and I laugh at the "went to high angle of attack accidentally" silliness, the only thing we are left with is that the engine - or wing - went kaput due to debris ingestion. Since both Paki parachutes were seen, it couldn't have been a Paki that got ingested. Had to be missile debris.

S-27 engines have been known to go kaput during low-level gunnery/missile launches (many saal pehle....) but MiG-21 intake is up at the nose. Ingesting bullet casings or hot gas is not likely. So it has to be debris.

These things take THINKING, ppl. Not just copying garbage from Paki Twits (or desi "media" twits).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Pratyush » 07 Mar 2019 18:07

Why are we going on about the mi17 loss. The COI is underway and it would be wise to wait for the result.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2019 18:08

Same for the MiG21 crash. And the Pulwama attack. And the Mumbai attack. And Bofors. And 2G Spectrum. And Kerala floods. What fun is speculation after the enquiry report comes out, hain?
Looks like Pratyush is upset about any theory of the MIL crash except "poor maintenance", "old Indian aircraft" or "pilot error"? Don't want anyone showing that it was 99% probable to be Paki action, either SAM or AAM? A problem with that, Pratyush?
Look at the evidence: The helicopters didn't just hit some mountain. Helicopters don't fly very high above the ground or fast, unlike fighter jets.

So why was it not a relatively gentle crash-landing after an attempted rotor flare if the engine(s) went out? Instead the hub plate was found away from the rest, etc. Wreckage was absolutely a mess. It was a mid-air explosion. IOW, missile.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 07 Mar 2019 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2019 18:12

imo that hole is about where the rotating shaft driving the tail boom meets a gear that connects it to another shaft connected to the tail rotor.
seeing that it feel among a bunch of trees, it could be the result of hitting a tree.
a MANPAD would home on the engine exhaust up ahead.
a RPG could hit anywhere, but i guess unless its hovering low over a urban area like "black hawk down" film RPG hits are tough to obtain.....looking at pit in ground in initial pics the heli fell from a good height.
no burn marks either of any explosion on impact.

I am inclined to believe the accident theory for now....there are 3 sticks in that area under the boom...maybe that hit tree and caused this hole

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2019 18:14

Mid-air Fireball was reported, was it not? It it just hit a tree (why?) probably it would be the tip of the tailrotor rotor that hit, and led to loss of tailrotor and a fatal spin. But I see no reason for that unless engines had totally failed, and that would probably be a crash from which some survived. Wreckage was shown in an open field. Why would a helicopter that loses its tailrotor (or main rotor) fly a long distance (even a few hundred yards) and fall in an open field?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 07 Mar 2019 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Pratyush » 07 Mar 2019 18:16

I have no issues with what you have stated about the AMRAAM and the mig 21. That it turned 180 once it crossed the LOC. the mig was lost due to debris ingestion in the engine.

However, I do take exception to any speculation on the loss of mi17 till the COI doesn't come up with a definite conclusion. Simply because the tspaf denied any involvement with its loss.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Mar 2019 18:18

Ah! So! We believe TSPAF!!!!
If they denied, it was because they were the villains. They haven't yet accepted that East Pakistan surrendered. Or that they lost in Kargil.
Also, rather strange logic. Has COI come out with definitive report on the MiG crash? Please point me to that?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 07 Mar 2019 18:34

How can COI come out with definitive report on MiG crash. It does not have access to the wreckage... they need to talk to Abhi and check what the AWACS has recorded.. Should wait for COI to report on Mi crash.. if all the wreckage of the Mi is at one place , chances are it was a technical fault. A explosion high up would have resulted in scattered wreckage.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Pratyush » 07 Mar 2019 18:35

You want to believe that the mi 17 was lost as a result of tspaf action. Which missile brought it down. The AMRAAM?

this punches a nice big hole in the 180 turn by missiles after crossing the loc. No?

As per my understanding the loss location is quite far from loc. And not tspaf aircraft came anyware close to crossing the loc.

So as far as I am concerned no break in my logic as per my previous post.
Last edited by Pratyush on 07 Mar 2019 18:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 07 Mar 2019 18:38

Paul wrote:Interestingly Pakis tried to break Wg Cdr Abhi into revealing frequencies at which ground control communicates with pilots

IAF SOP is to change frequencies within 24 hrs of a pilot being captured. Abhi tried to hold them off for as long as he could on this


The pieces of shit that Pakistani Army are, tried to cripple him to get to reveal the frequencies, deployment etc.
No medical treatment after a spinal injury post ejection, tried to choke him (again neck), kept him awake and subjected to as much harassment as possible for increasing his pain so he breaks...

