MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Prem Kumar
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Mar 2019 09:25

The "minute by minute" dogfight description, with fancy maneuver terms, was circulated in WhatsApp more than a week back. India Today just copy-pasted it.

I seriously doubt its credibility.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2019 09:27

Ditto. It just sounds too unrealistic and too pat to have emerged very quickly.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 09:36

fanne wrote:Sorry if I sound patronizing...but the way we are covering BVR fight is very bookish. Please see below video (from say mark 1:30 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lqKEn3ptoE
The effective range of AIM-120 or R-77 is very less. They only have few second of powered flight (AIM 120- 4 seconds, R-77 8 sec). After that flight, they have high kinetic energy (M 4), which they trade to either gain height (to catch an opponent at a higher altitude) or trade off height to gain more speed/range. 120 Km is all they can travel if they just flew in straight path. At 50 Km they are useless against target that are even moderately fast (by now they are at M1 speed). If the target maneuvers in the opposite direction of speed greater than M1, missile cannot do anything. Plus one can also Jam it.
I highly doubt TSPAF fired missile at 50 Km distance. Even a WW2 era fighter can out maneuver it at that distance (if it EW notified of a BVR lock).
IAF truly misses a potent BVR, Rafael deal should be looked at from this angle.


I think 120km or 100km may be the ballistic range of a amraam.....it will climb to 75000 feet and starts gliding down to max extent possible just to attain the max range it will impact the ground at distance 100km from the launchers own ground position and the launch may be some idealized 40,000 feet Mach1.8 type speed.

realistically, as you said in 2nd line, against a fighter @ 50km it has no chance.

things start getting realistic inside the 25km mark....rest are more like warning and preventive shots

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 09:41

as this chart shows, faster the enemy a/c is, he can easily escape...as did the foxbats....the engagement zone becomes lot smaller.

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2019 09:46

What you guys are looking for is the NEZ. The bubble in which the combination of missile seeker & aero performance is theoretically unbeatable. Theoretically.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 09:49

the Pak AIM9M and AIM9L are almost useless vs the R73 equipped planes who will get more shooting chances. hence they must have entirely shifted to amraams on the f-solah wingtip rails

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 09:52

one can see how our Akash covers 95% of the use cases. we need 10 more regiments asap.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Mar 2019 09:56

If you had heard the conversation of thier Pilot Hassan on Paki fora, you woyuld have known he was a very boastful and emotional person deviod of mathematical and logical thinking, he is exactly the kind of guy who have launched all his Amraam's and claimed a SU-30, which was widely belived by the Paki Awam.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Sid » 08 Mar 2019 10:15

At this point of time there is too much psyops in play, and it’s getting tiring reading all this speculation from both sides.

Media should seriously stop posting these nonsense “inside source” engagement details. Stick to what is being officially being reported.

Let’s consolidate what we “really know”, and close this thread.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 08 Mar 2019 10:20

Sid, there will be more information from the Indian side leaked via folks like Som, and Aroor. That's been the record so far. Former reports almost verbatim, latter is too Bollywood but still some info will emerge.

Just parse what is logical, and disregard the rest.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2019 10:32

Sid, let us continue to keep this thread open. In addition to what Karan said above, when new info comes in...it is good to discuss. That India Today article I posted has now turned out to be a fake. But would have never known that, if it was not posted here and we discussed it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sajaym » 08 Mar 2019 10:37

Rakesh wrote:9.58 AM: India sounds an alert and sends out a message to the Pakistani fighters asking them to go back.
9.59 AM: As per protocol, India sounds second alert and sends another message asking the Pakistani jets to go back.


This is scary if true :eek: . Our forces lost two precious minutes while trying to play Sanskari. The Pakis never play fair or by the book, people in our forces are aware of this from past experience. Still why this Alok Nath-ness?!!