And we treat these POS per the Geneva convention..
Time for IA SF to visit across the border again and show some of them the same respect.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Supratik » 07 Mar 2019 19:54


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2019 20:14

Aditya_V wrote:It could also be pilot error since they were scrambling to pick up a downed pilot, pre flight inspections would have been skipped and the pilots would have been extreme pressure to reach Wing Commander, his aircraft had taken from the same base as the MI17 and these guys were on a scramble SAR mission, highly likely under such stressful conditions some mistake could have been made, remember we were not war and PAF escalated, the Mig's would have on ORP but the SAR helicopter may not have been kept in the same SAR readiness.


Good theory but the pilot is an experienced officer.

I would go with UBN that the Pakis targeted the rescue helicopter like the Pak jihadis put bombs in hospitals.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2019 20:19

Austin wrote:US justified F-16 sale to Pakistan in 2008 as deterrence against India

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 279161.cms

Image


Even Eisenhower assured India while arming Pakistan to the hilt in the 1950s.

US assurances are not worth the paper on which they are written.

Because while the White House gives assurances the pentagon and State Dept wink and nod the Pakistanis.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 07 Mar 2019 20:23

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-pilot-abhinandan-varthaman-held-off-pakistan-grilling-for-crucial-24-hrs/story-805l123IQg9L21962wPQOI.html
Sleep deprived, choked, beaten up: How IAF pilot Abhinandan held off Pak grilling
The official, who is part of a team debriefing Varthaman after he walked back into India across the Wagah border on March 1, said the Wing Commander was deprived of sleep, choked and even beaten up by his captors in Pakistan.

extracted from the above article

During his captivity, Varthaman was made to stand for long hours and subjected to loud music to increase his discomfort, the official said, requesting anonymity.
He added that as Pakistani officers tried to extract information from him about the frequencies that the IAF uses to transmit messages, deployment of fighter jets and logistical arrangements, Varthaman held back.
All Indian fighter pilots are taught to hold back for as long as possible when captured, so that transmitting frequencies and deployments can be changed in the first 24 hours to deny the adversary any advantage, the officer said.
“Wing Commander Abhinandan did exactly that,” the officer said.
At least three to four separate teams comprising a select group of officers are debriefing Wing Commander Varthaman on various aspects of his captivity.


The teams are not being cruel but trying to find out what TSP wants to find out.
That itself is very valuable.
And the techniques used would be great to know to prep IAF pilots.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 07 Mar 2019 20:36

manjgu wrote:How can COI come out with definitive report on MiG crash. It does not have access to the wreckage... they need to talk to Abhi and check what the AWACS has recorded.. Should wait for COI to report on Mi crash.. if all the wreckage of the Mi is at one place , chances are it was a technical fault. A explosion high up would have resulted in scattered wreckage.


The CoI report will never be made public.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 07 Mar 2019 20:37

ramana wrote:
wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-pilot-abhinandan-varthaman-held-off-pakistan-grilling-for-crucial-24-hrs/story-805l123IQg9L21962wPQOI.html

extracted from the above article



The teams are not being cruel but trying to find out what TSP wants to find out.
That itself is very valuable.
And the techniques used would be great to know to prep IAF pilots.


they are also looking for some sign/tell tale that he may have been turned.

This is also SOP.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2019 20:44

Including future monitoring of his activities. This is Pakistan after all. They are devious in their ways.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 07 Mar 2019 21:31

Supratik wrote:Description of the engagement.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... -shot.html

H-4 is the torgos missile apparently.
Image

H-2 is Denel Raptor.
Image

source : https://www.webcitation.org/6Qh7e9e9V?u ... detail.asp

Air Weapons The PAF is also looking for an advanced weapons package to accompany its new advanced fighters. It expects that AMRAAM and JDAM will part of a future F-16 sale, and also expects that either European or Chinese advanced weapons will accompany a potential JAS-39 or J-10 purchase. But in the meantime Pakistan is also trying to develop its own advanced aircraft weapons. Some reports mention a project called "H-4," which appears to be a long-range precision guided bomb. Some sources speculate that South Africa�s 300km range MUPSOW or Torgos turbojet powered cruise missile may be the template for the H-4, while another source speculates it has a range of 120km. The smaller South African Raptor may be the basis for the "H-2" guided bomb has a range of 60km. Pakistani officials say this weapon is in service. Regarding air-to-air weapons, Pakistani officials noted their current commitment to active-guided BVR missiles. They noted a previous attempt to develop a semi-active guided AAM, but had discarded this program. Other recent reports note after long doubts that this program had succeeded, that China did develop a semi-active guided missile during the 1990s called the PL-11 that was based on captured U.S. and purchased Italian AAMs.


if the above source is correct then the weapon used is the Denel Raptor as speculated on BRF which is called H-2 or H-4 in paki service. If we go by that 'bimber' image on FB, the weapon used was the raptor. IAF might mean this weapon or might have additional evidence of use of Torgos (but not evidence of the raptor ?).

All I can say is, very interesting.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SBajwa » 07 Mar 2019 22:02

SidSoma wrote:
komal wrote:^
Other than Congis, Pakis (I repeat myself) whose perceptions are won by what is said by Paki broadcasters? Who cares what they think?


The entire Abhinandan action occured on 27th morning. The IAF brief was which spoke about 24 planes being challenged by 8 planes was done on 28th evening. So what we knew for almost 2 days was that 3-4 F-16s were challenged by 2-3 migs and 2 planes were lost etc. Part of the picture was revealed only on the next day. By that time most ppl had decided that our SU-30s were a dud and we had lost the battle. Its hard to overcome that battle. Now the perception of most around me is that we were lucky to get the result we got. I mean, we BFRites understand and are patient, but most general public dont. Its important to also convey to the public how confident we are that we can taken on PAF with 3:1 odds and yet strike fear in them. Basically I am tired of being hounded Why Mig 21, why did we lose pilot in their POK etc etc. Long rant :(


With 17 posts how are you a BRifite? Bharat Rakshak Forum and webiste has been up and running since Internet was started (1995-1996).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2019 22:46

the dual rockets are said to drop off at some point in the final phase, where its a unpowered glider ... the wings may fold out only then.

so if that rocket dropped off at the border, did they fire one to our side i wonder.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 07 Mar 2019 22:53

Supratik wrote:Description of the engagement.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... -shot.html


If Indian PM had given a free hand to our armed forces not sure what prevented Su30 MKIs to take down few PAF F-16s after all those hot and cold missile locks. If the response has to be muscular it has to be all out ... no-holds-barred!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2019 22:57

and if due to that unplanned fight crossing a civilian air lane a indigo flight with 130 onboard crashed with all onboard fatal, all the internet kamandus would pin the blame on IAF and namo.

pls do use your common sense and refer back to my post showing that 5 civilian flights would usually be in that zone every morning 10am. check tomorrow morning also if you'd like.

india had not and has not declared a war. israel has not declared a war on iran or hezbollah but keeps on hitting them whenever it gets a chance.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby SidSoma » 07 Mar 2019 23:02

SBajwa wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
The entire Abhinandan action occured on 27th morning. The IAF brief was which spoke about 24 planes being challenged by 8 planes was done on 28th evening. So what we knew for almost 2 days was that 3-4 F-16s were challenged by 2-3 migs and 2 planes were lost etc. Part of the picture was revealed only on the next day. By that time most ppl had decided that our SU-30s were a dud and we had lost the battle. Its hard to overcome that battle. Now the perception of most around me is that we were lucky to get the result we got. I mean, we BFRites understand and are patient, but most general public dont. Its important to also convey to the public how confident we are that we can taken on PAF with 3:1 odds and yet strike fear in them. Basically I am tired of being hounded Why Mig 21, why did we lose pilot in their POK etc etc. Long rant :(


With 17 posts how are you a BRifite? Bharat Rakshak Forum and webiste has been up and running since Internet was started (1995-1996).


Please refer to my rank given on the right hand side of the post. It seems to say BRFite-Trainee. If there is a passing score to be called BRFite please do mention it somewhere so that such wrongful use of terminology can be avoided.

Moving on: It is very interesting to see the effect of ELTA 8222 on the MiG 21 fighter. It would be interesting to see it on the Tejas MK1A. Given that Tejas MK1 has the ELTA 2032, any gurus can clarify on the use of ELTA 8222 on Mk1 itself ? Any reasons not to integraet the same ? Seems like a great system Esp when in CAP role, the SPJ can be carried instead of the LDP.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 07 Mar 2019 23:07

Singha wrote:and if due to that unplanned fight crossing a civilian air lane a indigo flight with 130 onboard crashed with all onboard fatal, all the internet kamandus would pin the blame on IAF and namo.

pls do use your common sense and refer back to my post showing that 5 civilian flights would usually be in that zone every morning 10am. check tomorrow morning also if you'd like.

india had not and has not declared a war. israel has not declared a war on iran or hezbollah but keeps on hitting them whenever it gets a chance.