Sumeet wrote: Imagine when S-400 is deployed there along with advanced Akash and MR SAM. TSP won't be able to fly CAP anywhere near it's borders :)


This is the best solution. Deploy SAMs in Kashmir and put them on full auto...the moment even a Paki paper rocket crosses the LOC...SHOOT IT DOWN. No more Sanskariness :evil:

Sid wrote:Let’s consolidate what we “really know”, and close this thread.

Agree
Last edited by sajaym on 08 Mar 2019 11:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VikramS » 08 Mar 2019 10:53

Shameek wrote:
naird wrote:What does this even mean ? Doesnt make sense


Usually, just detecting an aircraft on radar doesn’t mean having a ‘firing solution’. In order to have a firing solution, you need accurate azimuth, elevation and range/velocity data. Unlike ground radars, aircraft radars aren’t stationary. Also our aircraft were performing evasive maneuvers to break lock from F-16s which may have made it difficult. We also don't know if there was any electronic interference or jamming. Even IRSTs can’t provide firing solutions on their own, they need ‘range’ data which comes from the Laser range finder which are relatively short range.



Folks:

What happened to the AAMRAMs tells you why there was no firing solution.

The TSPAF decided to launch at extreme end of the engagement envelope and with very low probability of a hit.

The IAF pilots did not want to shoot to waste their rounds, if the probability of success is low.

"Firing Solution" is based on that probability of success: can the weapon be delivered on target and not just fired for the sake of it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 10:56

perhaps the idea was to make the iaf scatter and increase the security of their intruder formation to get out safe.

they wanted to send a defiant message and they did.

next move is more in our hands.

defiance can be put down if multiple paf a/c get shot down over their urban areas or in our territory where it cannot be hidden.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2019 11:01

They had no intention of striking anything. Their only ruse was to get IAF fighters to cross the LoC and shoot them down. With that, they could show their populace that they bested the IAF. Already the PAF pilot - Hassan Siddiqui - is being compared to MM Alam of the 65 Indo - Pak War. Ironic really, because a number of Alam’s kills were proved to be fake.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby MeshaVishwas » 08 Mar 2019 11:19

Rakesh wrote:They had no intention of striking anything. Their only ruse was to get IAF fighters to cross the LoC and shoot them down. With that, they could show their populace that they bested the IAF. Already the PAF pilot - Hassan Siddiqui - is being compared to MM Alam of the 65 Indo - Pak War. Ironic really, because a number of Alam’s kills were proved to be fake.

:rotfl:
The 5 Second Alam legend.
Still chuckle when I read about him.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sajaym » 08 Mar 2019 11:19

Nobody seems to have commented on whether the Garuds could've conducted a quick slash and dash into the crash site to recover the Wingco before he got mobbed by autograph seekers. I mean, a Rudra with miniguns on both side doors could've barged in to say a hello atleast. That kind of a rain of bullets would've kept the Paki villagers indoors the next time a downed Indian pilot lands on their goats. :lol: But seriously, we really need a proper AC-130 gunship for showering more love on the Paki awaam on occasions like this.
Last edited by sajaym on 08 Mar 2019 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Amber G. » 08 Mar 2019 11:20

Amber G. wrote:From twitter - Amb. Zafar Hilaly, Former Pakistani envoy to Italy says that Pakistan has captured a pilot of Israeli Air Force flying Indian aircraft that violated territorial integrity of Pakistan and was shot down by Pakistani jets. Israel appealed to US and Modi accepted humiliating retreat.
....)

If you have not seen it, and are curious this is one of the video (1 minute) in the link (Make sure there is nothing spill-able while you watch)https://twitter.com/AsianDef/status/1103877907930177537

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby disha » 08 Mar 2019 12:11

Amber G. wrote:
Amber G. wrote:From twitter - Amb. Zafar Hilaly, Former Pakistani envoy to Italy says that Pakistan has captured a pilot of Israeli Air Force flying Indian aircraft that violated territorial integrity of Pakistan and was shot down by Pakistani jets. Israel appealed to US and Modi accepted humiliating retreat.
....)