Sir if civilian flights were hit and the fear of blame put on IAF and NaMo which kept our fighters restrained ... they could have jolly well been hit by PAF fired missiles. Still the blame would have been IAF’s!

POK is technically India’s territory ... intruders (if multiple PAF fighters were in POK airspace) can be shot down in such airspace and that would not tantamount to declaring a war!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 07 Mar 2019 23:25

There has always beeen a great deal of resentment amongst PAF ranks that whenever it came to military engagement with India the Pak Army had always sidelined them. It seems this time it was entirely a PAF led attempted strike. This could only bolster their fortune in the future and they will definitely take upper hand (including budgetary allocations) in their ongoing inter-service rivalry. Downing a few PAF jets would have deflated their ego permanently

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Mar 2019 23:33

^^^ not so sure. they get penetrated deep, then H&D forced them to throw the best they had into a desperate dice roll move and they did the least they could do to show their mardangi and not only did they not hit anything but lost a top of the line F16 and the best they can show for it is a lucky hit against a '60's vintage khatara'* and ran for their lives... PA will not take too kindly to the loss of the tanzeems and no ability to create deterrence


* sometimes it works in our favour to denigrate the mig 21

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby parshuram » 08 Mar 2019 00:04

esommuk wrote:
Supratik wrote:Description of the engagement.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... -shot.html


If Indian PM had given a free hand to our armed forces not sure what prevented Su30 MKIs to take down few PAF F-16s after all those hot and cold missile locks. If the response has to be muscular it has to be all out ... no-holds-barred!


Asked this question to IAF Vet Pilot and that why did nt MKI engaged F-16 ‘s at all . This is what he said -> Radar lock is not enough. BVR combat relies a lot on missile kinematics, as well as adversary actions. Fire before the right moment, and there is a risk of wastage - very high penalty for CAP, who may have to face another barrage of attackers. OTOH, the bandit has an easy exit.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby kit » 08 Mar 2019 00:07

esommuk wrote:
Supratik wrote:Description of the engagement.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... -shot.html


If Indian PM had given a free hand to our armed forces not sure what prevented Su30 MKIs to take down few PAF F-16s after all those hot and cold missile locks. If the response has to be muscular it has to be all out ... no-holds-barred!


India was striking at non military terrorist targets, but then PAF shot down the mig., if the wing commander was not returned you might have seen that and more , that was the deal.The US "enforced" the deal and the paks de escalated. But everything is not done...yet

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 08 Mar 2019 00:13

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ not so sure. they get penetrated deep, then H&D forced them to throw the best they had into a desperate dice roll move and they did the least they could do to show their mardangi and not only did they not hit anything but lost a top of the line F16 and the best they can show for it is a lucky hit against a '60's vintage khatara'* and ran for their lives... PA will not take too kindly to the loss of the tanzeems and no ability to create deterrence


* sometimes it works in our favour to denigrate the mig 21



Sir I am sure more Rafale birds on the way ... PM has already declared results would have been different if ...... !

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:15

Singha wrote:pls do use your common sense and refer back to my post showing that 5 civilian flights would usually be in that zone every morning 10am. check tomorrow morning also if you'd like.



Pak would have known about the daily flight path of the civilian flights and timing. POK has hardly any flights.

It must have been a deliberate strategy to attack at the time to restrict IAF response.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:22

First thing, we were not at war with Pak. So cannot shotdown jets flying in PoK. If we want to shoot them down, then a no fly zone policy needs to be declared before hand.

Because of this we cannot engage any jets, until they cross the LoC. Based on the reports, most of the jets in the package did not cross the LC.

Even the ones which were using LGB, it is not clear if they did. Either they crossed the LC or dropped LGB from outside the LC. This happened in the sector guarded by Mig21. Hence they reacted first.

The shoot down of F16 must have been echoed back in the package and they let loose Aim120. Either in panic expecting a R77 on their way or real intention to bag a Su30. They seem to have fired from 40-50KM. At these distance, there is no guarantee of kill.

Our Su30 took measure to evade and by the time they were in position (you cannot fire BVR from lower height. ) the package would have run back. Firing R77 in chase mode is waste of resources.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:26

I do feel Meteor could have made a difference in chasing PAF jets for long distance, with it's Ramjet motor. But then if the targets were already 70-100KM away from LC, it would have made no difference.