If you have not seen it, and are curious this is one of the video (1 minute) in the link (Make sure there is nothing spill-able while you watch)https://twitter.com/AsianDef/status/1103877907930177537


Thanks for the warning AmberG, still I spilled myself on the floor and started rolling on the floor laughing.

Not about the delusions which Bakistani has and how Zafar feeds into that delusions to de-escalate. But on the photo that was shown in the background.

It was this discredited image!

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JayS » 08 Mar 2019 12:23

sajaym wrote:Nobody seems to have commented on whether the Garuds could've conducted a quick slash and dash into the crash site to recover the Wingco before he got mobbed by autograph seekers. I mean, a Rudra with miniguns on both side doors could've barged in to say a hello atleast. That kind of a rain of bullets would've kept the Paki villagers indoors the next time a downed Indian pilot lands on their goats. :lol: But seriously, we really need a proper AC-130 gunship for showering more love on the Paki awaam on occasions like this.

So far among all the chatter, this is the most Bollywood-esque thing I have seen. There, I commented on it.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby JayS » 08 Mar 2019 12:28

Rakesh wrote:India-Pakistan dogfight: A minute-by-minute account of Abhinandan's air battle
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-07

9:52 AM: Indian Air Force's Netra surveillance drone and the Northern Air Command detect 10 F-16s taking off three airbases in Pakistan. The F-16s fly in three separate formations. They merge into a single formation after entering Paksitan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

In the very first statement it says "Northern Air Command"...!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Kashi » 08 Mar 2019 12:49

It also says Netra surveillance drone.

All this while I was under the impression that it was DRDO Netra AEW&CS system.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 08 Mar 2019 13:06

The Mystery of the Missing F-16


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dipak » 08 Mar 2019 13:13

The author seems either a paki, or quite influenced by the paki parlance

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 08 Mar 2019 13:37

dipak wrote:The author seems either a paki, or quite influenced by the paki parlance

He sounds like BRF Shiv who is definitely not what you describe.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby wig » 08 Mar 2019 14:00

Austin wrote:The Mystery of the Missing F-16

this video is from Shiv

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 08 Mar 2019 14:02

1) whats paki parlance in the vid?? i dont see any such thing 2) I am wondering will a Mig 21 which is on interception mission carry a drop tank? maybe the gurus can clarify?? however a F 16 which is doing some deception, flying from a distant bases , merging and then escaping may feel the need to carry a drop tank? 3) if i am not wrong, the Mig 21 wreckage was available for public viewing for quite a few days... though it seems there was much alacrity in carrying off the other wreckage.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Mar 2019 14:37

the air battle story in India Today is not credible. the timings are not sensible, the manoeuvres being described seem inappropriate, and lots of little bits and pieces don't add up. this is sadly true for most of the accounts doing the rounds - all sound plausible until you see something that doesn't make sense. We will have to wait for a BRF review in 20 years time to know what really happened!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 08 Mar 2019 14:50

Alacrity in carting off parts of the wreckage may be due to mundane reasons like availability of roads and trucks. I wouldn't read too much into it. In fact I am surprised they didn't cart off the smouldering Mig-21 remains more quickly.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chola » 08 Mar 2019 14:52

Aditya_V wrote:If you had heard the conversation of thier Pilot Hassan on Paki fora, you woyuld have known he was a very boastful and emotional person deviod of mathematical and logical thinking, he is exactly the kind of guy who have launched all his Amraam's and claimed a SU-30, which was widely belived by the Paki Awam.


The whole TSP is boastful and ridiculous. This narrative of Hassan and Noman had uplifted the idiots tbh amidst their tanking economy and chitty standing in the world.

You should watch the fools celebrating after their imaginary SU-30 kill.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BteCVr-QB7g

A pity we didn't target and drop a 2000lb bomb on this hangar of their 14 Sqd at Kamra, practically minutes away from the LOC, right after this. They were giving out names early. Should have made them pay for this stupidity.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 08 Mar 2019 15:07

Need few such drops on Madrasa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D42Ly2TtrwI

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dipak » 08 Mar 2019 15:34

Folks, sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the India Today article posted above, a minute-by-minute account of PAF-IAF encounter where it mentions of 'drones' and 'northern command' etc.

Of course, the video about the missing F-16 is from Doc sahib.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby jamwal » 08 Mar 2019 15:42

Netra is also name of a small quad rotor drone designed by a small startup ( in 2012) with assistance of DRDO. It seemed pathbreaking at that time. Don't know if it was ever inducted.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby esommuk » 08 Mar 2019 16:04

We have all been talking in conjectures what could be done in the future conflicts and future scenarios. It is better to decouple the weapons/platforms development from domestic military tactics or operations and be treated as any other commercial entity to compete in the open market with autonomy to choose the innovation route. Close to my home in Herts. MBDA has the Meteor factory ... RAF is just another customer like the Armée de l'Air. The high TRLs are achieved by way of close collaboration with different Universities and industrial research. For instance MBDA and others routinely tap into UK/EU universities and often takes the route of commercialisation of such research. A small postgraduate university like Cranfield has a strong lab to production line interface in many areas.

https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/press/news- ... e-accuracy

Pakistan has a double dipping strategy .... both China and Turkey when it comes to modernisation. Turkish aerospace industry is fairly decent given the fact that they are embedded in the EU and US aerospace industries and University research and Turkey uses Western platforms. PAF's fleet of F16s benefit from such association plus they have some decent missiles sourced from the West.

What we need is a muscular policy of engagement and aggression militarily cutting the crap of diplomacy and our internal democratic good practices. So far our posturing has only been defensive or mildly offensive if we consider bombing of the Balakot Potemkin village!


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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bharadwaj » 08 Mar 2019 17:47

Pakistan broke LoC rules; India went by book
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 312074.cms

A much clearer picture... Pakis took the first shot and by the time the su-30 and mirages had recovered from defensive action the f-16s had turned tail. The su-30s reportedly had lock on the f-16s.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Pratyush » 08 Mar 2019 17:54

But who killed the mig 21. Why won't the TSP credit that kill to PAF.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Mar 2019 17:55

From someone who has a grand total of 17 posts on BRF:
Sid wrote:
Let’s consolidate what we “really know”, and close this thread.
Agree

Just recording here. I wonder if ppl here remember what "4SPDA" means?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 08 Mar 2019 21:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bishwa » 08 Mar 2019 17:56

Rakesh wrote:India-Pakistan dogfight: A minute-by-minute account of Abhinandan's air battle
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-07

10:08 AM[/b][/color]: Wing Commander Abhinandan fires his R73 missile and successfully hits the F-16, bringing it down. Abhinandan performs a dangerous manoeuvre called "high-g barrel roll". He is in the range of Pakistani surface to air artillery and surface to air missiles (SAM). Either a SAM or air artillery hits the MiG-21. Abhinandan ejects.


I read this same thing in whatsapp a few days before it appeared in India Today ;-)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2019 18:28

Bharadwaj wrote:Pakistan broke LoC rules; India went by book
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 312074.cms

A much clearer picture... Pakis took the first shot and by the time the su-30 and mirages had recovered from defensive action the f-16s had turned tail. The su-30s reportedly had lock on the f-16s.

This ties in with what I mentioned earlier. They had no intention of striking anything. This was a pure bait job by the PAF. The goal was to lure fighters across the LoC and then shoot them down. They wanted the prize of the big kahuna - the Su-30MKI - which they never got. In turn, they lost a twin seater F-16 and one of the IAF's MiG-21 Bison was lost.

The PAF - like their PA and PN counterparts - have proved that they can come up with a half baked tactical plan, but have no strategic outlook. They were hoping for a shoot down to reclaim their lost honour - IAF Mirage 2000s entering their airspace, while they were helpless to stop it.


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