I would be interested to know if a "virtual" no fly zone was put in PoK after this, with PAF jets maintaining sufficient distance from LC to evade any R77/Mica/Derby.

We do know IAF knocked off a Pak UAV which was probably flying in the 10KM no fly zone.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:28

esommuk wrote:Sir I am sure more Rafale birds on the way ... PM has already declared results would have been different if ...... !


PM's comment were political, however having Meteor would have helped in chasing PAF jets. But there is no guarantee, the action would have taken place where Rafales were deployed.

Same as Mirage or Su30. They were sort of bystanders.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Mar 2019 00:29

It might also have to do with the confidence in R-77 in long range engagement & the need to preserve missiles during CAP as parshuram mentioned above.

All the more reason to induct Astra in numbers right away!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 08 Mar 2019 00:31

nam wrote:First thing, we were not at war with Pak. So cannot shotdown jets flying in PoK. If we want to shoot them down, then a no fly zone policy needs to be declared before hand.


Sir with Pakistan there should be no protocol. Just like the hot and cold LOC on the ground .... if they fire a round we fire 10 till our barrels melt. Some establishments only understand brute force. If they are obsessed with optics let us give them ample optics!

Kadi ninda, bhartsana, RoE, no-fly zone does not apply for them!

Karan M
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2019 00:32

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:pls do use your common sense and refer back to my post showing that 5 civilian flights would usually be in that zone every morning 10am. check tomorrow morning also if you'd like.



Pak would have known about the daily flight path of the civilian flights and timing. POK has hardly any flights.

It must have been a deliberate strategy to attack at the time to restrict IAF response.


Well said, there is no depth to which the PAF/PA will not go to score wins against the Indian side.. the Indian services seem to be still somewhat in gentleman warrior mode. This should have been wargamed well in advance, under the basic assumption the PA/PAF/PN will do anything for a PR victory.
The Indian bureucracy's wordplay appears even more pointless in this regards.

Assuming that international opinion will step in to take the Indian side or restrict Pak is also stupid. They couldn't care less about what happens and will play an equal equal game with alacrity.

naird
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby naird » 08 Mar 2019 00:35

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03/tally-and-locked-abhinandans-last-radio-call-before-he-fired-f-16-kill-shot.html

The R-73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan was the only Indian weapon launched during the aerial engagement, leading the Indian Air Force to officially attribute the F-16 kill to him. None of the other jets launched weapons — IAF sources suggest this was owing to a lack of target solutions at beyond visual range, though this will be the subject of investigation. It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny. Several such questions remain unanswered at this time, including just why even a large package of fighters were able to test the ‘air superiority’ capabilities of the Su-30 MKI, the flagship of the Indian Air Force.


What does this even mean ? Doesnt make sense

nam
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:37

Prem Kumar wrote:It might also have to do with the confidence in R-77 in long range engagement & the need to preserve missiles during CAP as parshuram mentioned above.

All the more reason to induct Astra in numbers right away!


Nothing to do with R77 capability. No standard BVR (including Aim120) has great hit rate at those distance and in chase mode. The target simply has enough time to evade.

Ramjet powered BVR on the other hand, does not glide to the target. It is full powered. A Ramjet BVR can chase the target till 100KM at Mach 3-4, all the way. A rocket powered would drop off at 20KM.

esommuk
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 08 Mar 2019 00:39

I have always wondered if the Mi17 is suited for combat search and rescue role ... if the mission was to pull out our Wg Cdr from hostile territory

nam
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 08 Mar 2019 00:42

Karan M wrote:Well said, there is no depth to which the PAF/PA will not go to score wins against the Indian side.. the Indian services seem to be still somewhat in gentleman warrior mode. This should have been wargamed well in advance, under the basic assumption the PA/PAF/PN will do anything for a PR victory.
The Indian bureucracy's wordplay appears even more pointless in this regards.

Assuming that international opinion will step in to take the Indian side or restrict Pak is also stupid. They couldn't care less about what happens and will play an equal equal game with alacrity.


Getting an approval for IAF strike took us decades. 5 decades to be precise. That too under the "non-military target", "we don't want to escalate" buzzword.

IAF would have said yes for every condition from GoI, for the sake of getting a "Yes".

Given this is sort of "first time", I would give them some slack. However good lessons have been learnt.


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